Home› OutSeason January 2011

The World is Not Flat

Jenn EdwardsJenn Edwards
in OutSeason January 2011

Hey JOS Peeps!

I discovered the most amazing thing today.. the world is not flat!  No, really.. it isn’t!  And now I need help wrapping my head around how to train as my first official EN run was an EPIC fail. 

Like a good little Girl Scout I had my vDot all dialed in.  A November marathon plus three 5K tests on a track in the pre-OS and I was feeling pretty confident in the validity of my number: 39.71.  So, off I went with my tidy vDot paces written on the back of my hand and my Garmin “lap” button all greased up and ready for action. 

The run unfolded thusly:

  • 1 – Warm-up.  Hey, I’m warm… even though it is snoraining.  Woo hoo!  Success! 
  • 2 – 0.5 miles at Z4 (8:16 pace), result = 3:57 (7:55 pace), HR 152 BPM
  • 3 – 0.5 miles at Z4 (8:16 pace), result = 4:23 (8:48 pace), HR 155 BPM (first of the biggish hills in the middle of this interval)
  • 4 – 1.0 miles at Z4 (8:16 pace), result = 8:38 (8:38 pace), HR 151 BPM (two big ups in this segment, hrumph!)  Epic, epic fail. 
  • 5 – 3.0 miles at Z3 (8:27 pace), result = More epic fail.  Was only able to muster a sub Z1 pace. Yes, I was cranky.  Ug.

So, if I’m looking at this correctly, my HR was pretty consistent but the actual pace was all over the board. And not in a good way. 

My questions are:

  • Is this addressed somewhere in the WIKI that I haven’t found yet?  Maybe someone can just point me to it and save us all a lot of time… 
  • What does everyone else do?  Commit to the track?  Treadmill?  Find a flat patch somewhere?
  • If not, how do you/we structure the target paces of a given workout in a hilly world?  Perhaps we go more on heart rate or perceived effort?  Very un EN-like, but again… the world just ain’t flat!
  • And, thinking waaaay on down the line here, how do we in EN-Land set up our race plans on a hilly course?

Ideas so far:

  • Drive to a flat(er) piece of the planet.
  • Just go to the track and HTFU.
  • Go by HR.  Kind of hard to keep track of but I bet I’d get a feel for it after the post mortem on a few runs.
  • Dreadmill.
  • Combo .There is a track just over a mile from my house.  I’d have to run through a kind of shady part of town, but I could conceivably run there from my house, do the intervals and run back. Then I could add my Z3 in my (much safer) ‘hood.

Thanks so much for any direction you can provide. 

 

Comments

  • John StarkJohn Stark

    Jen:

    Couple of quick questions:

     - What is a "hill" where you live?  It is relative as a hill in Indiana or Chicago is different than where I live in NorCal?  Is it 500 feet climb for 1 mile?  Or 50 feet for 1 mile?  Just curious.

     - When you were doing all your run testing over the past month or so, were you doing the Pre-OS or similar type of bike intervals at that time as well?  OS bike intervals will definitely impact someones run.

     - Flat is always best  for your run intervals.  

    I may be way off here, but my initial gut feeling is you are just being too hard on yourself.  We just completed the first week of OS and it wasn't easy.  And as we go through the next 20 weeks some of us will be very strong and some of us just holding on.  Then the tables turn and the strong folks just hang on and the others are killing it.  Just part of the game.

     

  • dhalligandhalligan

    Jenn,

    None of the runs from my house are flat.  I just go out and do what you did.  If my interval takes place during a hill, I just go with it and run as close to the prescribed pace as possible.  If you're running uphill, to maintain your pace, you'll have to exert more energy than if on a flat stetch.  I don't try and hit the pace when I'm going up hill because I know I will over exert myself.  However, if I'm going downhill, I will try to run faster than the pace to 'make up' for it.

    The bottom line is, if you're running a hilly route, it will make you stronger, faster, fitter.  Don't sweat today's numbers.  If you're going to run this route often, you know have a benchmark.

    Dave

  • NortonNorton
    What the other doodes said. When I'm trying to hit a certain pace on a hilly route I often have to use RPE as a better guide; this perception has been honed by plenty of time spent a pace on flat terrain.
  • Michele CellaiMichele Cellai
    Jenn- Here is what peace I have made with the paces and terrain.

    If I am really concerned about the pace being correct- then I head to a flat area and run all my intervals there. Since the road is basically flat it is also my go-to place when I need to worry about ice/snow. But it is boring to run back and forth on the same 1.25 mile road stretch. Plus I start to wonder if someone is looking out their window and wondering why I keep running back and forth in front of their home.

    Most of the time I either try to make the ups and downs fairly even for balance, like starting the interval at the base of the hill and finishing it at the end of the downhill, using a similar technique as Dave- don't kill myself on the uphill and really push the downhill. I will also ignore the actual rest interval if I know that adding another minute will get me to a flat area that is better for the interval.

    Today I was scheduled for 0.5, 1, and1 at TP. Since it is early in the OS, I am still trying to get the correct feel for the proper pace, so I am trying to go in flat areas. What I really ended up with was: 0.7, 1, 0.85. I knew my last interval would be a slight but steady incline and that I would want to quit early. So I did a little longer on the first interval. Sometimes it is better to take what the terrain is giving you.

    You will find what is best for you, just be patient and give it time.
  • KitbooKitboo
    None of the roads around my house are flat either. When I did my first OS, I went to a flat trail or track and did my intervals just so I could remember or memorize what it felt like to go tempo or interval pace. With HR, the increase can be delayed for up to 60 secs after the interval has started. I have pretty good idea now what running those intervals should feel like so that when I run trails or around my hilly roads or snowshoe I just use my perceived exertion as the pace will be must slower.
  • mgraffeomgraffeo
    Only thing to add is that if you have WKO, it calculates an equivalent pace for what you would have been running if there were no hills called NGP. The process requires a little finess, with things such as elevation and such, but it can give you a pretty good sense of what you did after the fact, which can help to calibrate your RPE.

    I run most all of my hills on perceived effort, not pace.
  • chapdinkins11chapdinkins11

     Hey Jen, I am brand new EN guy, but I realized the world was full of hills, even here in FL...as a big guy, hills really hurt.  I wanted to add that I have tried adjusting my cadence and breathing and leaning forward and swinging my arms and everything else to make hills easier and I have had to accept that toting my frame up a hill is harder than running down it.  Gravity.  What helped me look past this was realizing that everyone has to run the same hill in any giving race and and they all slow down on the ups and speed up on the downs.  I would look more at your averages which really seems pretty consistent.  Good luck.  Chap.

  • Jenn EdwardsJenn Edwards

    Ahhhhh... excellent information! THANK YOU so much everyone!  I think I can get my head around this.  I'll actually be incorporating a few bits from several of the different suggestions provided. 

    @ Mike:  I totally did not know about the NGP.  I checked out the second 0.5 interval and it had my NGP pace at 7:21 which is actually quite a bit faster than target.  Kind of validated my huffing and puffing although I know that still means I missed the target on the workout.

    @ Michele:  So funny about the neighbors wondering why you’re running back and forth.  I do hill repeats just down the street and I wonder if the folks that live at the top of that hill wonder the same thing!

    @ John:  Excellent question, not sure how to answer it.  I suppose “big” is all relative (ha!) but I pasted an elevation profile below. 

    Lots and lots learned today... thanks again! 



  • Paul HoughPaul Hough
    Move to Tampa....it's pretty flat here, but every once in a while I have to muster up the energy to leap a 6" high speed bump! And if you must have hills, there are plenty that will kick your butt in Dade City, FL and Clermont, FL.

    I take the 5K TTs with a grain of salt unless the come from an actual race. There is a significant difference between the 5K time I can generate in a race and on my own (typically 1 to 2 mins) and I'm much more likely to "Fail" on my own. It is only when I throw down the cash, put on the number, and have actual competition that I can find my true vDot. But regardless, you get a quality workout whenever you attempt the 5K TT.
  • John StarkJohn Stark

     @Jen - How did you get the green check mark on the thread?  Never seen that before.

    And I spaced on NGP.  Mike nailed that.  Be sure in WKO to go to Edit/Corrections/Fix Elevation Profile Using GPS.  Then check the pace.  Doesn't always change things, but that is what I was taught to do.

  • Jenn EdwardsJenn Edwards

    @ ;John: I originally had the status of my thread as a "Not Resolved" as I was trying to indicate I had a question.  Then I changed it to "Resolved" .  I think that's what generated the check mark.  Thanks again! 

  • atasicatasic

     @Jenn, you got some good guidance above. I will just emphasize what John mentioned, I think you are best served finding a flat section to perform any kind of T-pace running. It is all about maintaining intensity that induces physiological adaptations in Z4, that being the primary objective. When you expose yourself to a gradient, uphill you are most likely to exceed Z4 intensity even though the pace slows down below, than on a downhill you are most likely below Z4, so your workout is getting a shape of I-pace interval workout, rather than steady T-pace. That leads to achieving a different objective, usually with more recovery cost.

    This same analogy applies to running into the wind and downwind. 

    Rely on RPE more in the above conditions. I have mangled up more workouts trying to blindly stick to planned pace at all cost........would end up burning up way before I have achieved any kind of objective or I complete it and than the ceiling is spinning for two days after.

    I have very little flats around me. Most of the time, I will head to the track just to stay flat and "cancel" the wind effect, which you can never do entirely.

    Hope this helps. You are not alone in this, we have all done it, I keep doing it and still trying to learn not to do it. It is easier said than done.

  • stevekwstevekw

    @Jenn, I'm in the same scenario...all hills, all the time...and drive to the local track for vDOT tests...and RPE when training...Heart Rate generally lags too far on the short stuff 

    ...I've also found that for the _really_ fast intervals, I have a short flat section of road to do those on, since I've pulled muscles on too-fast downhills trying to keep RPE and/or Heart Rate up...so I try not to do that anymore

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