@Tim - thanks for the info. In almost every case, my power is about 12 watts higher than the NP. I will use that from now on to calculate the IF. I was wondering how everyone else who uses TR is posting much higher IFs when doing the same workout. I'll go back and edit my other post to use the correct numbers for the IF. Now if I could just get my weight down to get my watts/kg up to a more respectable level!
Normalized power is calculated using 30second rolling averages so power is under sampled for short efforts ( less than 30 minutes ) but the degree of under sampling is accentuated as the intervals become shorter ( i.e about 10% at 5 minutes and 2.5% at 20 minutes). I use np for my 20 minute test to estimate FTP , but stick to avg power for short vo2 work.
On Tuesdays, I have no problem with the FTP intervals above my tested FTP (bad test) and no problem at all holding .90 or higher for the sweet spot, but both of the last two weeks I've struggled on the "easy" brick after
On Thursdays, I have no problem hitting the VO2 max intervals above the FTP based target and closer to my tested VO2, but both of the last two weeks I struggled to do the sweet spot at the end. Ironically, still did the brick run and felt great on the run just minutes after struggling with sweet spot on the bike.
I'm curious if this is happening because of the fatigue of Tue/Wed or if my body just recovers differently after V02 work than FPT work. I suppose I could swap tue / thur workouts to test...ease off on the sweet spot work on Tues to see if the brick run feels easy then.
Either way, I'm getting all the main sets done without issue so I'll just keep plugging away and observing for another week before changing anything. I know I should just re-test soon but I feel like I only have some many good test in me each year so I don't want to fall into the over testing pattern like I have in the past.
Normalized power is calculated using 30second rolling averages so power is under sampled for short efforts ( less than 30 minutes ) but the degree of under sampling is accentuated as the intervals become shorter ( i.e about 10% at 5 minutes and 2.5% at 20 minutes). I use np for my 20 minute test to estimate FTP , but stick to avg power for short vo2 work.
There may be some differences in how various analytic programs account for this. I read my data in three different programs: Power Agent, WKO+, and TrainerRoad, using the same data from my PowerTap hub (poweragent & WKO+) or ComputTrainer (TrianerRoad). TR and PA both show AP & NP; WKO+ does not show NP for intervals less than 5 minutes
Program Int 1 Int 2 Int 3
PowerAgent 243/246 242/244 245/245
TrainerRoad 236/230 237/227 238/231
WKO+ 243 242 245
Note two things: WKO+ and PA both have the same # for AP, showing they are analyzing that the same way. More important, the ratios in PA and TR are reversed. To me, that indicates PA must somehow be adjusting for the lag built into the NP formula, maybe it only is reporting the NP for the final 60 seconds of these 90 second intervals? This is probably what it does, as my Joule, reporting the PT data in real time, reports "0.000" as my interval IF for the first 30 seconds of any interval.
@ mancona - I find the same thing. I've stopped doing bricks after the FTP intervals, either on Tues or Saturday, preferring to do the "run first" as last year's OS suggested. Personally, no matter what TSS might say, I feel less trashed after the VO2 intervals than the FTP ones, although during the workout, it is eually taxing (mentally) to get the whole thing done. Physiologically, there is a difference between FTP and VO2 work, in terms of both the shorter work interval and the longer recovery interval. I suspect there's less waste product build up and more time to clear it during VO2 interval sessions compared to FTP. Also, more anaerobic vs aerobic muscle work being done during VO2, and that may make a difference in how the muscles are able to recover afterwards.
@ Mancona - This could have something to do with your recovery from anerobic efforts <2 minutes versus FTP which will tax your aerobic system more. I'm no physiologist but perhaps your body is not as efficient at reducing/recoving from the lactic acid of the very hard efforts. Perhaps an extra 2' or 4' before the sweet spot riding would do the trick. </p>
I found a couple articles the second outlining where the energy is coming from.
Back from Asia just in time to get my week 3 workouts in! 28 of last 72 hours were spent on a plane, so this week's schedule is a bit off for me. Did Tuesday's 2 x 12' (4') bike ride this AM and plan to do Wednesday's 3x1mi @z4 run tonight. (Plan to take tomorrow off to save my legs for Saturday & Sunday workouts.)
Combination of jetlag and a long week made this 2 x 12' the toughest ride I've had so far this OS. Was just able to hang on and hit the high end of my FTP for both. I didn't add in any z3 time since I'll be doing a hard run tonight and want to save my legs. 55' ride in total.
Another session in the book and a strong one for me.
7X2 @ 1.2; 1.21; 1.22; 1.23; 1.24; 1.26; 1.27 the 15' @.89 TOTAL 54' @.97.
@Mancona I also do 2' @.65% after the last Vo2 interval then take 2' break before moving in to the 85% stuff. I know later in the OS this does become 3' and even up to 5'. Other random thoughts the Vo2 or top end speed is the first thing to go when we take a break. Given the very strong aerobic engine that you have this might account for the harder sweet spot workouts after Vo2. Just speculation on my part though.
Coming back from the land of the last rites candidates now that I have antibiotics and steroids in my system. I tried today's workout. Humbling. Looking forward to when I'm back at full strength.
Wow, you guys killed it on the VO2 work today, nice job!
@Rob, welcome back. Way to get it done after all of that travelling, that has to be tough.
I "hate" VO2 rides and I "hate" my power meter, ha ha. Before this year the longest I ever did V02 intervals for was 1 minute. 2 minutes is crazy but I've been getting them done. I've been using trainer road the last couple weeks and today I think I would've shortened the last 4' of ON time into 1' intervals. 7 X 2 for me. I hit 1.2+ on every one. 15 minutes at Z3 at the end but it was really hard similar to what a lot of people here have said.
Got it in tonight. This is hard, but, this is great! Awesome job to everyone. I was excited to step up a bit more this week with: 272 for 1-3, 274 4-5, 276 for 6 and 286 for 7 with 286 being my 1.20. Nice easy 35 w 3 strides.
The bike is coming together now for me, I think. Those are my first FTP intervals over 1.0. I really like TR, and I really like training with power. Soon I will do my post of "What can I sell off in my garage in order to pay for my first powermeter?" (coming Spring 2014). I am thinking the car, but I have a beautiful Felt cruiser that looks to be going to waste here with no sidewalks and busy roads. Anyhow, keep up the good work everybody!
Got the intervals in this am, and 10 min of the sweet spot: 1.18, 1.21, 1.23, 1.23, 1.22, 1.22, 1.24, .87. (based on AP, not NP per the discussions) Not as much of an overachiever as Bill or Gordon, but it felt good. 45 min weight/ core wko this evening.
My rest day tomorrow starts out with 1000 swim drills (sshhh-I can't swim), then on-call so get to work late.
Re the variation in NP calculated by various programs: I have to think you're right about it being an artifact of the way things are averaged.
WKO ("the original") uses a 30 second AP "boxcar moving". It usually gets a few W higher than xPower in various other programs, even though the only difference between the two (as far as I know) is that xPower uses an exponentially weighted moving average rather than a flat/boxcar one. It's probably the case that the other programs have thought of some clever "cheat" because they don't want to explain to users over and over again why they don't calculate NP for intervals under 5 minutes, which WKO/TP at least used to do.
Today was 5 mi easy in the morning for me (which was hard) and 4 x 5'(3') (@110%) in the afternoon. I was tight on time, so the latter workout was only 42-43 min. 262/262/264/265. Target watts was 262. http://connect.garmin.com/activity/434727739 Nice IF of 0.95, but that's what you get when you do a fairly short warmup, 110% intervals, and not too much cool down when you're done. :-)
If you look at my workout, the second 5 minute interval has power kind of all over the place. I was watching something on TV that had a particularly engaging fight scene. I kept getting all distracted!
Decided NOT to "crush it" with MAX efforts but actually use the VO2 test watts (260) as my bottom and 10-20w above as a ceiling. Also would try and hold steady and if felt good neg-split. No more 30"at >400w then disintegrate for 20 sec then hang on-clawing back to a reasonable wattage...then get pissed and dig into some hidden anger energy and push back up to 300watts to finish in a panting heap. (all over 90seconds)
Held most of these well. Had to work to hold back the start of 1&2. had to come out of aerobars on 3 shortly and for middle 30sec of 4. 5,6and especially 7 where hard but in that I felt able to push the pace up a bit -recoveries where feeling very short by then and I started #7 at HR 142. Did 20 min of Z3 which felt OK. steady HR and power. Physically could have gone on but want able.
1) 272w 140HR (148max HR)
2) 270 146(156)
3) 264 148(158)
4) 258* 155(162)
5) 275 155(166)
6) 281 161(170)
7) 274 161(177)
Z3 (post 2 min RI) 164w 142HR
Ride TSS 104 NP (including WU& CD) 178w 1:26time
Ego says I didn't suffer enough...logic thinks this was probably just about right....
Ok, I need to crank up the effort on my VO2 intervals based on the percentages you guys are doing. I did all 7 with my power set at 1.18 and had no problems. On the plus side, I went 34 miles on the trainer so I could finish watching the movie of the day (Flight of the Phoenix).
Nice job on all the V02 workouts. I just want to reiterate the overachiever's (Bill, myself and a few others) came in to the OS in not the best of shape, me especially. Sorry Bill you get lump in with my sorry a$$. Our watts will come back very quickly as per coach Rich's week 2 video/podcast. I was using RPE to guide my workout not the raw power numbers as 253 watts (1.18 IF) would have been too easy (I was pushing 262-276 over the 7 intervals). We've also done a lot of OS' workouts to guide our efforts.
Having said that pushing it is not a bad thing now and then just note that you need to monitor the effects on downstream workouts. No need to crush the Vo2 workouts to have a crappy weekend. This will become more apparent especially as we get more Vo2 intervals, the FTP intervals get longer and cumulative fatigue of the OS sets in.
I want to see everyone posting in weeks 10-14 when it's getting very tough. Just look at Brenda Ross' posts on the dashboard about being tired or go lurk in the NOS forum seeing that a Vo2 max workout at your 5' test level or .95 of FTP is an acceptable and very legit workout anytime in the OS.
For those lurking here don't be afraid to post it will keep you accountable. Your numbers are just that and something to build upon.
@Gordon - great point on being here late in the game. This is my first OS, as I just joined EN in December. I hope to be here posting at the end of the OS. I think posting provides an accountability. Although others may not notice that I didn't post a given workout, I view my need to post as the accountability. Besides, I really like the workouts to date, although we shall see if I'm still saying that any the end of the OS. I also love the education that I'm getting in many areas of training and racing. It's great to be a member of the team!
Happy to report my first TH run yesterday of the OS at 5:30 last night did NOT prevent me from hitting my numbers today on the VO2max sets. I built into them and was stronger at the end than I started. I had to cut the ss time to 12' and only did 3' during the warm up due to (my usual) poor time management. Still, happy to be doing the full workouts again.
Oh, and the hungries have hit. I was really REALLY hungry today!
Wk 3 Thurs complete - 7 x 1.5 @ 1.24, 1.25, 1.26, 1.26, 1.26, 1.24, 1.27. Fairly consistent, finished the hour with time at 0.89 before CD. Legs feel trashed, however, but I'm still recovering fairly well at this point...
@ David H ... yes, it is probably better to try for an even power output thruout the interval. Very short (10-20 sec) bursts of massive power is not necessarily a bad thing, but it's not training what we trying to improve.
I've found, looking @ overall IF for the VO2 set a 1.0 IF when work + recovery intervals are included.
@ Paul - remember, the instructions for the VO2 intervals indicate a target range of 110-120% of FTP. Nothing wrong with 1.18 IF, IMO.
@Gordon and Al - thanks for the advice, I am actually going to try both approaches and do the run first a few times or add a few minutes between VO2 and sweet spot.
Personally I've never had good rides follong the "run first" protocol unless the run was in the morning and the ride was in the evening. I tried it a few times and if you haven't tried it you should...it might work better for you. For some reason the majority of my brick runs are really strong, which I attribute to being really warmed up from the biking.
@ Matt - my experience is the same as yours. I generally run faster with less effort, even after a hard bike, than I would starting the same run fresh.
@ Al I have table top flat 5min + intervals but these 1.5 min have taken a couple times to get used to. I've done "Max power 30sec, 1 min intervals w/o watching power meter mainly due to my head down and face contorted with eyes closed just give everything intervals... LOL.... But this last set was pretty stable especially 3-7 (keeping eyes open and on the numbers). As far as I know there isn't a way to tease out IF for just the work set on the Racermate (computrainer) as it computes a rolling average. I suppose I could start a new recording after WU.... Haven't gotten the paid Training peaks...seems like it would have segmental data analysis to do this? Anyone know?
@ Al I have table top flat 5min + intervals but these 1.5 min have taken a couple times to get used to. I've done "Max power 30sec, 1 min intervals w/o watching power meter mainly due to my head down and face contorted with eyes closed just give everything intervals... LOL.... But this last set was pretty stable especially 3-7 (keeping eyes open and on the numbers). As far as I know there isn't a way to tease out IF for just the work set on the Racermate (computrainer) as it computes a rolling average. I suppose I could start a new recording after WU.... Haven't gotten the paid Training peaks...seems like it would have segmental data analysis to do this? Anyone know?
Comments
Normalized power is calculated using 30second rolling averages so power is under sampled for short efforts ( less than 30 minutes ) but the degree of under sampling is accentuated as the intervals become shorter ( i.e about 10% at 5 minutes and 2.5% at 20 minutes). I use np for my 20 minute test to estimate FTP , but stick to avg power for short vo2 work.
On Tuesdays, I have no problem with the FTP intervals above my tested FTP (bad test) and no problem at all holding .90 or higher for the sweet spot, but both of the last two weeks I've struggled on the "easy" brick after
On Thursdays, I have no problem hitting the VO2 max intervals above the FTP based target and closer to my tested VO2, but both of the last two weeks I struggled to do the sweet spot at the end. Ironically, still did the brick run and felt great on the run just minutes after struggling with sweet spot on the bike.
I'm curious if this is happening because of the fatigue of Tue/Wed or if my body just recovers differently after V02 work than FPT work. I suppose I could swap tue / thur workouts to test...ease off on the sweet spot work on Tues to see if the brick run feels easy then.
Either way, I'm getting all the main sets done without issue so I'll just keep plugging away and observing for another week before changing anything. I know I should just re-test soon but I feel like I only have some many good test in me each year so I don't want to fall into the over testing pattern like I have in the past.
There may be some differences in how various analytic programs account for this. I read my data in three different programs: Power Agent, WKO+, and TrainerRoad, using the same data from my PowerTap hub (poweragent & WKO+) or ComputTrainer (TrianerRoad). TR and PA both show AP & NP; WKO+ does not show NP for intervals less than 5 minutes
Program Int 1 Int 2 Int 3
PowerAgent 243/246 242/244 245/245
TrainerRoad 236/230 237/227 238/231
WKO+ 243 242 245
Note two things: WKO+ and PA both have the same # for AP, showing they are analyzing that the same way. More important, the ratios in PA and TR are reversed. To me, that indicates PA must somehow be adjusting for the lag built into the NP formula, maybe it only is reporting the NP for the final 60 seconds of these 90 second intervals? This is probably what it does, as my Joule, reporting the PT data in real time, reports "0.000" as my interval IF for the first 30 seconds of any interval.
@ Mancona - This could have something to do with your recovery from anerobic efforts <2 minutes versus FTP which will tax your aerobic system more. I'm no physiologist but perhaps your body is not as efficient at reducing/recoving from the lactic acid of the very hard efforts. Perhaps an extra 2' or 4' before the sweet spot riding would do the trick. </p>
I found a couple articles the second outlining where the energy is coming from.
http://bmb.oxfordjournals.org/content/48/3/569.short
http://www.brianmac.co.uk/energy.htm
Definitely an interesting discussion that we could move out of the bike thread.
Back from Asia just in time to get my week 3 workouts in! 28 of last 72 hours were spent on a plane, so this week's schedule is a bit off for me. Did Tuesday's 2 x 12' (4') bike ride this AM and plan to do Wednesday's 3x1mi @z4 run tonight. (Plan to take tomorrow off to save my legs for Saturday & Sunday workouts.)
Combination of jetlag and a long week made this 2 x 12' the toughest ride I've had so far this OS. Was just able to hang on and hit the high end of my FTP for both. I didn't add in any z3 time since I'll be doing a hard run tonight and want to save my legs. 55' ride in total.
2 x 12' (4') @ 206 Watts (1.01 IF)
Another session in the book and a strong one for me.
7X2 @ 1.2; 1.21; 1.22; 1.23; 1.24; 1.26; 1.27 the 15' @.89 TOTAL 54' @.97.
@Mancona I also do 2' @.65% after the last Vo2 interval then take 2' break before moving in to the 85% stuff. I know later in the OS this does become 3' and even up to 5'. Other random thoughts the Vo2 or top end speed is the first thing to go when we take a break. Given the very strong aerobic engine that you have this might account for the harder sweet spot workouts after Vo2. Just speculation on my part though.
Coming back from the land of the last rites candidates now that I have antibiotics and steroids in my system. I tried today's workout. Humbling. Looking forward to when I'm back at full strength.
Rock on everyone.
@Rob, welcome back. Way to get it done after all of that travelling, that has to be tough.
I "hate" VO2 rides and I "hate" my power meter, ha ha. Before this year the longest I ever did V02 intervals for was 1 minute. 2 minutes is crazy but I've been getting them done. I've been using trainer road the last couple weeks and today I think I would've shortened the last 4' of ON time into 1' intervals. 7 X 2 for me. I hit 1.2+ on every one. 15 minutes at Z3 at the end but it was really hard similar to what a lot of people here have said.
Entire workout (222 watts):
Duration: 1:10:37 (1:15:02)
Work: 938 kJ
TSS: 98.4 (intensity factor 0.917)
Norm Power: 254
VI: 1.15
Min Max Avg
Power: 0 492 222 watts
Heart Rate: 93 177 151 bpm
Cadence: 28 138 78 rpm
Excited for a recovery day!
Just easing into the week...
Tuesday's FTP intervals are done.
2x7 (or 8? was it?) IF 1.01, 1.01, http://connect.garmin.com/activity/434719447
The bike is coming together now for me, I think. Those are my first FTP intervals over 1.0. I really like TR, and I really like training with power. Soon I will do my post of "What can I sell off in my garage in order to pay for my first powermeter?" (coming Spring 2014). I am thinking the car, but I have a beautiful Felt cruiser that looks to be going to waste here with no sidewalks and busy roads. Anyhow, keep up the good work everybody!
1.18, 1.21, 1.23, 1.23, 1.22, 1.22, 1.24, .87. (based on AP, not NP per the discussions)
Not as much of an overachiever as Bill or Gordon, but it felt good.
45 min weight/ core wko this evening.
My rest day tomorrow starts out with 1000 swim drills (sshhh-I can't swim), then on-call so get to work late.
Get well Peter! and strong work everyone!
Thursday Bike in the books....Legs heavy but executed the wko, Rest day tomorrow
WKO ("the original") uses a 30 second AP "boxcar moving". It usually gets a few W higher than xPower in various other programs, even though the only difference between the two (as far as I know) is that xPower uses an exponentially weighted moving average rather than a flat/boxcar one. It's probably the case that the other programs have thought of some clever "cheat" because they don't want to explain to users over and over again why they don't calculate NP for intervals under 5 minutes, which WKO/TP at least used to do.
Today was 5 mi easy in the morning for me (which was hard) and 4 x 5'(3') (@110%) in the afternoon. I was tight on time, so the latter workout was only 42-43 min.
262/262/264/265. Target watts was 262.
http://connect.garmin.com/activity/434727739
Nice IF of 0.95, but that's what you get when you do a fairly short warmup, 110% intervals, and not too much cool down when you're done. :-)
If you look at my workout, the second 5 minute interval has power kind of all over the place. I was watching something on TV that had a particularly engaging fight scene. I kept getting all distracted!
VO2s #2 done.
Decided NOT to "crush it" with MAX efforts but actually use the VO2 test watts (260) as my bottom and 10-20w above as a ceiling. Also would try and hold steady and if felt good neg-split. No more 30"at >400w then disintegrate for 20 sec then hang on-clawing back to a reasonable wattage...then get pissed and dig into some hidden anger energy and push back up to 300watts to finish in a panting heap. (all over 90seconds)
Held most of these well. Had to work to hold back the start of 1&2. had to come out of aerobars on 3 shortly and for middle 30sec of 4. 5,6and especially 7 where hard but in that I felt able to push the pace up a bit -recoveries where feeling very short by then and I started #7 at HR 142. Did 20 min of Z3 which felt OK. steady HR and power. Physically could have gone on but want able.
1) 272w 140HR (148max HR)
2) 270 146(156)
3) 264 148(158)
4) 258* 155(162)
5) 275 155(166)
6) 281 161(170)
7) 274 161(177)
Z3 (post 2 min RI) 164w 142HR
Ride TSS 104 NP (including WU& CD) 178w 1:26time
Ego says I didn't suffer enough...logic thinks this was probably just about right....
Nice job on all the V02 workouts. I just want to reiterate the overachiever's (Bill, myself and a few others) came in to the OS in not the best of shape, me especially. Sorry Bill you get lump in with my sorry a$$. Our watts will come back very quickly as per coach Rich's week 2 video/podcast. I was using RPE to guide my workout not the raw power numbers as 253 watts (1.18 IF) would have been too easy (I was pushing 262-276 over the 7 intervals). We've also done a lot of OS' workouts to guide our efforts.
Having said that pushing it is not a bad thing now and then just note that you need to monitor the effects on downstream workouts. No need to crush the Vo2 workouts to have a crappy weekend. This will become more apparent especially as we get more Vo2 intervals, the FTP intervals get longer and cumulative fatigue of the OS sets in.
I want to see everyone posting in weeks 10-14 when it's getting very tough. Just look at Brenda Ross' posts on the dashboard about being tired or go lurk in the NOS forum seeing that a Vo2 max workout at your 5' test level or .95 of FTP is an acceptable and very legit workout anytime in the OS.
For those lurking here don't be afraid to post it will keep you accountable. Your numbers are just that and something to build upon.
Happy to report my first TH run yesterday of the OS at 5:30 last night did NOT prevent me from hitting my numbers today on the VO2max sets. I built into them and was stronger at the end than I started. I had to cut the ss time to 12' and only did 3' during the warm up due to (my usual) poor time management.
Still, happy to be doing the full workouts again.
Oh, and the hungries have hit. I was really REALLY hungry today!
Wk 3 Thurs complete - 7 x 1.5 @ 1.24, 1.25, 1.26, 1.26, 1.26, 1.24, 1.27. Fairly consistent, finished the hour with time at 0.89 before CD. Legs feel trashed, however, but I'm still recovering fairly well at this point...
A couple of comments, on VO2 intervals...
@ David H ... yes, it is probably better to try for an even power output thruout the interval. Very short (10-20 sec) bursts of massive power is not necessarily a bad thing, but it's not training what we trying to improve.
I've found, looking @ overall IF for the VO2 set a 1.0 IF when work + recovery intervals are included.
@ Paul - remember, the instructions for the VO2 intervals indicate a target range of 110-120% of FTP. Nothing wrong with 1.18 IF, IMO.
@Gordon and Al - thanks for the advice, I am actually going to try both approaches and do the run first a few times or add a few minutes between VO2 and sweet spot.