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Too Much Exercise Bad for Us Old Guys?

 Well, this will probably generate a great deal of discussion amoungst the interwebs.  I am never sure how I feel when I read these types of cautions, except to wonder if a bit of caution on my end is not the better part of valor.#next_pages_container { width: 5px; hight: 5px; position: absolute; top: -100px; left: -100px; z-index: 2147483647 !important; }

 
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  • I'm not quite there in age yet, but I did take notice of the fact that they all talk about metrics that I find kind of odd, like mileage and pace, when talking about heart risk factors. No mention at all of HR range, or time spent in those HR ranges. However, the article does at least present a relevant piece of information which tends to be lacking in many other articles of the same ilk - that it's only an association (and thus not scientifically obtained data):
    "Critics of the newer research say that the idea that running can harm the heart is based on research showing only an association—meaning that exercise may not be the cause of the problem."


  •  Since my foundational goal in doing triathlons is to discover and demonstrate what's possible as we get older, this and similar studies and opinions will not change my lifestyle.

    I am reassured, though, by the finding that the cut-off is 20-25 miles a week. I've found good results at about 1050 miles a year running, or about 20 miles a week (range 10-35). I do run faster than 7:30 min miles, and I'm glad I am capable of that, and will keep doing it until I can't.

    Some thoughts which I find reassuring when confronted with data like this:

    • I believe my heart was well served by all the swimming I did from ages 11-21, a formative time for the body. I also have good genetics - no heart disease in any of my male ancestors.
    • My goal is not to live longer, but to live well, and triathlon provides mental, social, as well as physical benefits which I will not give up unless it's taken from my "cold, dead hand". Specifically, the end point of mortality in these articles is both crude, and not frightening to me.
    • Where are the studies on cycling, swimming, or triathlon in general? Are there limitations to volume or effort level which I should be concerned about in the other two disciplines, or the sport in general? Runners are a separate breed, IMO, and I'm not one of them.
    • As a physician, I have had numerous "informed consent" discussion with patients prior to surgery. I note the possibility of death, which is weighed against the benefit of the surgery, which is usually being done not as life saving, but as life enhancing. No one has ever said, Hmm, that's too high a risk, I don't think I'll have the surgery (those folks have probably self-selected out before that point).Point is, humans assess and analyze risk not from a purely econometric perspective, weighing coolly risks and benefits, but rather from what I call "emotional logic" - what's important to me as a person, and how do I improve my sense of self.

    So, I'm still planning on doing a 5K and a half marathon in December, my usual quota of 2-4 running races a year, done in conjunction with triathlon, not run-specific training.

  • I was at church last weekend and as the preacher was getting into his sermon he mentioned something interesting about a tee shirt slogan he had read on a young mans shirt...

    Exercise

    Diet

    Die anyway

    my two cent is stats are 1 out of 1 nobody gets out alive image
  • I have been a physician for more than 30 years. I still work hard as a pulmonologist. The vast majority of my patients are extreme obese, on oxygen. Many of them younger than me (I am 64). The common denominator: obesity and sedentarism. I have done everything: mountaineering, caving, snowboarding, running. I still hang glide. It never crossed my mind that I was doing that because I wanted to live longer. It is like avoiding sex because they can trigger a fib. Be suspicious of physicians. They have an agenda to promote pills instead of exercise.
  • As an orthopedist. The amount of joint replacements I do in young people who are obese or morbidly obese is alarming and growing. They are 40 years old, miserable, cant walk, shot knees, cant hardly get out a chair without being short of breath. I'll take my chances being a skinny 50 year old triathlete!
  • I'm 57 (58 in 3 weeks) and when I go out to run, I'm much more worried about getting hit by a car or by lighting than I am about my ticker stopping. Like Al, I do tris to see what I can do at my age.  I know many people at work and in my social life who are amazed that I have finished multiple IMs, and most of them have bad hips, knees, etc and are 20-50 pounds over weight.  I'll take the lifestyle of a triathlete any time over their sedate lives.  I know that some day I won't be able to finish an IM, or even a 5k race, but I'm going to keep training/racing until I no longer can or until God calls my number.  It is how I choose to live my life, and I could care less if it might mean fewer days on the planet for me,especailly when the medical community is divided on this topic.

  • I'll be 61 in January and I have no intention of slowing down (apart from that caused by the aging process) or giving up sbr unless I can't physically do it.
    I am still PRing a HIM I do every year (for the last 5 years), so I still have upside to my performances. The advantage of starting slow LOL.
    BTW, as a data analyst for the last 40 years, I go nuts when I see studies that suggest one factor (or several) cause something else.
    In most cases the study shows no such thing — they almost always show an association, and that said, the statical ability of those doing the studies are almost always seriously lacking in rigor.
  • I loved reading these, thank you! I needed this, I am 57 and thinking I am getting too old, and it's my age slowing me down, no, it's my lack of training hard enough. I need to get out there and do the work. I know I can, I have done it for the past 30 years. I can't keep thinking my age is getting me down. I could be on the other side, right? outta shape and well, you know...........
  • I'm not there yet in terms of age, but now that I'm in my 40's I can't help but wonder about how I will feel in my 50's and beyond. It's always interesting to talk to my parents about aging, and when I fessed up to my dad that I had signed up for another Ironman for 2013 after I had said that I was not going to do anymore, his first response was that this might seem like a lot of fun now, but I might regret it when I'm having my joints replaced in 10 years. I never quite know how to respond to that kind of statement from someone who truly cares about me.

    I am so impressed by the amazing group of athletes in EN that are over 50. You all have inspired me, and I hope I'm doing as well as you in ten or twenty years.
  • Be sure to read the comments linked to the article. My favorites are one with a link to a study that completely contradicts this one, and another published research study on why the conclusions of these so called lifestyle studies are more likely to be wrong than right. Move along citizens, nothing worth looking at here.
  • John - thanks for the data-based update. Confirms my long held view of "Use it or Lose It". And the value of weight training and/or persistent anaerobic exercise, including such things as downhill skiing and mountain biking, as well as the stuff we do in the OS on the bike and track.

    It just seems that saying "Too much exercise is a bad thing" is the same as saying "Being too alive is a bad thing."

  •  "One Running Shoe in the Grave" - title is a little sensational, and perhaps misleading... but there are topics here worth our attention.

     

    When I started having afib episodes a few years ago, I did some research, and I believe that there is enough information out there to, if nothing else, make this a fascinating topic.  One more website worth perusing: http://www.drjohnm.org/

     

    A few quotes I find interesting from the article:

     

    "Opinion is nearly unanimous among cardiologists that endurance athletics significantly increases the risk of atrial fibrillation, an arrhythmia that is estimated to be the cause of one third of all strokes."

     

    "Dosage is no less relevant to exercise than to any other medical treatment."

     

    There is certainly some research to support the argument that exercise is very beneficial to a point, and that exercise beyond a certain point, especially when coupled with insufficient recovery, can negatively affect both longevity and function (heart scarring, osteoarthritis and other permanent injuries).

     

    The funny thing is that I suspect few of us would debate this point - it is almost a truism. 

     

    This brings me to the next quote.

     

    "If you are running more than 15 miles a week, you are doing it for some reason other than health" 

     

    Employing the words of my 9 yr old girl, 'no duh'.  I want to see how close I can get to the podium.  

    That's why I was at the track last night, and that's why I'm here.

    Why?  Doesn't matter - but note that there is no "live longer and healthier" in this sentence.

     

    And finally:

     

    "Even if I knew for sure that running fast had an element of risk, I don't know that I would back down," said Foiles, the 56-year-old runner who lives in a Kansas City suburb. "To finish at the front of my age group, yeah, that's an inspiration."

     

    Go Foiles!  

    Who here can't relate to that?

     

    Al's comment, "Being too alive is a bad thing" - this isn't about longevity or even long term function - it's about the experience of being alive, right here, right now, on the track, on the bike, in the water.

     

    At least that's my read.
  • As a long time runner (35 years) and a triathlete for the past five years or so, I passed the "I do it for health" perspective decades ago. In fact, if I remember correctly, I passed that phase within a couple of months of beginning to run as I discovered racing, getting faster, and going longer.

    One of my early running heroes was Dr. George Sheehan. His Runners World columns and books on the mental aspects of running were and are among my favorites. He once said that "each of us is an experiment of one" and that I believe.

    I am now 62 and my PRs are way, way back in my rear view mirror. However, at this point I still cannot see me doing it just for the health of it. Because while I may be getting slower, I still find it a necessary requirement for the soul and my well being to get out there, push when I can and continue to press onward and forward. Plus, those old guys in my AG continue to be tough old competitors who refuse to give an inch.
  • I think you old guys...you, not me, cuz I'm not...just need to look at your peer group and compare your health and quality of life to theirs.

    I almost never mix / socialize with civilians (non endurance athletes) because of the life that I lead. But when I do and the issue of age and health comes up, I am LIGHTYEARS ahead of them. My jaw drops when they tell me their age. Folks I think are ~5-10yrs older than me are often 5-10yrs younger. 

    I don't need no Dr SmartyPants doctor telling me what my eyes can see 

  • My plan is to run longer and faster!!! Live life with passion!!!!!!

    A budy a corporate gave eme a copy of the article and said " I don't expect this to change what you do a bit". A smart man!
  • I have pulled and reviewed all of the actual articles these "editorials" are based on. They are crap scientifically speaking. The studies that are being cited were not created, nor powered to address the question of whether "extreme" exercise increases mortality or not. The word "extreme" already connotes the innate bias of the authors.

    I would point out a few other, much better studies looking at long term outcomes of "extreme athletics."

    Tour de France riders outlive the general population.
    In your 50s, your ability to perform athletically as measured by the MET scale is a BETTER predictor of mortality than your cholesterol, BMI, etc.
    The incidence of cardiac hypertrophy in elite Scandinavian Nordic skiers is lower than in the general population.
    The longevity in China is highly associated with using cycling as transportation. Avg person cycles 2 or more hours a day. They just call it transportation instead of exercise.
    Lifetime Nordic skiers in Scandinavia have the equivalent performance ability in their 80's of sedentary individuals in their 40's.

    These studies are better because they set out to look at the effects of athleticism and are powered to answer that question specifically. In the other study, they studied a large population for a different question and then pulled out a very limited subset and performed a pretty meaningless analysis and then inflated the magnitude of their results to make the front page of the WSJ, NYT, etc. A study that shows exercise is good for you is a dime a dozen, one that shows that by God it'll kill you makes headlines no matter how inappropriate the data and analysis scheme.
  • Thanks Kevin for those stats...If I can stop falling down I am positive exercise will be the best place for me!!!! image
  • this is an awesome discussion, @john @kevin, thanks so much for the details and stats. Every time I read a "study" it ALWAYS seems to be one sided or the test field is too small or just too many factors have been overlooked. speaking for for myself, I have exercised my whole life. I started triathlons 8 years ago, 3 yrs ago started Ironman and today I can honestly say I am in the best shape of my life, physically and mentally. my lungs, joints, etc have never felt better. I actually feel better today than when I was 35. A lot comes from the experience of knowing how and when to recover properly. I just had to comment
  • I was at a party this past weekend and no less than 5 different people asked me about this article. Other than bullshit all I could tell them that even if there was a tiny bit of truth in the article it wouldn't change what I do. I like the rest of you do this for more than just health reasons although I am often called locally the fittest and healthiest guy in town.
  • Ive been thinking about adding my $0.02 for a while so here is my treatise on the overarching topic:

    I read the article and several others in recent years that were similar and they don’t mean anything to me.  Just like everyone else here – it’s not about improving health, it’s about doing cool stuff with the fitness you have during the time you have.  More importantly, we do not know just how much time we have so we, I, need to do what we can now.  I know this first hand.  I have seen too much death close to me to think I am wrong in my way of living. 

    Years ago (ok, decades) when I was 18-21 and coming of age in the Adirondacks, I took to rock climbing, ice climbing and winter camping in a big way.  My father would scold me for being so irresponsible and unaccountable.  He told me I needed to begin a career – any career.  He also told me that I should wait till I retire.  Only then could I go gallivanting off doing what ever, because only then would I have earned it. 

    I did not listen to my father.  I played hard until I got married at the age of 27.  As a husband and young father, I stopped the more risky activities but still enjoyed camping and hiking.  Life was good.  I had a wife and son as the center of my universe.  My wants were simple: to build a life and home for my family, swim, hike, xc ski.  All very pedestrian, all wonderful things to do with your family.

    .......

    My father whom I loved and respected never got to fulfill his dream.  Five years after he retired as he began to build his ‘dream’ home he was diagnosed with lung cancer and had his right lung removed.  Recovery seemed to be going well but he died suddenly the following year at the age of 63 from internal bleeding.

    Two years later my wife developed Chicken Pox while 7 months pregnant with our second child.  She pass away 5 days later at home.  She was only 31 years old.  I was devastated and proceeded to spend the next 30 months as a drunken single parent.  Finally I woke up and got sober.  Returned to school and am happy to say I have not had a drink since January 1992.

    In 1997 my sister died at the age of 44 from a drug related coma.  Her entire life after the age of 13 had been defined, manipulated and tortured by drugs and alcohol.  It was the way she lived and how she died.

    I continued my pedestrian outdoor pursuits until my son graduated HS.  I had to do everything in my power to be there for him as he grew to be a young man.  Once off to college with his expenses provided for, I took up where I left off so many years ago.  First it was whitewater kayaking, next it was marathons, then triathlon and now Ironman.  I’m not sure what is next but I am certain I will be looking for a new challenge in a few years.  But I figure I still have a few more Ironman events to complete first, than I’ll move on to something new.

    .........

    I do this stuff now because I can.  I do it because it makes me feel alive.  Back in my Paul Smith’s days in the ADKs, I read a lot of Thoreau but there was one passage that moved me more than any other.  It inspired me then and still, to this day, inspires me to seek ‘life’ and devour it to its fullest extent.

    • “I went to the woods because I wished to live deliberately, to front only the essential facts of life, and see if I could not learn what it had to teach, and not, when I came to die, discover that I had not lived. ~ Henry David Thoreau, Walden (1854)”

    I don’t want to live to be an old man.  That’s not to say I am ready to give up.  On the contrary, I wish to live fully and completely.  I do not care my age when I pass, only that I have not tried to postpone the inevitable.  I do not seek to prolong my life at the expense of living.

    Steven 

     

  • @Steve
    Wow.. thats all I have to say.

    That, and that I'm going to add your quote 'I do not seek to prolong my life at the expense of living' to my email signature. That is fantastic.

  • Excellent perspective, Steve.

    I, too, lost people close to me when they were at a very young age (mom 49 - dad 59 - not a single relative lived past 60).
    Although I didn't lose a spouse or had to raise a child on my own the way you did, I suffered from a severe depression in 2010 that had me at 95 lbs, in bed for about 23.5 hours/day and completely disconnected from life when I had been a competitive athlete for years. Once the conventional treatment were exhausted and provided next to no relief, in a brief moment of clarity (or insanity according to my doctor), I decided to quit all the meds cold turkey and go back to what I knew plugged me into this world; exercise. "Training" was a major part of my recovery (I even wrote myself a plan) and I firmly believe that in addition to the support of the people close to me, it helped me reconnect one session at a time (the first one being a walk to the mailbox) with the person I was and am again. So if it isn't good for me, it certainly helped me greatly.

    I train and race from a very different place now...just as fiercely and as committed as ever but from a different place .
    And you are right, to feel fully alive...for as long as that might be. Because if it weren't for exercise/training/whatever you might call it, I am not entirely convinced that my life would feel as good as it does today.
  • @ Steve... awsome nuff said.
  • Steve, Nathalie ... you guys are each so inspiring. Simply deciding to be human is sometimes very hard work, but in the end so worth it.

  • Wow...Steve and Nathalie.  Whenever I think I'm having a bad day, I'm gonna come back here and re-read your posts to get some real perspective to stop feeling sorry for myself.  Then I'm going to go for a swim, bike ride or a run...or maybe all three.   And feel lucky and alive that I get to do this stuff no matter how fast or slow I go.  Thanks for sharing your life stories. 

  • I think most understand my reason for the long post but just to be clear I want to define my purpose:  To demonstrate my perspective on why articles like in the one in the OP are irrelavant to me and possibly most endurance athletes. 

    Individually our reasons may be different but in the end, we as a collective group, are not trying to live longer - we seek to live a more rewarding life.  My specific point is that life is fickle and fleeting.  We have no idea when our days are over.  Some live long, others die young.  As I have posted to other threads in the past, the only day we have is today.  Be here now and live it.

    ;Ryan - good catch!  I never gave that phrase a second thought - it just came out.

    @ Nathalie - To grab the seat of your own pants and purposefully drag youself back into the daylight from the depths of were you were is amazing.  The internal strength you must posess will always be there for you.  Nothing I know of can compare to strength of our own willpower.

    ;Al - you my friend, may have more drive and tenacity than most to achieve what you have after such a devastaing accident not so long ago.  You are an inspration to me.  I would like to think that if I was in a similar situation that I would have half the courage of someone like you.

    ;David and Bruce - my past is just that, the past.  The only thing I bring forward from that is inner strength.  We all have events in our history that we can draw on.  It's in all of us.  For me it just happened to be blunt and obvious - maybe thats what I needed before I could recognize the true meaning of MY life.  Now that I have it, I use it to drive myself when things seem dark and bleak.

    So, in the end, I have no reason to fear the possiblity of a shorter life from excessive training and racing.  To me, those things define life, not limit it.

    Thanks for reading......

    Steven

  • I have nothing to add and yet ... Steve, Nathalie, I would add Matt, your stories of strength and getting through harder blows than I have ever known are moving and inspiring.  Thank you for being willing to share stories that are so personal.

     

  •  Being one of those "old guys" now ... ... I have to say this thread brought tears to my eyes

    thank you for sharing Steve and Nathalie

  •  If you don't use it, you lose it. Simple, but true.

    I'm not a superstar triathlete. I doubt I'll ever place in my AG unless I'm still doing this in my 80s. 

    Still, I'd rather be out of breath running up the beach to T1 or climbing an endless hill on my bike, than be out of breath getting up off the couch to sweep the Cheetos crumbs off of my enormous belly. 

    I see Flesh Zeppelins lumbering around Disney World with a turkey leg in each hand and it makes me sick. Sick, and angry, because I'm going to end up paying for their health care. 

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