Home Group Discussion-Ironman Arizona 2010

IMAZ Taper - < 20 days left!!!

So I figured I'd kick start another thread here...anyone enjoying the taper? I've read a lot in the forums how people can go stir crazy reducing workload. Am I the only one that is going crazy having to continue what feels like a difficult work load? I know that may be a sign of over training, but man, I'm exhausted and I would love even more rest then what we're getting. And this is coming from a guy that could only get in 3 hours of RR this past weekend because of tire problems. Maybe that was a blessing in disguise.

Hope everyone is having an awesome week - < 20 days to go!!!!</p>

Adam

Comments

  • I took Monday off entirely, but had a great track w/o this morning! Definitely could use more rest, but it will come through the week.
  • @paul - you are the man. Read your volume post from the other thread...just gnarly! Good for you. You're going to tear it up!
  • I lifted weights for 30 mins this morning, then started on the run...felt a little sluggish but shook it off on the track. Did 2 x 880 in 3:23 then 3:16. Then 4 x 440 in 96 secs, then 8 x 220 in 43 secs. Definitely can't compare to young men anymore, but at least the speed was going up as I progressed. Last week was the only 3 x 1 mile for this cycle. I'm sharpening now.
  • If you track your PMC in WKO+, you should find things reached their peak on Sunday and Monday: TSS and CTL reach their max points at that time. You SHOULD feel exhausted now. Rest AS MUCH AS YOU WANT this week - its better for you than any single workout you'll do this week.

  • @ Al - God bless you, but I don't speak power language, although I have an equation for it: PMC + WKO + TSS + CTL = WTF! But I catch your drift. I'm sleeping in on Thu and Sat too. I've gotten more rest this cycle than I did for IMCDA. We'll see how it plays out. BTW, are you a retired Army doc?
  • Yeah, Paul, I was worried about all the acronyms, but my fingers were getting tired at this point (seriously). CTL = Chronic Training Load, and TSB = Training Stress Balancer, PMC  - Performance Management Chart, Anyway, the idea, as you say, is that an "objective" measure of my pre-IM training load, updated daily based on both the previous 42 days worth of work (CTL) and the previous 7 days (ATL) invariably shows that my heaviest period of work is always the period ending about 20-21 days before the race. And, that my "stress" from both chronic and actue workload reaches its zenith (nadir?) at almost the same time.

  • @adam - lately i have been feeling like "when does this end?" i got a massive headcold that sidelined me for 4 days last week, not really tapering until sunday... so i am still in nutso mode... missed one swim this week, so i guess that helps...can;t wait for the week after IM AZ, after all we have two days of for turkey day!!! and this year i can eat everything on the table!!!!
  • It was all I could do to get out of be this morning for a 1hr run and 1hr swim. I am hoping that my energy will catch up with me next week. I am glad to know that I am not the only one that is feeling run down. Altough, if my wife would stop baking brownies, I would have to worry so much. Keep on chugging along!
  • hahahaha...those damn brownies!

    @al, that actually made a lot of sense. thanks for the feedback. I haven't run since last Thursday because of my missed RR this past weekend (tire problem from my other post). So today I ran, and it was absolutely bliss. I mean, my legs felt fresh and it was the best i've felt on a run in a long time, particularly since it was after an hour swim. I can finally see that just cutting back and finally cooling down will eventually help.

    @scott @chuck - this just shows that we're not the only ones feeling this way and the feeling is shared. I'm guessing if we didn't feel this way, we may not have trained hard enough in the past 20 weeks. I got my bike back last night (tuned up, gator skins, cleaned, new chain, etc...), and for the first time in a while, was excited to get on it. it carried over into my swim/run today. maybe doing something nice for the bike, or yourself, or skipping a workout is just what we need! on my ride last night, i left the HR monitor at home and just rode. first time in a while I enjoyed it. felt good! maybe even aside from rest, trying to do these workouts for fun may pump some excitement back into this so we don't feel so down. just a thought!
  • So, call me stupid but I've tried to find out the reason why the long run is capped at 2.5 hrs but I can't seem to find out? I'm a slow runner so it will take me 4.5 to 5 hrs most likely to do the Marathon at IM AZ - so wouldn't it make sense to train upto say 20 miles regardless of what time that takes me? sorry for being dumb!
  • Posted By Ellen Charnley on 04 Nov 2010 11:11 AM
    So, call me stupid but I've tried to find out the reason why the long run is capped at 2.5 hrs but I can't seem to find out? I'm a slow runner so it will take me 4.5 to 5 hrs most likely to do the Marathon at IM AZ - so wouldn't it make sense to train upto say 20 miles regardless of what time that takes me? sorry for being dumb!


    Theory - Received wisdom over the past decade or so is that (a) running longer than 2.5 hours puts so much stress on the body, both structurally and endocrinologically, that the time needed for recovery, which may be 2-5 days, eats into the time needed for continued effective training; and (b) coaches and athletes have discovered that runners do just as well on 2.5 hours as they did on the old standard of 20 miles or 3 hours whichever is more.

    Personal experience - In the past ten years, I have done 17 IM marathons and 5 stand along marathons. My times for IMs have been in the 4-5 hour range, with stand alones about 35 minutes faster. At first, I would run for three hours at least once or twice before a race. Over the years, I have gradually reduced that, and now do 2 runs of 2:15 to 2:25 before a race. My times have consistently gotten FASTER as I've done this, down to 4:0X at this point.

    Bottom line, there is a lot of experience in EN with runners going 10-12 minute miles who have super races and have "only" done 2.5 hour runs in training. DO&#160;NOT&#160;WORRY. Many IMs have been won by pros who NEVER&#160;ran more than 17-20 miles EVER in their lives before the actual race. (E.g., recent Kona winners like Craig Alexander and Mirinda Carfrae.) The EN plan gives you more than enough running strength and endurance to finish the IM&#160;marathon respectably, assuming you don't kill yourself on the bike!

  • Ellen - you are too close to IMAZ to try a longer run at this point. Follow Al's advice and don't worry. But for more insight on this very issue, I would highly recommend you read the short article at http://triathlon.competitor.com/2010/07/training/determining-your-long-training-run-for-any-triathlon-distance_7237 After IMAZ, you can then use your results to determine which distance training philosophy works best for YOU.
  • Thanks Al and Paul - that makes a lot of sense. Having never actually run a marathon before, I was a little skeptical but I will follow the advice for sure!
  • I've switched over to focusing on really getting a solid sleep schedule going.  8 to 9hrs vs the 6 to 8 that i had been doing.  it feels great and allows me to get solid taper workouts in.  also, washing hands frequently and keeping on top of my nutrition to avoid getting sick.

    i am swimming more than the taper recommends now, just because it helps me to get my technique honed for the race, but I am not tiring myself out.

    also reading thru forums/wikis more to catch onto any helpful tips.

    that's about it for me!

    good luck to everyone!

    GH

  • Posted By Paul Hough on 04 Nov 2010 12:26 PM

    ...read the short article at http://triathlon.competitor.com/2010/07/training/determining-your-long-training-run-for-any-triathlon-distance_7237...

    From that article: “It’s to hit that second run already beat up and to force yourself physically and mentally to focus and run with good form,” Wheeler explains. “You’re not going to feel as bad as the last 10K in the Ironman, but it’s pretty close. It’s also to help force your stomach to get used taking in food, digesting food and working out basically all day long.”

    I think the EN plans accomplish the same thing with less time and distance through the use of harder efforts early in the long run, and then finishing at what is (at that point in the run) a harder effort. Works just as well as the split run, which I have used in the past. The KEY THING, though, is to run no longer/farther than the distance/time which will allow you to keep up with the training plan. I sometimes end up running LESS than the max RnP suggest for that very reason, with no effect on the key outcome - race performance. As long as it's over about 2:10-15, better too little than too much is my philosophy.

  • @Ellen - I have also never run a marathon, but I trust the plan and have no question I will be fine. My longest run has been 19.3 miles

    So I stubbed my pinky toe and it swelled up and bruised. I'm taking a couple days off of running to let it heal. I do not want to screw up my whole race to get a couple of runs in. I did do the hour run with the TP intervals before I stubbed it. I'm still riding and it seems OK. I'm doing the long bike tomorrow and as long as it still feels OK will do the 2.5 hour brick Saturday. Anyone think this is a bad plan?
  • @ Al - there are 2 different philosophies discussed in that article. The other philosophy rejects the QT2 approach and requires minimum mileage targets regardless of speed to ensure that people will be able to go the distance. That adviced was especially aimed at newbies. You have plenty of marathons under the belt and proven legs. The EN philosophy recognizes the risk in going longer than 2.5 hours, while others think that risk is necessary. I'm not taking sides on this, just pointing out that there are competing approaches.
  • still in RR mode as my original schedule was compiled with the wrong date by a week! did a RR swim today, 84 minutes, which was 7 minutes faster than the last time i did it a few weeks ago! long run tomorrow, 6 hr bike saturday, then the taper begins. shaking off a head cold, i am slightly asthmatic post colds, so this is killing me, off to the doc tomorrow for some inhalers...
  • @scott - good luck in your RR! hope you feel better

    @Terry - hope that pinky heels up

    I've run 3 marathons - i'm of the opinion that you can get by running 15-16 miles, but only if you do tempo runs where you're really pushing yourself. I think long slow runs at 15 miles will leave you hurting. The EN philosophy is that your race day is the easiest day, so hopefully those last few miles don't hurt. I know in my 3 marathons, I hit the wall twice, and the one I did not, I negative split and felt awesome. I think most of it depends on nutrition and rest leading up to the event. if you can manage that, no wall will stop you!
  • terry: let it heal until you can run with no problem.  you might have some pain if you squeeze the toe with your hand, but if it doesn't hurt when you ride or run, then it will heal by race time.  in the meantime, sleep.

    my two cents on the run:  this race prep my longest run was 2:17, i tested my race pace startegy up to mile 14 and when satisfied that my sensations and nutrition were perfect, i easily picked it up for the remaining 3miles, for a 16.9miler.  in other words, the first 14 miles were very easy for me as a consequence of following the ENway.  prior to that, i just did fast 'short' runs, my longest being 2:07 for 16.6 miles.  my fastest long run being a 13.1miler at 1:27.  the only problem i have found with the EN way is that the intensity makes it hard to take in nutrition as you would on race day, but that's what the RR's are for.  i also include one more long run at race pace to practice nutrition intake and to psychologically convince myself that i can go the target race pace for close to 18miles. 

    most people prefer the longer way of training because it doesn't involve as much pain and suffering.  either way works, as long as the method is done right.

    rest up!

    GH

     

     

     

  • @ Scott - A Cold is a sure sign your body is at the precipice of over-training. Assuming you feel you HAVE to do the RR, make sure the next day is totally off. The next week should also consist of as much rest as you can tolerate. My theory is the cold viruses are always out there attacking us. Cold Symptoms are a sign we can't effectively fight back because our systems are overloaded or drained by something else, like lack of sleep, too much physical activity, or other stressors. The cold symptoms are the body's way of making one stop and get the down time it needs to re-group and restore healthy functioning.

  • thanks al! I took 4 days of down time when i had the cold, actually slept for 18 hours one day!!! i have a asthmatic tendency post cold, which is what i am dealing with now...
  • Greetings all,

    This week has been crazy, did get my RR#2 in last Friday before going out of town hence the lack of report.

    To sum it up, started cold, I mean really cold, got a flat 3 hours in and it took me 30 minuted to change because my fingers were so cold......then at about 70 miles I was stooped by a shefiff for 15 minutes due to mountain lion sighting.......not kidding.  Anywho, 5 and a half hours cold and wind about 90 miles but did not make the run.  Am okay with that.

    Have been in denial about head cold all week, then read Al's wisdom about cold and healing, so took today OFF. And now it is time for work and I am panicking about missing brick or long run......it's official I am losing it!

    But we are all here getting racer ready together in spirit; wishing everyone a happy weekend.

    Hope we all stay healthy and no more crashes......and flat karma should be good for us now too!

    Cheers

    Stacy

  • @ Stacy - there are a few panthers in Florida, but all I see on my rides are deer, turkeys, turtles, squirrels and snakes. I go wide for rattlers and water moccasins but I gunned it last weekend and managed to run over a good sized black snake at full speed on my bike...thump-thump! Something deep inside goes bonkers when I see a snake!

    Our first serious cold snap hit today and this morning the temperature was 58! Tomorrow's low is supposed to be 45 with a high of 67. It will warm back up to the 80s next week, but I'm going to have to wait until noon tomorrow so I can ride in the 60s instead of the 50s. Yes, I am a wuss. Get better and enjoy the taper.
  •  @Paul: thanks for the well wishes.......you may not like the cold weather but a wuss you are not.....as I have said before just READING your posts related to training exhausts me, am excited for you to blow it out of the water next weekend!

    And I think I would hurl if I ran over a snake.......

  • I nearly ran over two tarantulas last weekend here in Las Vegas....they were crossing the road - I nearly came off my bike in fright!
  • @Paul - I feel your FL cold snap pain. I've been in Orlando the last few days and came here for a conference specifically so I could have another week of warm, outdoor training before heading back to North Dakota. I didn't bring anything long sleeve to train in. Of course, it's been raining all week and starting yesterday it was near record low temps and very windy. I had to wear a hoodie on the long ride yesterday. It sucked. Can't believe my luck. Oh well. The pinky toe is almost normal now so I'll do the 90 minute run today and call it a week.
  • @Terry - this weekend is similar to a normal January cold snap. They only last 3-4 days, but this is very early to be this cold. I ran 3 miles and swam 3,000 yards in the morning while waiting for the temps to climb. Went out for the 3 hour ride at 1pm and it was 59 when I left and 61 when I came back...and it was damn windy. I had a great ride, but all I could think about was the poor folks doing IMFL today. The weather will be great next weekend and they happen to get a cold windy weekend. Total bummer.

    Two weeks to go! I rode on my race wheels today (HED 3 front and HED Jet Disc rear) so I could break in my new tires. The wind caught that tri-spoke a couple of times pretty good. After the ride, I took the bike for a race tune-up. TBT pick-up for the Tampa Bay area is Tuesday so it's getting very real.
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