A newbie sidetracking the thread a bit here looking for a little help. I did my bike test last weekend as I transitioned into the bike focus plan. Then used the bike tool to calculate zones off Vo2 and FTP and selected the button to save them in my profile and use in my plans, but I don't see it showing up either in the profile or the plans. Used they same process for run paces and they seem to be showing up fine. What might I be doing wrong?
I don't know why the automatic feature doesn't work, but you can enter them manually if you edit your profile. I'm doing he bike focus too and it is really good. Have fun.
A couple of thoughts on this-- I'm new to EN, but trained with power last year, and here are the most important thing(s) that I learned (Ptap and KK trainer):
1. FTP is pretty self-correcting. If you're over by 10%, you will know because after 8 minutes into a 20 you will be OMG I SEE JESUS and the graph will look like afib--instead of steady effort, you'll have a series of spikes as you use different systems to try to maintain speed. Attempt a second twenty at that pace and you will want to take up golf. If you have it right, you should be able to complete a 2x20 comfortably tired, but with effort left in the tank.
1a. Some days, you just won't have it. An FTP interval at 88 percent instead of 90-95 is not a waste of time. Do not let the perfect be the enemy of the good.
2. SInce we're paying for the EN way, it's best to use their test but it's not the only one. It just has to be repeatable. For example, there's also the critical power number (5min one day, 20-30 min another day, plug into the software and voila: CP number). Very close approx to FTP, as the formula supposedly takes into account your anaerobic input. (In other words, you might be very strong for 30 seconds to a minute, and that will jack your 5 minute power. If your 20 minute is too close to the five minute or too far, the formula accounts for that). The "old" 2x20 is also a good one. Last year, my "test" video was Sufferfest's "The Hunted", which is a five min effort, a 20 min climb, and then a series of sprints with what's left to finish out the hour. I would do the five minutes at or slightly above FTP, and then try to kill the 20 minutes.
3. For a lot of people, their numbers are higher outside, so if you use your outdoor numbers inside, expect as much as a ten percent dropoff. That has always been true with me. If you're going to spend most of your time on the trainer, use the indoor number, and if you are occasionally blessed with good weather, you should expect your indoor numbers to feel too easy.
4. From the analysis point of view, I'd highly recommend golden cheetah. It's free, it has NP and TSS, and it has basically all of the analysis tools that you might want.
Just nailed my first bike power test of the OS - 5' @ 316W and 20' @ 278W. That puts my FTP estimate at 264W which I think might be a little high. I've been working with 255W the last few weeks and shorter FT intervals feel about right. I've always figured my 20' power should be adjusted about 7-8% to get a decent estimate of FTP. Thinking in terms of the 2X20' (2') test, I'm not confident I could have posted 264W NP from that right now but who knows - I'm sure not going to find out I went hard on the 5' VO2 interval but didn't turn myself inside out - more like 97% max effort. I think I'll work the next couple weeks @ 260W FTP and see how it goes.
To Joel's point regarding PE, can someone who has done the new test give a breakdown on how a well executed 5/10/20 test should feel? If you have no idea what your FTP is, cause, oh, you've not even been on your bike for several months or done a 2xanything in over a year :-), what should you expect to feel like during the test? Say breaking down the 5 minute test into 1 minute increments and the 20 min test into 4 minute increments.
@nemo ... I've done the 5/10/20 test during the last 3 OS. Here are my sensory impressions:
5 min. Because the purpose of this part is to tire you out - your VO2 for training purpose is calculated from the NP resulting from the 20 min # - anything between 110 and 130% of your FTP is the target, depending on your roof/ceiling situtation (low roof, lower target). So I usually feel like I can't go any more, but not as if I want to puke.
10 minutes...just keep pedaling, and drink some, but going at as low as 40% of FTP is fair game for me.
20 minutes...the first 2-3 minutes should be a ramp up, feeling as if I'm going 10-15% below the red line. From the on out, it' a question of measured madness. If I can pay attention to TV or video, I'm not working hard enough. I listen to my iPod, but can't really enjoy the songs, I'm just grateful for the distant auditory distraction. Starting the final five minutes, my eyes start to lose focus, starting @ 2-3 minutes to go I may begin counting breaths or pedal strokes or something. And I should feel just about ready to puke at the end. I can free wheel when I'm done, but I doubt I could stand up for if I got off anytime in the 2-3 minutes after.
Nemo - I did that test up above blind to my power...just feeling it out. The 5' was right around that 30/30 intensity. By the end my legs were having a harder time than the rest of me but I wasn't struggling. The 10' recovery I soft pedaled back to an easy steady effort. Looking at my power after the fact I went from noodling up to about 70% FT. I kept holding back knowing I had the tough part still to come. The 20' is like any other time trial - it should feel a little too easy initially but by 5' in you feel the work and by the 10' point you are wondering if you can hold on but not struggling yet. I faded a little from 15-18' - my hands and arms started to get a semi-numb tingle and my quads were turning to bricks. With 90sec left I was able to spike my power and turn myself inside out knowing that I'd be able to stop soon. After it probably took a good 60sec before I could turn the cranks over at all and another couple min to feel like I wasn't going to die.
What I like is that this test was easier to motivate for if not less painful to actually do and my legs weren't toast. The next day I knocked out 3X (5X1') @ 120% with 30" recoveries and 3' between sets with no problem.
For the 5' test I aimed for 1.20 % of my FTP and hit 1.19. Given you have no data this could be a difficult choice 120% of what. I've done the 30/30's up to 2.5 minutes so when with an effort sighly below what I would do for these longer vo2 intervals.
I had a pretty good idea of my FTP going in this year and I've never done the 20' test before. For me I looked at my 230-235 FTP estimate and broke the ride in to 5' intervals. The plan was to ride around FTP for the first 5, then assess, feel good bump up 5 watts, feel decent maintain, feeling poor maybe ease up a fraction. Assess each 5' interval and bump up if possible 5 wattt in each of the first 3 sections. At 15' assess and bump up with 2' left I'm all in just trying to survive the seconds of the last minute.
My 5' intervals for the test were as follows, 233, 243, 249, 266 netting a 237 FTP. Remember that you need to take 95% of the number you get so if you are going for 145 FTP you need 5' intervals around 145, 150, 155, 160. I had a strong day and felt good on test day and the key was not starting too strong. I probably left a couple watts on the table but not many, perhaps I could have squeeed a 239 or 240 but that might be wishful thinking.
Finally when I don't know my FTP I do rely on my HR as well as I know around 164 is my average HR for tests in the past and once it get beyond 175 for my I know the end better be fairly close.
If you have some time maybe just do some pre OS rides 2X6's and 8's for a week or two to feel out the FTP.
120% of FT is fine for a ballpark but IMO, aiming for that specific value in testing misses the point of testing. In a workout we are targeting a specific number because we have an expected result pre-determined. In testing we are trying to get the best result possible, not necessarily confirm what you thought the answer was to begin with. And the point of this 5' VO2 interval (in addition to taking some freshness away from the FT test) is to compare your VO2 estimate to your FT estimate. There is no correct answer but knowing them relative to each other tells you something about where you have room for improvement. Just be careful about setting a target goal to focus on for testing, especially early in the year when things are less well sorted out. Your approach of starting with something you thought was in the ballpark of your FTP and then evaluating along the way and making adjustments is good if you need to have that direct feedback. Otherwise I still stand by covering the display and going for it with whatever you have. You may just surprise yourself.
Thanks again everyone. The info Al and Joel gave comes pretty close to what I was looking for. If someone is new to a PM and has never done an FTP test before, it's more helpful for them to understand how it will FEEL, and not what numbers they should target. Same thing for someone who has taken an extended break and is essentially starting over (me). I don't want to try doing this test based on what I "think" I should hit. I just want to do the test as best I can and let those chips fall where they may. I'm hoping having an idea of what the effort should feel like will help me to not blow up mid test or finish with too much left in the tank.
I'll let you know how it goes in January when I join the OS.
So I tried this new test today. At Joel's suggestion, I put a towel over the watts reading and just went by feel. My new VO2 is EXACTLY 120% of my FTP. Like exactly to the digit. Weird. What does this tell me?
So I tried this new test today. At Joel's suggestion, I put a towel over the watts reading and just went by feel. My new VO2 is EXACTLY 120% of my FTP. Like exactly to the digit. Weird. What does this tell me?
If anything, I'd say it means you did the 5' interval at the appropriate level considering you had the real test still to come. That 5' is meant to be a "blow-out" to help offset the 20' since that 20' is used to estimate your 60' power (the definition of FTP).
I have power tested on the bike 4 times in the past year before EN, and did a 1 x 5 1 x 20 very similar to the EN one, as well as a 2 x 20 later in my season.
What I appreciate about EN is that you EXPLAIN why we do what in testing as well as describe all the different values and information /learning tools we can take from the data outputs. My 1:1 coach only gave me my FTP and ranges from the tests, but never explained to me what other information I could take from it. Work/kg for instance was never discussed, nor was VO2.
I feel like you have provided me with coaching for my brain not just my body. I am learning so much as to why we do what we do, and that has made a huge difference to me.
THANK YOU!
As s side note - to one of the points above, I was powertesting in a "lab" with a computrainer set up that was not mine. . At home and in the "real world" I was training with HR. I did the EN powertest a few weeks ago at home in my basement with Trainer Road and my new CycleOps Power Cal and my 5' value ended up being EXACTLY 120% of my FTP without me aiming for anything,
Hey, folks. I'm late in on this discussion, so apologies. Finished IM Coz, took a couple weeks to rest up, and have been training informally since then leading up to the Jan 7 OS start. Anyway, to the point: Tim asks above "Shouldn't it be NP?" And, I assume he means AP versus NP. I think the answer is it depends on what course is being used because NP is a statistical tool used to create a standardized value since real world terrain varies (some areas more hilly, some areas more flat, etc.). Here in chilly southwest Missouri my training over the winter, at least, will be on the CompuTrainer. I can use the Power Training software to ride a completely flat course. Here the average power should equal the normalized power. The average power should be a more direct measure of what I actually did on the bike whereas the normalized power is a calculation that says "what would I have ridden had the course been flat?" It would be interesting if the numbers were not exactly the same, then I would like to know why? (Might it point to some inherent error in the assumption of how normalized power is calculated?) Okay, I am just thinking out loud. Feel free to chime in.
One last question: The Allen-Coggan book recommends the 20 minute test on a flat road and so does Coach Rich, I think. Last year I bought the Threshold testing disc created by Paul Smeulders for ErgVideo. This test is exactly the same as the Allen-Coggan test with one exception and that is the road is a constant 1% grade rather than flat. Any thoughts about the benefits/drawbacks about having a Computrainer course that is a constant 1% versus completely flat, zero degrees?
Anyway, to the point: Tim asks above "Shouldn't it be NP?" Here in chilly southwest Missouri my training over the winter, at least, will be on the CompuTrainer. I can use the Power Training software to ride a completely flat course. Here the average power should equal the normalized power.
One last question: The Allen-Coggan book recommends the 20 minute test on a flat road and so does Coach Rich, I think. Last year I bought the Threshold testing disc created by Paul Smeulders for ErgVideo. This test is exactly the same as the Allen-Coggan test with one exception and that is the road is a constant 1% grade rather than flat. Any thoughts about the benefits/drawbacks about having a Computrainer course that is a constant 1% versus completely flat, zero degrees?
Your goal is steady power/intensity, not steady speed, so NP should be very close to AP even if you don't test on a flat course. I'm not sure how the CT can simulate an incline aside from increasing resistance slightly. For testing purposes, again, you are trying to achieve a steady consistent output with maybe a slight ramp up to finish if you still havesomething left. So a simulated hill is irrelevant.
I don't think it matters a lot, i know the protocol typically suggests a flat course but Rich also recommends a climb in SoCal with a 6.7 % avg grade for the local athletes.
Generally flat or a mild steady climb is best. Testing or doing FT intervals on an undulating road just adds another layer of complexity to maintain steady power.
Looking ahead at the JOS, I was going to do a short version of the power test just to get a feel for it so I wouldn't spend all my matched in the first 5 min.
For a 5 min test I had the goal in mind to push at last years 120 % FTP and hold on. It went well and gave me something to shoot for and not to over/ under achieve.
Like I said this was not my test but a feel for the up coming test as I used this as a good training day. Next was 10 min with the goal to hold on to my last season FTP.
It was getting ugly at 8 min but held on for the 10. The result was 1 watt under last years FTP. The real test I'm sure will be in the ball park + or - some. For me I'd be happy with that since I gave up biking to train for a marathon for 4 months and have been building bike fitness for the last month prepping for the JOS.
Looked at your trainer road link, Scott, and the sequence is a bit off from what Coach Rich has given us. This may be why you are having trouble figuring out your VO2. The VO2 is the all out 5 minute effort that follows the warm up. I have re-typed the bike test to make it more readable for my eyes:
WU: 10' easy, then 8' (2’-2’-2’-2’) building from 50% FTP to 100% FTP in 2' increments, 2' easy (fine to use estimated FTP if this is your first test).
Test 1 -- Vo2 Max Test: ride 5' at the best (hardest) effort you can sustain for the full 5'. A good target is 120% of your estimated FTP.
Recover 1: 10' easy spin, stretch, recovery.
Calculation: The average watts for the 5' test is your Vo2 power, used for future Vo2 workouts
Test 2 -- Functional Threshold Power (FTP) Test: time trial for 20' at the best (hardest) effort you can sustain for the full 20'.
Recover 2: Minimum 5' easy spinning.
Calculation: Subtract 5% from the average watts of the 20' test and this is your Functional Threshold Power (FTP), used to calculate your power training zones.
From looking at your workout data it seems you didn't do a VO2 Max test as part of this workout. The 5' segment after the first 20' was probably supposed to be a max effort interval, though you rode it at threshold pace instead.
One other thing -- your calculated FTP is 225 watts (based on 0.95 x 237 watts). You could estimate your VO2 max at 270 watts (1.20 x 225 watts) and use this number until you re-test. I tested myself last Thursday and found my actual V02 to be 117% of my FTP, so pretty darn close to what Coach Rich suggested.
I would suggest a re-test though because there is no 5 min all out effort done. That means no insight into your VO2 max, but also that your FTP calculated from the 20' test may be slightly off too.
Agree for a re-test , the JOS starts next week anyway. If you want to you can continue to do your 5k Vdot test this week the you will be ahead of the game for next week. Fill in an interval run just to keep up the leg fitness for a run day.
@Scott---for now use your 5 min clearing effort of 246 for your v02 and 95% of your 20 min effort of 239= 227FTP....
While you rode the clearing effort above your threshold I would agree with others a higher effort 5 min effort is needed, that will most likely net you a higher v02 and the jury is out on the 20 min effort after that..... Train the numbers you have until you retest!
Of course you could always go through the warm up and just do the 5' test. But repeating the whole thing would be a nice way to confirm your 20' test results, as well.
Obviously a newbee here. I saw "Don't do both tests" on the instructions and incorrectly concluded it was talking about the 5 and 20 vs. the power & hr. doh!
I like the preset trainerode (TR) rides and was wondering if there might be an EN bike test template ride already created on TR? or would it be ok to use the same ride template but do the 5 minute at all out effort instead of clearing?
Comments
I'm new to EN, but trained with power last year, and here are the most important thing(s) that I learned (Ptap and KK trainer):
1. FTP is pretty self-correcting. If you're over by 10%, you will know because after 8 minutes into a 20 you will be OMG I SEE JESUS and the graph will look like afib--instead of steady effort, you'll have a series of spikes as you use different systems to try to maintain speed. Attempt a second twenty at that pace and you will want to take up golf. If you have it right, you should be able to complete a 2x20 comfortably tired, but with effort left in the tank.
1a. Some days, you just won't have it. An FTP interval at 88 percent instead of 90-95 is not a waste of time. Do not let the perfect be the enemy of the good.
2. SInce we're paying for the EN way, it's best to use their test but it's not the only one. It just has to be repeatable. For example, there's also the critical power number (5min one day, 20-30 min another day, plug into the software and voila: CP number). Very close approx to FTP, as the formula supposedly takes into account your anaerobic input. (In other words, you might be very strong for 30 seconds to a minute, and that will jack your 5 minute power. If your 20 minute is too close to the five minute or too far, the formula accounts for that). The "old" 2x20 is also a good one. Last year, my "test" video was Sufferfest's "The Hunted", which is a five min effort, a 20 min climb, and then a series of sprints with what's left to finish out the hour. I would do the five minutes at or slightly above FTP, and then try to kill the 20 minutes.
3. For a lot of people, their numbers are higher outside, so if you use your outdoor numbers inside, expect as much as a ten percent dropoff. That has always been true with me. If you're going to spend most of your time on the trainer, use the indoor number, and if you are occasionally blessed with good weather, you should expect your indoor numbers to feel too easy.
4. From the analysis point of view, I'd highly recommend golden cheetah. It's free, it has NP and TSS, and it has basically all of the analysis tools that you might want.
YMMV.
Cheers.
@nemo ... I've done the 5/10/20 test during the last 3 OS. Here are my sensory impressions:
IOW, don't do the test within 2 hours of eating.
What I like is that this test was easier to motivate for if not less painful to actually do and my legs weren't toast. The next day I knocked out 3X (5X1') @ 120% with 30" recoveries and 3' between sets with no problem.
Nemo,
For the 5' test I aimed for 1.20 % of my FTP and hit 1.19. Given you have no data this could be a difficult choice 120% of what. I've done the 30/30's up to 2.5 minutes so when with an effort sighly below what I would do for these longer vo2 intervals.
I had a pretty good idea of my FTP going in this year and I've never done the 20' test before. For me I looked at my 230-235 FTP estimate and broke the ride in to 5' intervals. The plan was to ride around FTP for the first 5, then assess, feel good bump up 5 watts, feel decent maintain, feeling poor maybe ease up a fraction. Assess each 5' interval and bump up if possible 5 wattt in each of the first 3 sections. At 15' assess and bump up with 2' left I'm all in just trying to survive the seconds of the last minute.
My 5' intervals for the test were as follows, 233, 243, 249, 266 netting a 237 FTP. Remember that you need to take 95% of the number you get so if you are going for 145 FTP you need 5' intervals around 145, 150, 155, 160. I had a strong day and felt good on test day and the key was not starting too strong. I probably left a couple watts on the table but not many, perhaps I could have squeeed a 239 or 240 but that might be wishful thinking.
Finally when I don't know my FTP I do rely on my HR as well as I know around 164 is my average HR for tests in the past and once it get beyond 175 for my I know the end better be fairly close.
If you have some time maybe just do some pre OS rides 2X6's and 8's for a week or two to feel out the FTP.
Gordon
I'll let you know how it goes in January when I join the OS.
Personally, I need to have the numbers there. I use the numbers as a whip and generally do more work / go harder than without them.
If anything, I'd say it means you did the 5' interval at the appropriate level considering you had the real test still to come. That 5' is meant to be a "blow-out" to help offset the 20' since that 20' is used to estimate your 60' power (the definition of FTP).
I have power tested on the bike 4 times in the past year before EN, and did a 1 x 5 1 x 20 very similar to the EN one, as well as a 2 x 20 later in my season.
What I appreciate about EN is that you EXPLAIN why we do what in testing as well as describe all the different values and information /learning tools we can take from the data outputs. My 1:1 coach only gave me my FTP and ranges from the tests, but never explained to me what other information I could take from it. Work/kg for instance was never discussed, nor was VO2.
I feel like you have provided me with coaching for my brain not just my body. I am learning so much as to why we do what we do, and that has made a huge difference to me.
THANK YOU!
As s side note - to one of the points above, I was powertesting in a "lab" with a computrainer set up that was not mine. . At home and in the "real world" I was training with HR. I did the EN powertest a few weeks ago at home in my basement with Trainer Road and my new CycleOps Power Cal and my 5' value ended up being EXACTLY 120% of my FTP without me aiming for anything,
Hey, folks. I'm late in on this discussion, so apologies. Finished IM Coz, took a couple weeks to rest up, and have been training informally since then leading up to the Jan 7 OS start. Anyway, to the point: Tim asks above "Shouldn't it be NP?" And, I assume he means AP versus NP. I think the answer is it depends on what course is being used because NP is a statistical tool used to create a standardized value since real world terrain varies (some areas more hilly, some areas more flat, etc.). Here in chilly southwest Missouri my training over the winter, at least, will be on the CompuTrainer. I can use the Power Training software to ride a completely flat course. Here the average power should equal the normalized power. The average power should be a more direct measure of what I actually did on the bike whereas the normalized power is a calculation that says "what would I have ridden had the course been flat?" It would be interesting if the numbers were not exactly the same, then I would like to know why? (Might it point to some inherent error in the assumption of how normalized power is calculated?) Okay, I am just thinking out loud. Feel free to chime in.
One last question: The Allen-Coggan book recommends the 20 minute test on a flat road and so does Coach Rich, I think. Last year I bought the Threshold testing disc created by Paul Smeulders for ErgVideo. This test is exactly the same as the Allen-Coggan test with one exception and that is the road is a constant 1% grade rather than flat. Any thoughts about the benefits/drawbacks about having a Computrainer course that is a constant 1% versus completely flat, zero degrees?
Your goal is steady power/intensity, not steady speed, so NP should be very close to AP even if you don't test on a flat course. I'm not sure how the CT can simulate an incline aside from increasing resistance slightly. For testing purposes, again, you are trying to achieve a steady consistent output with maybe a slight ramp up to finish if you still havesomething left. So a simulated hill is irrelevant.
For a 5 min test I had the goal in mind to push at last years 120 % FTP and hold on. It went well and gave me something to shoot for and not to over/ under achieve.
Like I said this was not my test but a feel for the up coming test as I used this as a good training day. Next was 10 min with the goal to hold on to my last season FTP.
It was getting ugly at 8 min but held on for the 10. The result was 1 watt under last years FTP. The real test I'm sure will be in the ball park + or - some. For me I'd be happy with that since I gave up biking to train for a marathon for 4 months and have been building bike fitness for the last month prepping for the JOS.
I'm a new member and just took a bike test using trainerrode and am not sure how to calculate Vo2 Power for the bike zone calculator.
My ride is here and I calculated FTP of 227. However the calculator also asks for Vo2 Power which I am at a loss for how to determine.... any help?
http://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/141494
Thanks, Scott
WU: 10' easy, then 8' (2’-2’-2’-2’) building from 50% FTP to 100% FTP in 2' increments, 2' easy (fine to use estimated FTP if this is your first test).
Test 1 -- Vo2 Max Test: ride 5' at the best (hardest) effort you can sustain for the full 5'. A good target is 120% of your estimated FTP.
Recover 1: 10' easy spin, stretch, recovery.
Calculation: The average watts for the 5' test is your Vo2 power, used for future Vo2 workouts
Test 2 -- Functional Threshold Power (FTP) Test: time trial for 20' at the best (hardest) effort you can sustain for the full 20'.
Recover 2: Minimum 5' easy spinning.
Calculation: Subtract 5% from the average watts of the 20' test and this is your Functional Threshold Power (FTP), used to calculate your power training zones.
While you rode the clearing effort above your threshold I would agree with others a higher effort 5 min effort is needed, that will most likely net you a higher v02 and the jury is out on the 20 min effort after that..... Train the numbers you have until you retest!
ah ok.... Thanks to all!!
Obviously a newbee here. I saw "Don't do both tests" on the instructions and incorrectly concluded it was talking about the 5 and 20 vs. the power & hr. doh!
I like the preset trainerode (TR) rides and was wondering if there might be an EN bike test template ride already created on TR? or would it be ok to use the same ride template but do the 5 minute at all out effort instead of clearing?
I also just came off a 7 week plan using TR (here if you are a member.. http://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/plans/97). and wanted to do the same test again.
I actually lost an FTP point (228 to 227) and LT increased from 159 to 164.
Nov 14: http://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/104505
Dec 31: http://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/141494
I lost some focus over the holidays and not the improvement I was hoping for...but looking forward to Jan OS!
Scott