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Camp Survival

JustMikeJustMike
in Group Discussion-Ironman Wisconsin 2012

So, I'm really looking forward to my first EN camp, but it's going to be an epic few days for me. 

I want to take full advantage of the camp so I'm planning on doing the week 14 RR on friday, biking saturday, and then running the course sunday as my long run. 

That seems huge.  I've done a 108 bike/6 run before during my last big day, but I had a recovery day the day after.  Any tips/thoughts on how to survive this kind of camp?

Any other tips from people that have done this camp?  I sure am glad I brought ____ type stuff would be welcome too!

 

Comments

  • manconamancona
    Michael, just stick to your plan and your watts or HR target and you will be fine. You have more than enough fitness to do the whole camp, the only issue will be if you get carried away trying to keep up with others on Friday that you should not try to keep up with.

    Also, treat the hills like you will on race day. If you try to attack them on friday you will likely be in for a tough day on Saturday, but if you take it easy on Friday you will be fine.
  • rah2774rah2774
    thanks, Matt... FWIW, I'm planning on a true RR on Friday since that's on the schedule this weekend meaning a super easy ride on Friday before the run - paying all sorts of attention to my watts, etc. Followed by the standard hour run.
    Sat I suspect I'll do more of an ABP ride, perhaps not doing the entire IM course again, maybe stick and loop trying. No run after that one (like a standard Sun).
    The run Sun will depend on my return flight - not sure if I can do the group run on the course, which is too bad... but it is what it is. I will have done the long run at home before heading out Th... and if it's a rest day, woo hoo (I might add a rest day IS on the schedule).
    The RR/race ride is, as they say, the easiest ride you'll do all season. From experiencing it last year, I agree. You're not doing intervals, you're not doing a Z3 ABP ride... you're intentially trying to keep your numbers low... to save your legs. I think you'll be great!
  • Sue ChapmanSue Chapman
    Michael - logistically, bring a fuel belt for the run - it will be warm and "aid stations" (gas stations, memorial union) are miles apart.
  • sotrimesotrime

    Great advice- didn't think of that!  Thanks and see everyone Fri am

  • CarlCarl
    Well we all survived and team EN looks strong!! Coach Rich thanks for your time and dedication to the team!!! Matt as always we appreciate you advise and we all tune in when you write or talk!!

    MATT--Question for you regarding my VI. On both days I really watched my watts and split out my intervals each hour on the bike so I could see where I was. All IF's were below 70% or right on, Tried keeping the watts at 175 or below (70% of my FTP) but could not on some of the hills. I had trouble on some of them just keeping it below 275. I came in a great time on both times and felt descent and was able to run both days off of the bike. I did learn I need a 12/27 or maybe even a 28 to assit in keeping my power down on the hills. Do you think that is the biggest factor with the VI?

    Again it was nice to get to meet everyone and hang out.

    If you didn't see my post on the dash board you need to go to: http://www.myathletelive.com/
    This is a little GPS chip that you wear on your race belt and it allows for your family to track you to the second. It gives your speed, elevation, time and more. I wrote them and asked them if they were going to have a rep at the race expo for us to rent and they wrote back and stated no they will not have a rep this year so you will need to rent one. She also stated if you are renting for only a day then to make sure you let them know where you will be so they can send it to you otherwise it will be sent to your home and not where you are staying.
  • manconamancona
    @Carl - First off, nice work getting the rides and runs done. It was a hot one out there. What was you VI?

    The two biggest factors in VI are definitely coasting and surges in power (i.e. climbing in an ironman type ride). As far as which one impacts VI more, I think that depends on the individual.

    In my personal situation the bigger factor of a high VI during a steady state IM like ride is coasting. The more I coast the higher your VI is going to be. The coasting down the rollers, descents, and into turns all adds up. This is likely because I never go more than 20% over my gear 2 target watts on that course and in fact I barely ever go over 10%, compared to coasting at 100% less effort that target. The only time I go over 10% is on the timber lane climb and it is a pretty short one. Keep in mind I am more of an exception and not the typical age grouping riding that course.

    In most peoples case it is likely the 3 or 4 climbs per loop that impacts the VI the most if you have to go significantly above your target, however the coasting probably adds to the high VI as well.

    Therefore, as Rich always says, simply get the most gears you can (Yes, get the 12-27 or 12-28), get your body weight as low as possible, and get as strong as you can... that is all you can do. Then ride up the hills as easy as you can and make sure to hold your power as long as possible going down.

    FWIW, I consider myself a pretty steady rider but can still improve a little and here are some data points:
    - My typical IMWI ride VI is 1.04 (On saturday I got lazy in the heat and I was at 1.05)
    - My best ever 112 at IMWI is 1.03 once in a race simulation, and on that day I did a 1.02 for one of the loops.
    - For comparison i have gone 1.01 at Muncie 70.3, 1.02 at Racine 70.3, 1.02 at Kona because they are much flatter.

  • Coach RichCoach Rich

    I relearned that IMWI is a very, very technical bike course, in that it PAYS huge to always be thinking and looking ahead. By Day 2 I had learned, was looking ahead for all of the little places where I need to not coast here, stay on the gas there, carry as much speed as I can into this corner then stay on the gas over the next little rise because that goes into a downhill...during which I don't coast because that sets up the next hill, the next corner, etc.

    Over and over and over again. I had a blast. My notes:

    • All due respect to Matt, I don't think you (we) can use his only 10% here, there stuff as a baseline. Matt is probably >4.4w/kg at his FTP right now. I think I'm at about 4.1, hope to be 4.2-3 by race day. The net is that he, and I for that matter, don't come close to "having" to go over FTP on anything. And while my goal watts for the race will be about 224-226w, with an FTP of about 295-305w on race day I can choose to climb pretty much everything at a variety of watts: 245, 255, 265, 285, and still be good.
    • But what I learned is that a focus on what to do on the bigger stuff, takes your focus away from what to do on the thousands of little stuff out there, which I found to be less about what you do on the little hill or rise and much, much more about how you extend that effort over the crest, into the downhill, staying on the gas until you spin out...which isn't very long because the downs aren't long enough, but that speed sets up the next thing and the next thing and the next thing. I think I pointed this out to everyone Saturday night (or Friday?) mostly taking back my guidance to coast above 33-34mph and instead keep that speed up to set up everything else.
    • So the short answer is I agree with Matt's assessment that the source of a high VI for a smart, well geared EN athlete on this course (and I think VI 1.1 is too high for you) is a function of coming off the gas too much after the hill, and probably not so much about working too hard on the hills.
    • I found that I'm not comfortable at all on the tri bike at cadences below about 60-65rpm. At <65rpm I would stand up, which isn't too much of a problem because I can stand at any watts I&#160;want. But rather than ride a 25-12 on race day, I now plan to use the 26-11 -- 26 keeps me at a higher cadence for longer, the 11t will probably by me some speed on the downhills before I spin out, and the cadence gap of the 26-11 isn't really an issue because you're never at any one cadence on the WI course for more than a couple minutes anyway. Beside, Matt's skinny ass rides a 26-11 vs me on a 25-12...sold. </li>
  • CarlCarl

    Coach and Matt-

    • My VI for both days was 1.1 (that hurts) but after looking through the files again and looking to see how much I was at zero watts meaning I must have been coasting it was over 30 minutes. That is a lot of dead time and maybe even free speed I can gain back. 
    • I am looking into a 12-27 and if my bike (components) will support it even a 12-28 for race day. That will be taken care of this week.
    • Weight wise I am at 152 and race goal is 145. Don't think going much below that is going to benefit me. Current FTP is 247.
    • My TSS for each day was 240 and that was at .68 percent so going to try my next race rehersal to ride at .70 and see where that places me for TSS points.
  • JustMikeJustMike

    I had a sort of similar experience to Carl with the high VI, just worse, during the Friday RR. 

    I'm a bit bummed by the data in review, but I'm happy that I came away learning a bunch of stuff that I hopefully won't screw up on race day.

    My VI was 1.18.    Here are some thoughs on what happened...

    • I was a bit nieve, and expect to be out there < 6 hours, as all my 100 mile rides thus far have been in that range on my home turf.  Wrong.  

     

    • I was going for .7 IF after the warm up.  I ended up with .66 overall. 
      • I was looking at 3s powr and average power, and hitting lap every 15 min
      • My edge 500 was replaced the thursday I left for madison.  I forgot to turn zero averaging back on, which is probably the biggest reason for the difference.

     

    • I spent something like 83 minutes on the ride between 0-20 Watts.  This was probably 90% of why my VI was so darn high.
      • I coasted way way way too much.
      • Alot of that (30% maybe?) happened while I was riding the stick the first time, very lost, looking at queue sheets, following slower folks, etc.
      • As a flat lander, I had no idea how scary those down hills would be!  I was scared to death!  I know I let off the gas when I could have pedaled, largely out of fear.

     

    • I did exceed my FTP very briefly, climbing.  I was very careful to try not to.  
      • I found myself pedaling about 30-40 rpms at slightly less than FTP a few times.  This was very hard on my legs... 
        • My feeling is that my legs would have been happier if i'd have taken the hit on power and kept my cadence at better than 60, but that's a wild guess.
        • I was thinking "don't go over 4th gear..." and doing my best not to, but at some point the bike stops going forward.
      • Said grinding happened at 34/25.  I'd like to try again with a 12-27 and see what happens

     

    • I ran pretty well off the bike Friday, doing 6 miles (3 miles e+30, 3 miles e pace with 30 step walks) as planned.  I could have done more, but I was glad I didn't have to, it was hot! 
      • This reenforces the idea that the VI was caused by coasting and not spiking watts on hills.  I'm sure I gave up lots of speed, but if this were IMWI I'd have likely finished. 

     

    • Saturday, I redeemed myself a bit. 
      • Even with Friday on my legs, I worked to stay on the gas over the hills after the advice given in the Friday debrief. 
      • I was much more confident on the hills every time I rode them.
      • I still didn't have my zero average thing fixed, but I brought the overall IF up to .67
      • Brought the VI down to 1.12
      • I was about 1 Mph faster on a few less average Watts
      • I ran 3 miles successfully in 95+ degree heat after riding 70

    Clearly I have lots to learn about riding a course like this.  This is easily the most technical bike course I've ever ridden.  That said, I got a great education on it this weekend, and I'm really glad I'm not riding it for the first time on race day.  I'm planning on riding the course one more time after MOWS before the taper.  Hopefully I can get the VI even lower next time.

  • Sue ChapmanSue Chapman
    The hills in So. Wisconsin are all that I know. Even though I have power, I'm still not all that connected with the data. I simply approach hills as I was taught ... don't be aggressive (especially on the lower portions where you set-up the climb - or you pay for it later), get downshifted and let the bike do as much work for you as possible, stay seated and relaxed, breath as hard as needed to push oxygen through my body (you can usually hear me coming by my breathing), keep the pedals moving, and balance cadence with avoiding pushing too hard. If I follow all of the above, yes, watts will climb but they WON'T spike. I ride with an 11-28 and always wish there was one more gear. sigh.
  • manconamancona
    @Carl and Michael - Race Simulations and camp are all about learning for your race. You guys both did an awesome job of very quickly figuring out what you can do to improve and you will have MUCH better races because of it.
  • Coach RichCoach Rich

    Just imagine not having power, or having power and not knowing how use it, and/or not having seen the course, and/or not taken on board the lessons about race execution that you've learned here. IMWI will eat. you. up.

    I'm convinced that EN should own this race. The technical bike course and variable weather affecting run pacing are right in our wheelhouse. The well-drilled EN athlete will do very, very, very well relative to their peers...

  • CarlCarl

    Coach-

    The week of Aug 14 I will be in New York at a Peer Fitness symposium for Des Moines Fire.

    No bike but free space and treadmill. Will it be okay or do you recommend doing a high run volume this week. I will be home the following Saturday to get my RR # 2 in. May be a little jet lagged but will get it done.

    Was hoping to join the Secret Double Blind Sided Mafia Iowa Crew for the race rehersal back in Madison but that just is not going to happen.    I think it would benefit me to ride that course one more time and run that ugly marathon route again.  Just to burn it in my head.

    Thanks

  • JustMikeJustMike
    @Matt and Rich - Thanks for the perspective and education.

    BTW, it was nice to meet everyone this weekend. Looking forward to seeing you all again on race day, won't be long now.
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