I like Ben, he experiments and tells us what he does. I don't find him to be an evangelist about it. Vegetables are carbs. I am supposed to have 2/3 of my plate as vegetables. SO there's nothing low carb about what I'm doing! I wish I could do the plant based thing and I may try that again one day. I try to eat good fish, grass fed meat etc. when I do eat meat. I eat a lot of eggs. But it's the veggies and fat that are key. Too bad there isn't a large slice for beer. The fat has been the interesting thing. Bulletproof coffee has helped me with that last bit of regular dairy I was trying to get rid of. I thought I HAD to have cream in my coffee. YAY!
I didn't do this to lose weight, but it happened. I still have some to lose but I think it will come with more exercise. I agree it's great to hear what works for different people. Keep posting everyone!
@ Stephanie and Eva-I delayed replying as it had been a while since I read about UCAN and wanted to refresh. To be honest, I never even considered VESPA so I am not going to address that at all
As for Barry Maurey, he has been on Ben's podcast at least twice in the last year, once talking on intermittent fasting, and the last on nutritional ketosis. His nutrition business is linked to Ben's site, and it was actually on Ben's recommendation that I sought him out. Just goes to show you there isn't one right way to do something, but these guys all talk.
As for UCAN, the company makes two claims in their white paper: low glycemic index and fat burning promoting.
1. Low glycemic index-I think the science is very solid that UCAN does not raise insulin levels. I wholeheartedly support its use as a superior alternative to any other sport drink /gel/goo out there-they are all sugars that are high glycemic. I've read the drawback is its chalky taste
2-The advertising implies, as does the 'white' paper that it promotes fat burning. I think this is an overstatement, or stretching. If you go to the actual paper published by Volek et al, they studied two groups of trained cyclists over 150', a HMS group (UCAN) and MAL (maltose) group. They report no statistical difference overall in fat burning between the two groups. But at min 60 and 90 there 'approached' a statistical difference in favor of UCAN. If you look at the actual numbers, both groups had similar fat burning.
Peter Attias' blog comes up and he reports self testing (n=1) and consumed some UCAN as part of his nutrition over 3 days of workouts and mounted several metrics (glucose, lactate and hydroxybuterate). The most he could say was he didn't think UCAN interfered with his ability to burn fat-but understand this guy at zone 2 is almost 100% fat burning/highly fat adapted with RER approaching 0.7.
So, UCAN is a great product, and will help you control insulin while providing fuel. That is a good thing. However, if you goal is to get highly fat adapted, and you rely heavily on UCAN for fuel, you probably won't get there very quickly. If you use it strategically it probably won't get in the way. Its made from non GMO corn which is good. But, no matter what else you call it, it is a processed food product.
So, why don't I use it? Believe me, 8 months ago I was impressed and had my finger on the 'buy' button. But, I have been a nutrition geek all my adult life. I've been a zone dieter for over 20 years, and low glycemic all that time. I've eaten with 2/3 plate low glycemic veggies, 1/3 plate lean protein the size and thickness of the palm of my hand with a sprinkle of good fat (zone bronze method for estimating 40/30/30 CHO/P/F) for years. Its only been the last two years that I've morphed to the HF version of this diet so now I'm 50/25/25 F/P/C. During all the zone years I lived on bars and protein powders.
My nutritional journey has taken me now to the concept of JERF-just eat real food. I can't remember the last time I had a bar or a protein smoothie, but over a year. Obviously, from what I said above, UCAN is not real food. Also, in reality, during endurance, if you are burning the sugar/starch for fuel supplementing during exercise probably doesn't raise insulin much. (Remember, In the Volek study, even the maltose fuelers burned significant fat in zone 2). I chose to go with the recommendation of supplementing with real food (Feed Zone inspired rice cakes-check out the book if you haven't seen it) while gradually increasing the time I train without carb supplementation at all. My goal is to be highly fat adapted for my 2016 IMAZ and not to rely on processed products of any sort, and mostly my own fat store.
Seboahr, in Metabolic Efficiency, talks about fat adaptation being 75% diet adaptation, 25% exercise. Diet adaptation is really how you ramp up the enzyme systems necessary to become an efficient fat burner. I mentioned earlier HSL (hormone sensitive lipase) but also beta hydroxybuterate , pentose phosphate pathway and who knows what others. Intermittent fasting and gradually increasing the time you exercise without carb are two strategies i have been using to ramp up the fat burning. The adaptation takes time, 12-24 months at minimum. Given my history, I am hoping to be closer to the 12 month time period but my AAA race goal gives me 24+ months to get there
I am actually scheduled next month to do some metabolic testing here under Sebohar's protocol-so excited to find out where I am at in fat adaptation.
One last thing, strategic carbs:
Fat adaptation building: train fasted, deplete glycogen. Post exercise, then have high glycemic carbs -BACKLOADing carbs. At that time insulin sensitivity will be high and carbs will shunt into muscles as glycogen. When eating starchy carbs pair with lean protein and simple (shorter chain) fats-olive oil, avocado. As starchy carbs will stimulate insulin secretion (which you want to shunt the glucose into muscle), you don't want lots of fat in the bloodstream too-the fat will get stored as body fat in the presence of insulin. At other meals, when having fatty meats and and saturated fats, pair with low glycemic carbs including sweet potatoes and squash (minimal insulin stimulation, minimal fat storage). For example, (prior to starting this intermittent fasting with only bullet proof coffee in the am that I have been doing the last month), post wko breakfast would be sticky rice and fish- sardines packed in olive oil, also had grilled salmon and tuna (I have a great tuna ceviche recipe). Then lunches and dinners would be zone like with sweet potato or squash.
WOW - Betsy thank you! I read that 3 times now!! And I'll read it again - lots of info!! Love the FEED Zone book - my first IM in Tremblant i used a combination of sticky rice cakes and plain boiled potatoes w/sea salt during the bike so am familiar with their recipes and a fan! I listened in on a podcast recently with Sebohar - the primary discussion happened to be around UCAN but - he also talked about real food and how important that is in the day to day fueling as well as training/racing fueling plan..
I started my "journey" with fat adapted back on Jan. 9th so am VERY new as I mentioned.. However I've already been starting my fasted workouts on the weekends and so far so good - mind you I'm only up to 90m on the bike and 45 on the run but feel great during and after... My first race will be Galveston at the end of April and my thinking with the UCAN has been to use it as an intermediary fuel source for loonnng training and racing as I move through this year and learn how my body responds/adapts to this "new" way of fueling/eating...
Isn't it amazing though how once you start to look at the ingredients in some of the "sport nutrition" products - even the supposed healthy ones there are franken ingredients hidden all over... We were in a "all natural superstore" last night stocking up on a few things and for fun took a stroll down the sports aisle... No wonder we nicknamed this store the 7-Eleven of natural foods.... Even with the UCAN I ordered the plain powder after seeing some of the additives in the flavored ones..
So agreed - UCAN is still processed and not a pure naturally occurring food source but as you mentioned it can be a strategic supplement as you move to full fat adapted. We've come a long way from Gatorade baby!! Sorry had to sneak that one in there..
Seebohar's book Metabolic Efficiency sounds amazing - I'm struggling to find it here in Canada or a retailer who will ship it but my next step is to email the ENRG site and beg!!
Thanks for all the information and sharing your experiences - I truly believe that's the best way to learn!!
If you aren't able to get your carb stores, you will more likely learn to burn your fat. It happens. The UCAN finely milled corn starch, allows this to happen because it isn't sugar.
I just did an 8 hour bike ride on 3 scoops of UCAN, 2 quest bars, and 4 VESPAs. If not for my knee problem in the last 20 miles I could have gone for hours. NO GELS, NO SPORTS DRINKS. Everyone is different and you won't know until you try. 8 hours on 600 cals. I'll take it. And no sugar belly nausea.
Eventually you need to stop reading and listening to everybody's crap, and see what works for YOU. Get out there, try it.
Thanks Betsy - I got lucky!! I emailed ENRG and Bob replied and is sending me a copy!! Looking forward to the read.. Have a great evening and happy training!!
Thanks Betsy... and Eva, Food/Feed zone portables? we love that book. My spouse is a marathon/ultra guy. I have to have salty if I'm out there long, I wish I would have had something salty last Saturday for the ride. I was SO disorganized! and COLD.
Oh Stephanie... Cold is -26 celsius without a wind chill.. That was our weekend... Want to trade??? I grew up in Florida- Sarasota so I know - it does get cold there and its the cold that goes right into your bones and won't leave... Happy times in winter!!!
Hey All, Very late to this forum as i'm a newbie. But have to say, I second everything Betsy is saying - she is spot on! I very much follow the same protocol, and have been doing so for the last 5-6 years. In the very same way as Betsy, I always train fasted. Even my interval sessions are now also fasted. After a workout, I make sure I get some high GI carbs in, and for me its usually a banana or some muesli. Then, the rest of the day, its simply protein and fats, and my evening meal usually has a little bit more carbs in the way of potatoes or rice.
I find that this way of eating has helped me achieve fat adaption, but the carb intake in the evening helps me feel satiated and fuelled ready for the morning workout. Socially speaking, this also allows me to enjoy meals out with friends and family.
I now find that I can run for 2-2.5 hours on just water now, and I rarely fuel on bike rides. I just consume water with sea salt - and I am just fine. My run interval sessions never really go over an hour anyway, and my bike intervals are usually 90 minutes. I find that I have more than enough in reserve to see me through.
So in essence - train fasted. Ensure high GI post workout. Then Higher protein and higher fat, with a semi low GI carb load at the end of the day. I estimate that I usually have around 150gm carbs a day - and have never had any dreaded sugar spike or bonked to an extreme.
Gurghit-love your report! Always nice to find like minded folks! One thing I want to add that I've learned: Another reason for your evening carbs is to prevent adrenal stress-if you get hypoglycemic during the overnight fast the adrenals will start revving up cortisol output early to raise glucose. On a chronic basis this process will lead to adrenal burnout. As endurance athletes we are already stressing out our adrenals enough (BTW, any day now I will have results of my adrenal status from urine testing)
I am doing all my long training now for IMAZ now. I am playing around with fuel the second half of bike. What I've been doing is adding a teaspoon Of MCT oil/ serving base salt to each bottle of BCCA Drink. And have eaten a golf ball sized serving mashed sweet potato or taro mixed with butter/coconut milk. I wrap in cellophane and just bite a hole and squeeze out like GU. So far working pretty well. The goal is to be adapted to do the whole IM day fasted but don't believe one year into this I am there yet
@ Carolyn: you can be fat adapted in a matter of weeks but will continue to improve with time, sometimes up to several years. 11 months is sufficient to have a good IM. As with anything, the more we train the body the better it gets but it just becomes a matter of degree. If you have concerns you may want to consider a low carb approach like Ucan. That is what I am using at IMAZ.
Hey Carolyn! Nice to see a fellow athlete wanting to get away from high sugar fueling and relying on the body to power the way through events! Theres a hand full of people - Mr JW, Mrs JW, Betsy, myself who can give you lots of advise on this subject.
How can you atleast start to approach this? Well, start training fasted without a doubt. Wake up, black coffee/tea (no sugar!), warm up, then hit the run/bike. Will be a shock at first, but the more you do it, the longer the session, it gets easier. You can ween yourself off sugar, and adopt this type of training, and feel pretty good in less than a month. Make training like this (all sessions, intervals included) the norm. When you can start doing intervals in a fasted state, just imagine what your zone2 training will feel like! You'll be running for 3 hours easy on just water!
After that, you start experimenting with nutrition - this is where UCAN and VESPA comes in. Where historically, you would be on powerade etc, you start to consume the type of fuel that optimizes your stored energy, rather than replenishing your carb stores for you to just burn them off.
Your daily nutrition is also a key part to this I would say. Ideally, replenish glycogen stores at 2 key time only - 1)the night before a planned long fasted morning session (long being 2-3 hours) , and 2) after a fasted workout. Strategically introducing carbs at this time also helps you become a more fat adapted athlete without ever going to completely low carb/keto.
Theres a bunch of articles around this subject. Personally, listen to 'Endurance Nation' and 'Ben Greenfield' podcasts, and have a look at the 'lc-triathlete' blog. I hope i've given you some insight on how to start you 'fat-adapted' journey.
If you're dedicated to the cause, you can certainly become a fat-adapted athlete in less than a year. Even as quick as a few months.
When I originally read the topic "fat adapted" awhile back I assumed SBR as a fatty. That would be me. I have always had a body fat issue. I would have a huge cardio engine but still be considered on the edge of obesity due to my body fat percentage. I have/had a healthy "one pack."
Tom Glynn turned me onto a book called "Younger Next Year." In short, it is a very basic book on how to put off slowing down as we get older (I turned 50 two years ago). Basics are to keep moving, exercise to increase cardio and lift weights (high rep). Mainly for mainstream Couchlandrians. But it got my attention.
After much research reading the science (not just third-party uneducated blogs of which there are many) of how my body works, I changed things up late last year. I have gone into nutritional Ketosis and eating 50 grams of carbs or less, ~100 grams of protein and > 80 grams of fat each day. It also meant stepping out of November OS early this round as high intensity workouts generally don't burn much fat for me. Instead I have been doing Z1 (100 BPM or less) trainer rides and fast walking the dog at same BPM. The result so far has been a loss of 19 pounds and most as fat mass. The BF% has gone down several points as well. And once I got through the first week or so getting into Ketosis I am rarely hungry. I am also keeping up with my essential nutrients via vitamins and food choices.
To track BF%, I use my Withings scale. Not incredibly accurate but at least I can see I am trending in the right direction. What I am doing for accuracy is taking full body scans via a Dexa machine. Next scan is actually later today.
Result is what JW stated in his original post. I sleep better, feel better, have more energy and generally happier than I am usually. And all without In N Out burger. ;-)
So, the plan is to get my BF% down to 20 or lower by March 1st. Transition my body back into low glycemic (slow) carbs and increase my workout intensity for the month of March and then kick off Vineman 70.3 training April 1st. After Vineman I will stay in Oly to HIM shape and begin regular weight training.
Thanks to this thread, once I am set I can then experiment with what you smart kids are talking about below. Until then I need to keep it simple and not go all typical John Stark type-A all in craziness and do everything at once. For this fatty, slow and steady will (hopefully) get me to the finish line.
I hope this may help others who are in my position.
@John-great progress! You will get there and be 'lean and mean'!
I too have stepped off the vdot mill and am trotting my dogs at HR 126 only. My speed work in JOS will be 20% of run as z4-5 strides. From my reading, too much running at z2-3 is just 'no mans land', increasing adrenal stress but not contributing to my goal of a faster IM distance run.
Having mentioned adrenal stress, chronic ketosis can take its toll on adrenals (and as cortisol rises, it steals from the downstream pathway and thyroid and sex hormones decline). Since you are into metrics (already doing DEXA, my next is in about a month) I highly recommend a 'functional medicine' type practitioner who will look at HPA and see how hormones are holding up through all this. I did a DUTCH test before AZIM (a four sample dried urine test to see diurnal pattern) and have stage 2 dysfunction, meaning cortisol too high in am, low in pm (stage 3 burnout is just flatline low).
I'm at the 20% BMI so do the modified kerosis as you mentioned you will transition too. It works! I train fasted and never bonk. I measured ketones after and am in mild ketosis-ketones 1-1.8, and blood glucose never has dropped below 93. But I have starchy carb at dinner and am adding back in some more fruit. The PM carb is what is supposed to help the adrenals. I also take a ton of herbal adrenal support.
If interested in this type of testing, I could recommend someone in your area
I didn't want to write a book, but a visit to my doctor also helped get this going. I visit the office once a week now. I am in good hands with a practitioner for all the deep dive body stuff.
Had a good Dexa scan yesterday. I have cut my visceral fat in half (wasn't too high to begin with) and losing fat mass, but also lost 2 pounds of muscle mass over the past month. So I will start swimming in low Z1 for 30't three x/week and do light weights a couple of days a week to fend of losing anymore muscle.
Lastly, I am not on an extreme Ketosis regimen. I test my blood levels every night at 8 PM and I am at ~ .8 millimolars - on the lower end of the range. And just for fun I started testing blood glucose and in the morning I am at 77 and after 2 hours after breakfast I am at ~88. After dinner ~100. I am also hitting all my essential nutrient numbers. So I am in a good place. My blood pressure is also very, very good.
@John-love all the numbers! Glad to hear you are heavily involved with a practitioner in this. I'm studying functional medicine and am on the 5 year plan retiring from the OR and opening a wellness practice. One of my Gurus, Chris Kresser, is in the Bay Area, California Center for Functional Medicine. You should check out his blog, it's not about ketosis, but wellness.
My last DEXA before IMAZ I had leaned out-lost a pound, 2lbs fat, gained 1of muscle but had put on visceral fat! Now I was only .25 and doubled to .5 but still haven't figured that out yet-attributed it to inflammation of training.
I haven't tested my glucose and ketones lately as training was low until JOS started. Today was 116 glucose after trainer ride fasted (BCCAs in water only) and my lowest ketones in a while-.04. I think you've motivated me to check the postprandial curves. I've been worrying that I'm heading towards the training athlete who develop insulin resistance as my glucoses always run high
Yeah! Relieved to find some of our EN team is working on low-sugar alternatives to fueling long workouts/races! Surprised I even found this thread as fat adaption and ketosis aren't on my radar. My goal is simply not wanting to repeat the low-grade GI distress I was in this season leading up to my 70.3. I don't know whether it was the high sugar recommendations for in-season training/racing, or ingesting some bug in open water swimming (tested negative for typical bugs) as I quit the sugar and took antibiotics at the same time to cover all the bases after my race; immediately felt so much better!
With my big race behind me, I'm looking to build the fueling plan for next season around something with a whole lot less sugar. The idea of rice cakes with bacon for long rides was not so appealing initially, but I'm now "hungry" to find fueling alternatives! I'll be soon be checking out the
I talked very briefly with Coach P. about this the other day--about wishing there was an "alternate protocol" for the team, as I love the simplicity of the "standard race day protocol"... I just don't love all the sugar and how it impacts my body! Coach P. sounded supportive of the alternate protocol idea (hope I'm not speaking out of turn here :-), so I'd love to kick-start that process somehow! Would love to hear your suggestions for an "alternate race day protocol"
I have found that Cronometer is an amazing app to utilize as you can set it to track a ketogenic diet based on net carb intake and let the tracker do the work for you! Not sure if you’ve ever checked it out, but it is the most customizable and extensive macro/micro nutrition tracker I’ve ever used. Thought it may be of worth mentioning here. Hope you’re well brother!
Comments
I like Ben, he experiments and tells us what he does. I don't find him to be an evangelist about it. Vegetables are carbs. I am supposed to have 2/3 of my plate as vegetables. SO there's nothing low carb about what I'm doing! I wish I could do the plant based thing and I may try that again one day. I try to eat good fish, grass fed meat etc. when I do eat meat. I eat a lot of eggs. But it's the veggies and fat that are key. Too bad there isn't a large slice for beer.
The fat has been the interesting thing. Bulletproof coffee has helped me with that last bit of regular dairy I was trying to get rid of. I thought I HAD to have cream in my coffee. YAY!
I didn't do this to lose weight, but it happened. I still have some to lose but I think it will come with more exercise. I agree it's great to hear what works for different people. Keep posting everyone!
As for Barry Maurey, he has been on Ben's podcast at least twice in the last year, once talking on intermittent fasting, and the last on nutritional ketosis. His nutrition business is linked to Ben's site, and it was actually on Ben's recommendation that I sought him out. Just goes to show you there isn't one right way to do something, but these guys all talk.
As for UCAN, the company makes two claims in their white paper: low glycemic index and fat burning promoting.
1. Low glycemic index-I think the science is very solid that UCAN does not raise insulin levels. I wholeheartedly support its use as a superior alternative to any other sport drink /gel/goo out there-they are all sugars that are high glycemic. I've read the drawback is its chalky taste
2-The advertising implies, as does the 'white' paper that it promotes fat burning. I think this is an overstatement, or stretching.
If you go to the actual paper published by Volek et al, they studied two groups of trained cyclists over 150', a HMS group (UCAN) and MAL (maltose) group. They report no statistical difference overall in fat burning between the two groups. But at min 60 and 90 there 'approached' a statistical difference in favor of UCAN. If you look at the actual numbers, both groups had similar fat burning.
Peter Attias' blog comes up and he reports self testing (n=1) and consumed some UCAN as part of his nutrition over 3 days of workouts and mounted several metrics (glucose, lactate and hydroxybuterate). The most he could say was he didn't think UCAN interfered with his ability to burn fat-but understand this guy at zone 2 is almost 100% fat burning/highly fat adapted with RER approaching 0.7.
So, UCAN is a great product, and will help you control insulin while providing fuel. That is a good thing. However, if you goal is to get highly fat adapted, and you rely heavily on UCAN for fuel, you probably won't get there very quickly. If you use it strategically it probably won't get in the way. Its made from non GMO corn which is good. But, no matter what else you call it, it is a processed food product.
So, why don't I use it? Believe me, 8 months ago I was impressed and had my finger on the 'buy' button.
But, I have been a nutrition geek all my adult life. I've been a zone dieter for over 20 years, and low glycemic all that time. I've eaten with 2/3 plate low glycemic veggies, 1/3 plate lean protein the size and thickness of the palm of my hand with a sprinkle of good fat (zone bronze method for estimating 40/30/30 CHO/P/F) for years. Its only been the last two years that I've morphed to the HF version of this diet so now I'm 50/25/25 F/P/C. During all the zone years I lived on bars and protein powders.
My nutritional journey has taken me now to the concept of JERF-just eat real food. I can't remember the last time I had a bar or a protein smoothie, but over a year. Obviously, from what I said above, UCAN is not real food. Also, in reality, during endurance, if you are burning the sugar/starch for fuel supplementing during exercise probably doesn't raise insulin much. (Remember, In the Volek study, even the maltose fuelers burned significant fat in zone 2). I chose to go with the recommendation of supplementing with real food (Feed Zone inspired rice cakes-check out the book if you haven't seen it) while gradually increasing the time I train without carb supplementation at all. My goal is to be highly fat adapted for my 2016 IMAZ and not to rely on processed products of any sort, and mostly my own fat store.
Seboahr, in Metabolic Efficiency, talks about fat adaptation being 75% diet adaptation, 25% exercise. Diet adaptation is really how you ramp up the enzyme systems necessary to become an efficient fat burner. I mentioned earlier HSL (hormone sensitive lipase) but also beta hydroxybuterate , pentose phosphate pathway and who knows what others. Intermittent fasting and gradually increasing the time you exercise without carb are two strategies i have been using to ramp up the fat burning. The adaptation takes time, 12-24 months at minimum. Given my history, I am hoping to be closer to the 12 month time period but my AAA race goal gives me 24+ months to get there
I am actually scheduled next month to do some metabolic testing here under Sebohar's protocol-so excited to find out where I am at in fat adaptation.
One last thing, strategic carbs:
Fat adaptation building: train fasted, deplete glycogen. Post exercise, then have high glycemic carbs -BACKLOADing carbs. At that time insulin sensitivity will be high and carbs will shunt into muscles as glycogen. When eating starchy carbs pair with lean protein and simple (shorter chain) fats-olive oil, avocado. As starchy carbs will stimulate insulin secretion (which you want to shunt the glucose into muscle), you don't want lots of fat in the bloodstream too-the fat will get stored as body fat in the presence of insulin. At other meals, when having fatty meats and and saturated fats, pair with low glycemic carbs including sweet potatoes and squash (minimal insulin stimulation, minimal fat storage).
For example, (prior to starting this intermittent fasting with only bullet proof coffee in the am that I have been doing the last month), post wko breakfast would be sticky rice and fish- sardines packed in olive oil, also had grilled salmon and tuna (I have a great tuna ceviche recipe). Then lunches and dinners would be zone like with sweet potato or squash.
WOW - Betsy thank you! I read that 3 times now!! And I'll read it again - lots of info!! Love the FEED Zone book - my first IM in Tremblant i used a combination of sticky rice cakes and plain boiled potatoes w/sea salt during the bike so am familiar with their recipes and a fan! I listened in on a podcast recently with Sebohar - the primary discussion happened to be around UCAN but - he also talked about real food and how important that is in the day to day fueling as well as training/racing fueling plan..
I started my "journey" with fat adapted back on Jan. 9th so am VERY new as I mentioned.. However I've already been starting my fasted workouts on the weekends and so far so good - mind you I'm only up to 90m on the bike and 45 on the run but feel great during and after... My first race will be Galveston at the end of April and my thinking with the UCAN has been to use it as an intermediary fuel source for loonnng training and racing as I move through this year and learn how my body responds/adapts to this "new" way of fueling/eating...
Isn't it amazing though how once you start to look at the ingredients in some of the "sport nutrition" products - even the supposed healthy ones there are franken ingredients hidden all over... We were in a "all natural superstore" last night stocking up on a few things and for fun took a stroll down the sports aisle... No wonder we nicknamed this store the 7-Eleven of natural foods.... Even with the UCAN I ordered the plain powder after seeing some of the additives in the flavored ones..
So agreed - UCAN is still processed and not a pure naturally occurring food source but as you mentioned it can be a strategic supplement as you move to full fat adapted. We've come a long way from Gatorade baby!!
Sorry had to sneak that one in there..
Seebohar's book Metabolic Efficiency sounds amazing - I'm struggling to find it here in Canada or a retailer who will ship it but my next step is to email the ENRG site and beg!!
Thanks for all the information and sharing your experiences - I truly believe that's the best way to learn!!
If you aren't able to get your carb stores, you will more likely learn to burn your fat. It happens. The UCAN finely milled corn starch, allows this to happen because it isn't sugar.
I just did an 8 hour bike ride on 3 scoops of UCAN, 2 quest bars, and 4 VESPAs. If not for my knee problem in the last 20 miles I could have gone for hours. NO GELS, NO SPORTS DRINKS. Everyone is different and you won't know until you try. 8 hours on 600 cals. I'll take it. And no sugar belly nausea.
Eventually you need to stop reading and listening to everybody's crap, and see what works for YOU. Get out there, try it.
@Eva-if you can't get your hands on the book, I will be happy to send you a copy-just let me know.
Thanks Betsy - I got lucky!! I emailed ENRG and Bob replied and is sending me a copy!! Looking forward to the read.. Have a great evening and happy training!!
Thanks Betsy... and Eva, Food/Feed zone portables? we love that book. My spouse is a marathon/ultra guy. I have to have salty if I'm out there long, I wish I would have had something salty last Saturday for the ride. I was SO disorganized! and COLD.
Oh Stephanie... Cold is -26 celsius without a wind chill.. That was our weekend... Want to trade???
I grew up in Florida- Sarasota so I know - it does get cold there and its the cold that goes right into your bones and won't leave... Happy times in winter!!! 
That's funny, I grew up in North eastern Iowa... zoiks! I do not miss THAT weather!
Wheat Belly is a great book. I don't eat anything made of wheat anymore. What a relief!
Very late to this forum as i'm a newbie. But have to say, I second everything Betsy is saying - she is spot on!
I very much follow the same protocol, and have been doing so for the last 5-6 years. In the very same way as Betsy, I always train fasted. Even my interval sessions are now also fasted. After a workout, I make sure I get some high GI carbs in, and for me its usually a banana or some muesli. Then, the rest of the day, its simply protein and fats, and my evening meal usually has a little bit more carbs in the way of potatoes or rice.
I find that this way of eating has helped me achieve fat adaption, but the carb intake in the evening helps me feel satiated and fuelled ready for the morning workout. Socially speaking, this also allows me to enjoy meals out with friends and family.
I now find that I can run for 2-2.5 hours on just water now, and I rarely fuel on bike rides. I just consume water with sea salt - and I am just fine. My run interval sessions never really go over an hour anyway, and my bike intervals are usually 90 minutes. I find that I have more than enough in reserve to see me through.
So in essence - train fasted. Ensure high GI post workout. Then Higher protein and higher fat, with a semi low GI carb load at the end of the day. I estimate that I usually have around 150gm carbs a day - and have never had any dreaded sugar spike or bonked to an extreme.
G
One thing I want to add that I've learned:
Another reason for your evening carbs is to prevent adrenal stress-if you get hypoglycemic during the overnight fast the adrenals will start revving up cortisol output early to raise glucose. On a chronic basis this process will lead to adrenal burnout. As endurance athletes we are already stressing out our adrenals enough (BTW, any day now I will have results of my adrenal status from urine testing)
I am doing all my long training now for IMAZ now. I am playing around with fuel the second half of bike. What I've been doing is adding a teaspoon Of MCT oil/ serving base salt to each bottle of BCCA Drink. And have eaten a golf ball sized serving mashed sweet potato or taro mixed with butter/coconut milk. I wrap in cellophane and just bite a hole and squeeze out like GU. So far working pretty well. The goal is to be adapted to do the whole IM day fasted but don't believe one year into this I am there yet
Nice to see a fellow athlete wanting to get away from high sugar fueling and relying on the body to power the way through events! Theres a hand full of people - Mr JW, Mrs JW, Betsy, myself who can give you lots of advise on this subject.
How can you atleast start to approach this? Well, start training fasted without a doubt. Wake up, black coffee/tea (no sugar!), warm up, then hit the run/bike. Will be a shock at first, but the more you do it, the longer the session, it gets easier. You can ween yourself off sugar, and adopt this type of training, and feel pretty good in less than a month.
Make training like this (all sessions, intervals included) the norm. When you can start doing intervals in a fasted state, just imagine what your zone2 training will feel like! You'll be running for 3 hours easy on just water!
After that, you start experimenting with nutrition - this is where UCAN and VESPA comes in. Where historically, you would be on powerade etc, you start to consume the type of fuel that optimizes your stored energy, rather than replenishing your carb stores for you to just burn them off.
Your daily nutrition is also a key part to this I would say. Ideally, replenish glycogen stores at 2 key time only - 1)the night before a planned long fasted morning session (long being 2-3 hours) , and 2) after a fasted workout. Strategically introducing carbs at this time also helps you become a more fat adapted athlete without ever going to completely low carb/keto.
Theres a bunch of articles around this subject. Personally, listen to 'Endurance Nation' and 'Ben Greenfield' podcasts, and have a look at the 'lc-triathlete' blog. I hope i've given you some insight on how to start you 'fat-adapted' journey.
If you're dedicated to the cause, you can certainly become a fat-adapted athlete in less than a year. Even as quick as a few months.
G
When I originally read the topic "fat adapted" awhile back I assumed SBR as a fatty. That would be me. I have always had a body fat issue. I would have a huge cardio engine but still be considered on the edge of obesity due to my body fat percentage. I have/had a healthy "one pack."
Tom Glynn turned me onto a book called "Younger Next Year." In short, it is a very basic book on how to put off slowing down as we get older (I turned 50 two years ago). Basics are to keep moving, exercise to increase cardio and lift weights (high rep). Mainly for mainstream Couchlandrians. But it got my attention.
After much research reading the science (not just third-party uneducated blogs of which there are many) of how my body works, I changed things up late last year. I have gone into nutritional Ketosis and eating 50 grams of carbs or less, ~100 grams of protein and > 80 grams of fat each day. It also meant stepping out of November OS early this round as high intensity workouts generally don't burn much fat for me. Instead I have been doing Z1 (100 BPM or less) trainer rides and fast walking the dog at same BPM. The result so far has been a loss of 19 pounds and most as fat mass. The BF% has gone down several points as well. And once I got through the first week or so getting into Ketosis I am rarely hungry. I am also keeping up with my essential nutrients via vitamins and food choices.
To track BF%, I use my Withings scale. Not incredibly accurate but at least I can see I am trending in the right direction. What I am doing for accuracy is taking full body scans via a Dexa machine. Next scan is actually later today.
Result is what JW stated in his original post. I sleep better, feel better, have more energy and generally happier than I am usually. And all without In N Out burger. ;-)
So, the plan is to get my BF% down to 20 or lower by March 1st. Transition my body back into low glycemic (slow) carbs and increase my workout intensity for the month of March and then kick off Vineman 70.3 training April 1st. After Vineman I will stay in Oly to HIM shape and begin regular weight training.
Thanks to this thread, once I am set I can then experiment with what you smart kids are talking about below. Until then I need to keep it simple and not go all typical John Stark type-A all in craziness and do everything at once. For this fatty, slow and steady will (hopefully) get me to the finish line.
I hope this may help others who are in my position.
~ Stark
I too have stepped off the vdot mill and am trotting my dogs at HR 126 only. My speed work in JOS will be 20% of run as z4-5 strides. From my reading, too much running at z2-3 is just 'no mans land', increasing adrenal stress but not contributing to my goal of a faster IM distance run.
Having mentioned adrenal stress, chronic ketosis can take its toll on adrenals (and as cortisol rises, it steals from the downstream pathway and thyroid and sex hormones decline). Since you are into metrics (already doing DEXA, my next is in about a month) I highly recommend a 'functional medicine' type practitioner who will look at HPA and see how hormones are holding up through all this. I did a DUTCH test before AZIM (a four sample dried urine test to see diurnal pattern) and have stage 2 dysfunction, meaning cortisol too high in am, low in pm (stage 3 burnout is just flatline low).
I'm at the 20% BMI so do the modified kerosis as you mentioned you will transition too. It works! I train fasted and never bonk. I measured ketones after and am in mild ketosis-ketones 1-1.8, and blood glucose never has dropped below 93. But I have starchy carb at dinner and am adding back in some more fruit. The PM carb is what is supposed to help the adrenals. I also take a ton of herbal adrenal support.
If interested in this type of testing, I could recommend someone in your area
@Betsy: Thanks! And good work!
I didn't want to write a book, but a visit to my doctor also helped get this going. I visit the office once a week now. I am in good hands with a practitioner for all the deep dive body stuff.
Had a good Dexa scan yesterday. I have cut my visceral fat in half (wasn't too high to begin with) and losing fat mass, but also lost 2 pounds of muscle mass over the past month. So I will start swimming in low Z1 for 30't three x/week and do light weights a couple of days a week to fend of losing anymore muscle.
Lastly, I am not on an extreme Ketosis regimen. I test my blood levels every night at 8 PM and I am at ~ .8 millimolars - on the lower end of the range. And just for fun I started testing blood glucose and in the morning I am at 77 and after 2 hours after breakfast I am at ~88. After dinner ~100. I am also hitting all my essential nutrient numbers. So I am in a good place. My blood pressure is also very, very good.
First 20 pounds done!
Thanks again.
John
Glad to hear you are heavily involved with a practitioner in this. I'm studying functional medicine and am on the 5 year plan retiring from the OR and opening a wellness practice. One of my Gurus, Chris Kresser, is in the Bay Area, California Center for Functional Medicine. You should check out his blog, it's not about ketosis, but wellness.
My last DEXA before IMAZ I had leaned out-lost a pound, 2lbs fat, gained 1of muscle but had put on visceral fat! Now I was only .25 and doubled to .5 but still haven't figured that out yet-attributed it to inflammation of training.
I haven't tested my glucose and ketones lately as training was low until JOS started. Today was 116 glucose after trainer ride fasted (BCCAs in water only) and my lowest ketones in a while-.04.
I think you've motivated me to check the postprandial curves. I've been worrying that I'm heading towards the training athlete who develop insulin resistance as my glucoses always run high
Yeah! Relieved to find some of our EN team is working on low-sugar alternatives to fueling long workouts/races! Surprised I even found this thread as fat adaption and ketosis aren't on my radar. My goal is simply not wanting to repeat the low-grade GI distress I was in this season leading up to my 70.3. I don't know whether it was the high sugar recommendations for in-season training/racing, or ingesting some bug in open water swimming (tested negative for typical bugs) as I quit the sugar and took antibiotics at the same time to cover all the bases after my race; immediately felt so much better!
With my big race behind me, I'm looking to build the fueling plan for next season around something with a whole lot less sugar. The idea of rice cakes with bacon for long rides was not so appealing initially, but I'm now "hungry" to find fueling alternatives! I'll be soon be checking out the
https://feedzonecookbook.com/ recommended in this thread!
I talked very briefly with Coach P. about this the other day--about wishing there was an "alternate protocol" for the team, as I love the simplicity of the "standard race day protocol"... I just don't love all the sugar and how it impacts my body! Coach P. sounded supportive of the alternate protocol idea (hope I'm not speaking out of turn here :-), so I'd love to kick-start that process somehow! Would love to hear your suggestions for an "alternate race day protocol"
I have found that Cronometer is an amazing app to utilize as you can set it to track a ketogenic diet based on net carb intake and let the tracker do the work for you! Not sure if you’ve ever checked it out, but it is the most customizable and extensive macro/micro nutrition tracker I’ve ever used. Thought it may be of worth mentioning here. Hope you’re well brother!