Unfortunately, the only pics I took while in St. Louis were posters regarding cancer surgery (not something I think everyone would want me to post ). I forgot my camera when I went to Pappys BBQ restaurant, and ate the combo platter (1/2 rack of ribs, brisket, and some pulled pork, along with sweet potatoe fries, and baked beans). The place was featured on Man vs. Food, and it was every bit as awesome as it looked on the show!!!
Now, 6 days into my 7 days of rest, I am finally coming around. Yesterday, I felt exhausted, lousy, and just generally irritable (not good timing, as we had 8 girls over for a birthday party for my daughter). I was able to hang in there and be a good dad, but it took every ounce of mental energy I had.
Last night, I fell asleep before 8. Slept until 7:30 this morning. Finally, for the first time in a while, I almost feel normal.
Tomorrow, back on the bike! P, if I am going to repeat the first 8 weeks of the OS, should I start off tomorrow with the FTP test, or ease back in a bit?
Mike--reread what you wrote. To moi, you don't sound ready yet to be hitting FT tests and jumping back in headlong. There is no magic to "a week" off. You might need another two days off, then a week or so of shorter, easier workouts. You need to honestly assess where you are over the next few days as you begin workouts. You want to be SUSTAINABLY recovered from the hole you were in. Maybe you are, but if you find yourself sliding back (and you may), hedge it until you are really ready. Not hedging it is how some of us toasted a whole season, and I don't wish it on anyone.
Atta boy for taking the rest. Not everyone would, as you well know.
Thanks, Linda, that's definitely the same way I was thinking. I don't really need to do an FTP test right now, nor do I think I need to jump into 2 x 20 on 4' or any other.
That being said, I wanted to confirm that I understood not only the literal recommendation (jump back in at week 1), but also the intent. I can be somewhat literal, to my own detriment.
Well, I took my one week off, rested hard. Didn't do anything, though I was on business travel for a few days, which means that I drank a bit too much and didn't quite get the quality of sleep I'd like.
Got back on the workout schedule a week ago. First bike was 3 x 13' @ Z4 on the bike. I swagged my FTP at about 240, just below where I had been hitting before the difficulties. I hit all three in the high 230's, and was happy.
Tuesday night was also the start of using some of Leigh's new tricks for trying to loosen up my hips. Great tricks, but definitely left me sore (yeah, I can even overdo it on foam rollering...) Wednesday was 2 x 1mi Z4 run, and I got outside for the first time in a long time. The legs weren't feeling fresh, and the pace was a bit tough to hold, but I was able to do it. By Thursday, I had some DOMS setting in, probably from the muscle work, possibly from Tuesday's bike. The workout was 2 x 8' Z4, and I was able to hold both intervals slightly above 240 (first intervals over 240 in 2 months). Saturday was another 2 x 8', and again, I was able to hold mid-240's for each of the 8 minutes. Sunday, life caught up, and I wasn't able to get the run in.
So, where am I at? I don't know. I'll be honest, if I had to drop an FTP test (based on RPE of these last 3 workouts), I think 240 is probably about the highest I could hope for, which is dissapointing, having put in a TON of work over the last two months. Part of me is kinda wondering if I haven't entirely rested myself enough. OTOH, the legs are pushing a bit more watts for the first time in a while, so the other part of me is just figuring on being patient, taking a week or two of this, and seeing where things land.
Since I seem to have a pretty significant blind spot to the right thing to do for myself, I'd really appreciate any observations. It seems so easy to figure out the right thing to do when looking at someone else, yet then I just get kinda dumb looking at myself...
We're in the midst of a big shift this week. Longer days and warmer and drier weather are directly ahead. My suggestion would be to unhitch your bike from the trainer (you may need some wd-40 to loosen the grip the trainer has had since Nov )
F#$! your FTP right now. Just ride. See how you feel and see what your speed is based on similar rides from last year.
Attack a few hills, just go out and have fun.
I hear ya on overdoing the stretching. I did that a few weeks ago and then went overboard on some hammy strengthening last week. I'm such a dumbass sometimes.
You're on the right track. I'm in a similar boat with my running. Good runs, then ones I struggle with. On the good ones, I know I'll PR LP. On the bad ones, I'm ready to withdraw my registration. Yes, I'm a bit of an extremist.
I have a hard time reading people over the internet but here's my nickels worth for the 3rd time. You might get a quarter out of me yet.
Given the hole that you dug yourself in one week may not have been enough but it seems to have helped tremendously. Travel, lack of sleep and drinking tend to kick my butt so your recovery week was not optimal but that's life.
You seem to be hitting the targets my comment would be to resist the urge to push. Your FTP is set at 240 hit the 95-100% and call it a day. There is no need to push that extra to 'see what you can do' . I would think if you are still in need of recovery or on the edge don't push more do a little less. Here's my thought process if you are reaching for mid 240's say 245 that's only 1.02 not really difficult or much of a stretch, but if you were to hit say 97% that's only 233 watts. So you are pushing an extra 12 watts for your intervals. I know 97% is not what you want to do and understand the desire to push after 19 weeks of the OS resist it and just do the work at 95-100.
For reference hit Matt blog about his foot injury and how that time off was beneficial to his training.
My experience as a 1st year OS member was that the shorter intervals even up to 10' it was easier to hold above FTP, but there was a cost that crept up over the weeks as I challenged myself getting 1.08 even 1.1 on a few intervals. Due to this I had to shut it down for a couple rest days in the first 8 weeks and I was not even running. I'm a beginner and not much base coming off the couch for me so take that into consideration.
Here's my armchair analysis in a nutshell. Do you need another week off, possibly. Given you numbers last week I'd more likely say that you can continue training and curtail any extra efforts, possibly even aiming for 95% on the bike and just hitting the run stuff. What works for me is to try to getin an extra hour of sleep for most of the week and a long sleep on the weekend if possible.
Other things that are just random thoughts now. How's the nutrition? Ensure that you get food for recovery after the workouts.
It's like I could have written that post when I was in my hole. I feel for you, buddy. I know I'm older, a hardly talented athlete, and a slow recover-er, but it took me a lot longer to dig out of the hole than I thought it would. Last year it was so deep it cost me the season. This year I nipped it, but it was still a solid 4 weeks. I worked out after week 1, but it was a long, slow climb back. I'm still not hitting the FT like I was in the middle of the OS, but I'm working on it and it's coming back slowly. I know the feeling--all that work and then to slide backwards.Ugh. I didn't understand it all for a long time, but now I know that I went over my personal threshold of what I could absorb. I am a lot clearer on what my parameters are, but the lesson was tough to take.
I know one thing, there is no way on this earth I could ever have gone from 20-weeks of the OS, one week transition, and into Race Prep. My hat is off to those who can do that, and continue to nail the training and improve. How that is done, I will never know.
This is interesting to follow. Keep us posted as the weeks tick by.
thanks for your perspective. I can assure you that there's only one person in this house I'd dare let call you a "hardly talented athlete", and that's you. But I think you're giving yourself too little credit.
I have a follow-up question for you. Did you ever see any benefit from the work you did which got you into the hole in the first place? Was there ever a point, 4, 8, 12 weeks later, where you were riding along one day, saying, "gosh, I am getting faster. It must have just taken me this long to absorb all of it" ? Or, would you have been better off never having done that work in the first place?
I'm asking, trying to understand a bit here. You see, I do know my body, have absorbed some epic training in the past, and am still young enough to expect to recover well (though maybe not as well as when I was 20). I would not describe any of the training I did in Nov, Dec, Jan, as "Crash Training", or high risk training. And I was pretty close to hitting workout targets for most of January and February, I just never saw any increases. I had my first difficulties before the Power Clinic even begain, and was still pretty close to most of the Power Clinic workouts, though I never actually hit the target on any of them.
So, by that logic, I'm expecting that, as we always say here, "work works." I'm expecting that I should see some benefit from this work. Maybe I'm just being a bit naive, but I feel like I've worked hard enough to have earned more than 5-6 watts of increase this off-season. I kinda still believe that those watts are on their way, they just haven't gotten here yet.
If taking the next 2, 3, 4, even 6 weeks unstructured is what it takes to be ready to do Race Prep, I have no problem with that. Whatsoever. Placid is my goal this year, and I'm prepared to do the work, and race with whatever fitness I can bring. This will be my very first IM, and I'm not defining success by finishing time, or how many watts I have in Gear 2. I'm defining success by doing enough training to be prepared for the rigors of the race in Race Prep, and showing up executing as smartly as possible. I'm quite confident that if I do that, I'll be happy with my time, too.
I'm just having a really hard time wrapping my head around the idea that we say "work works", but there seems to be an "except if you go a bit too far, and then not only does it not work (ie. might as well not have done it), but it actually sets you back". That doesn't make sense to me (having never experienced it). So I'm wondering about your thoughts.
My $.02....you've crossed the barrier of being too analytical and you are a slave to the numbers. When they'r going up, numbers can give you a mental boost....but when they're going down, watch out!
My Rx for you is to take the next few weeks and have fun. Don't bring your power meter or garmin with you. Enjoy the Spring, and enjoy exercising again. Because this is currently not working for you.
I watched you through out the Nov OS and the Power Clininc. I know you've made amazing gains, you just need to let your body absorb and your mind realize what you've accomplished. Not having the numbers in front of you will allow you to enjoy your fitness gains.
Mike - Sounds like the rest has worked for you, and what you need is some confirmation (apart from those nasty indoor power readings) that you do have some juice in the legs. I'd echo what Dave and Larry are saying - Just get outsdide and ride, Dude! - and add a little fillip. Give yourself a day off, say Friday. Scout out a good 6-8 mile course you can ride hard without interruption. On Saturday, go and ride it out and back as a time trial, but (again, Larry's suggestion) don't use your PM. Instead, see how you feel, and see how fast you are actually going. Speed in a time trial is the true test of how well the training has worked.
@Linda, your comment #1 was truely a patch of wisdom , OK groan all you like, but better a poor joke, than no joke @ all!
@Dave, I know it sucks not seeing for FTP go up as we all want but with your vdor going up like a rocket it's not all bad. I was looking at some stuff on the web and found this, that should cheer you up,
"The good news is that 90% of the people riding your bike split WILL be
walking or shuffling a great deal of the run (trust us, we've seen it). You, as
the EN athlete, will be different. You'll be running while your peers are
walking. This is where you will go faster on race day: not by riding a faster
bike split but by not slowing down on the run."
I believe it was written by a couple of guys call Rich and Patrick or it may have just been one you Patrick Rich
You are so going chew those people up and spit them out on the run, your rock kill figures will be really impressive.
More seriously I think backing off fully will really help (I lost nothing during my 2 weeks out sick).
@ Larry, Al, Robert: thanks. I appreciate your insight. I hope I didn't come off as fretting about where I'm at. I'm pretty comfortable in the situation I'm in, and have been confident that the hard work will pay off. My post above is in response to Linda's comment about 'losing a season' and never really seeing gains. It sounds like there's a line one can go over, where doing the work sets you back, in which case, "work doesn't work". Just trying to learn more about that, becuase it's not a phenomenon I understand. I certainly hope that I've avoided it (and think I have), but right now, I don't know what I don't know. So I ask questions.
I appreciate your patience with me, and willingness to keep helping me figure stuff out!
@Mike--yeah that lost season was tough. A lot of it was also the mental piece of getting so fried and not recovering from that head space. The body may have been ready to do more, but the mind wasn't an ally. So in the end, because the two were not in sync, I was unable to move forward. PLEASE don't think that will happen to you. I don't want to scare anyone, or mess with your head. I'm a sample size of one. My crash and burn was about ME making bad training choices, ME going too hard for too long, and not understanding that I was doing that. It was all ME and my mistakes--not the training here. Just had to put that out there. I did not self-coach myself very well, and that was the fall out.
Todd, thanks for the thoughts. While I much prefer to be on my tri bike in general, I was kinda tired of it by the end of last season, so I've done the whole OS on my road bike. All on the trainer, but all on the road bike. I'm really looking forward to being back on the tri bike in a few weeks, to see if switching things up helps.
I asked about your age because us OA's out there don't recover from intensity as quickly as the young uns and it throws us a beat down if we're not very careful. But given that you're in prime time age wise and you run very well and the past data says you're much stronger than you're currently performing, I start to think about the mental/ emotional. I will admit to being a strong proponent of the notion that where the head goes the body follows, so I wonder if there isn't something else draining you. The winter interval sessions on the trainer bring into sharp focus what you've got mentally and where you are. They force one to think, okay, why am I sucking today when all systems should be a go? It is usually some emotional distraction- kids, job, clients, relationship stuff. Something that stresses you out. That's why the outside bike love breaks are important, imo. The bike becomes a bad object otherwise. And the little dictator, the friggin' power meter. Dethrone it.
Not to put you on the couch, just running down the checklist.
Yep. I can vouch for the "beat down" part, Chris. I think I've dug myself a hole during the OS. Doing the workouts "as prescirbed". Chasing the numbers on the meter. I'm not recovering like I would expect. I even took it easy for the last 2 weeks by skipping some of the workouts and wasn't enough (of course I've made up for the slacking...more on that later). I ran a St Patrick's Day Half Marathon this last Saturday and ran 6 minutes slower than I ran the same race last year. Granted I didn't dig deep this year because I've been so drained. I even talked to others for the first 3 or 4 miles (warming up) so it wasn't all because of exhaustion. I'm moving outside (getting off the trainer) this week. I did today's workout on the trainer, but that'll probably be the last for a long while. I didn all of my bike workouts on the trainer after the holidays. Just torturing myself (if it doesn't kill you it makes you stronger....or not.). I started eating healthier (losing weight) the last week of January. I've lost 3 pounds. Today I couldn't hold the pace during the run, which has happened a few times, but I'm still recovering from this last weekend. My tri club was doing an "internal" duathlon "training/race" Sunday, the day after the half marathon and I didn't want to miss it so I participated. I didn't redline or anything, but it just added to the fatigue. So, being in week 20 at the end of my OS I'm planning on taking a full 2 weeks active rest before moving on. And, I'm going to use my half mary time this last weekend for this Sunday's "10K TT or Half Marathon" option. And, here's the craziest part of it all: I'm running a mountain marathon this coming Sunday. I had committed to running it with a friend a while back so I don't want to pull out, but I am definately going to take it easy during the marathon. It's a beautiful course so I just plan to enjoy the sites and run easy (haven't done that very often since my OS started in November). So, yes, it's my fault. I'm the sole perpetrator of this crime. DON'T TRY THIS AT HOME.
did you check your resting heart rate to see if it was elevated? usually a sign that your getting sick or at least fighting something.
Of course all that tells you is that standing down is the right thing to do.
Tonight I was on week 18's 2 x 20's and it felt like the best bike work ot in weeks, including probably the 2 weeks before I stood down and last week which was my 1st week back.
In addition to fatigue do you suffer from any allergies this time of year? My allergy symptoms are fatigue: both mentally and physically. Just a thought as I am unable to mentally still sit on my FTP number from Dec after really backing off for 3+ weeks now including only 1 run/week.
I tried to hold my FTP for 20 mins yesterday and my brain quit at 15 mins. My HR said I had more to give by 6 bpm but I just couldn't get my brain around it. I even dropped to the intermediate plan to reduce load.
OK, so a few weeks out, I thought I'd post an update on where I am. I think I could still use a bit of collective wisdom on what's going on.
After my rest week, repeating the first 2 weeks of the OS felt pretty good. I was able to hold a threshold effort for the prescribed durations, and the numbers were in the range of where I'd expect. Did a few 2-3 x 8' interval sessions, got some good Z3 work in. Overall, not too bad.
Last week, I was very active, but wasn't able to work out whatsoever, due to travel, time changes, and some skiing over the weekend. Suffice it to say that, while I was not out biking or running, nor was I resting.
This week, in my hybrid OS / General Prep world, I had an FTP test up on tuesday. I was feeling pretty good, and wasn't skeered of the 20' intervals. So I went for it. I was able to do the entire 2 x 20' (2'), well paced, at an appropriate effort level. The first one felt a bit too easy, the second one took a lot of mental focus through about 15 minutes, and then was physically tough to push, as it should be. So, overall, ignoring any numbers, etc., it was a well-executed test, and I think it was representative of my abilities on the day. I was satisfied. Test resulted in a 42' Pnorm of 233 watts.
Now, from a numbers perspective, I'd have liked to have seen higher. That's basically the same numbers I saw on the first OS test, after not doing much of anything for 2 months. It's 5% below where I was at the end of December. But, it is what it is. I've rested, I've backed off, I've trained responsibly, and this is what I've got right now.
So, it's time to reset the FTP expectations to 233, and wait until I get outside to see where I'm at outside. I'm also going to make the switch to the tri bike in the next week.
Overall, my conclusions from this not-so-grand experiment are: -I'm still not really sure what I did to cause this. I never felt like I was doing anything all that aggressive. -Unfortunately, I'm starting to come to the conclusion that there are conditions where work does not work. All the thoughts of 'you just need time to absorb it' do not seem to have played out over the last month. I'm left weaker now than I was in January. -As I get close to the 'reality point' of the calendar, the question of 'why' matters less and less. To quote Bill Belichick, "it is what it is"
As an over-analytical type-A, my process of trying to understand what's going on will continue. Beyond simple overtraining, I have a few operating hypotheses, revolving around diet, the christmas run challenge, the added fatigue of VO2 work, and bike geometry. I can't rule out any of them, and I can't pinpoint any either.
Overall, my conclusions from this not-so-grand experiment are:
-I'm still not really sure what I did to cause this. I never felt like I was doing anything all that aggressive.
-Unfortunately, I'm starting to come to the conclusion that there are conditions where work does not work. All the thoughts of 'you just need time to absorb it' do not seem to have played out over the last month. I'm left weaker now than I was in January.
-As I get close to the 'reality point' of the calendar, the question of 'why' matters less and less. To quote Bill Belichick, "it is what it is"
Nothing really to add. But I am glad to hear that you had a promising effort after your (sort of) rest. You helped me a ton with the approach to pacing a vDot test (I pace better, but still no real improvement) because of your ability to break down what worked for you which was a result of your uber-analysis. You'll get to some conclusions whether they be data driven or not on this.
I'm with you on wondering whether there might be a point at which work doesn't work. I've had no movement in my FTP nor my vDot since October. I struggle against all hope to hold those numbers that I legitimately achieved then in my current workouts, and I sure as heck won't even bother with testing. I'm training hard, and I know I'm fit, but mostly I'm just tired, and over it. My "one thing" is going to be pretty dog-eared and tattered by the time I pull it out on 5/1. It's already rather well worn.
Thankfully my race sim a few weeks ago went well and really did jazz me and boost my confidence for the race. It helped me realize that I will make it through the day feeling good. After that I admittedly stopped worrying about the numbers. I do my work to the best of my ability, don't get me wrong there, but I finally reached that point of accepting that I'm not going to see improvement at this point. That's not cool for me as a striver who always wants to improve performance,but I'm in survival mode and don't have the energy to care. Gotta focus on staying healthy and getting to the start & finish.
This is a very unscientific observation, but your skiing activity sounds a lot like the week I had during the Snowmageddon Blizzard of 2010 we had in January. After a couple of days being stuck inside with only my bike to keep me workout company, some snow shoveling between the bizarre snow storm 2-fer we got, and some core work, I did the obvious thing, and hit the road for skiing in the fresh snow piled up on the local ski mountain/pimple. In my head, I chalked up the day of skiing as a workout. However, later on, I could tell the effect was very different from the usual training regimen. My muscles were beat up in a lot of new places, but I didn't see any benefit in my running or biking a couple days later that I thought might have come from my day on the slopes. (I think this result is a close cousin to RnP's specificity observation on weight lifting etc.) So all I had to show for my day of skiing was an awesome day in the powder (which is not bad at all.) Basically, based on my very shaky experience, I wouldn't beat yourself up about having a less than stellar test after your active-ski week. Because in my humble skier's opinion, a day, or hour, or minute of skiing is never time lost.
Mike: Thank you for sharing your experience. I'm sorta in the same boat; and your thoughts and observations are helping me out. As to what caused this...It's likely not one thing, but a multifactoral cause. Those "forced" days off from training due to work and family obligations are not restful. I've never thought that they contribute much to recovery for training---at least not mentally. And the FTP decrease...At what point does one cross the line from recovery and absorbing the training to enable greater fitness to "over-recovering" and deconditioning? Or is there not really a line that's crossed and that drop in functional metrics part of recovery? I don't any good answers. However, I do have confidence---faith ---that all our training and recovery efforts will result in a fitness gain even if it's not seen today.
Thanks for the replies! I appreciate any observations on what I may be missing, as I've clearly demonstrated that I have some blind spots.
@Olivia, I totally relate to the frustration of being a striver, and not seeing movement. Fortunately, I'm no longer all worked up about it. I now feel like a detective, picking up scents, but still not 'hot on the trail'.
@Eric, as far as I'm concerned, a minute skiing is worth about 5 good minutes doing most anything else. You do bring up one other interesting thing, which I'd nearly forgotten about, which is the impact of snow-shoveling on LSS (Life Stress Score). There was a period back a couple of months where I think I shoveled out my driveway 4 times in a week, which is an hour of pretty significant work. Gotta go back and check the dates of that, to see how they lined up. I also appreciate the words on the test. I'm not worried about it at all (I'm actually thrilled that I was able to get one done, with consistent output, regardless of the #'s).
My working hypothesis right now is this:
It's really hard to see gains or work to your full potential when you're tired/fatigued (this is the time when work may not work)
Tracking TSS is only one picture of "fatigue". It has different flavors whether your focused on Z2, FTP or VO2.
Lifestyle fatigue is even harder to measure (ie. impact of snow shoveling, late night out, etc)
Other non-exertion related activities can contribute to fatigue, like calorie restriction
I'm a really bad judge of my own levels of overall fatigue
It's #5 that I'm currently trying to think about most. I honestly never would have told you that I was exhausted in January. But I think I might have been, and just didn't notice it. I've kinda gotten used to a chronic level of fatigue after my son was born almost 3 years ago (really bad sleeper for a long time), so that being rested is an unusual state for me. May need to consider some other tracking metrics (resting HR, others), and am actually thinking about this Restwise software (though pretty far from pulling the trigger at this point).
Personally, I am wondering of the EN protocol helped me to reach what is my full potential at over 40 and then all I can do is maintain. I have been able to breach last year's FTP and VDOT for a few short weeks each time. But perhaps beyond that I am digging myself into a hole.
I have decided to work at being content with my current achievement since I know I am very fit. To be sure, if a glimmer of improvement or hope were to shine through, I'd jump at it. But I am not sure that I have much further to go.
Hey Mike, sorry I don't have anything to add, but I'm really glad you are continuing to dicuss this and share your thoughts. I am also a horrible judge of my fatigue level...I pretty much just push until I bump into the brick wall, but like you I'm trying to learn.
I think you nailed a key point the RnP have mentioned before, all TSS is not created equal. Power Clinic VO2 workouts plus IP run workouts at the same time for 6 weeks is a TON of work even if the TSS is lower than FTP and TP workouts. I don't think I will try to do both of those training blocks at the same time next year.
Just a couple of thoughts. First, it is great that you are at worst case where you were on the bike when you started the out season. Also, you really do need to consider the HUGE gains that you have made running in the last year or so and think about the effect of absorbing those types of changes along with all the other training. Also, ski trips can take things out of you in ways that you would not expect. I have excellent knowledge in the subject. I am generally trashed for at least 2 weeks after a trip out west even though I do almost no s/b/r all week. Also, please consider that it is easy to fall into a trap where you expect your FTP to do nothing but go UP UP UP. This is not a reality. It seems like it for a while, especially when you start training with power but in order to use power properly we need to use the FTP we have not the FTP we would like to have. It sucks to lower the number in WKO but you can't expect it to never decrease either. I try to wrap my head around it like this, where am I in relation to this time last year? If the number is lower do I weigh more or less? How am I running? Have I actually been doing any training on the bike?
FWIW, right now the answer to those questions are, about the same, about the same, better than ever and no, not really.
I try to wrap my head around it like this, where am I in relation to this time last year? If the number is lower do I weigh more or less? How am I running? Have I actually been doing any training on the bike?
FWIW, right now the answer to those questions are, about the same, about the same, better than ever and no, not really.
All will be well...
Chris, thanks for the thoughts, and I couldn't agree more, all will be just fine.
The only reason I'm spending any energy thinking about the topic is that, through February, the answers to your list of questions are "about the same, about the same, better than ever, and yes, I worked my tail off for 3 months."
I expect a drop from where I was mid-February to now, where training has been pretty intermittent and I've been focused on trying to get my rest right. In fact, I'm pretty darned happy to see FTP end up where it is, given how little I've biked over the last month. I kinda expected it to drop more than it did (though, in all honesty, I did secretly hope that I might have magically 'absorbed' all of the previous months' work, but that was just wishful thinking). My internal RPE calculator is back to giving me feedback I understand, and that's terrific, too!
It's more the November to early February part that has me thinking a lot. Because I was much more consistent than last year, working harder, on the Advanced plan (vs. Int last year), and the gains were marginal and started to go backwards.
Working hard and seeing no results = overtraining. I get it. But at the time, in that moment, I would have sworn up, down, and sideways that I was not overtrained, I wasn't that tired, and I was able to complete the workouts as prescribed (albeit closer to 95% than 100, and closer to 115% than 120% in the power clinc). So, the evidence was there, but I really had a hard time admitting it, because it didn't feel so bad. It was only after another month of just doing the same, and seeing tests slide backwards, that I had to admit that it was a possibility.
As I said, I'm actually very happy with what's been going on over the last month or so. Training has been at a maintenance level, my ability to do an FTP test is back (regardless of where the numbers are), and I'll be back outside soon. All good things. I'm optimistic about a good build for Placid, and looking forward to racing. And I'm friggin thrilled with my running this year. So, clearly all is well, indeed.
Now's the time for me to learn the lesson of this OS's biking, so that I can apply that learning to future seasons. I'm still not sure that I've learned anything that I can use to help me stop myself earlier. That's what I'd like to get to.
Power Clinic VO2 workouts plus IP run workouts at the same time for 6 weeks is a TON of work even if the TSS is lower than FTP and TP workouts. I don't think I will try to do both of those training blocks at the same time next year.
There may be a lesson there. As I worked through a shortened OS, took on the Power Clinic, and mixed in ski weeks, I ended up doing bike VO2 work along with run TP work and vice versa. Looking back, I'm glad I did that, and I will maybe even modify next year's OS the same way. E.g, 1st six weeks Bike FTP/Run IP; next six Bike VO2/Run TP, then last six, Bike FTP/Run as needed to race an HIM. Don't know if that's broadly applicable, but it has kept me from going over the edge this winter.
Comments
Unfortunately, the only pics I took while in St. Louis were posters regarding cancer surgery (not something I think everyone would want me to post
). I forgot my camera when I went to Pappys BBQ restaurant, and ate the combo platter (1/2 rack of ribs, brisket, and some pulled pork, along with sweet potatoe fries, and baked beans). The place was featured on Man vs. Food, and it was every bit as awesome as it looked on the show!!!
Now, 6 days into my 7 days of rest, I am finally coming around. Yesterday, I felt exhausted, lousy, and just generally irritable (not good timing, as we had 8 girls over for a birthday party for my daughter). I was able to hang in there and be a good dad, but it took every ounce of mental energy I had.
Last night, I fell asleep before 8. Slept until 7:30 this morning. Finally, for the first time in a while, I almost feel normal.
Tomorrow, back on the bike! P, if I am going to repeat the first 8 weeks of the OS, should I start off tomorrow with the FTP test, or ease back in a bit?
-Mike
Mike--reread what you wrote. To moi, you don't sound ready yet to be hitting FT tests and jumping back in headlong. There is no magic to "a week" off. You might need another two days off, then a week or so of shorter, easier workouts. You need to honestly assess where you are over the next few days as you begin workouts. You want to be SUSTAINABLY recovered from the hole you were in. Maybe you are, but if you find yourself sliding back (and you may), hedge it until you are really ready. Not hedging it is how some of us toasted a whole season, and I don't wish it on anyone.
Atta boy for taking the rest. Not everyone would, as you well know.
Thanks, Linda, that's definitely the same way I was thinking. I don't really need to do an FTP test right now, nor do I think I need to jump into 2 x 20 on 4' or any other.
That being said, I wanted to confirm that I understood not only the literal recommendation (jump back in at week 1), but also the intent. I can be somewhat literal, to my own detriment.
Thanks again!
Mike
Report #1, one week back in.
Well, I took my one week off, rested hard. Didn't do anything, though I was on business travel for a few days, which means that I drank a bit too much and didn't quite get the quality of sleep I'd like.
Got back on the workout schedule a week ago. First bike was 3 x 13' @ Z4 on the bike. I swagged my FTP at about 240, just below where I had been hitting before the difficulties. I hit all three in the high 230's, and was happy.
Tuesday night was also the start of using some of Leigh's new tricks for trying to loosen up my hips. Great tricks, but definitely left me sore (yeah, I can even overdo it on foam rollering...) Wednesday was 2 x 1mi Z4 run, and I got outside for the first time in a long time. The legs weren't feeling fresh, and the pace was a bit tough to hold, but I was able to do it. By Thursday, I had some DOMS setting in, probably from the muscle work, possibly from Tuesday's bike. The workout was 2 x 8' Z4, and I was able to hold both intervals slightly above 240 (first intervals over 240 in 2 months). Saturday was another 2 x 8', and again, I was able to hold mid-240's for each of the 8 minutes. Sunday, life caught up, and I wasn't able to get the run in.
So, where am I at? I don't know. I'll be honest, if I had to drop an FTP test (based on RPE of these last 3 workouts), I think 240 is probably about the highest I could hope for, which is dissapointing, having put in a TON of work over the last two months. Part of me is kinda wondering if I haven't entirely rested myself enough. OTOH, the legs are pushing a bit more watts for the first time in a while, so the other part of me is just figuring on being patient, taking a week or two of this, and seeing where things land.
Since I seem to have a pretty significant blind spot to the right thing to do for myself, I'd really appreciate any observations. It seems so easy to figure out the right thing to do when looking at someone else, yet then I just get kinda dumb looking at myself...
Mike
Mike,
We're in the midst of a big shift this week. Longer days and warmer and drier weather are directly ahead. My suggestion would be to unhitch your bike from the trainer (you may need some wd-40 to loosen the grip the trainer has had since Nov
)
F#$! your FTP right now. Just ride. See how you feel and see what your speed is based on similar rides from last year.
Attack a few hills, just go out and have fun.
I hear ya on overdoing the stretching. I did that a few weeks ago and then went overboard on some hammy strengthening last week. I'm such a dumbass sometimes.
You're on the right track. I'm in a similar boat with my running. Good runs, then ones I struggle with. On the good ones, I know I'll PR LP. On the bad ones, I'm ready to withdraw my registration. Yes, I'm a bit of an extremist.
Hang in there and keep us posted.
Dave
Mike,
I have a hard time reading people over the internet but here's my nickels worth for the 3rd time. You might get a quarter out of me yet.
Given the hole that you dug yourself in one week may not have been enough but it seems to have helped tremendously. Travel, lack of sleep and drinking tend to kick my butt so your recovery week was not optimal but that's life.
You seem to be hitting the targets my comment would be to resist the urge to push. Your FTP is set at 240 hit the 95-100% and call it a day. There is no need to push that extra to 'see what you can do' . I would think if you are still in need of recovery or on the edge don't push more do a little less. Here's my thought process if you are reaching for mid 240's say 245 that's only 1.02 not really difficult or much of a stretch, but if you were to hit say 97% that's only 233 watts. So you are pushing an extra 12 watts for your intervals. I know 97% is not what you want to do and understand the desire to push after 19 weeks of the OS resist it and just do the work at 95-100.
For reference hit Matt blog about his foot injury and how that time off was beneficial to his training.
My experience as a 1st year OS member was that the shorter intervals even up to 10' it was easier to hold above FTP, but there was a cost that crept up over the weeks as I challenged myself getting 1.08 even 1.1 on a few intervals. Due to this I had to shut it down for a couple rest days in the first 8 weeks and I was not even running. I'm a beginner and not much base coming off the couch for me so take that into consideration.
Here's my armchair analysis in a nutshell. Do you need another week off, possibly. Given you numbers last week I'd more likely say that you can continue training and curtail any extra efforts, possibly even aiming for 95% on the bike and just hitting the run stuff. What works for me is to try to getin an extra hour of sleep for most of the week and a long sleep on the weekend if possible.
Other things that are just random thoughts now. How's the nutrition? Ensure that you get food for recovery after the workouts.
Gordon
Hi Mike,
It's like I could have written that post when I was in my hole. I feel for you, buddy. I know I'm older, a hardly talented athlete, and a slow recover-er, but it took me a lot longer to dig out of the hole than I thought it would. Last year it was so deep it cost me the season. This year I nipped it, but it was still a solid 4 weeks. I worked out after week 1, but it was a long, slow climb back. I'm still not hitting the FT like I was in the middle of the OS, but I'm working on it and it's coming back slowly. I know the feeling--all that work and then to slide backwards.Ugh. I didn't understand it all for a long time, but now I know that I went over my personal threshold of what I could absorb. I am a lot clearer on what my parameters are, but the lesson was tough to take.
I know one thing, there is no way on this earth I could ever have gone from 20-weeks of the OS, one week transition, and into Race Prep. My hat is off to those who can do that, and continue to nail the training and improve. How that is done, I will never know.
This is interesting to follow. Keep us posted as the weeks tick by.
Linda,
thanks for your perspective. I can assure you that there's only one person in this house I'd dare let call you a "hardly talented athlete", and that's you. But I think you're giving yourself too little credit.
I have a follow-up question for you. Did you ever see any benefit from the work you did which got you into the hole in the first place? Was there ever a point, 4, 8, 12 weeks later, where you were riding along one day, saying, "gosh, I am getting faster. It must have just taken me this long to absorb all of it" ? Or, would you have been better off never having done that work in the first place?
I'm asking, trying to understand a bit here. You see, I do know my body, have absorbed some epic training in the past, and am still young enough to expect to recover well (though maybe not as well as when I was 20). I would not describe any of the training I did in Nov, Dec, Jan, as "Crash Training", or high risk training. And I was pretty close to hitting workout targets for most of January and February, I just never saw any increases. I had my first difficulties before the Power Clinic even begain, and was still pretty close to most of the Power Clinic workouts, though I never actually hit the target on any of them.
So, by that logic, I'm expecting that, as we always say here, "work works." I'm expecting that I should see some benefit from this work. Maybe I'm just being a bit naive, but I feel like I've worked hard enough to have earned more than 5-6 watts of increase this off-season. I kinda still believe that those watts are on their way, they just haven't gotten here yet.
If taking the next 2, 3, 4, even 6 weeks unstructured is what it takes to be ready to do Race Prep, I have no problem with that. Whatsoever. Placid is my goal this year, and I'm prepared to do the work, and race with whatever fitness I can bring. This will be my very first IM, and I'm not defining success by finishing time, or how many watts I have in Gear 2. I'm defining success by doing enough training to be prepared for the rigors of the race in Race Prep, and showing up executing as smartly as possible. I'm quite confident that if I do that, I'll be happy with my time, too.
I'm just having a really hard time wrapping my head around the idea that we say "work works", but there seems to be an "except if you go a bit too far, and then not only does it not work (ie. might as well not have done it), but it actually sets you back". That doesn't make sense to me (having never experienced it). So I'm wondering about your thoughts.
Thanks!
Mike
My Rx for you is to take the next few weeks and have fun. Don't bring your power meter or garmin with you. Enjoy the Spring, and enjoy exercising again. Because this is currently not working for you.
I watched you through out the Nov OS and the Power Clininc. I know you've made amazing gains, you just need to let your body absorb and your mind realize what you've accomplished. Not having the numbers in front of you will allow you to enjoy your fitness gains.
Mike - Sounds like the rest has worked for you, and what you need is some confirmation (apart from those nasty indoor power readings) that you do have some juice in the legs. I'd echo what Dave and Larry are saying - Just get outsdide and ride, Dude! - and add a little fillip. Give yourself a day off, say Friday. Scout out a good 6-8 mile course you can ride hard without interruption. On Saturday, go and ride it out and back as a time trial, but (again, Larry's suggestion) don't use your PM. Instead, see how you feel, and see how fast you are actually going. Speed in a time trial is the true test of how well the training has worked.
How old are you? (theorizing over here)
Thanks,
cm
@Linda, your comment #1 was truely a patch of wisdom
, OK groan all you like, but better a poor joke, than no joke @ all!
@Dave, I know it sucks not seeing for FTP go up as we all want but with your vdor going up like a rocket it's not all bad. I was looking at some stuff on the web and found this, that should cheer you up,
"The good news is that 90% of the people riding your bike split WILL be
walking or shuffling a great deal of the run (trust us, we've seen it). You, as
the EN athlete, will be different. You'll be running while your peers are
walking. This is where you will go faster on race day: not by riding a faster
bike split but by not slowing down on the run."
I believe it was written by a couple of guys call Rich and Patrick or it may have just been one you Patrick Rich
You are so going chew those people up and spit them out on the run, your rock kill figures will be really impressive.
More seriously I think backing off fully will really help (I lost nothing during my 2 weeks out sick).
Just remember you've done all the work.
@ Chris, I'm 32.
@ Larry, Al, Robert: thanks. I appreciate your insight. I hope I didn't come off as fretting about where I'm at. I'm pretty comfortable in the situation I'm in, and have been confident that the hard work will pay off. My post above is in response to Linda's comment about 'losing a season' and never really seeing gains. It sounds like there's a line one can go over, where doing the work sets you back, in which case, "work doesn't work". Just trying to learn more about that, becuase it's not a phenomenon I understand. I certainly hope that I've avoided it (and think I have), but right now, I don't know what I don't know. So I ask questions.
I appreciate your patience with me, and willingness to keep helping me figure stuff out!
Mike
@Robert! HA! Aim to please!
@Mike--yeah that lost season was tough. A lot of it was also the mental piece of getting so fried and not recovering from that head space. The body may have been ready to do more, but the mind wasn't an ally. So in the end, because the two were not in sync, I was unable to move forward. PLEASE don't think that will happen to you. I don't want to scare anyone, or mess with your head. I'm a sample size of one.
My crash and burn was about ME making bad training choices, ME going too hard for too long, and not understanding that I was doing that. It was all ME and my mistakes--not the training here. Just had to put that out there. I did not self-coach myself very well, and that was the fall out.
http://www.active.com/triathlon/Articles/The-Benefits-of-Training-on-a-Road-Bike.htm?act=EMC-Active&Vehicle=Triathlon&Date=02_28_10&Edition=4&Sections=Articles&Creative=The_Benefits_of_Riding_a_Road_Bike_&TextName=The_Benefits_of_Riding_a_Road_Bike_&ArtText=Txt&Placement=3&Dy=Sun
Todd, thanks for the thoughts. While I much prefer to be on my tri bike in general, I was kinda tired of it by the end of last season, so I've done the whole OS on my road bike. All on the trainer, but all on the road bike. I'm really looking forward to being back on the tri bike in a few weeks, to see if switching things up helps.
I asked about your age because us OA's out there don't recover from intensity as quickly as the young uns and it throws us a beat down if we're not very careful.
But given that you're in prime time age wise and you run very well and the past data says you're much stronger than you're currently performing, I start to think about the mental/ emotional. I will admit to being a strong proponent of the notion that where the head goes the body follows, so I wonder if there isn't something else draining you. The winter interval sessions on the trainer bring into sharp focus what you've got mentally and where you are. They force one to think, okay, why am I sucking today when all systems should be a go? It is usually some emotional distraction- kids, job, clients, relationship stuff. Something that stresses you out. That's why the outside bike love breaks are important, imo. The bike becomes a bad object otherwise. And the little dictator, the friggin' power meter. Dethrone it.
Not to put you on the couch, just running down the checklist.
Good luck.
cm
Hey Mike,
did you check your resting heart rate to see if it was elevated? usually a sign that your getting sick or at least fighting something.
Of course all that tells you is that standing down is the right thing to do.
Tonight I was on week 18's 2 x 20's and it felt like the best bike work ot in weeks, including probably the 2 weeks before I stood down and last week which was my 1st week back.
Robert
In addition to fatigue do you suffer from any allergies this time of year? My allergy symptoms are fatigue: both mentally and physically. Just a thought as I am unable to mentally still sit on my FTP number from Dec after really backing off for 3+ weeks now including only 1 run/week.
I tried to hold my FTP for 20 mins yesterday and my brain quit at 15 mins. My HR said I had more to give by 6 bpm but I just couldn't get my brain around it. I even dropped to the intermediate plan to reduce load.
Vince
After my rest week, repeating the first 2 weeks of the OS felt pretty good. I was able to hold a threshold effort for the prescribed durations, and the numbers were in the range of where I'd expect. Did a few 2-3 x 8' interval sessions, got some good Z3 work in. Overall, not too bad.
Last week, I was very active, but wasn't able to work out whatsoever, due to travel, time changes, and some skiing over the weekend. Suffice it to say that, while I was not out biking or running, nor was I resting.
This week, in my hybrid OS / General Prep world, I had an FTP test up on tuesday. I was feeling pretty good, and wasn't skeered of the 20' intervals. So I went for it. I was able to do the entire 2 x 20' (2'), well paced, at an appropriate effort level. The first one felt a bit too easy, the second one took a lot of mental focus through about 15 minutes, and then was physically tough to push, as it should be. So, overall, ignoring any numbers, etc., it was a well-executed test, and I think it was representative of my abilities on the day. I was satisfied. Test resulted in a 42' Pnorm of 233 watts.
Now, from a numbers perspective, I'd have liked to have seen higher. That's basically the same numbers I saw on the first OS test, after not doing much of anything for 2 months. It's 5% below where I was at the end of December. But, it is what it is. I've rested, I've backed off, I've trained responsibly, and this is what I've got right now.
So, it's time to reset the FTP expectations to 233, and wait until I get outside to see where I'm at outside. I'm also going to make the switch to the tri bike in the next week.
Overall, my conclusions from this not-so-grand experiment are:
-I'm still not really sure what I did to cause this. I never felt like I was doing anything all that aggressive.
-Unfortunately, I'm starting to come to the conclusion that there are conditions where work does not work. All the thoughts of 'you just need time to absorb it' do not seem to have played out over the last month. I'm left weaker now than I was in January.
-As I get close to the 'reality point' of the calendar, the question of 'why' matters less and less. To quote Bill Belichick, "it is what it is"
As an over-analytical type-A, my process of trying to understand what's going on will continue. Beyond simple overtraining, I have a few operating hypotheses, revolving around diet, the christmas run challenge, the added fatigue of VO2 work, and bike geometry. I can't rule out any of them, and I can't pinpoint any either.
Mike
Nothing really to add. But I am glad to hear that you had a promising effort after your (sort of) rest. You helped me a ton with the approach to pacing a vDot test (I pace better, but still no real improvement) because of your ability to break down what worked for you which was a result of your uber-analysis. You'll get to some conclusions whether they be data driven or not on this.
I'm with you on wondering whether there might be a point at which work doesn't work. I've had no movement in my FTP nor my vDot since October. I struggle against all hope to hold those numbers that I legitimately achieved then in my current workouts, and I sure as heck won't even bother with testing. I'm training hard, and I know I'm fit, but mostly I'm just tired, and over it. My "one thing" is going to be pretty dog-eared and tattered by the time I pull it out on 5/1. It's already rather well worn.
Thankfully my race sim a few weeks ago went well and really did jazz me and boost my confidence for the race. It helped me realize that I will make it through the day feeling good. After that I admittedly stopped worrying about the numbers. I do my work to the best of my ability, don't get me wrong there, but I finally reached that point of accepting that I'm not going to see improvement at this point. That's not cool for me as a striver who always wants to improve performance,but I'm in survival mode and don't have the energy to care. Gotta focus on staying healthy and getting to the start & finish.
As to what caused this...It's likely not one thing, but a multifactoral cause. Those "forced" days off from training due to work and family obligations are not restful. I've never thought that they contribute much to recovery for training---at least not mentally.
And the FTP decrease...At what point does one cross the line from recovery and absorbing the training to enable greater fitness to "over-recovering" and deconditioning? Or is there not really a line that's crossed and that drop in functional metrics part of recovery?
I don't any good answers. However, I do have confidence---faith ---that all our training and recovery efforts will result in a fitness gain even if it's not seen today.
Thanks for the replies! I appreciate any observations on what I may be missing, as I've clearly demonstrated that I have some blind spots.
@Olivia, I totally relate to the frustration of being a striver, and not seeing movement. Fortunately, I'm no longer all worked up about it. I now feel like a detective, picking up scents, but still not 'hot on the trail'.
@Eric, as far as I'm concerned, a minute skiing is worth about 5 good minutes doing most anything else. You do bring up one other interesting thing, which I'd nearly forgotten about, which is the impact of snow-shoveling on LSS (Life Stress Score). There was a period back a couple of months where I think I shoveled out my driveway 4 times in a week, which is an hour of pretty significant work. Gotta go back and check the dates of that, to see how they lined up. I also appreciate the words on the test. I'm not worried about it at all (I'm actually thrilled that I was able to get one done, with consistent output, regardless of the #'s).
My working hypothesis right now is this:
It's #5 that I'm currently trying to think about most. I honestly never would have told you that I was exhausted in January. But I think I might have been, and just didn't notice it. I've kinda gotten used to a chronic level of fatigue after my son was born almost 3 years ago (really bad sleeper for a long time), so that being rested is an unusual state for me. May need to consider some other tracking metrics (resting HR, others), and am actually thinking about this Restwise software (though pretty far from pulling the trigger at this point).
Mike
I have decided to work at being content with my current achievement since I know I am very fit. To be sure, if a glimmer of improvement or hope were to shine through, I'd jump at it. But I am not sure that I have much further to go.
I think you nailed a key point the RnP have mentioned before, all TSS is not created equal. Power Clinic VO2 workouts plus IP run workouts at the same time for 6 weeks is a TON of work even if the TSS is lower than FTP and TP workouts. I don't think I will try to do both of those training blocks at the same time next year.
Mike,
Just a couple of thoughts. First, it is great that you are at worst case where you were on the bike when you started the out season. Also, you really do need to consider the HUGE gains that you have made running in the last year or so and think about the effect of absorbing those types of changes along with all the other training. Also, ski trips can take things out of you in ways that you would not expect. I have excellent knowledge in the subject. I am generally trashed for at least 2 weeks after a trip out west even though I do almost no s/b/r all week. Also, please consider that it is easy to fall into a trap where you expect your FTP to do nothing but go UP UP UP. This is not a reality. It seems like it for a while, especially when you start training with power but in order to use power properly we need to use the FTP we have not the FTP we would like to have. It sucks to lower the number in WKO but you can't expect it to never decrease either. I try to wrap my head around it like this, where am I in relation to this time last year? If the number is lower do I weigh more or less? How am I running? Have I actually been doing any training on the bike?
FWIW, right now the answer to those questions are, about the same, about the same, better than ever and no, not really.
All will be well...
Chris, thanks for the thoughts, and I couldn't agree more, all will be just fine.
The only reason I'm spending any energy thinking about the topic is that, through February, the answers to your list of questions are "about the same, about the same, better than ever, and yes, I worked my tail off for 3 months."
I expect a drop from where I was mid-February to now, where training has been pretty intermittent and I've been focused on trying to get my rest right. In fact, I'm pretty darned happy to see FTP end up where it is, given how little I've biked over the last month. I kinda expected it to drop more than it did (though, in all honesty, I did secretly hope that I might have magically 'absorbed' all of the previous months' work, but that was just wishful thinking). My internal RPE calculator is back to giving me feedback I understand, and that's terrific, too!
It's more the November to early February part that has me thinking a lot. Because I was much more consistent than last year, working harder, on the Advanced plan (vs. Int last year), and the gains were marginal and started to go backwards.
Working hard and seeing no results = overtraining. I get it. But at the time, in that moment, I would have sworn up, down, and sideways that I was not overtrained, I wasn't that tired, and I was able to complete the workouts as prescribed (albeit closer to 95% than 100, and closer to 115% than 120% in the power clinc). So, the evidence was there, but I really had a hard time admitting it, because it didn't feel so bad. It was only after another month of just doing the same, and seeing tests slide backwards, that I had to admit that it was a possibility.
As I said, I'm actually very happy with what's been going on over the last month or so. Training has been at a maintenance level, my ability to do an FTP test is back (regardless of where the numbers are), and I'll be back outside soon. All good things. I'm optimistic about a good build for Placid, and looking forward to racing. And I'm friggin thrilled with my running this year. So, clearly all is well, indeed.
Now's the time for me to learn the lesson of this OS's biking, so that I can apply that learning to future seasons. I'm still not sure that I've learned anything that I can use to help me stop myself earlier. That's what I'd like to get to.
Mike
There may be a lesson there. As I worked through a shortened OS, took on the Power Clinic, and mixed in ski weeks, I ended up doing bike VO2 work along with run TP work and vice versa. Looking back, I'm glad I did that, and I will maybe even modify next year's OS the same way. E.g, 1st six weeks Bike FTP/Run IP; next six Bike VO2/Run TP, then last six, Bike FTP/Run as needed to race an HIM. Don't know if that's broadly applicable, but it has kept me from going over the edge this winter.