I just noticed that you have my exact FTP 251, VDOT 50. If you also have my same swim split, I don't even need to worry about pacing on race day, I can just follow you arounf all day
I have a question about Saturday's run. It's supposed to be 40mins, unless you're bricking in which case it's supposed to be 20 mins. Since I like to knock my workouts in the AM ... how long a break do you recommend between bike and run so that the latter is not considered a brick and I can run 40mins vs 20? (I need every run minute I can get...). thanks, and happy resting today!
Kate/Satish, I would throw this up in its own thread as a question. Lots of WSMs (and potentially RnP) will see it there. From my own limited experience, I would think that a few hours and a little nuitrition between the two events would be good enough.
@ Kate/Satish, et al ... Run first! This was Coach R's suggestion as to how to handle this time-efficiently. Running before the Saturday bike seems to work well for him, he treats it as the opportunity to add the volume of a stand-alone run, while gaining the time efficienty of a brick, without the dead feeling of running after biking.
So what's more beneficial at this point in our training season, bricking our Saturday bike/run or not? I was excited because I haven't done a bike and run combo on a training day since September, but I'm getting the feeling that if I stagger them I'll be better off. Is one option necessarily better than the other?
I know we haven't even finished week one of the OS yet, but I'm itching to do some long weekend training! I miss my 10-14 mile saturday runs and long Sunday bikes! I've read how the vets say stick to the schedule, especially in the early season, but it's already testing me. How do I not go crazy on a day off? Any comments would be helpful and thanks for letting me rant Go team!
Jesse, Don't do it. There is probably a WSM who can chime in, but I have done the long slow endurance training for my last 8 IMs and I don't miss it. There will be plenty of time later in the season to ramp up your volume. Enjoy the down time.
Jessie's still young enough to be able to recover quickly, and also probably need frequent activity. Two suggestions:
Please, don't do any long stuff for the next 3-4 weeks, until you see what the OS does to your chronic fatigue level; if you're feeling frisky now, try riding a bike (easily) to the track to do your run intervals. Or bike commute to work.
You probably *will* go nuts taking 2 days off a week. What I do: this afternoon (Friday), I did Saturday's run, so I could give it a good quality MP/HMP effort. The other off day, I weight train.
@ Jesse, days off = stretching, core work, yoga, origami, nap, Tolstoy, analysis of Finnegan's Wake, ... the list of possibilities goes on and on.
As to long training, the coaches have given us permission to get up to a 90 minute run in on Sundays during the OS, so you could get back up to your 10-14 miles depending on how fleet of feet you are.
As to brick/no-brick, lots of different opinions here, I like to split the two workouts by a few hours. For me, that increases the quality of each.
Thanks for the feedback guys. I know it's still very early in the season and I'm trying to be patient. Your suggestions are helpful I'll try to play with my weekly routine so that I can keep compliant with my training plan and still expend a little more energy!
@ Jessie - If you feel you need to burn some more energy and aren't getting enough running, try something that is not so hard on your joints. I often will add some time on the elliptical machine as its motion is similar to running without the pounding one gets from running. And hey -- you can always swim too (just don't tell RnP) and become part of the "I swim during the OS" secret society. In fact, since the OS is so focused on the legs, I'll swim 2x per week in OS with a pull buoy to make it an all upper body session for muscular balance. Being an OF, I've got to "use it or lose it".
forgot to warm-up and jumped right into it. early on, I could tell i was going to have a tough time hitting my target paces (1st half at 6:55 pace and 2nd half at 6:38 pace). ended up averaging 7:08 for the first half and 6:57 for the second half, so i was happy to negative split at least. will give it a few more runs, but then might have to check in with RnP on an adjustment to my paces -- i am pretty sure my 5k pace overestimates my longer distance paces...
also need to invest in a headlamp if i'm going to be running outside thru the winter
came inside and did my bike workout as well, so it's time to rest my legs and spend time with the family for the rest of the day!
Mike, read this WRT your run. (Note, the important stuff is down below Coach P's initial post once people start talking about training paces with a VDOT north of 50).
I did my run first because I wanted to space out the running this weekend. Bike workout will happen later this afternoon. I seem to have done the workout a bit differently than others. I started out with the standard run warmup and ran what was left of the first 20 minutes at mp. Then I ran the second 20 at hmp. I found I had to try not to run too fast during the last 20, which was surprising since my legs were still a bit sore/ tired from Thursday night's 5k tt. My breathing and hr were a bit higher than usual, particularly towards the end but legs felt fine.
Thx Roy. Some very good info in that post. Difficult to say without looking at the upcoming workouts and since this is my first OS, but still seems to me that i'll have some difficulty holding onto my Z2 pace after "hard work". Looking forward to figuring it out and dialing in the right paces for me.
i bricked it. had some issues with my HR strap so i just had to guess & push hard the first two intervals. But fixed and happy for the z3 ones. For the run I just aimed for a negative split - 10 out and 10 back. Completly forgot about the warm up concept for the run - I mean - I just biked, right?. Will see how time and knees fare as far as incorporating those extra 15 mins.
Since around here there's no telling how long the weather will last, I took advantage of it and ran outside. It was perfect for it, not too hot, not too cold and almost no wind... Loved it.
Run was no problem - even when following it closely behind the bike. I felt good, strong and right in the right pace. I know tomorrow will probably be another story - here's hoping the weather holds one more day.
Quick question for the vets, when I run these runs, should my focus be on the pace or the HR? Should I be shooting for x:xx/mi or keep my HR in the appropriate range? I would obviously like to do both, but if I have to lean one way or another, which way should I go?
New to the EN. Great site and folks etc. The philosophy behind the training does work. My OS run test with a Garmin 910 showed: Vdot=37 5K=25:54 (chip time) rounded to 26:00 Mile pace: mile 1= 8:29 mile 2= 8:29 mile 3=8:00 .13= 1:00
Fell behind on the family scheduling so had to get a shorter run than assigned. 33 minutes, 10 w/u, 12 @ 7:20, & 11 @ 6:45. Total of ~4.5. Not quite as hot as the assigned paces, but good enough for today.
@ Scott - Pace for all your intervals in training.
Pay attention to HR if you wear a moniter and you will learn things about how HR relates to RPE, mental state, fatigue, hydration, temp, temperment, etc. All these things will have an effect on HR and can be of some value when racing. But it is not a primary metric for training - secondary at best.
Did the run before the bike today. And since I only had one other workout this week (the VO2max intervals on the bike the other day), I kinda relished the opportunity to let out some steam, because I was gettin' twitchy.
2 mile warmup, 20' @ MP (7:09), 20' @ HMP (6:52), plus 1 mile cooldown. Nailed the MP section, but was a bit slow (7:02) on the HMP portion. My own fault - I only had a cliff bar and a glass of chocolate milk in the morning before heading out, and I didn't bring any fluids with me. So next time I'll either charge up beforehand, or bring gatorade with me. Lesson learned.
Alright alright! Did the Sunday run this morning. Felt pretty good during the hard parts and stretched it out for a bit under 90 minutes. Now it is time to relax and get ready for the coming week. Have a good run everyone!
Just trying to figure out how best to do the Sunday workout. I am doing the beginner plan which calls for
MS: 4 x 800 (2') all @ TP/Z4/Hard. Remainder of run is how you feel, but try to accumulate more HMP/Z3/Mod-Hard time.
Creating a 75 to 90 minute run from this run, where personal and physical bandwidth allows, is recommended. Simply settle into a pace between LRP/Zone 1/Easy and MP/Zone 2/Steady.
I don't think my body is quite ready for 75-90 minutes. So, because I won't be running that long how long should I run and at what pace? I see Z3 and Z1 listed?
So for my run today, I was supposed to do my intervals at 9:47 (based on vdot from WEdnesday test). I ran two loops on a flat course and used the first 1 1/2 loops as gentle warm ups before accelerating for the intervals. Looking at my data afterwards, I did the warm up at around 10min/mile @ HR 138 and the three intervals @ 8:35; 8:22 and 8:25 w/ HR @ 150. Clearly a big disconnect from vdot pace.
I read somewhere that a faster pace needs to be earned by improving vdot first, but I ran by PE and the HR averages correspond closely to my zones. So now I'm deciding if I should beat myself up for going too fast - or congratulate myself for not following the gadgets too closely and going by PE...
Comments
Eric,
I just noticed that you have my exact FTP 251, VDOT 50. If you also have my same swim split, I don't even need to worry about pacing on race day, I can just follow you arounf all day
It's too bad you didn't live closer we could take turns pushing our shelves to new limits!
I have a question about Saturday's run. It's supposed to be 40mins, unless you're bricking in which case it's supposed to be 20 mins. Since I like to knock my workouts in the AM ... how long a break do you recommend between bike and run so that the latter is not considered a brick and I can run 40mins vs 20? (I need every run minute I can get...). thanks, and happy resting today!
@ Kate/Satish, et al ... Run first! This was Coach R's suggestion as to how to handle this time-efficiently. Running before the Saturday bike seems to work well for him, he treats it as the opportunity to add the volume of a stand-alone run, while gaining the time efficienty of a brick, without the dead feeling of running after biking.
I know we haven't even finished week one of the OS yet, but I'm itching to do some long weekend training! I miss my 10-14 mile saturday runs and long Sunday bikes! I've read how the vets say stick to the schedule, especially in the early season, but it's already testing me. How do I not go crazy on a day off? Any comments would be helpful and thanks for letting me rant
Jesse, Don't do it. There is probably a WSM who can chime in, but I have done the long slow endurance training for my last 8 IMs and I don't miss it. There will be plenty of time later in the season to ramp up your volume. Enjoy the down time.
Jessie's still young enough to be able to recover quickly, and also probably need frequent activity. Two suggestions:
As to long training, the coaches have given us permission to get up to a 90 minute run in on Sundays during the OS, so you could get back up to your 10-14 miles depending on how fleet of feet you are.
As to brick/no-brick, lots of different opinions here, I like to split the two workouts by a few hours. For me, that increases the quality of each.
Good luck!
Your suggestions are helpful
@ Jessie - If you feel you need to burn some more energy and aren't getting enough running, try something that is not so hard on your joints. I often will add some time on the elliptical machine as its motion is similar to running without the pounding one gets from running. And hey -- you can always swim too (just don't tell RnP) and become part of the "I swim during the OS" secret society. In fact, since the OS is so focused on the legs, I'll swim 2x per week in OS with a pull buoy to make it an all upper body session for muscular balance. Being an OF, I've got to "use it or lose it".
Bike workout coming later this morning when my 1.5 year old takes a nap!
Got a 35 min run in early this morning: http://connect.garmin.com/activity/239667657
forgot to warm-up and jumped right into it. early on, I could tell i was going to have a tough time hitting my target paces (1st half at 6:55 pace and 2nd half at 6:38 pace). ended up averaging 7:08 for the first half and 6:57 for the second half, so i was happy to negative split at least. will give it a few more runs, but then might have to check in with RnP on an adjustment to my paces -- i am pretty sure my 5k pace overestimates my longer distance paces...
also need to invest in a headlamp if i'm going to be running outside thru the winter
came inside and did my bike workout as well, so it's time to rest my legs and spend time with the family for the rest of the day!
Mike, read this WRT your run. (Note, the important stuff is down below Coach P's initial post once people start talking about training paces with a VDOT north of 50).
http://members.endurancenation.us/Training/TrainingForums/tabid/101/aft/8302/Default.aspx
Thx Roy. Some very good info in that post. Difficult to say without looking at the upcoming workouts and since this is my first OS, but still seems to me that i'll have some difficulty holding onto my Z2 pace after "hard work". Looking forward to figuring it out and dialing in the right paces for me.
i bricked it. had some issues with my HR strap so i just had to guess & push hard the first two intervals.
But fixed and happy for the z3 ones. For the run I just aimed for a negative split - 10 out and 10 back. Completly forgot about the warm up concept for the run - I mean - I just biked, right?. Will see how time and knees fare as far as incorporating those extra 15 mins. 
WEE!
Happy saturday everyone!
Since around here there's no telling how long the weather will last, I took advantage of it and ran outside. It was perfect for it, not too hot, not too cold and almost no wind... Loved it.
Run was no problem - even when following it closely behind the bike. I felt good, strong and right in the right pace. I know tomorrow will probably be another story - here's hoping the weather holds one more day.
Vdot=37
5K=25:54 (chip time) rounded to 26:00
Mile pace:
mile 1= 8:29
mile 2= 8:29
mile 3=8:00
.13= 1:00
@scott - I am not a veteran, but you should let pace be your guide.
VDOT is all based on pace because (this is not original...) fitness is in the muscles.
Set your pace by VDOT, build speed, and your aerobic fitness will come along on its own.
Keep after it everyone!
Pay attention to HR if you wear a moniter and you will learn things about how HR relates to RPE, mental state, fatigue, hydration, temp, temperment, etc. All these things will have an effect on HR and can be of some value when racing. But it is not a primary metric for training - secondary at best.
2 mile warmup, 20' @ MP (7:09), 20' @ HMP (6:52), plus 1 mile cooldown. Nailed the MP section, but was a bit slow (7:02) on the HMP portion. My own fault - I only had a cliff bar and a glass of chocolate milk in the morning before heading out, and I didn't bring any fluids with me. So next time I'll either charge up beforehand, or bring gatorade with me. Lesson learned.
Got in a 20' brick run z2 was good MP on the way out the a good pace but definietly hot on the HMP which was actually above TP.
Given this was a short run I should be fine but need to hold back.
Gordon
MS: 4 x 800 (2') all @ TP/Z4/Hard. Remainder of run is how you feel, but try to accumulate more HMP/Z3/Mod-Hard time.
Creating a 75 to 90 minute run from this run, where personal and physical bandwidth allows, is recommended. Simply settle into a pace between LRP/Zone 1/Easy and MP/Zone 2/Steady.
I don't think my body is quite ready for 75-90 minutes. So, because I won't be running that long how long should I run and at what pace? I see Z3 and Z1 listed?
@Aaron, definitely only do what your body can handle. Get your warm-up in and the MS, then:
1. Got some steam left? The target is 45 minutes for the entire workout (w/u, MS, more time). Run remaining time at Z1.
2. Got lots of steam left? Then finish the 45 minutes at Z1, but push some of that remaining time (whatever you can) at Z3.
3. Got lot and lots of steam left? Stretch the entire workout time to the 75-90 minutes in the notes, at Z1 / Z2.
Good luck!
Edit: Opps, looks like the total time for today should be ~45 minutes, not an hour. Have adjusted the above to reflect that. Sorry
So for my run today, I was supposed to do my intervals at 9:47 (based on vdot from WEdnesday test). I ran two loops on a flat course and used the first 1 1/2 loops as gentle warm ups before accelerating for the intervals. Looking at my data afterwards, I did the warm up at around 10min/mile @ HR 138 and the three intervals @ 8:35; 8:22 and 8:25 w/ HR @ 150. Clearly a big disconnect from vdot pace.
I read somewhere that a faster pace needs to be earned by improving vdot first, but I ran by PE and the HR averages correspond closely to my zones. So now I'm deciding if I should beat myself up for going too fast - or congratulate myself for not following the gadgets too closely and going by PE...