Any else "Fat Adapted"?
I don't follow the "EN Approved" Core diet method of fueling workouts with tons and tons of carbs and sugar products. There, I said it. But I openly recognize that MANY MANY people inside (and outside) of EN have had great success with... (i.e. Coach P and hundreds of others).
I also like to experiment on myself and try plenty of different "Bio-Hacks" (a topic for a different thread). My nutrition journey started with my "addiction" to Recreational sugars which is pretty well documented HERE.
I then saw a lot of parallels between Sugar and Gluten, i.e. both are inflammatory agents in my body and both are highly addictive. So I cut gluten mostly out of my diet, which also means that I stopped eating most highly processed foods. My diet primarily consists of mostly "real food", vegetables, fruits, nuts, lean meats, etc.
Recently, I've traveled even further down the rabbit hole and have gone lower and lower in my carb intake (especially starchy carbs) and higher and higher in my fat intake (nuts, avocados, salmon, eggs, and yes bacon). I still eat carbs, just much less of them. I have also done "most" of my workouts in the last 9 months in a "fasted" state. It's crazy that I can now do a ~2.5 hr EN style High Intensity bike workout and follow it up with a ~45 min run on nothing but water after waking up fasted. And this is with NO Bonking. I've also experimented with this in a recent ~9.5 hour race as you can read about in more detail HERE.
I certainly don't claim to have it all figured out. But I eat more calories per day than I ever have. I no longer believe in the "Calories in vs. Calories Out" theory that ruled my body comp and nutritional beliefs for the first ~37 yrs of my life. I am also as lean as I have ever been in this point of the season. I sleep better and have been recovering MUCH better than previous years. Part of this improved recovery might be from better fitness as this is my 4th yr of training. Part might be from my numerous other "Biohacks" (i.e. supplements, compression, cold thermogenesis, Earthing, EMS, ART, Graston, etc, etc, etc.). But I have to believe that at least some of it is from a "cleaner" diet and particularly from the high fat content of my diet effecting me in multiple positive ways. To be clear, I know plenty of Vegans who have had similar results, same with super high Carb, low fat types. But my n=1 has been very interesting so far, but I will continue to experiment. I have not sworn off sugars and gu's and Infinit, etc. but I think they will continue to play a "secondary" role for me as I really think my body can now generate energy during extreme exercise from multiple channels (fat and sugar) now instead of just the potentially Bonk Producing continual sugar drip that I was previously accustomed to.
This forum post was actually sparked by a very interesting Blog Post that I read from Sami Inkinen HERE if you happen to be interested in an n=1 from someone else who happens to be WAY faster than I am... Figured it might be a topic people might be interested in discussing.
Comments
I don't doubt your experience and CERTAINLY don't want to dissuade you from your current diet. But a few things to think about specific to your training experience. Training in fasted state - you should have enough glycogen stored to last 3-3.5 hours at HIM biking and/or MP running, or 2.5 hrs @ Olympic tri paces. So really no need for *add'l* sugars during a race or workout of those lengths - you;re generating enough internally. As long as you replenish after, of course, you can do this day after day.And to emphasize your point about being better trained… As that occurs, you are increasing the ratio of fat/sugar for energy production at a given power or pace. One of the key elements of increasing 'fitness".
Have you encountered any of those side effects? Other than those, I do really well with lower sugar/carbs. I had done no recreational sugar last year for about 4 months but can't seem to muster the willpower again.
I enjoy reading your posts so keep em comin. Perhaps I can get re-inspired to go sugar free again...
Here was a snippit of my experience:
http://members.endurancenation.us/Forums/tabid/57/aft/11526/Default.aspx
Tell us what you do. Not to copy, but to have a thought process that may change the way I think about something. In my house, I do my best to live off of fruits/veggies/nuts/lean meat but seems like my crew is always stocking the house with Kryptonite foods that punch me in the face after a long day, whether it be tri day or life day. But, that's for another thread or another session with my shrink.
Pre Workout? just water during the workout? Post workout? caffeine?
Al mentions 2.5 to 3.5 hrs of effort before the effects are felt. Coincidentally, this is EXACTLY what I've picked up on over the last month. 2.5-3 hrs for me, personally. And, it doesn't seem to matter what or how much I eat the day before. So, I know I gotta bring a burrito or rice cake if I'm gonna 'work' past 2.5 hrs, whether it be a group ride, interval work, or gap ride.
Some good stuff here:http://zachbitterrunning.blogspot.com/
I have Alan Lim's book and make my own rice muffins and bars to take on longer rides. I tried the low carb UCAN route last year and it worked well on the bike but it didn't work for me on the run and I was only doing HIMs last year. (I did an Oly and it was fine, but it's in the 2.5 to 3 hour range Al mentioned.) This year in addition to the rice muffins I'm drinking either Skratch labs or OSMO. I can count on two hands the number of gels I've had this year. I have done some margarita cliff shots on runs during hotter weather. I often go out in the morning and do my workout in a fasted state without problems but then I have a recovery drink right away when I come in. I make most of my meals from scratch using simple ingredients. I'm an omnivore but more towards the lacto-ovo vegetarian side of things. This is my favorite time of year when all the local farms start producing nice vegetables. I do recreational sugar occasionally, but normally if my wife and I buy a quart of ice cream we'll end up throwing most of it away in a couple of months because it has ice crystals growing on it. (She's a triathlete too.)
I just saw that Ben Greenfield posted an article or podcast about his journey with fat adaptation today.He takes things to the extremes, but some of his experiments are enlightening. Here's the link to Part 1 http://www.bengreenfieldfitness.com/2014/05/how-much-fat-can-you-burn/
@Kim- I think you tried to go all the way to ketosis. I'm nowhere close to there. I still eat sweet potatoes, rice, quinoa, yams, etc. not to mention the occasional French fry... I don't eat a ton of that stuff, but some. I also still eat a banana about once a day along with other fruit. I'm not "No Carb" but call it "Less Carb" or maybe more appropriately, "Higher fat". I have not had any of the side effects that you mention, but for me this was a gradual transition over more than a yr and not a sharp change to my macros. I also take a lot of supplements, including amino acids. I've not seemed to have any electrolyte issues that I know of.
@Chris- pretty much every workout is the same. I get up between 4:07-5:00AM every day (including weekends). I drink a glass of water and have a bowel movement. If I run, I usually take the train into NY City, so I actually start running about 1.5 hrs after my alarm goes off. I'll have another drink from the water fountain before I head out, but that's it. I also don't carry water with me on my runs, but it hasn't really gotten hot yet. My longest runs have also topped out at just under 2hrs. When I bike, it's usually on my rollers in my basement except on weekends. I'll be on my bike within 20-30 mins after my alarm goes off. I have a water bottle with me on my rides and usually drink abut 1 per hour. I've done back-to-back Sufferfest videos followed by VO2 work with this approach before. I'm not a coffee drinker (hate the taste) so I never really use caffeine. I've tried it a few times during races and it usually ends badly. If my bike rides are super hard (like on weekends) I'll usually have a large smoothie afterwards. But for weekday mornings I'll 'sometimes' just have a quick recovery shake (Ultragen or similar). Almost every single day, my breakfast is the same: 4 egg omelet with spin ache, peppers, onions, mushrooms, cheddar cheese and walnuts. My lunches are usually a large salad or something like salmon and Brussels sprouts. I have some good options near where I work in the city. Jess makes AWESOME dinners for me most nights, usually a fish or chicken and some delicious vegetables (broccoli with bacon, or Brussels sprouts, or cauliflower, etc). My vice is I often have a Larabar and/or cheese for desert often with a small glass of scotch (I'm not a saint... And if there's an obvious place for improvement it would be to cut these out, but I enjoy that peaceful scotch with my wife...). I've dabbled with Intermittant Fasting usually on days when I have a light or no workout where I will not eat anything after dinner until either lunch or dinner the following day. I really think a lot of the eating I do on a schedule is simply because it's "lunchtime" and everyone around me is going to lunch, and not because I'm super hungry to go eat. This is way different when compared to when I used to have a bowl of cereal or oatmeal for breakfast... When I did that, I would be starving at 10AM and then again at noon... I also do other crazy stuff like sit on my couch at night while eating dinner wearing my Normatec Recovery boots for an hour while wearing an Ice Vest (but that's more on bio hacking and less around simply a high fat and sort of clean diet).
@Mark S, thanks for the link. I haven't seen that before so I will check it out.
@Mark M, I sometimes drink UCAN prior to my long outside rides. I have also tried it during rides and races (like at AmZof) but I'm still not 100% convinced. I also think I have listened to at least half of Ben Greenfield's ~300 podcasts. People have very widely ranging opinions on him, but Jess and I happen to like him very much. If you can look past the idea that he's often trying to sell you something or market a product to you, he has some really interesting ideas. He also seems to walk the walk by trying most of this stuff on himself. I have a Master's Degree in Bioengineering, so this nutrition experiment and bio-hacking has become a really big hobby of mine. There's no question that our bodies (and our minds) are pretty amazing things! Given that I'm not that fast and don't have the skinny little runner body type, I'm trying to find every possible (legal and healthy) way to extract every ounce of performance out of what I have. Not to mention I wouldn't mind increasing longevity and overall health at the same time...
Keep 'me coming though. I'm happy to answer any and all questions about my n=1 ongoing experiment, but I'd also like to learn from your experiences. I also wouldn't mind hearing from people who think I'm totally crazy or happen to have completely opposite views to mine. I'm not looking to pick a fight, but I think we'd all learn a bit from a healthy debate, because let's face it, no one REALLY knows the right answer, our bodies are way too complicated for absolute truths for any of this stuff...
Hey John — I always like reading your posts. I find I usually learn something.
Like Al Truscott, I wouldn't suggest you change anything in your n=1 study, but wanted to draw to your attention that if you reduce your carb intake too low, it will negatively impact on your training and racing.
When you first suggested that you were going to experiment with "fasted" wkos, I posted to the effect that I wasn't aware of any studies that proved that you could increase your fat burning in order to spare your glycogen stores (at the same power/pace). Since that time, I have come across a study that supports your approach — that is, training in a fasted state can train your body to burn more fat than otherwise, thereby sparing your glycogen. Unfortunately I can't lay my hand on it at the moment, which is why I delayed replying to your post.
Have you read Matt Fitsgerald's "Racing Weight"?
It's a great read and makes some very important (IMO) observations on athlete's diets based on the scientific literature and what successful endurance athletes actually eat.
He is a fan of improving the quality of your diet, rather than dieting per se — he definitely doesn't count calories in vs calories out, and notes the role of (good) fats in moderating your appetite.
He does however point out that the more an athlete trains, the more carbohydrates the athlete needs. For example (on page 102) he claims that 11-14 hours of training a week would need 3.75 to 4 gms of carbs per lb of (lean) body weight.
For me, I have started to buy into the thought that the higher Fat diet and "Less" carb 'potentially' also leads to other hormonal changes and possibly allows you to tap into more of your fat stores while exercising. Contrary to what the "Heart Healthy Diet" people have been preaching to us for the last 30+ yrs, eating Fat does not make you fat and eating high Cholesterol containing foods does NOT give you high cholesterol!
Regarding "being able to burn more fat during exercise IF you are fat adapted"...
Ben Greenfield's blog post that Mark linked to definitely suggests that it is not just possible, but likely: http://www.bengreenfieldfitness.com/2014/05/how-much-fat-can-you-burn/
The Sami Inkinen post I embedded in my original post also suggests this: http://www.samiinkinen.com/post/86875777832/becoming-a-bonk-proof-triathlete-fat-chance
I didn't read the full article of the following, but in the abstract of this article: http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00421-012-2504-8 they say: " We conclude that exercise with low glycogen levels amplifies the expression of the major genetic marker for mitochondrial biogenesis in highly trained cyclists. The results suggest that low glycogen exercise may be beneficial for improving muscle oxidative capacity."
So maybe my next n=1 might be hard training not just fasted, but "after" having depleted glycogens stores... or maybe I wait until after IMMT to try this, stay tuned...
You may be interested in "Scientific Training for Triathletes" by Phil Skiba which outlines what the scientific literature says about triathlon training?
I like it as well as his other book, "The Triathlete's Guide To Training With Power", which describes evidence-based training techniques and concepts.
Will be interesting what percentage of pros go this way in the future.
And would like to hear Sukhi's thoughts on his self experiments. But he may not be EN online currently.
I'll take the other side though.... I thought the book Racing Weight did a great job debunking the many diets and myths of nutrition , from the low carb, inflammation ,gluten free, PH , blood type , etc.... And made very good arguments for the calorie in vs. calorie out , high carb diet for athletes , backed by good athletes backgrounds..Ethiopian and Kenyan world class runners still consume 25% of their calories as sugar.... But they consume way less calories than we do.... I know there are some top level athletes on low carb approach but I believe that most of the high level successful athletes in all sports still practice high carb nutrition... So much of this is theory and can be statistically manipulated by who ever is "selling" or "writing"..... Most people are still just looking for the magic bullet to weight loss and will practice non-fueling wko's only to underperform and then overeat later unless they are extremely disciplined to make sure they are not depleting themselves to a level they cant get back from and fueling correctly afterwards (like yourself)....
I eat before , during , and after every wko. Unless its just something like a 30min swim first thing in the am then its just a coffee and food right after. Here are my reasons.
I'm fasted and hungry when I wake up. My body is an engine and needs fuel.
Feel the quality of the wko is better. I like to be slightly hungry when I start my wko.
Feel recovery is better.
Less likely to overeat later. ( I believe most people doing a wko fasted is looking for a fast weight loss and will pay the piper by overeating later in the day).
There is no way anyone is gonna do an IM fasted .... Training with food in my system is training for my IM day....
Wow its fun to see the WSM's duke it out!
We are all n=1 experiments and I think its so cool that this crazy sport encourages us to live in a state of heightened self awareness and analysis.
I'm glad the training in the fasted state works for you, John, I'm not sure it would work for me, although I have had some success on early morning runs with nothing but a teaspoon of coconut oil and water beforehand. I'm not sure if that would hold up day after day, however.
I think you would get a lot of benefit out of the Racing weight book. You are already applying some of the principles I took away from reading it, i.e. following a whole food, least amount of processing diet, not being afraid of fats, and in general simple real food is better. Carbs (and food as fuel, in general) are important, but probably the biggest lesson I learned from reading that book is how little elite athletes actually eat, compared to what I (used to) eat, as well as how to time and adjust components of meals to account for workouts.
Like you I also enjoy a glass of scotch (or beer or whatever) in the evenings, but I try to have it close to mealttime and several hours before bed, since I have read that it can disrupt rem sleep. I seem to be sleeping better since I have adopted this approach (my own n=1 experiment since I started using a sleep tracker on my iphone)
So... I need to suck it up and buy and read Racing Weight since so many have recommended it (the real reason I haven't yet is because I'm so used to listening to books now on audible and the thought of just holding a real book and reading it seems so sluggish vs. listening to them at 2x speed...)
"Battling it out" is a funny way to phrase it Satish... Especially because Tim and I are both on fairly extreme ends of the normal spectrum for our personal eating habits. Me with my 'Gluten Free, high fat, no recreational sugar" style of eating and Tim's "mostly Vegan" style of eating, but I'm pretty sure we both make it work for ourselves. And for the record, Tim's fitness and race results have validated any dam way he chooses to eat or fuel workouts! I still think two (or many) people who totally respect each other can have opinions and philosophies that fall on very different parts of a very large spectrum. That goes to show you how amazing the human body is. And I started this thread to debate as a means for learning and advancing my own n=1 experiment. I'm not married to any way of eating, I simply want to be as fast as possible. But I also care about longevity and overall health, so if I never did another competitive race in my life, I would still continue to experiment with diet and other bio-hacking techniques.
With that said, here are my counter-counterpoints to many of Tim's thoughtful counterpoints:TC: I'm fasted and hungry when I wake up. My body is an engine and needs fuel.
JW: Most of the "fuel" for "most" of your workouts is actually from stored muscle glycogen. I think the "food" eaten before or during any workout of less than say 2 hours does the following 1) satisfies your mind thinking that you are hungry or its "need" for something in your stomach 2) does elevate your blood glucose levels which can "also" be used as fuel (this is thought to be particularly useful for super high intensity intervals, but I have not had any issues with any of those while fasted).
TC:Feel the quality of the wko is better. I like to be slightly hungry when I start my wko.JW: I believe a lot of this is mental. It took me many months to get there, but I don't feel this anymore... Now maybe "my" mental issue is that I have convinced myself I don't need extra sugar fuel and I even imagine that I am burning my own fat and will not bonk. This pushes me to train even harder. The mind (placebo or real) is a very powerful thing on either side of this training coin.
TC: Feel recovery is better.JW: I KNOW my recovery is better this yr. There are so many factors that could be influencing this for me (an extra yr in the sport is a big one). But sugar IS an inflammatory agent. (stealing a little from Ben Greenfield from here, so choose to ignore if you wish but...) Advanced glycation end products (AGE’s) are a complex group of compounds formed when sugar reacts with amino acids. They are one of the major molecular mechanisms by which cellular damage accrues in your body. When sugar bonds with protein via glycation, this process creates inflammation, activates your immune system. As a result, your immune system’s scavenger cells bind to the AGE’s, and unfortunately, this defense process also causes a fair share of damage. I "think" that if you minimize this excess AGE production during your workouts that the recovery process will be "less strenuous" on your bodies other mechanisms.
TC: Less likely to overeat later. ( I believe most people doing a wko fasted is looking for a fast weight loss and will pay the piper by overeating later in the day).
JW: I sort of agree with you on this one. And I am not immune to this. BUT, "most" people who do big workouts will overeat throughout the day even if they fuel before and during their workouts... I am not doing fasted workouts as a method of calorie restriction. In fact, I do not believe in the calories in/calories out theory anymore. I eat WAY more calories now than I ever have and I am as lean as I have ever been. Not lighter per se, only leaner.
TC: There is no way anyone is gonna do an IM fasted .... Training with food in my system is training for my IM day....
JW: Totally Agree! I will also not do one fasted. In fact, I will be using plenty of sugar products during my IM and also in much of my training in the last 3-8 weeks leading up to it to dial in my raceday nutrition plan. It will simply not be the ONLY thing I will be depending on and I will be doing it slightly different than in the past as part of my ongoing n=1 experiment...
btw, If anyone reading this TRULY believe in the Calories in vs. Calories out theory, then please tell me how many calories are in a 16oz glass of ice water...
I completely agree that training short term fasted is a mental game with the understanding of muscle glycogen still being abundant.... Liver glycogen is another discussion...
JW one of your comments was "I simply wanna be as fast as possible".... Consider this.... If consuming a small amount of carbs before and during your wko's enabled you to put out a couple more watts or a couple more seconds per interval , multiplied times x number of wko's per week , multiplied x number of times yr over yr , would that not make your engine faster? Or would you rather just have a more efficient engine? (Of course those questions are debatable and hard to measure whether you can actually put out more work or not in a fueled vs fasted state BUT I think its pretty easy to say that you CAN'T put out more work in a Fasted state maybe equal but Not more)..... I would much rather have an engine that goes 150 mph but only gets 15 mpg than have a car that goes 100 mph and gets 20 mpg.... Just cause you can do a 2hr + very high quality wko (and I know you can via Strava) doesnt mean it cant be even better with the proper fueling....
There are several directions to this thread and nutrition.
1. The original Question about are you Fat Adapted? I think there are 3 parts to this. It seems pretty well accepted that we burn fat and carbs while exercising , both at low intensity and high intensity . The lower intensity burns a higher percentage of fat vs. carbs , for example a low intensity wko burning 400cal per hour maybe 200 fat and 200 carb so the percentage maybe 50%fat/50%carb ... The same individual would then burn a higher percentage of carb vs fat during a high intensity wko , for example 600cal per hour maybe 200 fat and 400 carb and the percentage maybe 33%fat/66%carb.... I made up those numbers but that is the way I understand it... The second part of the question would be can you really change the percentages of fat/carb burning at various intensities by way of training fasted? I think you probably could after you depleted your muscle glycogen , other wise your body would just be burning the fuel on hand it would have chosen anyway. And lastly even if you train your body to be more efficient does it come down to the bottom line with better performance?
2. These discussions almost always end up in the low-carb/paleo discussion... Again I'm high carb and Vegan... There is no right or wrong answer's... But a common theme I see with low carb and paleo discussions is they are always trying to lose weight. You don't see many plant based athletes discussing how to structure eating their plants so that they can lose weight.... In my previous obsession of Rock Climbing I did eat a high protein low carb diet (you think tri-athletes look anorexic try rock climbing) , I weighed more, more muscle, but a good upper body strength to weight ratio.... When I was transitioning to an endurance athlete but still Climbing I began to notice how much better I felt while climbing on a higher carb load... I always chuckle when I hear people change their diet and say I feel so much better , I have so much more energy , but this was one case where I really did feel and perform better with higher carb load. That is when I started my research further into Vegan vs Paleo etc and came to the conclusion plant based is for me... Going on 4-5 years plant based now , never felt better and never been faster.... I can gain weight by eating too much when ever I want and I can lose weight by limiting my calories in the same way.
3. Along the lines of the there is no right or wrong answer.... There are many ways to eat Healthier... Most extremes will agree that whole foods , less processed ... Period!
JW can't wait for the water explanation? Is it how many calories are in the water? Or is it how many calories does your body use by processing or changing the temp of the water?
Or is it along the lines of Net calories? Most people think they burn say 400-700 calories per hr during a wko but hey never factor in the metabolic calorie burn (of 60-100 cal per hr) that would have happened anyway by sitting on the couch watching TV?
Very interesting discussion/debate/battle of the titans. I often hope that string theory is true and I can figure out a way to access all those other universes. Then I could design some studies and have a study size of n>1!
I'll bite on the water question. If someone drinks 16 oz of ice water then it has -16.6 kcal because your body has to warm it up. If it's just sitting there then it depends on the ambient temperature.
And Mark is correct — from a thermodynamic perspective.
A Calorie is defined as the energy required to raise 1 gram of water by 1 degree Celsius — it is somewhat dependant on the atmospheric pressure and starting temperature.
A kilo-Calorie is 1000 times a Calorie, and is the quantity used when discussing the energy content of food.
So to JW's question about 16 oz of iced water:
16 oz of water is 16 x 28.3495 (= 454) gms
therefore the impact of drinking 16 oz of ice water in kilo-calories is:
(454/1000)*(temp of water - body temp)= 0.454*(2-37) = -16 kCals
I have assumed that the water was 2 degrees and the body temp is 37 degrees.
Just a thought on doing wkos when fasted, the important aspect remains as Al T points out in the second post, the really important thing is to ensure that you replenish your fuel stores after the wko to ensure you can do it day after day.
@Mark- you're good at math and at 'thinking'. So yup, that's about how many calories your body would burn to heat that ice water up when it gets into your body. The point if you read the label on a bottle of water you buy in the store it will say it contains 0 calories. This is a gross simplification of course, but this simplest form shows that our bodies will burn ~16 calories after ingesting something that is labeled as having 0 calories. There are a lot more complicated examples that I won't get into, but different foods and different compounds create effects once inside our bodies that could be extremely different than simply burning those same substances in a calorimeter. Sometimes this is from a hormonal response. Sometimes it simple requires the usage of a lot of 'calories' to break down the food or substance in question. Other times the thing consumed will set off chain reactions inside our bodies "increasing our metabolism" such that we are naturally burning more calories as we "sit on the couch and watch TV". Other times the opposite occurs where the food ingested slows down our system. So one could argue that technically speaking it is calories in vs calories out. But often the body's steady state 'burn rate' of calories is increased or decreased because of the foods (or supplements) we ingest, instead of us needing to 'exercise more' to burn those same calories. And regarding those calories and overeating, there are other factors in play than just 'will power'. Some foods satiate us more than others. Some foods produce an insulin spike with a following crash leading to REAL hunger. Other foods suppress ghrelin production which is our "Hunger Hormne" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghrelin I have found that on a higher fat diet I am simply not "hungry all the time" and can skip snacks or meals with very little consequence. BUT I don't do this for calorie restriction purposes... It's more of a hormone regulation and training for me. Again, this isn't about weight loss for me... I'm about as light as I can imagine being and still maintaining my strength and power.
I'm about 60lbs heavier than Tim, but we simply have drastically different body types and that will never change regardless of either of our diets or lifestyles...
Tim said "Or is it along the lines of Net calories? Most people think they burn say 400-700 calories per hr during a wko but hey never factor in the metabolic calorie burn (of 60-100 cal per hr) that would have happened anyway by sitting on the couch watching TV?"
Your power meter measures the amount of work you do pushing the pedals. It doesn't measure the work your body does in keeping you alive sitting on the bike. So the 60-100 cals you refer to are irrelevant to analysing how much work you did in the wko.
Post wko however, it is certainly the case that your metabolism will be burning more fuel compared to if you hadn't done the wko. This is particularly the case with a Thursday, Saturday and Sunday during an IM build.
OK, all joking aside. how can you all do this with food? How do your spouses handle this? John, you said that Jess cooks... but what about going out to eat? how do you all handle this? Does going out happen very rarely? Does work not require you to go out to eat for business meetings?
For me. Jess is totally into it as well which makes it very easy for me on nights and weekends. I eat a large omelet with tons of veggies and cheese almost every morning for breakfast (the deli near my office makes it). My staple go to lunches are either a massive "pick your own ingredients" salad from another deli next door to where I work or another place that offers salmon with side of Brussels sprouts and carrots and either sweet potatoes or mixed rice (remember, I'm not "no" carb). There's usually a "glaze" on the salmon, which most likely contains gluten, but I eat it anyways as I'm only 95% gluten free... I do go out for work dinners (but thankfully not that often). Never had a problem because I'm the client, so I'll usually pick either sushi or a steak joint. A massive bone-in filet (bonus points if you eat the marrow) with mushrooms and onions and slathered with butter and sides of vegetables fits right in to my diet, just pass on the bread and NO deserts at these places. If i do a work lunch, I usually default to a Cobb salad. No croutons, extra egg, and mmmmmm bacon. I always just do lots of olive oil and red wine vinegar for my dressing as you never know what kind of processed crap is in salad dressings (that's true at home or away).
Jess almost always makes awesome dinners. Last night I had a filet of wild caught salmon on a bed of steamed spinach with a side of baked/seasoned cauliflower and 2 chunks of aged cheddar on the side. I don't love cauliflower but I do like it the way she makes it, especially if I squirt mustard all over it (no I'm not kidding, try it). I had an Emergen-C for a drink. I also had a desert of a blueberry Larabar and a couple fingers of my Johnnie Walker Platinum (I'm only human). Then I was asleep by 8:05PM because I was exhausted and was getting up at 4:05 this morning to do my long run before work.
I'm sure this conversation is dead and gone. And everyone has forgotten about it, but I am going to comment anyways.
The title is "fat adapted", but John you eat too many carbs for your system to truly get fat adapted. The amount of carbs you take in with fruit, rice, and sweet potatoes are enough for your system to look for those carbs it knows you are eventually going to give it. To truly go Fat Adapted the total carb intake needs to be around 30g per day. A cup of rice is 45g alone. A sweet potato has 30 g. With your current diet you are in Fat Adapted limbo not quite adapted yet not enough carbs to fuel from that system.
I am 10 days into a Keto-Adapted plan (less than 30g of carbs/day). After doing well at IMMd the main concern leaving that race was my nutrition plan. I never felt properly fueled. So I started reading up on other fuel sources for endurance events and found Ketosis or Keto- Adapted. It takes 2-4 weeks to develop the system shift to fueling with fats instead of carbs, so I am at the very short end of the stick. I am running Portland Marathon on Sunday and going to attempt to complete it on no carbs. I have a chia mixture gel in a flask, and a low carb calorie drink in a bottle that I will carry. If it works, I have my new fueling plan. If I bonk and have to crawl back to the finish I will re-evaluate. This is a great time to experiment since it's a just a fun race that I do every year with no time goals. I will report here good or bad on Monday.
y'all have been reading my mind.
After the better part of a year of core diet fuel your workouts I was having miserable sugar crashes after workouts. I had been "training like I raced" with 1 bottle of perform per hr and either a gel or 1/2 of a power bar every 30min. It "worked" fine during sessions but the rest of the day was a blood sugar roller coaster for me. After a year with 2 IM's in it, my weight and body fat were actually up. I found myself crashing during the day and craving sugar in ways I havent craved anything since I kicked a couple of bad habits back in the 90's.
End result, about 10 days ago i decided I couldn't keep doing it any more. I switched to scratch labs at 2/3 strength, ditched the gels and bars for any sessions under 3 hrs, and ditched my first endurance recovery drink (Dextrose).
So far, so good. My power and pace didn't drop and my ability to make healthy decisions about food during the rest of the day has been greatly increased. I plan to roll this way for a while. I want to see if my body comp improves (and therefore improves my run), and more importantly, I want to see if I am happier. I still bring a power bar or a couple of gels on long sessions. I am just waiting till my power output diminishes. Seems to be about 3.5hrs. If I can find the tipping point then I can try adding needed carbs 15min prior to that point.
Over the off session, I would like to try the "hard reset" to get fat adapted. But not right now.
Glad you put this up john. I was gonna keep my experimenting to myself...
Now I do my first hour to hour and a half each am fasted, then start eating. If its a weekday, and i am going to work-breakfast is high glycemic carb (back loading carb when muscle primed to take in the glucose)with simple fats and protein (sticky rice ,olive oil, avo, fish-I tell people my breakfast now is sushi) If its a long training weekend day- real food, nuts, nut butters, feed zone rice cakes. I am stretching out my eating on the bike to every 1.5-2 hour but no longer. My reading says it takes 12-24 months to become truly adapted so not rushing the process. I remain zone/paleo the rest of the day-salads, protein, veggies-no gluten, grains, legumes, processed food but do eat sweet potatoes or acorn squash with diner (lower glycemic carbs with fatty foods so no insulin spike to prevent proper utilization of the fat) . I do eat chocolate And I eat a lot more fat-saturated and simple. I do have some dairy-butter, ghee, full fat yogurt (which isn't pale, but I'm not casein sensitive so go for it)
As for why a calorie is not a calorie, and why calories in and calories out do not make sense thermodynamically, to quote Jack Kruse, "one molecule of glucose has only six carbons. Glucose can make 28-30 ATP from it. One molecule of a free fatty acid, 18 carbon stearic acid, has three times as many carbons but makes FIVE TIMES the amount of ATP (147) while only having two times the caloric density of glucose! We have 80,000 kilo cal of stored fat and only about 4000kcal stored glycogen-which do you think we were meant to burn."
I'm a bit late to the thread too. However for the past month or so, I've been following a strict ketogenic diet with probably 30 to 50 g of total carbohydrate per day. I'm eliminated all added sugars, breads, and other carbs. The only carbs I'm getting are secondary - from lots of non-starchy green veggies, some fruit, dairy, and other natural sources.
It's a high fat, medium protein diet. Probably 70% of my calories are from fats including butter, avocados, coconut and olive oil, heavy cream, etc. I eat eggs, bacon, sausage, salmon, and steak but not in excess.
So far my results have been great. I've lost about 15 pounds (definitely NOT lean muscle) and >3 inches around my waist. My energy levels have been very steady and I've not been "hungry" since I started. Before, following workouts or at the end of the day, I would often be ravenous and would eat almost anything I could find: pizza, cookies, bread, whatever. That just hasn't happened. At all. I've not even been tempted. And I'm not counting any calories or feeling deprived in any way.
I haven't done a ton of workouts during this adaptation phase but have remained active. I did do an 11 mile trail run with just water and felt great. I'm only just now starting the November OS but so far my tests have been very solid (for me) and I have not faded toward the end. Best of all, I seem to recover quicker. I've read that the diet inhibits inflammation and so far I've found that to be true.
And FWIW my wife also started a few weeks ago and is already at the lowest weight she's been in over 10 years. She too has noticed energy and recovery benefits and it has not negatively impacted her daily workouts at the gym.
I know that for many this is total heresy and is not EN or RnP recommended. However I'm going to stick with it as long as I can and would be happy to share my experiences with anyone who's interested. Frank Zaffino- my neighbor and EN teammate - is the one who first turned me onto this. His results have been equally dramatic but over a longer time frame (about three months). And his performances have remained excellent as well, including a recent BQ at the Scranton marathon.
A good starting point for those interested in athletic performance is "The Art and Science of Low Carbohydrate Performance" by Jeff Volek and Steve Phinney. If you prefer podcasts then you might start with Ben Greenfield or Friday Fat Black.