WEEK 8 - FTP testing thread
Sorry if this is jumping the gun since it’s not REALLY week 8 yet…but reading the week 7 brick thread I know I’m not the only person who did this…
My plan called for 2x20’(4’) today. About ¾ of the way through the first interval I decided I was feeling pretty good and that I’d cut the recovery interval to 2’ and call it an FTP test. I realize I started a little soft as a result but I was pretty tired by the end with a calf starting to cramp up and so think it was a good and valid test.
Overall NP for the 42’ test interval was 225 watts. In 5-minute increments:
Interval 1 (NP 223): 215, 219, 224, 232
Interval 2 (NP 231): 224, 228, 228, 237
My new FTP of 225 is up from 211 at the beginning of the OS – a 6.6% improvement. Given the improvements some others have shown I’m not sure if that is so great, but I’ve gone from 3.4 to 3.6 w/kg (my weight has not changed materially) and I’m pretty happy with the progress.
I’d also add that I got off the bike and went outside for the 45 minute brick run after the impromptu test...so perhaps a bit too much gas left in the tank. But boy, I really doubt I could have cranked it much harder on that bike. Maybe a watt or two. But not 5 and most certainly not 10.
Thanks everyone for the motivation, I look forward to hearing about everybody’s testing exploits in the week to come!!
Cheers,
Matt
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Comments
thanks for starting this. i have some Questions as we move into the testing mode. Curious as to what Matt's prior FTP was(computing 212)? I tested at 200 which i felt was a valid test. i have been doing all of my intervals including the 2x15s trying to hold a number beginning with 2 for all of my intervals which tends to have my efforts come out at 199-204 over the last few weeks. I am wondering what i should be trying for on the test...thinking is that i should be trying to hold high 2teens which would probably generate a low teens number which would be the same 6% Matt saw, is that ambitious? or not enough?
second question, i have to take off next week as i will be in Vermont with my kids skiing, i will be doing the runs, but no biking, should i do my test this Saturday morning before i leave so it is at the end of week 7 or should i come back and do it on a week's rest on the testing date?
Scott,
You tested at 200 in week 1 and have been able to hold 199-204 for your FT intervals. How comfortable have those felt? Difficult to hold, somewhat difficult, easy like this isn't work?
I suggest doing your first 20' like you've been doing your other intervals, then assess what you think you could hold for the second 20'
If you feel frisky, shoot for 210 and if you're still holding that at the 10' mark, keep bumping it up each minute until you are slumped over on your handlebars , heaving and gasping for air, arms and legs shaking uncontrollably and you will have confirmed you had nothing left.
For the 2nd question, I'd skip Thurs bike wko, full day off and test on Friday, then have fun skiing with no worries about testing on tired ski legs. Good luck.
Dave
The tougher part of the question is what do you want to shoot for in the test. You're going to have to find a number you think you can hold. I've been playing with my watts the past couple weeks getting a feel for what different gears and cadence feel like. Trying to hit shorter intervals at higher watts and see how the legs feel. In lieu of having that background I think Halligan has some solid advice. If you push too hard on that first interval you'll blow your second interval. I agree the 10watt bump is pretty safe to start and adjust from there.
I would add that if this is your first OS you might be surprised at the jump you see. My first OS was last year and my first real introduction to training with power. I went from 224 in my first test to 244 in week 8 (note: this is not a recommendation!). Good luck on your test. Obviously a bunch of are excited to see the new digits on our test next week!!!
@Scott -
I'll defer to others on "when to test". But nice to have it out of the way before you go. Part of my logic for the impromptu test was that I just found out I have to go to London for a couple of days next week, so my schedule will be all screwed up and my body will be out of sorts for sure. I balanced that against being "tapered" for the test and thought "I'm feeling good, so let's get it DONE".
As for what number to shoot for, I really like Dave's advice: "I suggest doing your first 20' like you've been doing your other intervals, then assess what you think you could hold for the second 20'". That's pretty well what I did, since I didn't actually turn my test into a test until the 15' mark of the first interval.
That said, once I committed to the 2' rest and finishing the workout as a test, I had a few numbers in mind based on my experience over the past several weeks:
- I tested at 211 in week 1. It was my first ride with power and I didn't look at the power numbers until the test was done
- Over the past 7 weeks I have gone from doing my intervals at about 0.99-1.02 IF to doing them at 1.05-1.09. Practically speaking, I like to see 220 on the computer when I'm doing the intervals
- I end up with my z3 intervals at about 0.9-0.95...I like to see ~200 on the computer for those
- When I did my 2x20'(4') last week I managed 1.034 and 1.058, and the last 5 minutes of that second interval was something like 230 watts
The last point was the critical one in my head as I did the test. I knew that 230 was probably out of reach for the final number, but I also knew that I should see 230 on the screen for a good portion of the time. It turns out my second interval in 5-minute chunks was 224/228/228/237, but for sure I was seeing a lot of 230 in those blocks that ended up being 228. That's also how I know it was a valid test...I just couldn't get higher than 228 without "knowing" I'd blow up. Of course you could argue that 237 in the last 5' means that can't be true, but I think that 237 came from my head and not my legs...I'm not kidding, that was an insane 5 minutes.
So what does that mean for you? Well, if you "seeing 200-205" is equivalent to me "seeing 220" during intervals, then perhaps:
- Do what Dave said...treat the first interval as a "normal interval", go for 200-205. But amp it up to 210-215 (or even 220) for the last 5' of the first interval
- For the second interval, don't settle for less than 205-210 in the first 5'. Then shoot for 215-220 for the next 10 mins, then completely empty the tank for the last 5
- If you're feeling pretty good 10' into the second interval, ramp up another 5 watts
The above numbers are aligned to about what I think my test would have looked like if my starting point was 200 and I had ~5-7% improvement. And it would seem that is a reasonable thought, given that the IF of our regular workout intervals is very similar, running about 1.03-1.05 ish.
Can't wait to hear how it goes!!
Cheers,
Matt
Very happy. I had a 10 watt bump for the first 8 weeks. 180-190.
Last year (my 2nd OS with power) I barely managed to eek out 11 watts for the entire 20 week OS (173-184). I was disappointed because my first OS I gained nearly 40% (yes- 131-181 over 16 weeks).
This year I came into OS more rested. I had continued to ride, but without power.
In season, I adjust my FTP by my bins in WKO+.
Testing indoors just kills my mojo. My solution this season has been very helpful. I pay close attention to what gear I am using and what cadence is comfortable for my FTP intervals. Then when I test, I start just a bit easier and continuously increase my effort based on how I feel. I have the LYC covered so I can only see time, sometimes speed. I don't psych myself out or hold myself back.
N=1
so glad i bought a power meter!!!!
Scott, purely in the interest of ensuring proper protocol, and not to deflate your strong achievement in any way ... FTP from this 2 x 20' (2') test is the Normalized Power for the ENTIRE 42 minute interval, which includes both the 20' intervals AND the 2' "rest" in between. It's supposed to simulate the true definition of FTP, which is the NP (average power if VI = 1.0) you can sustain for 60 minutes, say during an all out assault on the hour speed record!
@ Matt & others...
got charged up for this. did my last workout on Thursday night, a bike work out, 2x10 Z4 with a 16 min Z3, was charged up to do this, i generally do better in the morning and a couple of cups of joe, channel surfed and found a great movie, Truth or consequences NM, if you haven't seen it, it is a great flick... definitely thought i got going too hard. but my "one thing" is that some of the pain i have endured in life occurred without an end in sight, and this pain ends in 20 or 40 minutes...so i endured. of course this all now means that my new intervals are going to hurt like hell...
anyone have any suggestions for what my OS FTP target should be at this point???
could never have done this without team EN & the great Jan OS group!!!
A) getting faster
C) learning exactly what 'pushing yourself' means
So, for example, Scott, you saw a 9% improvement in 8 weeks. I have no idea how much of that improvement was A, B, or C. That is what makes it hard to predict future improvement.
What I can tell you is that if you keep doing the work, you'll keep getting faster for the foreseeable future. Probably not at the same rate, especially as you exhaust B and C. But there is always room to improve.
all good points. in my first test, i went too hard, blew up and retested a few days later, so i think i had the pushing myself in place. in the test i really thought i was going to blow up 10 mins, 12, mins, 15 mins, 18 mins into the 2nd interval. keeping my one thing (that this pain WILL end soon) kept me going... my legs were shaking when i got off the bike!!
so, after two tests, i wouldn't say i know totally how to pace the test, but i am getting better. going to be interesting when i move off the drainer and onto the roads, wondering if some people still do their one hour interval rides indoors on the drainer all year round?
the one thing i do know is that my new intervals are going to hurt!!! but then again, i think the old ones did too a short seven weeks ago.
Well no test for me this week, but I am back at it after 3 weeks. Skiing and then two week of not feeling well. I finally felt good this Sunday and almost jumped on the trainer. I'm looking forward to reading the test results.
I started back in week 2 and got 40' in today 2X8' @ .98 (197 watts).
Entire workout (143 watts):
Gordon
Got my non-power test done this morning. I have improved noticeably since the previous test . . . despite tightening up my trainer resistance quite a bit, I was pushing 1-2 gears higher the whole time . . . and although my avg cadence came down from the previous test, it was still 100 avg for this one . . .
. . . but my HR fell through the floor. My avg for my previous test was 159, this one was 139. Got it up into high z4 for last 8-10 minutes, but it took forever to come out of z2 even though I was hammering away. I've been having this issue on and off and have chalked it up to not being well rested.
Question: do I reset my HR zones based on what seems like an anomolous result or still my old zones and keep working/improving?
20' #1: 253w
20' #2: 217w (whoops! wheels came off)
Pnorm=235
I'm not sure what to do with this. If I had kept myself in check on my first set I think I really should have been in the mid-upper 240's based on how some workouts have been going over the last week.
The test is taxing and disruptive to training, so I hate to try and retest. I'm confident that 235 is too low for my current FTP. It looks like 250 is too much. Is it worth guessing? Any thoughts??? I'm sure I'm not the first (or last) person to do this!
Tested today and got a nice, big bump! Went from 173 to 210!
In all fairness, I'm fairly certain that 173 was low to start with. I'm working on rollers and hadn't ridden them a lot going into the OS so at least some of the bump comes from confidence that I won't kill myself by riding off the rollers and into a wall. 21% pure increase - but if you consider I had been pushing 185-195 on a lot of the interval work, call it 190 FTP and it's still a 10% bump. Had some tank left in the gas both times so we'll see what the next round holds.
Interval 1 (in 5 min increments) - 197, 201, 207, 223 - 208 overall
Interval 2 - 202, 209, 213, 232 - 215 overall.
Avg cadence 98 rpm and avg HR 159. Does anyone pay attention to Pw:HR or decoupling on these tests or is that really only a factor for longer, steady state effort?
Work works!
@Scott - GOOD WORK! Woohoo! And you will be 25% higher this year than last? WOOHOO!
As far as "speed" goes, it is all relative. EN protocol is that speed works itself out if you "execute" properly. The key is getting to mile 18 of the run. Bike pace/time can be estimated on your race rehearsals. But it is only an estimate.
On another note, one thing I have learned over the past couple of seasons is that the % gains will diminish as my FT rises. That is why you see few guys @ or over 300 watts. Most are 275 or less. Little peeps even lower. Once this diminishing return happens your w/kg. (body comp) becomes very important to helping you keep increasing speed at the diminishing FT.
Good work everyone! I will be doing my testing later in the week.
John
@Tom, you got a solid advice from Dave. I would not retest at all. You just became a better athlete more in tune with your body and numbers that you put out. Just by providing the estimate of your own, you have done well. Testing is what it is, I would not go into repeating it as the recovery cost you are incurring is not worth it. It will affect your running for the week. Instead go with the numbers you and Dave have concluded is most likely your FTP. 5W up or down makes no difference, but you can sure fine tune it on the go. If you are logging this and tracking:
1. You already know you have earned a bump
2. For TSS purposes it is time you bump your numbers so you stop taking extra credit for the work and stop distorting your TSS, ATL, CTL..........that is if you are tracking it and if it matters to you.
My legs are feeling slugish, heavy, got a huge cramp last night while stretching, don't know what the test will bring.
@Logan - sweet; be proud of that increase. Welcome to the 200w club.
@Allen - Congrats....WoooHooo
I got up early this morning (holiday day off from work). It was cold in the garage, at about 38 degrees, and just spun the pedals for about 15min to get warmed up before starting the real work. I have only tested one time by "free feel" as I call it during my first year with EN. All subsequent tests have been based on what I believe I can do based on what I have been riding, feeling, etc during the weeks leading up to a test. This morning was no different, I pre-set the interval watts on the Coaching Software on the Computrainer at 275w. The wattage load was now set and it is "Do It" or stop pedaling and jump off the bike in a failed test.
1st Interval:
first 10min felt like solid ABP work, and legs and cadence (approx 88rpm) were going well.
Min 10-15, started to get the feeling, this would take some more focus, cadence slowed slightly down to 83rpm.
Last 5min, my mind focused solely on getting to the 2min recovery. Cadence picked bck up to about 87rpms.
Recovery was a very good mental break, legs felt OK as they never actually felt any heavy lactate burn during first interval. More like a long ascent ride and now I was at the crest of a summit. Sucked down a gel and water, and legs felt ready to go again with 30sec of recovery still to go.
2nd Interval:
That recovery break was good; started interval and felt legs just going up ascent ride again, nice and steady cadence again around 87rpm.
Arrived at 12min mark and thoughts began creeping in head about this is now HARD. I've spoken in past, how for me, it is not really a pain issue with these intervals, but more of a discomfort level and being able to tolerate that discomfort for greater and greater durations. This discomfort arrived, at a higher level but still not actually painful and began to sap my mental focus, or more precisely began to require intense focus. I stare at the clock counting on the computer screen with the Coaching Software. "Are you kidding me, only a minute has gone by" , I keep saying to myself with about 6 minutes left in the interval. I have several motivational place cards on the wall near the bike trainer with messages to energize me in times like this. I would just glance over and stare at a message. This was mentally easier than staring at the computer screen watching the seconds on the clock which seemed like they were standing frozen in time. 1minute to go, I give a big "come on" and just get it done.
Test over, I just sit on saddle, head down as I rest on the handle bars, dripping sweat off my head, no longer any sense of the cold air around me; exhausted and legs have that kind of numb twingling feeling. I sit their likely a good 2-3 minutes; almost as I feel I have no energy to dismount.
IT'S DONE ! 42min NP=271w, a bump of 11watts (4% increase). Contributing to this increase in FTP, in my belief in addition to the EN mid-week interval workouts, has been my weekend massive outdoor climbing rides where I ascend between 6K-10K each Saturday or Sunday. And though I savior the new FTP, my mind begins to think ahead about the workouts to follow based on this new FTP. Glory is short lived within Endurance Nation as the WORK continues on. Work Works, Work=Speed!
First let me say - SOLID work everyone - and I am sure we will see more as this thread gets longer this week. Reading this JOS forum always inspires and gives me the mojo to go out and actually do some work. Thanks!!
I woke up feeling really good this morning and having the day off work I decided 'why wait' so I cranked up the FTP mojo and completed the test. Needless to say, I am STOKED with the results.
I started the OS with an FTP of 215 and today's test puts my new FTP at 234!! That's a 19 watt and 9% increase. Yahoo!! The 42 minute normalized power result was 234 watts, with an average cadence of 88, and an average HR of 174.
But like David said, glory is short lived, because I am already thinking (scared) of the pain that the upcoming VO2 work (pushing 280+ watts) is going to cause.
Have a great week everyone!!
Test is done... I'm a sweaty mess...but had to plug the numbers before I hit the shower bc I had a good ride!
42min
work 388
TSS 80.2
NP 157 (a 10watt bump for test one!)
VI 1.02
dist 13.21
HR 175
cad 86
speed 18.4
My method was this, stay in aero for the first 15', then get up and crank it homewith whatever juice I had left and holy cow did that work... I was also consciously breakingthe ride down down into 5 minute segments always trying to bump the watts up a few each segment... which also worked). Here's the breakdown... which is pretty cool IMHO (I wonder what kinda number I would have pulled if I sat up the whole time): 143/152/155/173 144/156/161/178
FTP test done and honestly, I’m a little disappointed. I had really hoped to crack 200W but that will have to wait, I guess.
I'll be doing my test tomorrow (residual catch up from my recent vacation). In the meantime, I'm building mojo reading others' reports.
@ Jenn - If you had a day or two off before the test, then the extra time tacked on in previous workouts shouldn't impact this result, expecially considering your reported near-hurl. Your pre-work in Nov and Dec p[robably did indeed allow you to snag some low hanging FTP fruit prior to starting the actual OS.
@ Becky - you SHOULD be proud about those ten watts. As to position during the test - no harm in sitting uo the whole way, although it probably means you'll then need to sit up when doing you intervals based on the new FTP.
@ Greg - POWERFUL! (Me, I woulda cheated and claimed a 10% boost).
@ David - As a fellow CT user, I'm leery of using the pre-progammed Coaching Software method for the test. I worry not that I will fail and have to end prematurely, but rather that I might leave something on the table. So I go with the Spin Scan for the tests. Given your graphic description of the last 8 minutes of the second interval, it's clear you guestimated well by pre-setting at 275 watts. Way to go!
@ Allen - 16% performance improvement! You're en EN poster boy! Is this test outside or in? And if outside, where?
@ Scott - regarding outside vs inside: I mix the two. I try to keep doing at least one indoor session on the trainer each week, thru the summer and fall. (See article in this month's Inside Triathlon for some radical approaches to year-round indoor training.) But I move my tests to the outside by April or so, on a good stretch of road with a wide shoulder, mostly flat, and no traffic lights. Most people have a higher FTP outdoors than in; I'm not different, and like to see the bump!
So-so performance this evening resulted in a 8 watt gain in my FTP up from 199. Overall thoughts for the past 7 weeks:
Here are the numbers:
First 20' (0:20:02.42):
Duration: 20:02
Work: 248 kJ
TSS: 35.7 (intensity factor 1.034)
Norm Power: 207
VI: 1
Pw:HR: 3.13%
Pa:HR: 3.15%
Distance: 6.243 mi
Second 20' (0:20:00.24):
Duration: 20:00
Work: 248 kJ
TSS: 35.8 (intensity factor 1.036)
Norm Power: 207
VI: 1
Pw:HR: -0.97%
Pa:HR: 1.02%
Distance: 6.33 mi
FTP Test:
Duration: 42:01
Work: 510 kJ
TSS: 73.8 (intensity factor 1.026)
Norm Power: 205
VI: 1.01
Pw:HR: 2.13%
Pa:HR: 1.64%
Distance: 13.03 mi
Next up the 5K-run test on Wednesday. Hoping to break the 20' mark.