FTP struggles
I've posted before about some difficulties I was having hitting FTP marks. I'm looking for some help in thinking through my current situation (ie. do I need more rest than I've already taken, or just hang in there, keep working, and stuff will work itself out). Below is kinda long, and I appreciate anyone who's willing to spend the time to read it.
I'm starting to wig out about the lack of any FTP progress. Last season, mid season form, I was seeing about 240-245 on the tri bike (using the power distribution chart mostly). This OS, on the road bike (+, but also on the trainer, -), I started at 234, saw 242 at the 8 week test, and it's all been downhill from there. I couldn't drop a 242 test right now if you held a gun to my head.
When RnP put together the 'heads we win, tails you lose' thread, they put out a number of 260, and honestly, I thought "if I only hit 260, I'll have really blown it this OS". I really felt like 270 was reasonable (for a variety of reasons). Last year, I only had about 8 weeks of OS (joined EN in February), so this was my inaugural 'full OS', and I expected that I've still got a lot of growth to achieve in my biking. My workouts have been consistent (much more so than last year), and I never felt like I was digging a hole. TSB on the PMC (combined) was marching lower slowly, but not getting out of hand.
Then, January hit. I was so fired up about the Power Clinic. Starting about the 2nd week of January, I don't think I've hit a single power target on anything other than a few 30/30's. Not one single power clinic workout. Not one single FTP interval. I've come close, holding in the 95-99% range on a few (very few, mostly recently). But in November and December, I was putting out mid-to-high 240's on my weekly FTP intervals. Now, when I finish with an average power of 237, I'm high-fiving myself for not falling apart.
I'm convinced that the problem here is not between the ears. I was excited for the workout this morning. This was an opportunity to have fun doing work I really liked doing just two months ago. This was not a referendum on my fitness, not a test, just a chance to have fun working hard on the bike. 1st 20 minutes, good, not great (positive split, but not a huge fall off). 2nd 20 minutes, good for the first 5. Then, something changed. I just simply had less watts in my legs. Z3 watts felt like Z4 RPE. I tried to push the watts up to Z4, and it felt like Z5 RPE. This is a consistent trend in nearly all FTP intervals since early January.
In the NovOS bike thread, Matt asked me to post some of my PMC data. So here goes.
Combined PMC
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Comments
I will say you have done the right thing by taking the time to stand down over the last week or so. If what you were doing wasn't working, there is no reason to keep going right into a brick wall (I'm still working on learning this myself).
I can't remember, even though your FTP did not increase during the power clinic, did you see a jump in your 5 minute power?
Matt, when I did the first 5&20 test, Dec 18, I came out at 301/256. Jan 11, it was 305/246, and Feb 16, it was 305/241. The Feb 16th test I was holding back a touch on the 5', so perhaps the number would have been 307-308 at the exact same RPE as the January test.
Thanks.
Mike,
I'll give you the non technical assessment based on my own experience. You're killing the run this OS. I mean killing it. You've probably never run this hard for an extended period, ever. Even at your svelte flyweight, running takes its toll. I think part of you power outage issue is related to this. It's tough to have phenomenal breatkthroughs in both the bike and run during the OS.
You did the power hack. That's tough stuff too. You're asking a lot of you body and mind to keep up with all this hard, hard work we do.
I say be patient. I know that's hard. Believe me, I stuggle with it myself. I was crying to my wife last night about my running injury woes.
Another thing. When's the last time you were riding outside with other people? Try chasing someone slightly stronger than you for an hour or two and tell me how your FTP looks. It makes a world of difference.
You want to do well at LP this year. If you went in with your current fitness level, vdot, and FTP I think you'd do just fine.
Hang in there and don't kill yourself. Recover as hard as you train. Get in the pool, go for a hike, go skiing, something fun that you won't be measuring.
I haven't done a full 2x20' in almost a month. I've been breaking them up. After riding outside for two weeks straight, getting back on the drainer has been tough, but I also put in some hard volume when outside so I'm trying not to drill myself into a hole.
Dave
Hi Mike,
My struggle is here. Even though I'm a lot older, you might get some insight from my story and input from others. You are not alone. I'll be interested in following this thread and your story over the weeks. Hang in there!
Struggling with FT Intervals After VO2Max Block
Struggling with FT Intervals--The Recovery
This one is kind of simple, but maybe ... bike geometry. When I start slipping on my intervals the last 2 winters, I've found that my saddle was dropping down. I never had a problem with this till I got my P3C - something about the all carbon that I find my seat slowly drops. First time it was more than 1.5" before I noticed, and a few weeks ago was almost 1".
Mike,
I'm not to familiary with the PMC chart so I'll let other look at those. My initial comments... I agree that you have been killing it on the run and also doing a lot of work on the bike.
In you rest you mention Tue bike, 3 off day, Sat bike z3, 2 off days, tue bike wed off, Thursday bike fri off; Sat bike Sun off. Where were your runs in here? That 3 days off were you off running as well or did you hit the Wednesday run. If you were still hammering the runs, perhaps even more so because of the days off this could reduce the recovery significantly.
I mention this because I just took this last Saturday off and ran on Sun and definitely had to hold back on my pace z1 run and my strides were very quick for me.
I''ll check this thread out again this evening but that's all I have now.
Gordon
@ Gordon, nope, I skipped those runs entirely. I've only run a couple of times in the last two weeks. After that Tuesday bike, I decided it was time to pull back. W, R, F completely off. Sat easy bike, S M completely off.
@ Mike B, I've wondered a bit about it, since my saddle was about 1cm lower than I'd meant for it to be. But putting it back up didn't help (and I found myself rocking just a touch), so I'm now about halfway in between.
@ Linda, I've been following your posts, and appreciate the insight. Lots of lessons to learn there. Thanks!
Mike
A few other thoughts...now that I'm taking a work break.
The other thing that we discover training here is that we really need to embrace the fact that we are SELF-COACHED athletes. We get great guidance and input, but at the end of the day you have to be willing to honestly assess where you're at--whether you are over doing it, or cutting corners. (It's usually the former, isn't it?
) I understand more and more what the self-coached part means for me, here are a couple of things that finally got through this dense head:
1. It's hard to remember (and I need to be reminded) that you only ride a peak for so long. One can't sustain a peak forever, as we all know. And we DO build to a peak in the OS. You go up, then you have to come down and back off. Now the tricky part is figuring out when YOU--you, as an individual human being--start dropping over the bell curve into the land of diminishing returns. The plans are a TEMPLATE. There is no magic in the OS being 20 weeks, or 18 weeks, or whatever. If you hit your peak, and ride it too long just because "you're still in the OS," that can be a costly decision. This is where the self-coached part really kicks in. Some people may peak at 12 weeks, some at 25 weeks. This is where it's hard to be smart, but we all need to do the best we can in this area.
2. You have to learn the warning signs, and you HAVE to heed them. You have to learn to use the motivation of the group to keep you going, but you have to also be independent if you need to step away from the plate for YOUR own long-term training well being. This is hard, but necesssary IMO. I am not Mary athlete, and Mary is not me.
3. In a way, having a drop off isn't a bad thing. (If you don't dig too deep a hole.) If you keep the data, you can always refer back to it when you start feeling, "hmmmm, maybe I need to back off." Your body might not match the data 1:1, but it can help you manage your fatigue a bit preemptively in the future.
Just a few thoughts after a great 2008 (trained smart) season that was awesome, and a bust 2009 (not smart) season that I do not want to repeat.
Don't despair, Mike. Just take an honest look and you'll see what you need to do. In these cases, "more" is not usually the best option.
Work from where are now, and you'll get it all back, plus some.
I would definately look at your Bike Fit, seeing how as soon as you got the New Saddle you started to lose it. You may have the saddle too far back or forward or maybe the tilt of it as well, not just a height issue. Check those. Also see if you may have any pictures of the bike before you replaced the saddle to maybe help with where it was before all this. It might be obvious with the picture or it might not.
I'm really new here, only a few weeks. But hey, sometimes us newbies get lucky too!
Rich
@ Nemo: Last year was my 1st with EN, joined in February, and only got about 8 weeks of OS before needing to transition to my HIM plan. I have limited power data from that timeframe, as I didn't have my powertap for most of it. While I didn't expect to see crazy jumps every test, I still feel like I'm nowhere near my ceiling in cycling.
@ Linda: thanks. I hope that I don't come off as being in despair. I'm frustrated, and overanalytical (bad combination). To keep it in perspective, it's still just a hobby, and it's being compartmentalized as one. I'd just like to actually see the return on a rather significant investment of energy. I hear your thoughts about peaking. I'm just having a really hard time believing that I peaked after 8 weeks of OS, with a 6 watt gain, back to what I could do last summer, and that was as good as it gets. Doesn't seem consistent with the experience of others through the OS.
@ Rich P: I'll look at the seat tilt, etc, but I've always had a pretty wide area of comfort on my road bike. It's never mattered as much as it does on a tri bike for me in the past. Of course, I also never had a powermeter in the past...
A little bit of additional data
Up until this point, I was doing fine. After that point, I had the following:
In addition, most of the power clinic workouts and VO2 stuff has been tough. I didn't make the target on a single interval in the Power Clinic (all 5'max power level stuff). On 2/3, I also (probably foolishly, and against Rich's advice) did a Vdot test. Crushed it, and took another ~30 seconds off my time. This helped the psyche a lot, but probably didn't do anything for the recovery process.
So, my working hypothesis is that I did way too much in a short span at the end of December, paid the price throughout January and February, and that my last 2 weeks of semi-rest wasn't enough or well-directed (ie. still doing too much on the bike for a 'rest' week).
Thanks for the help! This self-coached athlete still has a lot to learn!
Mike
I was in pretty bad shape at about week 15 of the OS last year, I knew I should stand down but I don't know how. Lucky for me I had a 10 day vacation planned and had to take a break from the bike. I still ran a little and put on about 5 pounds but it was really good I did it.
If so, what do I do about it? I'm really bad at being sedentary, kinda get grumpy, and start eating way too much. Is there a way to 'actively recover' from where I'm at?
I hear ya, Mike. Here are some things I think about or have actually done:
Swim - Helps you keep the calorie burn going
Bike outside with others. This might be a nice weekend to do that
Ski - Downhill or cross country - I'm going downhill skiing this weekend.
Yoga.
House project or yardwork. I did some project in December and was embarassed at my decline in upper body strength.
Just a few thoughts. I can't wait until we can talk about this time during our training at dinner on Thurs before LP.
Dave
Hey Mike,
You've gotten a ton of good advice from the Team. I think we see comments like yours with the peeps in their second season of EN training and with nearly anyone in the Feb-March time frame. I think Halligan is right: I think you're going to see a big difference when you get outside. Until that time, doing less, like Linda said, is never a bad thing. And, just remember, IMLP is 21wks away. That's a lloonnggg time. You still have a lot of work, and improvement, to make especially when you get outside and train with others.
And then there's also the run; I think high-quality run gains don't allow for commensurate bike development.
P
You don't sound despairing at all! Questions are good, and it is SO helpful to have someone dissect this kind of thing. At least I think so.
The above comment is my whole point. YOU are YOU--the comparisons don't really apply. That's where I think one can get more confused that need be. Just focus on YOU--your reaction to training, how your body is feeling, what you can and cannot do, your bike fit, etc. Use the input from this great team to help you put together your analysis, but don't get into the comparison trap. Your milage may vary.
I read your posts LP (followed your links above...I'm behind) and everyone elses as well on the topic. Outstanding insight. The Haus is truly a great learning tool. Thanks to everyone on the EN Team I'm new to bike training (running since 1983...many marathons and ultras and short sprint and oly tris) and new to power meter/PowerTap (bought it through the Haus in December). But, thanks to you guys (and EN's power webinar and "Training and Racing with a Power Meter" by Hunter Allen and Andrew Coggan, and the wattage group I'm learning quickly. Read everything I can find. For both motivation and to learn as much as possible.
I've been battling my own demons in the shadows. My FTP actually went down during the last testing. I felt devastated for about a week. It was eating at me daily. Then I told myself after reading an EN post, hey, it was my first test on the trainer and it seems from others' experiences that this is normal. Wow, I now truly appreciate the meaning of pain cave. I felt like I was short changing myself by not suffering in the pain cave after reading how many of you were suffering through the tough workouts. Strange, but true. Then the rains came and I've remained indoors since the holidays even though most days I could train outdoors. I felt some good old fashioned suffering would do me some good. Well, be careful for what you wish for because you just might get it. Now, for this final test I plan to do it outside once again. The last test I dropped 6 points on my FTP when testing on the trainer. What a letdown. But, after reading some posts about much greater drops indoors I didn't feel so bad about just losing 6 points. But, getting even that was BRUTALLY HARD. And, I've had difficulty hitting the target % on more workouts than I'd like. Like many I've found that after doing the VO2 work (30/30s), which I find refreshing, when doing the FTP work it's hard to hang in there at the target % power for the duration of the interval (i.e. 2 x 20'). TORTURE! I will say that it has gotten a tad bit easier. Not a lot. Finally, I came to grips with it and moved on hoping eventually I'll experience that "breakthrough performance" that makes it all worth the the hard training. And, I still believe it'll come eventually. As the saying goes, "the more you sweat in training the less you bleed in battle." "WORK works!"
I've had to dig deeper than I've ever dug to get some of these workouts done. And, yes, I'm guilty of not listening to what my body tells me. I actively tune out negative thoughts. I've pushed on even when I couldn't hit the target zones. it's not pretty. This is my first OS in the Haus and I'm learning a lot from this experience. Like I mentioned earlier I started bike training last May, then, joined the EN team in October. I'm learning a lot from all of you. Thank you.
Some workouts I've had to cut the 85% stuff, or a portion of it. Other times I've just backed it down and finished with a significantly lower % of power (BTW, I've just read that isn't the way to do it either.). I need to learn when to throw in the towel when the workout goes south. I'm no good at that. I'm stubborn. Other times I've backed off the interval and spun for a few seconds to regain my composure and continue.
Anyway, here's that TRI-DRS post I that prompted this post. It resonates with me. I hope you find something in it for you.
------------------------------------------------------
So maybe your sitting somewhere right now and things are bleak on the training/racing front. Perhaps an almost cruel combination of life events have conspired to relegate this thing of ours to a backseat in your life.
Workouts are missed, money is spent in different (and sometimes, ugh, better places), relationships need to be nurtured and cared for and that little voice, you know the one that you are able to mute when the racing and training is going well, is starting to whisper a bit more loudly in your ear.
'You're slow'
'You're not fit and this feeling is eternal'
'You'll never be fast again'
'Why train? You're not getting any faster'
'It's all over. Pack it in'
'You'll always be injured'
Ignore it.
It lies.
And do you want to make it go away?
Well, do what Teddy Roosevelt recommended, do what you can, with what you have, where you are.
Out the house - walk around the block - ride the bike somewhere anywhere -
put on a tshirt from the race that you dominated (at least in your head)
And most importantly, tell us about it.
Tell us that it's hard and that you're suffering under the weight. Tell us that you sometimes feel like you don't belong here anymore because you're not the person you were. Tell us about the person that you want to be. Tell us about it enough and the odds are that you will be that person.
For all the chest-thumping bravado and caricatures that we sometimes fall into you'll not find a more sympathetic, caring and warm place to vicariously live your training life than here.
It's March 1st. Whether this blasted Winter likes it or not, Spring is on the way.
Go Get 'Em,
Brian Gatens
--------------------------------------
Don't give up the ship. Hang in there and you will reap the rewards. Best of luck in your training!
Jay
Hey Jay!
One thing we really need to call out before the next OS, is DO NOT TRY TO HOLD OUTDOOR WATTS INDOORS ON THE TRAINER!!!! A 10-15% lower number indoors is perfectly normal IF you try to hold those outdoor watts....it's a sure fire way to--at best--dig yourself a chasm. At worse, be completely mentally undone by the "downturn." Don't forget to point that out and chime in next year!
PS, if you are only down 6 indoors, likely you have a nice FT present to unwrap when you get back outside.
Will do (chime in) for the next OS. That's a good "lesson learned" to pass on. ("Lessons Learned" WIKI?) It's a VERY DIFFICULT, and extremely humbling, one to learn by experience. I thought I was gonna die in my garage that day. Seriously. I had to sit there for about 5 mintues to get up the energy before I could actually dismount the bike. That's how bad it was. Definately a character builder!
I sure could use a FTP boost when I go back outside. Would be a very nice reward.
I think the body can only progress linearly for so long before it reaching a tipping point. That tipping point can be a downward slope in performance especially if continued training is pushed (esp. intensity or long duration). The connective tissues can only take so much before they push back (IMO). The golgi tendon organ is a great example. You can train the GTO to inhibit firing and allow greater strength increases but it takes time as it is a protective organ for the musculoskeletal system. I would think the cardiovascular and enzymatic systems of the body may have the same innate intellegence. If you are hammering up again the most power/strength your tendons, ligaments and cartilage have ever seen in a specific motion (ie: turning bike cranks)...maybe you need to plateau for a bit to allow adaptation in those tissues.
My best FTP test was also in Dec. I had just installed a Specialized Romin seat and was also a Nov OS start. It might just be that your body only likes 12-14 weeks of OS intensity before it balks. I am guessing that is my breaking point also as I have found myself in the same rut on the bike...on the trainer. My pVO2max increased during the power clinic by FTP went down.
I took most of the last 2 weeks off other than some road rides. When I get on the trainer my brain just says "30 mins is all you're getting out of me".
My guess is you will see much better results on the road. Give your body time to adapt.
Worth noting is if your testosterone levels are good. Simple blood test. If you are at the lower end of the normal range...that's not going to allow you to build the bike strength.
I wrote something in the power clinic primarily for you on Sunday...knowing you and I were both lamenting the loss of FTP and ability during the clinic. There was more to the story but I will give you the cliffnotes as I already typed this earlier then deleted it accidently:
4.5 hour ride on TT bikes with 2 guys that always kick my butt...for the last 2 years they have been beating my brains in on the flats and especially the hills. I did most of the pulling at 23-26 mph @ 80-85%% with my norm wattage of the entire ride @ 70%. I discovered I had brake rub for a good part of the ride when we stopped to water the local grasses. Being that my skewer wouldn't hold the rear wheel in place with higher torque efforts I had to apply smooth, non-standing, wattages. At 3:15ish into the ride we hit a 18-20 min climbing section where 4 cyclists passed us as we were sitting up and eating. My friend took off after them so the hammerfest was on. I passed one of my buddies while seated, he was standing and passed all but the fastest 2. Again...we were on TT bikes and I couldn't stand to climb.
Mike...get out on the road and enjoy it. You will be doing just fine once away from the trainer and you give your body a break from grinding at VI of 1.0000 for 20 min intervals.
This does beg the question; Should we be doing 6 wks of LSD to enjoy the scenery then back to FTP and VO2 work?
Vince
Mike,
They make an abrasive compound to help the carbon grab better. Also, I put a strip of black electrical tape on the seatpost about 3 mm above the clamp. If the tape ever touches the clamp then I know the seatpost has slid down.
Vince
I think the PMC is missing a metric that allows us to forecast the eventual downward spiral. It might be something as simple as knowing that 12 wks of focused intensity is your tipping point. Of course, you will only know that once you have crashed headlong into that brick wall. I have spent many hours looking over my 2008 season PMC to determine how to avoid the crash and burn I suffered that took 6 months to recover from. I don't see it on the PMC.
Vince
I rode on a closed, National Park road uphill grade of 4-8% for 5 miles. My watts were all over the place; terrain changes, cadence changes, focus came and went when I started looking at the views. I really didn't want to do a 2x20. Snow everywhere, completely deserted. Saw a huge hawk, then what looked like major bear scat, and then, like a vision, I saw in the distance a figure running up the road. No way! This is my road! As I approached, I saw that this was a very fit woman, a very strong runner, flying up what, on a bike is a legit climb. I thought I was hallucinating. As I approached, I noticed, wow, she's really cute.....Desiree???, Wanna train together??...coffee after??. My cadence jumped, my heart rate jumped, my watts really jumped. (I had to be killing it as I went past her. Look fast, look fast.) Gave her a little wave, kind of a "Hey, strong work sister, I'm gonna brick after this....."
A change of venue and scenery does wonders. 17 weeks of intervals indoors? Shutter Island, baby.
Mike, I don't know where I'm going with this, except that maybe, watts lie. Lies, damn lies, and statistics. You're killing the run, it detracts from most mortals' bike performance, and bike trainer riding is simulated strength, like lifting weights on machines. You get out on the road, and in the races, and then you see who's who. Work works. I gleen from your posts that you're very analytical. Don't be paralyzed by your analysis and don't get burnt out by the OS. Be cool. Spring is on the way. Good luck.
cm
We need more CM outdoor riding stories. I love it!
Dave
Starting about the 2nd week of January, I don't think I've hit a single power target on anything other than a few 30/30's. Not one single power clinic workout. Not one single FTP interval. I've come close, holding in the 95-99% range on a few (very few, mostly recently). But in November and December, I was putting out mid-to-high 240's on my weekly FTP intervals. Now, when I finish with an average power of 237, I'm high-fiving myself for not falling apart.
-----
Mike some additional thoughts that from the above and your additional data.
You did three tests the power clinic 12/18, FTP 12/20 with an 8 watt increase and a vdot 12/22 in 5 days. From what I recall all those in the power clinic stated the 5' & 20' test felt even harder than the 2X20. You followed up that insanity with a vdot and blew that one out of the water.
After 12/22 you hit a workout and then the decline and fatigue started. Factor in Christmas/New year stuff going on and all these workouts you probably over extended yourself right there in December. This trend continued in to the power clinic in January and were hammering like a maniac to make the target power levels which you mention you did not make. So three times a week over the power clinic (I assume you did not miss a workout) you were overextending youself in to the trying to hit those numbers.
Add in the ill advised run test 2/3 (Not sure if Rich gives a kick in the nuts for stuff like this as the run in usually Coach P but it is you bike that is suffering
)
I'd definitely go with you did way to much in a short period. You probably could have recovered from all this but you kept doing the workouts after 12/22 until the power clinc.
Now what to do is a hard call as you don't have another hobby that is seditary. I could play a few computer games for a week and be fine. I go with the swimming or look at something that is going to allow you to recover better. That is don't go out and to 50k crossing country skiing.
As others have said I think when you get out of transition and on the road you will see the gains from the OS.
Gordon
@ all: thank you. Your support means a ton to me
@Jay, your quote means a lot, and while it wasn't from an EN post, I feel that it captures a lot of what I love about this team.
@Dave, I'm looking forward to the ribbing I hope to deserve at that dinner. Need to find a way to make it up your way to try to hang on your wheel some time.
@Linda, wisdom as usual. Thanks for the reminder of the 'self' in self-coached athlete
@Gordon, I'm not sure that I realized just how much I'd done until sitting down composing that reply earlier today. It's remarkable how easy it is to go over the edge.
@Chris, wow, sounds transcendant. I do look forward to those kinds of moments getting outside again. Way to look good on the pass.
@Matt, thanks for the thoughts. It's tough to learn how to not be all geeked out. Guess I've got a week to practice.
@Vince, I saw your post on Sunday, and wanted to respond. But I wasn't sure what to say. I think it took the process of writing this thread to start to figure out where my head was. I appreciate your thoughts, and am inspired to see you coming out the other side of this. I look forward to seeing your gains going forward. Separately, how are you liking the Romin? I don't have a lot of experience with other saddles, but so far I'm liking it.
@ Rich, 21 weeks is absolutely a long time, and I'm in full-on listen mode. In the plan I trust, and am heading full on into shutting it down. I still intend to make good on my Starbucks side of the heads/tails bet. You clearly owe me one of the famous kicks in Placid this year. Next time you ask "you could do it, but why do you feel the need to?" maybe I'll actually be smart enough to listen.
@Patrick, thanks. Week off, and then 8 weeks of OS it is. I apologize for not bringing it up last night, but it didn't feel right just before your presentation, and then I had to get going and you were running late to office hours.
I look forward to providing an update post-mojo return. Thanks again!
I concur!
Mike -
You're worried about what your training effort levels indicate about your racing capability. I would echo what David H said: find a race to test yourself in, either bike only or tri (preferred). Until you are out there amongst others working as hard as they can, you will not really know how your training has been going. You need a sprint or Oly distance tri, or a 40-50 minute bike time trial. We're training to race better, not training to test better. Go into the race with no goals, just go as hard as you can, and see what happens - that's the best test of whether the training is working. If it's a tri, slam the bike and find out what you have left over for the run. That's what I do in early season races (usually duathlon), and it either buoys me up, or lets me know what kind of work I have to focus on in the mid season. E.g., if I've had good run sessions and medicore bike sessions, and then discover that my run is weak in the race, that reminds me I have mroe work to do on the bike. But if I can run well, then I have confidence in my bike fitness.
P