The Testing Groupthink Thread
Team,
We are a data/testing/metric driven bunch, to say the least. This has proven to “work,” from both a training and race execution perspective, but even good things can sometimes have not-so-good effects. PnI want to have an open discussion with you, as a Team, about testing so we can all become a squad of better self-coached athletes.
The Vibe We See Right Now
The net is that we rely on tests to establish baselines, but it’s often difficult for the reasons outlined below to have a good test. So you don’t. You get bummed out. Start questioning your commitment and progress. As coaches, it’s a downer to see such amazing, hard-working folks assume they are no good from one single test result.
So we want to explore alternatives to testing, as a community.
The Basic Rhythm
You do a test. You determine VDot for the run and FTP for the bike, if you are training with power. We prescribe workouts based on these metrics and you do a LOT of work, sitting on these numbers, working hard to push them up. Then we retest to establish new numbers
The Rub
The plans, the culture of the Team and our metric-driven approach to training, etc, tends to place a LOT of importance on this tests. But it’s difficult for many of us, for many reasons, to have a “good” test:
- We’ve got you on the ragged edge, give you a couple of light days, and expect you to drill it in a test drive the numbers up. Most of the time it works, sometimes not so much.
- Currently many/most of you are training and testing indoors. We know there is only so much of yourself you can mentally give in these situations over time before it just becomes too much. If you can’t squeeze out that last drop of mojo, that equals a few watts or seconds/mi less than you “should” be able to do for a test. You don't perform as expected and become bummed.
What we'd like from you
Many of you have likely experienced this and have come up with your own solutions or workaround. We'd like to hear your ideas and we'll share ours with you.
Desired End State
We, as a team, have a deeper understanding and perspective of what tests to and don't mean, have identified viable alternatives to forml testing, and in general all of expand our tool boxes outside of the training plans.
Thanks, we look forward to the discussion!
Comments
1- I suck at tests (from ES to now, I've never been a good "tester")
2- I love to race
3- I'm a data geek and really pretty diligent about uploading every run and ride into WKO.
So I don't test. Well, not in the "Traditional" sorta way. For vDots, I try really hard to find a local 5, 8, or 10K race and I'll juggle the training schedule to dump myself into that race to get my vDot. For FTT I will either find a local Time Trial, get a buddy to "race" me, or just use the last 28 day power profile in WKO to get the number.
Sometimes I do the test, sometimes not. It seems to work for me.
I avoid vdot tests like I avoid liver. For some reason, these just don't cut it well for me. I feel that I judge my vdot better when I look at whether or not I can hold my MP or HMP sets once I'm in race prep. The IP intervals during the OS are cake for me, but when I get into longer TP, HMP, MP or even LRP I suffer. There is a real disconnect between IP and the other paces for me. I don't have a solution to this one as I haven't purchased a watch that loads into WKO+ yet. This is part of my plan for this coming season to see if that data can help me dial in the run.
Good thoughts!
On the power front, I'd say there is definitely a disconnect between people who ride outside, especially with a "free-range" style like me (no structured intervals, just ride hard, a lot), and those who ride inside. Inside = intervals = your data will be clumped around specific wattages, by definition.
For the FreeRangers, and those who do interval training outdoors, this is what I do:
In many ways my situation is unique in that I have terrain and riding sitatuations where I can go very, very hard for a long time with no interuptions. I can put up a legitimate P60 as a true 60' TT, so not sure how applicable #2 would be for everyone else.
VDot: my last training with pace focus was IMCDA'08, before we figured out the VDot, E-Pace, IM run pacing stuff. Last week was my first run with a watch in almost 2yrs so I can't really comment
As for solutions to the test anxiety thing: When I'm not focused on some catty in the moment goal (like not letting some woman wearing makeup at the local 5K where I'm doing my Vdot test pass me), I think about how the OS is my time to drive up my FTP and Vdot to I can earn the right to ride at a certain wattage and run at a certain pace on race day. I also figure that overcoming the mental block of testing only helps me overcome race day doubts and dark moments---you know, that mental 6-pack thing.
What else do folks do?
FTP test 2- excited to see work manifested in bigger numbers, went well
FTP test3- just get it over with, knew the work was working but not psyched to throw down, tired of the routine, the trainer etc, not identified with the outcome....I do remember, after realizing I went out too hard in the first 20' and would end up with a less than satisfying number (one higher than Halligan's) that the one thing I could control was how I finished- to gut it out essentially. Really liked the work it provided and that seems to be a quite valuable aspect of the testing. (What Kit said.)
VDOT tests- any improvement is gravy and there has been some, plus technique/efficiency improvement and an overall run fitness and frequency boost.
The real challenge is to not end up the OS mentally burnt. For me that's riding outside soon, rekindling the bike love and getting some legit bricks in.
I like the testing. I've done all of the tests in my years with EN except three. Maybe it's my age, range of experience, and length of time doing these kinds of things, but no way, no how, does the result of a test define me in any way--or even throw me. When it goes well, it feels great. When it goes badly, it sure is a good workout. Nothing lost. I get most frustrated with myself when I don't pay attention to my limitations and dig too big a hole, and booger my goals. Testing is just testing.
Now don't get me wrong, I put my game face on to do them. My attitude does not imply slacking or lack of high goals for myself. What I do, however, is WORK IT ALL OUT BEFORE I HEAD OUT THE DOOR. I actually take the time to rescript all my insecurities into strengths. I script out EXACTLY how I want the test to go--minute by minute. I make sure I know exactly what to expect from myself before I sit on the saddle or lace up the shoes. I review the instructions to myself before I go. This approach has never, ever failed me. It allows me to stay focused on what I want to do, stay crazy strong about it all, and in the end give it 100%. If you give the test 100%--and you REALLY did, no shit--then how can you be disappointed--whatever the outcome? There is no more to ask of oneself. 100% is all we got. You can then debrief and manage the elements that may have led to a "bad" test, or revel in how well it went and carry on. It's also a lot more fun knowing you are connecting with, and putting to work the deepest levels of your strengths as you go to conquer the road. Ironmind, baby. Always.
As for the bike since I spend most of my time on the trainer this time of year doing intervals. I will do a 20 min test and take .95 of that then do my workouts if I can't hold it then I may go to .93 of the 20 min max. I haven't had to go lower than that. I really like the power clinic test of 5min and 20 min it is much more doable as a indoor test and also help me plan wether I need to do more vo2 training or ftp work.
Being in my second season with the EN team I manipulate my workouts quit abit to what I feel I really need at the time and use the training plan as a guideline. Last season I followed it almost to the letter.
Having said that, I like testing when it goes well, and I don't when it doesn't go well.
I've had great results overall since joining EN in both the run and bike areas. This OS didn't go so well on the bike. I had an awesome test coming into the OS, with all time high FT numbers. I was never able to hit them again and I still struggle mentally. I'm probably down about 15-20 watts, but it's hard to admit it and scale everything back down to reality.
I've done most tests, but if I feel sick or really tired, I have no problem bagging them and just moving on.
I use some of the WKO graphs to monitor my work. I like looking at the absolute power curve. I set power buckets at 10 watts and the graph bell curves around where most of the work is done, which hopefully is in the 70% to 80% range, with lots in the FT area.
tom
That is a tough reality. It happened to me the September before IMFL. I kept going up, up, up crazy-like all summer. That Septemer test gave me another 8 watt bump that I was never able to hold in training. Patrick made the point that is was likely a "good test"--just as we have "bad" ones. Neither are necessarily reflective of our fitness, ability, or where we're at in training. But it sure is easier to have a one-off "bad" test than a "good" one, isn't it?
I have to agree 1 test does not make you or break you as an athlete. I go by what Rich says about over a given amount of time I am at X. Vdot testing is super hard in the winter as running it on the Dreadmill is worse than root canal work. I look at my logs for the weeks and months and say where was I last year and where am I know. I know for me the cumlative effect of the work and testing has gotten me in such better shape, so if today I can only hit 200 watts but tomorrow its 240 well it is what it is as long as I feel like it hurts than its all good.
Honestly- I like the regular testing and was cool with doing it every 4 weeks even if it was only for the mental-fu. Personally, I hate the run tests. Dread them, want to wimp out of them, etc....but, the bottom line is I need them to break out of my comfort zone and URP (universal race pace across all distances). The bike tests I can handle, but the bike is also my favorite of the sports.
That being said, my tests have been up and down over the years so I've learned to pay more attention to my wko charts and my workout trends as a check and balance kind of thing. Prime example- when long rides start ending up in the .9 range it's time to give the zones a bump etc. It also helps to give me a realistic goal for tests versus just picking my wannabe number and blowing up in the first 20 trying to hit it. My run-fu on the wko is a little weaker especially this time of year with inside/outside swaps and all the gps stuff/errors so I play around with the vdot calculators to kinda figure out what my goals are come test time and where I might be based on race results.
I say keep 'em. it's how a lot of us have learned to use the data. the people who need to race are usually very good at finding races that fit the bill for a test.
So, what I learned was that I am more comfortable having less frequent run tests becasue I have a strong sense of my fitness and pacing. I will test regularly on the bike moving forward.
Also, I have had a couple bike tests where I did not show improvement. I did not use those lower numbers. I continued to use my previous FTP until the next test where I usually saw a big bump.
This year for my first FTP test in November, I tested at 214, or something like that. I knew that was low and did my intervals at 225 and often hit a bit higher. They felt right. I had to stop the OS and start over in January. When I tested again, I hit 229 which is where I thought I was.
I guess my message is that the metrics are great and I wouldn't train any other way. You still have to listen to your body and make educated decisions based on your experience.
For me, testing is tough, plain and simple. Ever since my rowing days, I get anxious leading into a test or race. I still do today. The difference is I can recognize my fear and anxiety as nothing more than silly emotions (most of the time).
I'm still a testing newbie in many ways. I tested about 4 or 5 times last year between Jan and March. I was a testing fool. First 2 were inside, next one was a 47' climb in CA not done as a test, but used the number as a baseline, then tested another 2 times outside in March. After that, it was just ride, ride, ride, race, race, race. No more testing. Didn't do another test until start of the OS.
I did keep an eye on my 60' peak power for my longer rides, and all my bike race results.
For this OS, I've tested 4 times, raced once. Got worked up before each one, except the one I did as a sneak attack test.
1st 300 - Not a lot of nerves, excited to start the OS. Curious what my indoor FTP would be vs. last year.
2nd 290 - Totally worked up all day, in the midst of a serious fatigue funk, 2nd 20' was a bomb and I knew it was going to be a bad test so I treated it as a mental six pack experience.
3rd 305 - Did this 2 weeks after the fatigue funk as a sneak attack FTP during a 2x20 wko
4th 322 - Another sneak attack FTP test. Had done an indoor TT a few days prior so I wasn't planning on testing, but felt good so I gave it a go. This was by far my best executed test. I had been practicing during all the Sat 2x20's to build on each 5'. This really helped.
For Vdot testing, I've used 10k races, but have done two 5k solo efforts this OS. For whatever reason, I don't get as worked up about these, I still get worked up, just not as much as an FTP test.
In Sep, I did my 10k giving me a vdot of 51, previous was 50. In Nov OS 5K, I tested to a 52. Never even got to train at the 51 paces. Training at the 52 paces this OS has been tough, but manageable.
My second test was 13 seconds slower. Bad test, kept the 52. I need to learn how to go out a bit easier, so I can negative split.
That's probably more info than anyone wanted to read, but it also helped me do a little year in review of a season of OS, racing, and another OS.
For me, the tests are an important part of training. Good or bad results still yield a helluva workout and are great for mental strength building.
Remember, these are just numbers that are used to benchmark your training. There's a whole set of skills called execution come race day.
Dave
I did not test regularly during the season, but I was doing mainly sprint and Oly races, some off road, and one HIM. The testing wasn't important as I was just maintaining since I was kind of burned out.
This year, I was very excited to start the OS. I did the FTP test, but the VDOT hasn't happened. The novelty is worn off. I have been running at my end of last season VDOT. I can exceed my TP by 10" most intervals, but being in the Power Clinic, I have not wanted to mess with my running paces. Once the Power Clinic ends, I will bump up my VDOT by 1 and work at those paces. I will test at races in the future if it fits my schedule, otherwise I will take the position that if I am regularly exceeding my paces, then it is time to bump it a bit.
When you have a lot of low hanging fruit, the tests make you feel on top of the world, every time. Even a bad test is bound to be better than the previous result. But once you are a year into the new routine, big gains are tough to obtain. It becomes more a matter of tracking your data, as so many others have mentioned.
Tests have their place for folks new to da haus and training. Data analysis is more important than testing as you develop experience with the metrics.
Well said and very insightful.
At this point in the game I do the bike tests during the out season just so that I can play along with the gang and because it is one hell of a training session. Once I am out of the basement no formal testing. I certainly track all of my data all year. I have a very good sense of what my FTP is at any given time from that data and trust the data far more than the result of any given 42 minutes. I also tend to estimate low when coming up with a race plan. Always have that "if you went too easy on the bike you have the whole run to run really fast to make up for it" thing to fall back on.
Pretty much the same thing with running. I know where I am at. It is super fun to get faster but it is the kinda thing that happens in small increments at this point. If my vdot is 55.7 or 56.1 I really do not care and do not think it matters that much as I can't control the training paces that exactly anyhow.
Running is a little different for me. I have never been able to earn a vdot increase in a solo 5k. In fact my vdot is almost always higher in a half marathon (even solo as a workout). Plus, I have been training by pace and with vdot for 3 years now, so I pretty much don't test unless during a race. Also, my vdot changes very very little these days.
I typically do the following for vdot tests:
Start of the OS - 5k Turkey Trot)
End of the OS - 5k and/or Half
Start of my in season (May) - Half
From May on my vdot does not really change, I just adopt to holding those paces for longer times.
Great thread, I've learned a lot about attitude and flexibility from the comments.
Of course, the most important thing is finding the right pace and length of interval for each workout. Joining EN last July, I had zero experience in using power numbers for training or racing purposes, and years of using specific paces and distances for run training sessions. I've thus been very diligent about use EN protocols to determine my proper effort level both on the trainer and outdoors for the bike. For the run, a 5K or 10K or 21K has always pushed me much better than running aroun the track or on a treamill by myself, and I already know how to correlate those results with training paces.
Luckily, my local tri club has weekly 12 mile TTs spring and summer, so I can use those outdoors. And I seem to be able to push myself just fine on my trainer outdoors on my covered deck in the winter.
Due to experience levels, I have been reluctant to alter my training zones on the bike between tests. But now that my CT will once again generate reliable workout files, I can start using the 28 day retrospective method to learn about how to alter my effort levels on the bike on the fly. I do tinker with paces on the run between "tests", using PE to help me stay in the zone I want, and letting myself go faster if that's what it takes, cause I've had good results with that method over a number of years.
I think I got hurt last year by a "good test." I was fired up at the end of the outseason and ran (for me) a great 5 mile race as my last outseason test. The result was a 3-point jump in my VDOT from 46 to 49.5. I tried to hold the prescribed faster paces in training as I then entered my IM training. Basically, I immediately began a big bump up both in distance and in relative pace based on where I was training just a week prior. I dug in and did my best, but began to crumble due to accumulating stress injuries that I couldn't shake and that left me walking at IMLP with a pulled calf muscle. This year, I am going to self limit really big bumps in VDOT to try to smooth out any jarring transitions.
Kevin,
That is a good idea. There really should be no such thing as a 3 point jump in Vdot, certainly not in a short period. For an experienced runner I would worry about a 3 point jump in a year unless something [wieght, average mileage, injuries or lack thereof] drastically changed. As has been mentioned a few times above Vdot really is not going to change that much over the course of a season. IIRC Daniels suggests going up one point if you have been holding all the training paces for a couple of months. I think that is a better method than attempting to base all of your training paces off one race where for whatever reason you crushed it...K-Dub style
Not sure if this is good or bad..................
I have so much going on all the time that one of the things I find I like most about EN and the testing protocols is I don't have to think about it! (wow...bad form using 3 I's in one sentence). For me (only 2nd yr in haus) I like the benchmarking aspect of testing. My belief is that one thing above most others is what sets it apart. Sticking to protocols is what sets the ground work for "plan the work, work the plan". Without testing...how do you measure your race result? You can not measure IMCDA 09 vs IMCDA 10 based on time alone. Way too many variables exist. Weather, other racers, timing, etc, etc. Testing throughout the year gives me verifiable data on how my fitness is progressing.
Even though we most often like to play the role of "general" when it comes to our fitness/training (we are mostly type A) I approach this more like "soldier" when I look at workouts for the week. Whether it is testing or workouts I just put my head down, do the work that I expect will earn my respect and trust that who ever is calling the shots gets it right. Not withstanding being sick or a terrible scheduling conflict I go forward realizing that there are "good" and "bad" days. I am not one to hang 100% on either extreme.
Just thoughts..
Lots of good stuff here.
I like the testing esp the VDOT. Before running with pace I think I left to much on the table at most races whether it was a Tri or an open run. For me the Vdot testing makes me really suffer and push myself. I think the suffering during testing esp the dreaded 10K test made me a much better racer.
The Bike test is a bit different. Right now I am inside and the 20 20 on the trainer is tough. Outside is hard because I don't have a great route I actually have to drive out to a country road that isn't perfectly flat and still have to deal with a stop sign. I like the numbers and use the tests along with all my data to figure out my power numbers. If I am fatigued dont feel well or cant fit the test into my life I have no problem skipping it and fitting in later. I try to set up my tests so that I am rested.
Testing is not fun. There will be good tests and bad tests, and possibly tweaking involved afterwards, but once you test and get your training zones, you really can just relax and completely focus on the day's MS, and once you get a feel for your intensities the sessions and subsequent tests get mentally easier.
Having only been here a few months I can only speak for the current iteration of the plans, and I think that testing every 8 weeks 2 x 20' (2) FTP and 5k vDOT is not too much.
Once thing that might be nice, would be guidelines for people that cant do the tests on the specified days. How should they best move the other days around the tests and still stay somewhat on schedule, etc.
P
I new to the Haus this OS so I am seeing good gains all around coming off an injury and the couch. I personally like the testing and find that I can push myself almost as hard as in a 5k or race.
As a new guy I think the testing every 4 weeks might have been beneficial to be able to bump up the FTP or Vdot more often. Also for those that had blown tests it would have helped as well. In transition from my other training I am well aware of my max HR so pacing the tests was decent, still not great on the bike and better on the one run test. I started the run later so am only moving in to week 7 of the run.
The thing I have found in my past and reading here is that you can just look at one 42' FTT or a 5k. There are many influences on why you had a good day or a bad one. If your FTT was lower perhaps it was fatigue or work stress. I am not comfortable like the OS vetrans in pegging my FTP of vdot from other metrics but this will come I am sure.
I'd keep the testing protocol as Tom mentioned it sets EN apart. I also find that it give me a goal in the OS when I don't have any races. I'm not just doing 2X8, 2X10, 2X15 then 2X20. The 2X20 actually has a little more importance every 6-8 weeks and metrics good or especially bad should force you to analyze the situation.
Gordon