Doing a 5K race Saturday, but to feel your pain, I ran 6 miles including 20 x 45 secs w 75 secs jog recovery. However, the polar vortex was a one day event here and I was running outside in the upper 50s ... cool, but we will be back to the 70s tomorrow.
It's interesting we all have different perceptions about TM running - Ray B thinks its easier, I think there's no difference, others think its harder. To me the key question for us should be ... Does it work as well at getting me fit as running on the track or outside? One thing I like to point out about training on a treadmill is the performance and background of the winner of the 2000 US Olympic Trials marathon; note the very last clause below:
"In Columbia, Chris Clark outdid past Trials winners Jenny Spangler and Mark [sic] Conover by shocking everybody and herself with her impressive victory on a tough course under sunny skies and warm temperatures.
The 22nd fastest qualifier, Clark, 37, from Anchorage, Alaska, took control of race at the 20 mile mark as she overtook leader Ann Marie Lauck. The Montana State grad went unchallenged to the tape in 2:33:31, followed by Kristy Johnston in second (2:35:36) and Lauck third in 2:36:05. Clark was the only U.S. woman to qualify for the Olympics because she did not have an Olympic "A" standard (sub-2:33).
"My expectations were top 20, and a great day would be top 10. Winning I never thought about. I stayed focused on what I needed to do. I never thought I'd run this fast. The crowd was unbelievable the whole way. I'm in shock," said the pathologist and mother of two who trained on a treadmill in her house for the Trials."
So I searched for "Is running easier on treadmill or outside?" And got this article which purports to summarize research on the issue, with references:
I'm not a treadmill advocate; I prefer the track for intervals, and the road or path or trail other running. But if it's dark or raining, AND I have to run at a specific time AND I don't want to fight the elements, I think I can get an equivalent workout on the TM.
Interesting article Al. When I first started running, I did it all on a treadmill, and when I transitioned to outside, it seemed much harder. But now I've been a 99% outside gal, and that treadmill kills me. I think the "individual differences" the article talks about in biomechanical changes people showed might have something to do with why some people find it easier and others find it harder. I also wonder if it depends on what our own strengths are, like people who are hamstring dominant or weak gastrocs, etc. I did learn firsthand tonight what a difference that incline makes. I had it at 1.5% and then accidentally pulled the emergency stop and had to restart. I initially forgot to put the incline back in and was amazed at how it suddenly felt so easy. Doh.
OK run test in the books. I chose the treadmill to test on just like I always do as I do all of my weekday runs on the mill,
vDot is... ugh... 27. On the plus side, it was 26 in October, so I am focusing on the gain over the loss of where I was a year ago with a 33. Avg HR was 179! I started in the 140's and it sucked the whole time, but I got it done.
Personally I find the treadmill MUCH tougher. My HR is always a lot higher on the mill. I only run on the treadmill rarely but sometimes it's unavoidable...
...like tonight, for example...
I only test VDOT in races so tonight I did a 45' run with 4x 1mi intervals @z4. My footpod is very well-calibrated for my tri shoes but I used my outdoor trainers tonight and sure enough the paces were wrong -- my watch showed me going about 20 sec/mi too fast. Regardless of what the "real" pace was, my HR was sky-high well into the 190's so I know I was well into z4...outdoors in the heat of the summer my HR will get to about 188/89 in LT intervals so this was a hell of a workout.
Overall 6.58 miles in 45:15, avg. 6:53/mi. Avg run cadence 180. Mile repeats: 6:32, 6:13, 6:13, 6:32
V dot = 32 on the treadmill today. I think that's about the best I can do on a treadmill, and since the streets are covered by 6 inches of snow still, I'm not going to do much better. Not too terrible since I've never been a fast runner. Mean HR = 172.
Hi All - I'm a new EN member in the last week, very excited to be part of the team. Coming back from an achilles injury that affected me most of last year so it's nice to finally feel "healthy" again and do a run test. Quick question, what is your Vdot and how is that calculated?
I'm with Matt...I only use real races for my VDOT testing. I did a 10k on Thanksgiving and got 47 VDOT. Since then I've been on the run durability plan, and have been using the 47 VDOT as pace. Started the JOS this week but skipping the run test. Did 2 x 1 mile @ 7:08 pace with 2% incline on treadmill this am. I'm racing another 10k on Feb 9, and we'll see what I get then.
Doing the bike test tomorrow night @ my Computrainer class at Vision Quest.
Regarding the treadmill thing.... Not only has Matt shown that at least a reasonable sampling of them is correct... but I think we can all agree that running on a treadmill is a slightly different beast than running elsewhere. (Most agree that you use a bit more quad and a bit less hamstring; most think you shorten stride just a touch.) As a result, you may as well calibrate to the treadmill if that's what you're running on...it's like biking indoors vs outdoors...you might have a little different FTP or VDOT...but don't sweat it. Just calibrate to what you're going to be doing.
That said, I'm very impressed with EVERYONE who can run a fast 5K on a treadmill. :-)
@Ben... the term Vdot originally comes from using V for volume of O2 with the dot being written above it so that it was normalized for certain factors (maybe your weight?) that I'm forgetting right now. [In other math, a dot often means "derivative of" but that's not what it is here.]. So it is supposed to be an indirect measure of your maximum ability to process oxygen originally. These days, most of us just use it as a marker on these statistical lists that approximates what your training paces and racing potentials will be based on a standardized test distance.
Got my test done outside this am in balmy 45 degree scottsdale. I rarely use a treadmill so can't enter the conversation-you might find me on one in July when I've decided to delay a run until afternoon and its 115 outside. And to all of you running in near zero temps-wow! I had tights, arm warmers, gloves and a beanie on (I am such an Arizonan.) I'm much happier about todays test than my FTP on Monday-must have something to do with all the running I've done the last five weeks compared to biking (a big zero). My last VDOT was 40 (7:30 pace)in september just before all the endurance running ramped up for AZIM and I nearly stroked achieving that. So I was going for a nice avg 8 mile pace with a predicted 24:48: Test:
time: 24:49 avg HR 164 VDOT 38.54 8:14 HR150 8:12 HR 166 7:41 HR 174 Im happy with this, and wasn't dying at the end , and hope to beat my previous high of 40 before the end of JOS!
Got the run done this morning....first run in a week and a half due to my Stand Down. 2.7 miles, roughly 22 minutes. My heel ached the entire time, but didn't rise to the level of "hurt". Hopefully, I won't be regretting this run in the morning.
Did the run test this AM... and boy did I feel heavy. I guess the holiday trip to Mexico, with the tacos, guac and refried beans, took its toll.
RESULTS
5k --- 18:34 (5:59/mile average; vodt 54.32)
This is the slowest I've run the 5k in maybe 2 years. That said, I'm not too worried. I've taken a good bit of time off from doing serious interval run training and I'm easily 5-7 lb overweight. Now just motivated to shave more and more time off this mark. Giddy up.
Run test done. Glad I waited as the weather was much better that is has been the past few days. Overall I'm satisfied with the test. I've been on the run durability plans since Dec and I believe that contributed my slight improvement. This is my 2nd year with the team and last years test yielded a vDot of 42. This year's run test yields a 45.
Mile 1: 6:51 (a little to fast on the first mile) Mile 2: 7:02 Mile 3: 7:02 Mile .11: :47
I forgot how mentally and physically challenging the OS test week is! Really procrastinated that 5K run but waited until it warmed up to above freezing to hit our dilapidated track at our College! VOT down from this time last year but thankfully not significantly - can only go up I hope!!
Wasn't able to get the 30' run in as a brick this morning but did manage to bang it out on the treadmill starting at 8:45pm after a long day at work. Glad I got the bike done this morning!! The run was fine...to make it interesting I started at EP ~7:30/mi then accelerated the treadmill 0.1mph every 5 minutes. I finished at around MP and averaged 7:04/mi for the 30 minutes in total. Good run and feels great to have fit it in despite schedule constraints! http://connect.garmin.com/activity/427403419
I got in the 30 minutes with 3X30" strides. Nothing flashy but got in done. The bike however was a different story but I'll post that over in the appropriate thread.
Thursday is my brick day, but I am planning on splitting it up most weeks because it is eventually going to be more miles than the standard brick. Thursday morning, I did an easy 5 in the morning. As will be mentioned in my bike thread, there was a building disaster at work that killed my opportunity to do the evening workout. For better or worse, I went ahead and did it Friday.
I am supposed to receive a replacement Garmin to fix my elevation problem in the next few days. They have said to wait to see if that also fixes the problem I'm having with my footpad....You may see some long places with nonsensical pace data (infinite fast pace at zero cadence...) http://connect.garmin.com/activity/427120183
I hit the off day HARD; after an early morning 45' weight room and stretching session, I hung out on EN forums harassing people about Trainer Road, then dropped my bike off to the LBS for some prep work prior to the Di2 upgrade. An early lunch, then a 45 minute nap. The afternoon featured finishing my current Kindle book. All in all, it felt good not to work hard.
Hi, Patrick McGahan here. I joined EN this week and kicked off my JOS training today. I really nailed that rest day .
Any way, I'm sitting on a really good run base right now, as I just came off a marathon cycle in mid-December. So, I should be able to jump right in with you all. I look forward to running with everyone this winter.
I didn't follow your example however. I'm doing the Aon building stair climb for Children's Memorial hospital in 2 weeks, so 3 of us met yesterday at a friend's apartment building to do stair repeats. 10 x 20 flights. Climb to the top floor & ride the elevator back down to the basement. Repeat. OUCH!!
Today I thought I'd be sore from the stair climb but no soreness. I ran 4 miles EZ in Zone 1 @ 8:40 pace. Was icy outside so we had to be careful with the footing. Also, did 90' on the trainer before the run. Will post that in the bike thread. Planning on run 9 tomorrow with my marathon buddies.
I had hoped to do all my workouts outside today since the temps were in the upper 60's. However, the rain moved in so I had to settle for the bike on the trainer. I didn't have much choice on the run but to run in the rain as I have no dreadmill. It was just a steady light rain and was rather nice actually. It's been a strange week of weather here. It was 7 on Tuesday morning and this morning is was 65. What a swing in temps!
Run test today. 5K race in 22:47 for 42 VDOT. Very warm and humid, but improved over 23:38 5K race I did on New Year's day. Hoping to get my pathetically old and slow legs to at least 7:00 pace for 5K by the end of the OS.
It's taken me a while to get comfortable with the Saturday "Run First" program. Doing it as a brick makes every Saturday seem like an Oly tri. But running before the bike, then resting 1-3 hours, seems to allow for a faster, harder run (the main reason the coaches made the switch), but still allows for a complete, though challenging bike, which will be 90' for me today.
I have a course (run up the hill, out past a small roundabout and fire station to a stop sign) which is exactly 5 miles. I treat it progressively, trying to run each of the first four miles harder than the last, then easing up on the downhill home. Today was pretty typical, 42:29, with miles of 9:51, 8:25 (down-ish), 7:48 (out-n-back), 8:02 (a fair amount of up) and 8:18. Torrential windy rain last night, so branches and needles from fir trees were all over. A light drizzle kept me cool, with the air @ 46F.
Comments
"In Columbia, Chris Clark outdid past Trials winners Jenny Spangler and Mark [sic] Conover by shocking everybody and herself with her impressive victory on a tough course under sunny skies and warm temperatures.
The 22nd fastest qualifier, Clark, 37, from Anchorage, Alaska, took control of race at the 20 mile mark as she overtook leader Ann Marie Lauck. The Montana State grad went unchallenged to the tape in 2:33:31, followed by Kristy Johnston in second (2:35:36) and Lauck third in 2:36:05. Clark was the only U.S. woman to qualify for the Olympics because she did not have an Olympic "A" standard (sub-2:33).
"My expectations were top 20, and a great day would be top 10. Winning I never thought about. I stayed focused on what I needed to do. I never thought I'd run this fast. The crowd was unbelievable the whole way. I'm in shock," said the pathologist and mother of two who trained on a treadmill in her house for the Trials."
So I searched for "Is running easier on treadmill or outside?" And got this article which purports to summarize research on the issue, with references:
http://runnersconnect.net/running-training-articles/treadmill-running-easier
I'm not a treadmill advocate; I prefer the track for intervals, and the road or path or trail other running. But if it's dark or raining, AND I have to run at a specific time AND I don't want to fight the elements, I think I can get an equivalent workout on the TM.
vDot is... ugh... 27. On the plus side, it was 26 in October, so I am focusing on the gain over the loss of where I was a year ago with a 33. Avg HR was 179! I started in the 140's and it sucked the whole time, but I got it done.
NO REGRETS in 2014
...like tonight, for example...
I only test VDOT in races so tonight I did a 45' run with 4x 1mi intervals @z4. My footpod is very well-calibrated for my tri shoes but I used my outdoor trainers tonight and sure enough the paces were wrong -- my watch showed me going about 20 sec/mi too fast. Regardless of what the "real" pace was, my HR was sky-high well into the 190's so I know I was well into z4...outdoors in the heat of the summer my HR will get to about 188/89 in LT intervals so this was a hell of a workout.
Overall 6.58 miles in 45:15, avg. 6:53/mi. Avg run cadence 180.
Mile repeats: 6:32, 6:13, 6:13, 6:32
http://connect.garmin.com/activity/426946736
Hi All - I'm a new EN member in the last week, very excited to be part of the team. Coming back from an achilles injury that affected me most of last year so it's nice to finally feel "healthy" again and do a run test. Quick question, what is your Vdot and how is that calculated?
Total time: 23:05
Mile 1: 7:40
Mile 2: 7:32
Mile 3: 7:08
0.1: 0.45
HR: 170
vdot: 42
I'm with Matt...I only use real races for my VDOT testing. I did a 10k on Thanksgiving and got 47 VDOT. Since then I've been on the run durability plan, and have been using the 47 VDOT as pace. Started the JOS this week but skipping the run test. Did 2 x 1 mile @ 7:08 pace with 2% incline on treadmill this am. I'm racing another 10k on Feb 9, and we'll see what I get then.
Doing the bike test tomorrow night @ my Computrainer class at Vision Quest.
Good work everyone!!
That said, I'm very impressed with EVERYONE who can run a fast 5K on a treadmill. :-)
I had a nice tempo run tonight (indoor track) 5 mi around 7:50 pace, then 5 more at about 7:02. Felt really good. http://connect.garmin.com/activity/426963103
@Ben... the term Vdot originally comes from using V for volume of O2 with the dot being written above it so that it was normalized for certain factors (maybe your weight?) that I'm forgetting right now. [In other math, a dot often means "derivative of" but that's not what it is here.]. So it is supposed to be an indirect measure of your maximum ability to process oxygen originally. These days, most of us just use it as a marker on these statistical lists that approximates what your training paces and racing potentials will be based on a standardized test distance.
I'm much happier about todays test than my FTP on Monday-must have something to do with all the running I've done the last five weeks compared to biking (a big zero). My last VDOT was 40 (7:30 pace)in september just before all the endurance running ramped up for AZIM and I nearly stroked achieving that. So I was going for a nice avg 8 mile pace with a predicted 24:48:
Test:
time: 24:49 avg HR 164 VDOT 38.54
8:14 HR150
8:12 HR 166
7:41 HR 174
Im happy with this, and wasn't dying at the end , and hope to beat my previous high of 40 before the end of JOS!
Does any of our WSM (or anyone who owns Daniels book) know how it is calculated?
Did the run test this AM... and boy did I feel heavy. I guess the holiday trip to Mexico, with the tacos, guac and refried beans, took its toll.
RESULTS
5k --- 18:34 (5:59/mile average; vodt 54.32)
This is the slowest I've run the 5k in maybe 2 years. That said, I'm not too worried. I've taken a good bit of time off from doing serious interval run training and I'm easily 5-7 lb overweight. Now just motivated to shave more and more time off this mark. Giddy up.
Mile 1: 6:51 (a little to fast on the first mile)
Mile 2: 7:02
Mile 3: 7:02
Mile .11: :47
21:44
Avg HR: 170 bpm
http://connect.garmin.com/activity/427403419
Run Test Done!
Did I mention I was looking forward to the suffering in the OS....what was I thinking!?!?
Nice run - fast!
I am supposed to receive a replacement Garmin to fix my elevation problem in the next few days. They have said to wait to see if that also fixes the problem I'm having with my footpad....You may see some long places with nonsensical pace data (infinite fast pace at zero cadence...)
http://connect.garmin.com/activity/427120183
I hit the off day HARD; after an early morning 45' weight room and stretching session, I hung out on EN forums harassing people about Trainer Road, then dropped my bike off to the LBS for some prep work prior to the Di2 upgrade. An early lunch, then a 45 minute nap. The afternoon featured finishing my current Kindle book. All in all, it felt good not to work hard.
Hi, Patrick McGahan here. I joined EN this week and kicked off my JOS training today. I really nailed that rest day
.
Any way, I'm sitting on a really good run base right now, as I just came off a marathon cycle in mid-December. So, I should be able to jump right in with you all. I look forward to running with everyone this winter.
@ Al...nice work on the recovery. Good example!!
I didn't follow your example however. I'm doing the Aon building stair climb for Children's Memorial hospital in 2 weeks, so 3 of us met yesterday at a friend's apartment building to do stair repeats. 10 x 20 flights. Climb to the top floor & ride the elevator back down to the basement. Repeat. OUCH!!
Today I thought I'd be sore from the stair climb but no soreness. I ran 4 miles EZ in Zone 1 @ 8:40 pace. Was icy outside so we had to be careful with the footing. Also, did 90' on the trainer before the run. Will post that in the bike thread. Planning on run 9 tomorrow with my marathon buddies.
Mile 1: 8:46 HR 147
Mile 2: 8:50 HR 156
Mile 3: 8:37 HR 162
.45 : 3:47 HR 160
Total 30' @ 8:42 pace AVG HR 156
It's taken me a while to get comfortable with the Saturday "Run First" program. Doing it as a brick makes every Saturday seem like an Oly tri. But running before the bike, then resting 1-3 hours, seems to allow for a faster, harder run (the main reason the coaches made the switch), but still allows for a complete, though challenging bike, which will be 90' for me today.
I have a course (run up the hill, out past a small roundabout and fire station to a stop sign) which is exactly 5 miles. I treat it progressively, trying to run each of the first four miles harder than the last, then easing up on the downhill home. Today was pretty typical, 42:29, with miles of 9:51, 8:25 (down-ish), 7:48 (out-n-back), 8:02 (a fair amount of up) and 8:18. Torrential windy rain last night, so branches and needles from fir trees were all over. A light drizzle kept me cool, with the air @ 46F.