30/30s: How and Why

Al Truscott

A thread for questions, answers and comments on VO2 intervals on the bike. I've transferred Freddy's question here:

"So if the 30/30  VO2 session is 120% of FTP, when do we use the VO2 number from the 5 min test?  Does that come into play at all?   120% is 233 for me, but my VO2 5 min test was 260.  Just don't want to be undertraining."

Your 5 minute test indicates your VO2 # is 133% of your FTP. So, between the two, you have more opportunity to raise your FTP than your VO2. Until you get that FTP up to, say, 215, you won't really benefit much from raising your VO2 number, at least from the persepctive of getting ready to race long-course triathlon. But you'd prtobably be set nicely to blast by your buddies up a hill on a hammerfest ride.

People have written books about these concepts, so the above is a HUGE simplification. I think there's a wiki post which goes into this; I'll try and find it.

Al Truscott

Some resources for 30/30s: http://members.endurancenation.us/R...fault.aspx

Maybe a day late, but I find this crusing the wiki: http://members.endurancenation.us/R...cing+Guide

And, finally, an discussion about "overachieving in the OS", with a link to a forum thread: http://members.endurancenation.us/R...+Intervals

Dino Sarti

Sweet, Al! Question. My plan says 6 x (4 30/30). I have not seen it before or forgot from last year.... What's that in English?

Paul Scholz

Dino you do 4 X 30/30's six times with 2 minutes easy between each 4X30/30

Freddybjax

 Thanks Al.  Appreciate the input.  Makes perfect sense.  Game on.

aarmau

For the beginners it calls for 2 x (5 30/30). At what pace do I ride the remainder of the 60 minutes for the workout? This seems to be a fairly easy workout. I am guessing that things will pick soon and I won't always think that.

Daniela

Posted By Aaron Maurer on 31 Oct 2012 07:56 PM

For the beginners it calls for 2 x (5 30/30). At what pace do I ride the remainder of the 60 minutes for the workout? This seems to be a fairly easy workout. I am guessing that things will pick soon and I won't always think that.

The workout also says "Remainder of any time you have available (if any, not required) @ 80-85%/Zone3/Mod-Hard."  If you don't want to do 80-85% straight for that long, you can break the 80-85% up into intervals as well.  i.e. 2x10' @ 80-85% (2' RI)

aarmau

Thanks! I completely overlooked that whole part of the training. DUH!

Norton

And don't overdo the VO2 work, either through length and/or intensity. The past few OSs have been littered with over-ambitious athletes that tried and failed.

Heed this warning or rue the consequences.

Dino Sarti

Posted By Paul M Scholz on 31 Oct 2012 06:29 PM

Dino you do 4 X 30/30's six times with 2 minutes easy between each 4X30/30

Thanks, Paul. I was afraid that was the answer. My math puts that at 24 30/30s with a break after 4, 8, 12, 16, 20 and 24.  Yikes. 

Al Truscott

 Yup. Its twelve minutes of ON time. But we get a lot of rest. Keeping the 30 s recovery intervals @ 60% of FTP is critical to success. I'll be doing this with a pre programmed CompuTrainer wko, so no opportunity to slack.

cgres123

I'm going in OS in Jan so I'm checking in on you folks. So go on out there get into the training bugs of the plan and fiqure it out so us other OS folks will have a smooth transition.

spabblington

Thanks, Al, for the links! Love improving my knowledge in this stuff! Oddly enough, after testing, by 5min power was almost exactly 120% of my FTP.

And thanks, Bill, for warnings not to overdo it. I found it was VERY tempting to go harder than 120% this morning during my "ON" times. But I had to remember another bit of advice from another thread of "do the work as prescribed - trust the numbers".

Coach Rich

Al,

Thanks for starting this conversation. Right now you guys are seeing some confusion because we made some changes to the OS plans without making the same changes to the power zones calculator with the effect that the system isn't pulling the correct number into your training plans. In addition, many of you aren't fit, yet, so we're seeing a wide gap between your FTP and Vo2 power. 

Short answer for now is:

• Pick a number between your FTP and tested Vo2 for these 30/30's
• That should be a number that you're able to hold consistently across the entire set. 
• As Bill said, don't go dragracing these things. Be smart and always ask yourself "how is what I'm doing today going to affect what I have to do tomorrow."

spabblington

Wha-wha-whaaaaa?? Ok - now I'm confused. (I am often the slow learner of the group and tend to over-analyze things).

So - I assumed that since my 5min VO2 tested at almost exactly 120% of the tested FTP (which is 95% of the power from my 20' test), I do these 30/30's AT the 5min tested number. But the note to pick a number in between FTP and tested VO2 confused me.

Rich - do you mean to do that ONLY IF the 120% FTP does not match the tested VO2? And pick something between the 120% and VO2? Or do you mean we should ALL pick something between our actual, 100% FTP and the tested VO2?

Coach Rich

Posted By Greg Babb on 01 Nov 2012 10:05 AM

Wha-wha-whaaaaa?? Ok - now I'm confused. (I am often the slow learner of the group and tend to over-analyze things).



So - I assumed that since my 5min VO2 tested at almost exactly 120% of the tested FTP (which is 95% of the power from my 20' test), I do these 30/30's AT the 5min tested number. But the note to pick a number in between FTP and tested VO2 confused me.



Rich - do you mean to do that ONLY IF the 120% FTP does not match the tested VO2? And pick something between the 120% and VO2? Or do you mean we should ALL pick something between our actual, 100% FTP and the tested VO2?

Greg, I was making a generalization, as I'm seeing some big differences in FTP and Vo2 power. Since your Vo2 = 120% of FTP, just use that. 

 

steveperx

Good thread. I posted a comment to Freddy's question before I saw this. Here's my take:

For me, I have found that I can complete 30/30s (although I'm struggling with the last few reps) at 120% FTP as my target. However, 5 minutes at 120% FTP is nigh impossible, and I tend to putter out around 3 minutes or so. So, for longer VO2max intervals, I'm looking at <120% FTP, but >105% FTP.

It seems to me that you should start with 120% FTP (if that's higher than 5' power) and see how you feel. Reduce as needed. I'm guessing that for people who have a wide gap between 5' power and 120% FTP, you may ultimately choose something less than 120% FTP and greater than 5' power.

For those with 5' power >> 120% FTP (Like Freddy), I wouldn't even do VO2max work. I'd get started on working my way up to longer FTP intervals.

If your 5' power = 120% FTP, just use that number.

spabblington

Thanks, Rich! Safe travels and have fun in Florida!

Samboddy69

As a Heart Rate person - My plan says to use "Zone 5" for my 30/30 where do I find what my Zone 5 number is?

Kkaufer

Shawn - I'm a HR peep too. Here's the link on how to calculate your zones based on your average HR from Monday's 40' TT:

 

http://members.endurancenation.us/R...reviations

Samboddy69

So it was right in front of my face the whole time Thanks!

steveperx

@Shawn:

Use the Data Tool under the Training tab. Go to "Tests/Tests" page and enter your test results from the HR Test you did on Monday (or whenever you did it). Then go to the "Tests/Zones" page and it should have your Bike HR zones populated.

Kkaufer

@ Shawn - no worries. I only knew because I asked the same question two days ago.

@ Steve - I tried the method you suggested, but since I don't have speed/distance sensor on my bike (yet!), I couldn't populate those fields and without, it wouldn't spit out a number for me.

steveperx

 Speed and distance don't really matter anyway.  You can put in whatever you want.  All you really need is the HR number.

Samboddy69

Unfortunately I don't have access to the data tool. A request was made, but as yet... I'm stuck making my own calculations.

Eric Rueppel

Thanks for sharing those links AL

[Deleted User]

Any suggestion on how/when to ramp up the duration of the VO2 intervals (ex. doing 1'/1', 1.5'/1.5', etc.)? I think the general guidance last year was to increase the length of the intervals by 30 sec each week until you hit 2.5'/2.5'. This year, we have more ON time but more rest, so I'm not sure how well that will work. Would it make sense to increase the length of the intervals more slowly then, say, every two weeks?

Al Truscott

@ Anson, yeah, that's a question I'm wondering about myself. I've looked ahead in the OS workouts, and there seems to be a time when they go to 1 minute, but there is no reference as there was last year to customizing one's 'ON" time. I can understand that adding 300 new OS athletes, the Coaches probably opted for KISS, and those of us who have been through this sort of training pattern before should try not to confuse others who are just getting into this kind of WORK for the first time.

So, if you haven't been through a three molnth cycle of structured cycle interval training before, STOP READING NOW!!! Just follow the plan as written.

I suspect everybody's best interval length is different based on their current roof/ceiling ratio, and the relative make-up of their muscles' ability to handle explosive efforts vs prolonged steady @, say, 0.8IF. My general rule is, if I can easily get through the workout, and I was working @ 120% in each interval, then I probably need a longer interval next go around. Given there's 14 weeks of this, I see no need to get antsy; if I increased by just 10 seconds a week, I'd be at 3 minutes by the end of the OS. I may stick with 30/30 for two weeks, then go up by 15 seconds, and see what happens from there.

Another thing I've done is treat the intervals as ladders, starting with, say 90 second, and decreasing each interval by 5-10 seconds. Or going up and down the ladder, like 30/45/60/75/90/90/75/60/45/30. A steady diet of 30/30s once a week for 14 weeks is as bad as doing the same swim worrkout every day for 3 months - both boring and probably leads to plateauing sooner rather than later.

 

[Deleted User]

I posted about this in the weekly workout thread for the November OS. I looked back at last year's workouts in training peaks, and saw that I started the VO2 sessions with 2' on, 2' off. The 30/30's seem a little too easy to me - I usually don't start feeling it until after one minute or so in. In the test this week, my VO2 tested right at 120% of my FTP, so I am doing them at the same relative intensity as last year. I think I am going to stick with the plan for a couple of weeks, and if still too easy and I'm recovering fine, then ramp up the interval duration.

Bruce Thompson

I'm in the Jan OS so I'm curious to observe how people handle the 30/30s this year.  When the Jan OS starts, I'll probably do 2 weeks of the 30/30s, then try Al's ladder going up and down.   

Kori Martini

One main problem with HR athletes doing 30/30s is that you really aren't going to be able to rely on your HR monitor to guide this effort. It lags too much to get in any sort of appreciable reading in 30seconds. You're into your recovery interval before your HR spikes.

At some point (I thnink), I'll be switching over to the dark side and becoming a power athlete, but until then, I'm doing my intervals as 1 min on/1 min off and kinda disregarding strict HR guidance. I just hold as hard of a pace as I can for 1 min ON time. I *may* be overachieving, but I'd rather not underachieve.