fatigue and workouts
So I have two questions that I'll ask now and then explain what I've been doing and how I've been feeling. My post may ramble a bit.
1. Why are my run races so shitty?
2. Is it better to be suffering yet hitting sets at the lower end of my zones (95% vs 100%) because thats all I can give due to fatigue, or is it better to take a little rest, recover, and hit those sets at 100%?
I'm in the advanced Nov OS. I've been hitting most of my workouts fine with a couple exceptions. In Dec I missed a couple rides because I was in Mexico. I've failed a couple sets here and there due to fatigue. Typically speaking Thursdays suck but I survive. Funny thing, the running has been fine for me. I don't want to say its been easy, but I have not failed a single run workout while I have had to stop several rides in the last 12 weeks. (Very odd since nobody has every accused me of being a runner. I really expected the runs to be a struggle, they have not been.)
The primary reason for my question is that I've been hurting on the bike recently plus I've done two 5k's in the last few weeks and essentially flubbed both. One 5k I knew was going to suck, but yesterday I thought I'd do very well and did not do well at all. I am what I consider to be a very new runner with regards to stand-alone run races. (This is my 3rd ever stand-alone run race. two 5k's and one half) All other runs have been at the end of a triathlon. So I have little doubt part of the reason is my lack of experience...but I want to try to figure all this out.
During week 8 I tested and did a 20:18. There is a slight chance the garmin on my footpod was off making my run a little short but I was on a track swapping lanes to pass people. If it was off I'd say it was not off by more than 10-15s...if that. I was really motivated that day and a 20:18 was a PR for me. I'd been around a 21 in week 1. I certainly felt better back then too.
My first 5k was on New Years Eve. That was a Friday and I did not alter my training plan other than to take Saturday off after the race. There was a 5k and 10k at the same time. A couple friends were there and told me I should pace off them as they were doing the 10k and I did the 5k. I knew I was wasted going into this race but I said what the hell. I DIED. Went out in about a 6:05 or so and then just fell apart. I think I ended with a 22. I wasn't upset as I knew my legs were exhausted.
The 5k yesterday was another story. I did the weeks workouts just fine. Hit all the sets during the week with no issue. Got up Saturday ready to hit the bike hard and my legs had nothing. Got in the first 20min interval but flubbed the 2nd one and couldn't seem to recover. I tried to hit the Vo2 stuff and failed the first one (below 105% and simply stopped). It wasn't so much that I felt like burned toast...but my legs were dead the whole way. They had no snap at all. I wasn't winded or even really breathing heavy. I just had nothing. Knowing I had a race the next day I called it quits and didn't even do the 15 min run.
I wake up for the race and feel fine. Again, from an overall body and mind perspective, I feel completely fine. I warmed up and felt fine. Started the run and my first mile was around a 6:30...so I started smarter than I did in the other 5k, but honestly too slow to expect to break 20min. (It was really freaking cold out btw.) But despite the slower start, I faded badly again. There were points where I wanted to walk it felt so bad. I just could not hang. I finished with a 21:09. Not horrible, but almost a full minute what off what I did 4 weeks ago.
So I am left wondering what the problem is. I have no doubt there are multiple components to this...which is why I am seeking a little guidance. Conditions for my test were perfect and I was in shorts. Conditions for the race were bitter cold, a bit icy and I was in full gear...leggings and pants plus coat, hat, gloves, etc. I know I am not rested even after a day off. I also know I am not an experienced runner and don't really know what a well-run 5k feels like. But do those things really equate to a full minute off my best time? The course had some hills, but really not much, in fact it had more downhills where I was really cruising. Other folks doing similar training plans (actually harder) are running average times for them...but my times are off.
Just to be clear...all in all I feel fine. I don't feel or want a week off just so I can run a better 5k in January. I am just looking for a little guidance, maybe a cookie and a pat on the head. I'm not really sure. It isn't like my run times have not improved, they have. But since the start of this Vo2 stuff I honestly feel like I've gone backwards on both the bike and run. (I have not been able to hit an FTP set at 100% of my new FTP since the beginning of this Vo2 stuff). And part of the problem is that a friend of mine who is doing very similar stuff to us just more of it is doing just fine. So how is the Nov OS EN Haus feeling?
Okay...I've rambled on long enough.
Comments
Eric-
I am not professional by any means and will not even try and comment on your bike portion d/t the fact that is my weakest link and really trying to bring my FTP up.
I would like to throw my two cents in quickly on your races. First of all nice vDot for not being much of a runner and I always read your posts and I know you are busting your balls on everything and holding true to the OS plans.
HOWEVER I think the race situation can be corrected easily.......I think you are starting your pace out way to fast from the beginning. I am always jacked at the beginning of a race and when the gun goes off I use to take off like a jack rabbit but come to about mile 2.3 it would really jump on my back.
Bro I swear if you take off at a little slower and build into your race pace and with a 800 or so left just drop the hammer and when you cross that line you have zero left in the tank you will be very happy. So start a little slower than race pace, build into it, and then just drop the hammer!!!!!!!
Best of luck!!
For me, n=1, the tests (races), especially pure-running races, are all about pacing. The EN pacing guidelines have pushed me faster and faster at all distances.
Basically, first 1/4 of the race, pace+30secs, middle 1/2 of the race go your normal "I can go all day long" pace, then the last 1/4 is balls to the wall and hold on for dear life. Those paces are earned by - of course - training and testing, so it can be somewhat cyclical/circular.
In tris and running races, 5k/3.1 (1/1/1) to 10k (1.5/3/1.5) to 13.1 (3/7/3) to 26.2 (6/14/6), have always resulted in better overall times, than hammering from the starting gun. Please note, as of yet, I've not done a standalone marathon.
I actually have crohns disease. A small part of the cause may be due to NSAIDs in highschool. However since my Dx I have not take them. (10+ years.)
I have been on prednisone recently. But wouldn't these impact my training runs?
I see doctors every 3 months or so. Not a physical, but I get blood work and all that.
I've recently been told that on top of everything else this course may have been around .1 long. However...let me ask this...
Is a 6:30 pace really too fast when you think you can and are trying to FINALLY break 20min?
Another thing to ponder:
You said you consider yourself a new runner when it comes to stand alone races but are you a new runner in general? I only say this because you are new to EN and you are doing the Adv plan. My recollection of the the differences between the adv and intermediate is the advanced has more running but about the same bike. Not sure if maybe your body isn't recovering as well as it possibly could because the level of running is too much right now.
To answer #2 - I'd let a WSM chime in who has more experience with the plans over the long haul.
Not to mention running fast in the cold is just plain harder. I wouldn't sweat it, do the workouts as written we are just over halfway done with the OS there will be plenty of time to let it rip say in April/May/June. Keep recovering and stay the course this stuff works
Eric,
I feel like I've had a very solid OS so far. However, the last two Sundays my run has suffered from a heavy fatigue. On both occaisions there were killer FTP/VO2/run workouts the day before that I nailed. I went into each of these runs feeling good. Not so much once I started the TP stuff. It is definitely the VO2 stuff creeping up on me. Just my 2 cents.
Matt
Eric:
I can't offer much perspective on the general fatigue, as that's a question that I ask myself just about daily as a rookie to the OS plan. But I would offer the following long distance race recap, and say that you might have picked a tough day to get a PR ...
Race # 1
Ran in shorts on a flat track
Ran a day after a rest day in training plan that supported a fast run
May have been 10-15 seconds short
Race # 2
Ran in ALL the cold weather gear on a tough day outside, a few hills
Ran a day after you had to cut short a workout because you were cooked
May have been .1 long.
If I was betting, I would put my money on race # 1 being faster than #2. It might have actually been a better run than you seem to be giving yourself credit for.
Since I didn't have much guidance, maybe this is the cookie and pat on the head.
Brian
Your experience is all too common: great start to the OS, tooling along fine, get to VO2 portion and boom!: implosion.
I'll channel Coach P here: stand down for two days, rest hard. Pick up where the schedule says and don't make up the lost workouts.
Back to channeling lil old me: think about stepping back to the intermediate plan. Much better to excel at a less ambitious plan than struggle and blow through the advanced. This may be too bitter a pill to swallow, though. Endurance sport is rife with athletes who think they can do more than they are able in the short run.
+1 on the stand-down idea... I hit all the workouts last week, but am seriously considering a 2-day rest here myself as I feel like I could physically use an extra day... and both separately and by extension, could also use a little longer mental break. Physically, I feel like I have been drilling myself pretty good... I'm making progress but feel like I have a host of little cricks and cracks that aren't really going away and my sleep over the last 2 weeks has been ok... getting the hours, but haven't had a "deep sleep" in awhile...
Tomorrow I plan on riding pretty easy for awhile, getting a good stretch on and hitting the hay early.
Eric-
Like I said I am not a coach but I have been running for 16 long years and have experienced a lot with racing and running. You asked if i thought going out at a 6:30 pace was too fast for someone trying to break 20 minutes. If we weren't in this OS and doing these wonderful workouts and this happened to you my answer for sure would be, "yes" without a doubt and I would tell you to try exactly what I posted before and I bet you would drop a sub 20 and feel strong about it. But with that said we are working hard and a lot of other factor's play into this so like Gilliatt said, let this one ride out and nail it later down the road. I have no doubt you will go sub 20 before this OS is over.
Another thought: diet: are you getting enough protein? Insufficient protein can really derail an endurance athlete's program.
I'm by no means an expert, but thought I would chime in with my recent experience and thoughts. I'm an EN rookie. I had a very similar experience on a New Years 5k. I went out and had an awesome run for my week 8 test, 18:34. I too have been trying to get the 20 min. race monkee off of my back for a while. I thought it would no sweat after the test and even started thinking I would skip over the 19 mark. After all I had all of this time to play with. I also wanted to keep up with the first week of VO2 work with team turkey and didn't change the schedule around. Guess what. I got crushed. Ended up with a very hard run for 20:30 something. A full 2 minutes off of my test.
Afterwards I was a little bummed. My wife helped me put it into perspective a little as she is good at.
1. I have to keep my eyes on the prize. My goal wasn't to crush the local 5k I want to have a solid race in August.
2. Each week we have been pushing ourselves past what we think is reasonable and possible. How many posts were there about week 10 Saturday. It just takes a lot out of you. It is a lot to ask of yourself to set new prs week after week.
3. The last thing is that whether it is the local 5k or whatever other race I tend to put a lot of pressure on myself for time goals. They are usually a stretch. It always tends to bite me in the end. I think this added pressure has had a negative impact on my race times in the past.
The idea of an extra rest day here and there is a good one. Sometimes just from a mental standpoint if nothing else. It would stink to get to the end of the outseaon and be burnt out. I'm betting you would come back stronger.
Keep after it. I always enjoy reading your posts. I feel confident we can both get past the 20 minute mark in a race.
I think you are training just fine, but expecting gains of randomly added races at this phase (and then using those random races as a means of judging your fitness) is not recommended.
Keep up the solid work, rest 110% on Mondays/Fridays...eat well before the Sat rides...sleep well...and I'll wait for you to prove me wrong in week 14!!!
P
I got off the bike after 25 minutes this morning and just said to myself, "you don't have it today". I always seem to get to this point, and then really come back strong for the last couple of weeks.
Anyone else have a similar experience? Just curious...you know, misery loves company!
My questions are:
1. Since last weak 2/15/11 to today I have cumulated 477.5 TSS points
2. TSB on 2/13=32 and today =20
3. ATL- 2/13=42.7, 2/15=46.4, 2/17=57.6, 2/20=51.2 and today = 52.5
4. CTL today is at 40
Besides listening to my body I really want to learn to read and truly understand these numbers.
Yes I feel tired and sore today but nothing out of the unusual as I have all season after a great workout.
Looking at the above numbers is there anything I should be aware of or anything I should be doing?
Thanks