So it looks like WTC is going to drop mass starts at Ironman events

GMAN 19030

Judging from news/rumors on the various message boards.  Hmmmmmm...

Carl

We knew it was bound to come with all the deaths, etc. A waiver is a waiver but someone is bound to win a legal battle against them!!! Very unsafe conditions in the water or termed some legal way.

Can't say I wont be unhappy about it.

DanJacquemin

That would be kind of lame. It is always very cool when the cannon goes off and there is just this mass of athletes moving together.

Not to mention, what does this do to a 17-hour finish time?
Maybe they'll just drop to 14 or 15 like the Challenge races...
wait, in that case tell me again why I need WTC?

new2703

That would be awesome. Means less people I have to swim over

kellyd

Where did you read this?  I haven't read it anywhere and am curious to get more info!

Dino Sarti

Seems safer to me, but I have never done a mass start. Only wave starts. The issue will be the cut off times. Example - M40-44 at ImCalif start last. I am not worried personally, but someone will always be a left short.

Coach Patrick

From a safety perspective, I get it. Note that it might open them up to having MORE athletes overall compete now....bet there's a bit of that thinking going on in there as well....what say you?

GMAN 19030

Patrick, do you think the mass start was the limiter in the number of people they could put in the course?

GMAN 19030

Posted By Dan Jacquemin on 20 Feb 2013 08:52 PM


That would be kind of lame. It is always very cool when the cannon goes off and there is just this mass of athletes moving together.



Not to mention, what does this do to a 17-hour finish time?

Maybe they'll just drop to 14 or 15 like the Challenge races...

wait, in that case tell me again why I need WTC?

It will probably run like Louisville and IMNY.  

Dino Sarti

I think the mass start may have scared many novice swimmers. I have heard is described by some in this Haus as "the most terrifying moment in sports"

Tom Glynn

I for one would be thrilled if they did away with the mass starts. I've had enough near drowning experiences for a lifetime. Some of the courses, especially CdA, have way to many swimmers in a really tight environment. Yes, I'm a poor swimmer which adds to the misery, but those mass starts are just no fun at all.

Al Truscott

Posted By Bob McCallum on 20 Feb 2013 10:32 PM
Patrick, do you think the mass start was the limiter in the number of people they could put in the course?

Yes. Over the past 10-15 yrs, as IMs have grown from 1500 to nearly 3000 racers, swim starts have evolved from challenging to "Aw, I don't really want to do that." Beaches are only so wide.

IMO, AG based waves are OK, TT starts not. I want to be able to directly engage with my competition. Anything else is not a race, but an event. Alternative is three starts...First is for those who expect to finish in over 15 hours. Second is those competing for AG awards and WC slots. Third is everyone else in TT format. Give that last group different bib and bike stickers, allow them to draft.

Jay Lakamp

Al I hope you're not suggesting to start the slower athletes first (I'm in that group). If that's the case, we get to be ran over twice or more by the two following groups. I for one enjoyed the scrum. I've been the guy slowing the faster athletes down in swim classes going around a bouy as a demo for all the faster athletes for practice. There is a technique to swim over laterally two swimmers on you hip to get to the other side of them to swim past them too.

Carrie Chavez

That would be a change that might bring me back to IM racing. The mass starts have done me in.

For now though I will enjoy training really hard with no race in sight. Feels good to take a break from racing.

ccotstanza12

I haven't seen any links to articles, but does anyone know if they're thinking effective for this year or "in the future"? First IM this year and potentially first mass start at LP so just trying to wrap my head around it. I can say it's a bit intimidating, but being in a smaller represented age group (25-29 F), I would also hate to feel like I got shoved into a later group to make numbers work out and had less time in my day. I haven't looked into how Louisville and NYC were run though.

tim cronk

X2 On Al's comments about AG Wave starts ..... While I like the TT Start Model , you never know who you are racing.

gcharbeneau

Posted By Patrick McCrann on 20 Feb 2013 09:57 PM


From a safety perspective, I get it. Note that it might open them up to having MORE athletes overall compete now....bet there's a bit of that thinking going on in there as well....what say you?

Generates more revenue for WTC!!!!!  Companies have even more pressure these days to increase profit margins! The mass start is part of the competition I think. However, from a safety perspective to steal your quote "I get it".......

gcharbeneau

Posted By Carrie Chavez on 21 Feb 2013 01:47 AM


That would be a change that might bring me back to IM racing. The mass starts have done me in.



For now though I will enjoy training really hard with no race in sight. Feels good to take a break from racing.

We want you back!!!!!  The dynamic duo husband and wife team competing once again...........whoo hoo!

GMAN 19030

Posted By Claire Costanza on 21 Feb 2013 04:04 AM


I haven't seen any links to articles, but does anyone know if they're thinking effective for this year or "in the future"? First IM this year and potentially first mass start at LP so just trying to wrap my head around it. I can say it's a bit intimidating, but being in a smaller represented age group (25-29 F), I would also hate to feel like I got shoved into a later group to make numbers work out and had less time in my day. I haven't looked into how Louisville and NYC were run though.

Supposedly, IMCdA has already been changed to something else besides the mass start.  Supposedly #2, all IMs from that point forward will be non-mass start.

I'm not sure what IMTX is going to do since it's before CdA.

GMAN 19030

Just read this from a CdA resident who posts on ST and BT...

IMCDA will be more of a TT start (they have been calling it a "flow" start) than a wave start.  You pick when you want to start based on your anticipated swim time - the fastest line up first, the slowest line up last. 

They will launch groups of about 100 every fifteen seconds starting at 6:35 (the pros go at 6:00).  The last group leaves at 7:00 and the cutoff is 9:20 for everyone.  The timing mat is at the edge of the water, and once you cross it you have 17 hours.  Everyone that crosses the finish before midnight gets a medal, shirt and hat - but the official results will show DNF if you didn't make it in 17 hours.

Kkaufer

Only IM I've ever done is IMLOU which has a TT start. They launch swimmers off of two docks, every 2-3 seconds or so.  Time to get all swimmers into the water is about 35 minutes.  Swim cut-off is 2 hours 20 mins after start of AG start, so most weaker swimmers try to go up front to allow maximum amount of time.  I've heard calls for a seeding system based on anticipated times, but I don't know what's come of that.   Because of the narrow channel at the LOU swim start, it can still be quite crowded, but I actually enjoyed that swim.  That being said, I second comments made by others that it makes it difficult to figure out who you're racing against.  Then again, I'm MOP, so that's not such a big deal to me!

Only other point I'd raise that while eliminating mass starts may reduce number of deaths, there's no guarantee: in 2011 at IMLOU, a man died shortly after the swim start.  I don't remember what the exact cause was or if he had a pre-existing condition.

DanJacquemin

I thought about this some more: the mass start is part of the race. You should train for it and expect it. Yes, it can be difficult, but guess what? It's supposed to be. It's Ironman, not Somewhat-Difficult Man-So-We-Took-Out-The-Hard-Part-So-Everyone-Can-Get-A-Cookie-And-A-Trophy-At-The-End-Let's-All-Hug-Now-Man(tm).

Too many people on the course can be a problem, but then WTC should limit the number of entries to a more manageable number. I'd rather go to a qualifier for an IM than a wave start.

 Foo! Now I sound like one of those ST weenies... sorry...

IMHO, the mass start is part of the race, take it away and you're doing something besides an Ironman.

GMAN 19030

Dan, there's no way to train for a mass start. Let's get real here.

benvanmarcke

Posted By Bob McCallum on 21 Feb 2013 07:14 AM

Just read this from a CdA resident who posts on ST and BT...

IMCDA will be more of a TT start (they have been calling it a "flow" start) than a wave start.  You pick when you want to start based on your anticipated swim time - the fastest line up first, the slowest line up last. 

They will launch groups of about 100 every fifteen seconds starting at 6:35 (the pros go at 6:00).  The last group leaves at 7:00 and the cutoff is 9:20 for everyone.  The timing mat is at the edge of the water, and once you cross it you have 17 hours.  Everyone that crosses the finish before midnight gets a medal, shirt and hat - but the official results will show DNF if you didn't make it in 17 hours.

Seems reasonable to me. I only did one race with mass start and that was IM SG in 2012. I thought the mass start thing really wasn't that bad, actually it never felt any different than starts at 70.3's with 300 people in my age group. Not sure how representative SG was compared to other races since the reservoir was more than wide enough. Guess I will see at Wisconsin later this year!

DanJacquemin

Posted By Bob McCallum on 21 Feb 2013 07:25 AM


Dan, there's no way to train for a mass start. Let's get real here.

*cough* http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r3S0wu4Zbfk *cough*

But, ideally by the time you've worked your way up to competing in an Ironman you've done numerous wave starts and open water swims and the only thing "new" with a mass start is transitioning from the beach into the swimming position. That shouldn't be a make or break part of your day. Right?

ezellrh

IMHO, I don't see getting crushed at a mass start swim as part of the requirements for ironman/triathlon. Why is it considered a requirement to participate in the type of start where over 50% of the after actions talk about black eyes, bloody lips, painful punches, begin forced underwater by others? This isn't a supposed to be a contact sport. I think triathlon should be about swim/bike/run ' ing the set distances for your chosen discipline and getting the check in the box. I got absolutely crushed at IMCDA last year and ended up spending some time hanging off two different kayaks. At the other end of the spectrum, I loved the swim at Louisville and plan on racing there again. I also don't think it has anything to do with my mindset/physical capabilities, I'm 6'3, played rugby for a Div 1 college, and have been in the military for almost 22 years. I know when/where its appropriate for physical contact. It's not appropriate for non-contact sports that are co-ed and include a wide spectrum of ages.

Personally, I love this move. I can understand the position of not knowing where your competition is, but I totally don't buy into the "Suck it up and get ready for WWE if you want to play" position. YMMV.

John Withrow

I've done exactly 3 IM's and 2 people have died during the swims. 1 at IMLou in 2011 and 1 at IMNYC in 2012, both of which were TT starts. I can't remember anyone dying at a mass start race, but my sample size is small... I found that with the TT starts you were either swimming into and over slower swimmers the whole time and being swum into and swum over by faster swimmers the whole time. In the mass start, the first 5-10 mins was very turbulent, but then for the next hour, I was mostly swimming near and around swimmers that were basically the same speed as I was.

Whatever they decide is fine with me though. I'll simply show up and do what I can with the hand I'm dealt.

My 2 cents is that this is less about safety and more about being able to squeeze an extra few people on the course which means more $$ for the WTC. I can't say I blame them, they are a for profit company and nobody is making us sign up for their races...

[Deleted User]

I remember reading an article recently that analyzed deaths in triathlon. While the swim was where most of these events occurred, a mass start was no more risky than a wave start. Of course you still may be a little more likely to get banged up a bit in a mass start. You have to admit its pretty damn exciting being a part of that, or watching it. I'm hoping they don't change it at Placid this year.

Swanie

I'm bummed about loosing the mass start. I think that was part of the mystique of the Ironman. I've done three IM's all with mass starts. One I got wrapped up with another swimmer and he pulled my garmin off my wrist and it sunk in Lake CdA. In Arizona I got punched so hard I came out of the water with a black eye. But I still love the mass start. It's just part of what makes an Ironman an Ironman.
Either way I'll continue supporting WTC, I think they put on a great event, I just hate t see the wussification of a tough sport. But then again have you seen what they doing to football?

Jess Withrow

When I initially read the subject line, I thought, "YES! Thank GOODNESS!" I've done IMLou and IMNYC - and I anticipate my most terrifying moment of 2013 to occur during the swim start at IMLP. However, after thinking about it for a moment, I realized that as a much slower swimmer (~1:41 at IMLou), I can appropriately seed myself during a mass start or a TT start, but if WTC were to move to AG wave starts... well... I'd be screwed. Every one to two minutes would mean another wave of people swimming over me. This is not an anxiety issue for me, but it IS an issue with finding my groove all over again after 100 people make their way around and over top of me (only to be swum over again in the very near future). So, if this actually does happen, I'll be crossing my fingers for a TT start (likely to JW's dismay)... or spending a LOT more time in the pool (to my dismay!).

And to add to what JW said regarding swim deaths - a friend of mine was knocked out by a breast stroker's kick at IMFL. She was pulled from the water by a kayaker and didn't remember much other than *trying* to get around the breast stroker, but having nowhere to go b/c it was so crowded... yikes...

Al Truscott

From the IM CDA web site FAQs:

Is the swim a mass start?

Yes, the swim is a mass start.

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Originally from: http://www.ironman.com/triathlon/ev...z2LXrRsyuO

Personally, I agree with those who say mass start is part of Ironman. Just like hills or heat, it represents the difficulty of the swim. IMO, the ONLY difficult part of swimming 2.4 mi.

As to slow starters getting run over by faster ones. My proposal above, for three different start times, assumes that those in the subsequent waves all presume to finish under 15 hours, so the slow ones could have a substantial head start, say 45-60 minutes for a one loop swim, or 40 minutes for a two loop. Yes, there will be some exeptionally fast swimmers who are exceptionally slow biker/runners, and also vice versa, but for the vast majority, this would be a more tolerable experience.