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AG drug testing is upon us

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  • This is no random age grouper. Moats is a multi Kona age group world champion. That's why I keep asking for testing at the front of the field. He is actually a few yrs older than me, yet someone I could not possibly beat. He typically qualifies at IMFL which is one reason I haven't gone back. Due to the cost of testing, I do not believe this is the start of a huge wave, but it is certainly a positive development.   If WTC keeps Moats from racing this year (he was on the participant list last I checked) then my hat is off to them.

    However, what kind of punishment is it when you announce the finding on 18 Oct, then give a 1'yr suspension retroactive to 1 Jan.  Apart from IMFL ( for Moats) the season is over.

  • Kevin Moats! In an out of competition test; my guess is that someone dropped a dime. There's very little love for the guy.
  • Posted By Paul Hough on 18 Oct 2012 09:32 PM

    This is no random age grouper. Moats is a multi Kona age group world champion. That's why I keep asking for testing at the front of the field. He is actually a few yrs older than me, yet someone I could not possibly beat. He typically qualifies at IMFL which is one reason I haven't gone back. Due to the cost of testing, I do not believe this is the start of a huge wave, but it is certainly a positive development.   If WTC keeps Moats from racing this year (he was on the participant list last I checked) then my hat is off to them.



    And he's also a very, very, very well known blatant cheater. Rides with a mirror on his race helmet, I can name about 5 people who've told me, first-hand, how he rode inches off their wheel for an entire race, and much more. Sociopathic levels of dishonesty. 

  • Age groupers pros it doesn't matter. Lifetime bans for first offenses. Maybe that will change the win above all else culture. Honor above self
  • Posted By John Kitchen on 18 Oct 2012 10:37 PM

    Age groupers pros it doesn't matter. Lifetime bans for first offenses. Maybe that will change the win above all else culture. Honor above self



    I completely agree!

  • Posted By Rich Strauss on 18 Oct 2012 09:43 PM
    Posted By Paul Hough on 18 Oct 2012 09:32 PM

    This is no random age grouper. Moats is a multi Kona age group world champion. That's why I keep asking for testing at the front of the field. He is actually a few yrs older than me, yet someone I could not possibly beat. He typically qualifies at IMFL which is one reason I haven't gone back. Due to the cost of testing, I do not believe this is the start of a huge wave, but it is certainly a positive development.   If WTC keeps Moats from racing this year (he was on the participant list last I checked) then my hat is off to them.



    And he's also a very, very, very well known blatant cheater. Rides with a mirror on his race helmet, I can name about 5 people who've told me, first-hand, how he rode inches off their wheel for an entire race, and much more. Sociopathic levels of dishonesty. 



    He's taking a well deserved beating over on ST right now.

  • Posted By Bill Russell on 18 Oct 2012 09:40 PM

    Kevin Moats! In an out of competition test; my guess is that someone dropped a dime. There's very little love for the guy.



    I agree.  Someone definitely tipped them off.  Several sources I would imagine because they wouldn't do it based off one complaint.

    There's some chirping over on ST that Jimmy Riccitello had enough of Moats' shenanigans and pushed the issue with WTC.

  • I had heard there was a mirror guy out there, but didn't know it was Moats. I read the ST threads and he definitely has a reputation. But it isn't promising if WTC will only test after decades of innuendo.
  • what is a mirror used for on the helmet ?
  • I would assume he rides up on a guy's wheels real close and keeps on eye on the motos in the mirror. If he sees a moto coming up he backs off so he doesn't get a penalty and then resumes his work once they pass. Just my guess.

  • Goodness. It hadn't even occurred to me that you could use a mirror to cheat like that. The endless "Low T" adds on cable TV somehow seem like a more obvious way to cheat, but maybe that's cuz I'm a chemist, not a regular person. :-)

    Anyway, I too support testing among the AG crowd. Ideally, it would be a fraction of the podium people (10%?) and just a random handful of other people. To be a little snarky, WTC could match the number of Kona/LV spots with the number of tests. :-)
  • A brief summary of his results: http://athlinks.com/claimworksheet.aspx?search=Athlete&term=kevin moats&showmembers=true On standardized tests one of the best ways to catch a cheater is to look at the bell curve. Same here.
  • Are mirrors illegal? Or just the drafting that can be more easily accomplished by using them? I saw quite a few folks with big ol' round mirrors hanging on their handle bars at Augusta this year. But they weren't really going that fast, much less drafting anyone.
  •  Mirrors aren't illegal. 

    Mirrors are used for safety on the roads in a training / commuting environment, so fine to see them on regular helmets, barends, covered in pink tassles on P's road bike, etc

    But a mirror on a RACING helmet, worn by a guy who's been at the top of his AG for decades...just makes you go hhhmmmmmmmm

  • John,

    I'm not sure I compeletely agree with the lifetime ban for a first offense.  Having said that, in no way do I condone the use of PED's in sport.  In a past lift time I competed in figure skating, 20 years ago and was a possible subject of testing.  While I was never randomly selected the list of over the shelf products that could get you dinged in competition was long and complex.  I was not a pharmacist and typically just stayed away from anything banned even if there were limits involved.    For example if you were sick there were certain decongestants that could not be used, cough drop and syrups. 

    As for things like EPO I don't see that there should be any trace of this and perhaps this should lead to a two tier system of bans, but this will cloud matters.  Basically I don't want to penalize the indidvudal who makes a mistake or is ignorant of the rules with a life time ban.  I have more sympathy for the former than the latter as ignorance of the rules should be no excuse.  I had the little book and took it to the drug store with me.  It also helped to have a mother that was a nurse and dealt with drugs/pharmacology in the operating room.  The people that get me are the individuals who use it outright for performace enhancment. 

    Anyway it's good to see the out of competition testing but I do believe the ban of 1 year especially considering Moats has served most of it already is too short.  It will force him to find a different place to qualify for Kona other than than no big deal.  It would have been nice to see the ban cover at least 1 world chanpionship race and not retroactively.  I'm talking no Kona or Vegas in 2013 for him. 

    Gordon

  • I agree the 1 year retroactive ban is a bit of a joke. But I am glad to see them testing Age Groupers and I hope they will continue to work on modifying the program so that it becomes a bit more of a deterrent. Unfortunately, for someone like this guy who pretty much has already been labeled by the community as a cheat and still seems to sleep at night just fine, I'm not sure this official ban will do much to stop him in the future.
  • A one-year, retroactive ban where he JUST completed Kona sullies the good name of a joke. This is an atrocity. The guy committed a blatant rules violation, that wasn't from 'tainted beef', and gets to race Kona this year (results may or may not be nullified, I don't know), and qualify again next year?!? that's BS, through and through.

    Sorry, I have no tolerance for PED's, whatsoever. 2 year ban, minimum. And this should be a USAT ban, not just a WTC ban...
  • I agree Mike.

    And he should get a big spanking.

  • Posted By William Jenks on 19 Oct 2012 08:
    Anyway, I too support testing among the AG crowd. Ideally, it would be a fraction of the podium people (10%?) and just a random handful of other people. To be a little snarky, WTC could match the number of Kona/LV spots with the number of tests. :-)



    Maybe a surcharge at the time of registration for AG testing. If you choose not to pay, you do not qualify for AG awards or Kona consideration. Then another surcharge for everyone who goes to Kona. Maybe that would indicate WTC is serious about fairness, as well as raise awareness about "innocent" drugs needing TUEs. @ $50, I bet this would generate over half a million dollars from IM races alone.

    The more I think about this, the more I see that athletes themselves have to lead the way. I'm prepared to send a letter and petition to Jimmy Ricotello and Andrew Messick expressing the concerns of athletes. I would seek signatures from here and Slowtwitch, and if a significant number of people are willing to sign, get this issue to them. But it's gotta be hundreds of people to get their attention.

    Or would I just be pissing in the wind (as opposed to a cup)?

  • Looking at the AAA arbitration decision, WTC asked for a 2 year ban, but the panel concluded that because he was prescribed testosterone to treat medical conditions, and that the WTC anti-doping rules on therapeutic use exemptions were less than clear, he had established that he was not significantly negligent. As a result, they reduced the ban. One can quibble with the conclusion that this was really inadvertant. But since the testimony about the circumstances of the positive test was undisputed, I can't say that the AAA decision is wrong.
    Moreover, I don't think a lifetime ban would be appropriate for a 1st offense, given the possibility of innocent violations (like supplements that don't disclose that they contain banned substances). 2 years is probably fair.
  • @ Al,
    Or would I just be pissing in the wind (as opposed to a cup)?

    Now that was funny !

    I don't think it is a waste of time if you believe in it. Ironman makes a lot of dough and they could shell out the bucks to clean house if they wanted to open their wallet and put fourth the effort. The races are run by volunteers. They put forward logistics out of pocket expense then cash in. So the argument of an additional cost is going no where in my world.

    Aside note is , Say Lance is stripped of his titles. The 2nd place guy has already been charged with or caught doping X7 . The point is a very large percent do it. The culture is everywhere biking, football, baseball and body building to movies. Look at Arnold Schwarzenegger he eventually need a heart operation cause he messed up his heart with steroids. Stallone comes to mind with a recent bust having HCG, who looks like that in there 60s ?
  • This guy's penalty is a joke and should be much more harsh.

    That said, I do believe that there are many due process violations in the realm of testing and sanctions in sport. I suspect overly harsh sanctions for first offenses risks us ending up with an officiating body that wields power in a way we would not like and do not belive is fair.

    More testing, of more people, over longer time periods would allow a better chance of catching cheaters and creating stronger incentives among dopers to clean up their act.

    In the AG ranks I have a small streak of "give me a break, we are racing for PB's...if people want to be idiots and do that to their bodies for no reason, why should I care?". But those thoughts are fleeting because (a) qualifying for Kona is a huge deal for IM athletes and you need to be winning your AG inmany cases to do that, and (b) as a "BOFOP" guy who is battling HARD for an extra placing and would love to crack the top 5 at a WTC event, I realize that competing with others is part of what creates motivation to improve, train, and have fun...and if people aren't playing fair then that ought to be dealt with...just like if people are drafting, cutting the course, etc.
  • Seems like a fairly light sentence consider that guy does not make his living doing this. I think a life time ban would be more of deterrent to others potentially doing the same thing. But, perhaps this kind of notoriety will chase this guy out of the sport...
  • I would love to see how many AG'ers failed a drug test if one was administered to everyone at the next IM.

    I bet the number would be alarming and far beyond what most of us think it would be. I bet the T usage in 40+ AG'ers is very high.
  • @ Bob.. I agree..
  • I think with Testosterone you are right on. There are many doctors that think it the fountain of youth for men in there 40's and 50's. My father is Dr and owns a small cosmetic laser center, prior to that he spent 30 years in the ER. He has a lot of friends and colleagues in the "rejuvenation" business that regularly recommend things like Testosterone and Human Growth Hormones.

  • A TUE for "low T"?!? Give me a break. This is a mockery. And Lance's positive for cortisone was really for saddle sores...
  • Posted By Mike Graffeo on 21 Oct 2012 01:56 PM

    A TUE for "low T"?!? Give me a break. This is a mockery. And Lance's positive for cortisone was really for saddle sores...



    The USADA doesn't give TUEs for normal Life-cycle low testosterone (hypogonadism), but only for genetic conditions that lead to it. And the TUE must be renewed annually. The TUE form has a list of acceptable genetic conditions, and I believe most of them have to be verified with extensive lab and/or DNA tests. 

  • @ Dino... ok boy whip it out and pee in the bottle ha ha... family connections...

    I say we all take T , then we will be like everyone else , lets level the playing field !
  • My dope is "recreational sugar" and cake. My times reflect it.... image
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