Just read your post in the 5hr power thread. That thing is starting to blow my mind.
Before I read that and got tempted to start working on some future/unknown IM, I had planned on hacking my GF/HIM build on the weekends by using Saturday for a big bike (5x 20'(5') @ .8-.85, about 3-3.5hrs total ...is this RPP type work?) with a short brick run and Sunday gets a run focus with an easier spin after (~2hrs).
After reading your post about RPP intervals, it sounds pretty similar to what I had already planned.
Now that you've talked me off the ledge of training for that future/unknown IM 'could' bike, do you feel that these weekend workouts are something I can keep? They aren't that different than the HIM plan weekends, IIRC.
Once I get this ironed out, I'll try to leave you alone so you can get that Kona training in. Thanks for the help and keeping me straight.
Chris I think you have a full (at least 8 wk) build into your HIM so no need to hack until that plan starts (after GF). Since HIM goal intensity is .8 to .85, doing RPP (Race Pace Plus) at the same intensity isn't exactly the point. So I would suggest you spend the first few weeks getting calibrated...
Wk 1 = 3.5 hours as 1 hour in Zone 2, Steady. Then 8 x 25' as 20' work, 5' easy spin to recover / eat / fuel / stretch. Intervals are: + .8 + .81 + .82 + .83 + .84 + .85 + .86 + .88 Cool down for remainder.
Note your HR across each effort and how long it takes you to recover, etc. You will probably identify a "spot" where it got pretty dang hard.
Wk 2 is same 60' @ Z2, but this time start with .81, and repeat. Week 3 is start with .82 and repeat.
Even with a conservative start, you are spending 50% of your ride time at upper end or higher of goal HIM watts...eventually you'll find that, say .87 is your sweet spot. So you can refocus to say do .87 for 4 to 5 intervals, then do the last 3 t0 4 at .88 to .9.
It's all about finding that line and pushing it just a little bit!
OK...I know you're busy, so get back to this when you can....
Calibration Saturday: Tri bike FTP 245. Rolling Hills with lots of short/steep hiccups. 4' soft pedal for recovery between intervals.
30' ez/conservative. Cut it down to 30' cuz that takes me to a good starting location.
1) 20' @ .81 & VI 1.01...nailed it, smooth and controlled.
2) 20' @ .82 & VI 1.01...this was tougher b/c of some big hills, but still nailed it, smooth and controlled. Thinking 'I got this.'
3) 20' @ .83 & VI 1.01...Still felt in control of watts, keeping the VI good but was working harder to keep the watts up on the descents so that I wouldn't have to compensate with bigger watts on the ups to raise the Pavg or Pnorm.
4) 20' @ .83 & VI 1.02...traffic picking up, net loss of elevation over the interval, this ^ starting to happen and get out of my control.
5) 20' @ .83 & VI 1.05... VI says it all. Not sure if it's b/c of terrain, traffic, fatigue or all of it. RPE was noticeably rising. Descents became feel only (Steady Pressing), this wasn't strong enough to keep watts up near goal, and then I'd spend flats and uphills pushing .9 to 1.1 trying to drive the Pnorm or Pavg up. Despite knowing better than to do that. Fatigue causing stupidity and bad decisions?
6) 20' @ .85 & VI 1.04....same as ^^^.
stopped the intervals at this point b/c I felt that I was getting way off track. And, I was tired.
Rode zn2 for a few minutes until a merge with one of the local saturday group rides. Since I bailed on the last 2 intervals and I was recovered, I pulled about 8' at 1.1 - 1.3, rode smart at the line sprint, holding big watts for 4-5' and finding the right wheels to win the sprint. I know....big deal. But, it was a good mojo boost to finish the ride since I was a little pissed that I lost VI control and bailed on the last 2 intervals.
68 miles in 3:28, tired at the end but not toasted.
Thoughts?
Also, I don't think that I'm going to be able to add a volume pop this week. I have a couple of days off but they are sandwiched in between some very busy family days. LifeTSS is up already, not too sure if compounding that with a TriTSS would be smart. I know I could pull it off but I don't know how long it would take for me to recharge. Think I'm going to continue with my usual GF style work during the week and then the longer bike & run focus on Sat and Sun, respectively.
Chirs, that's a HARD WORKOUT on paper. Add in real world, temps, terrain and it gets mucho harder. I think you did a great job of managing your effort. Next time try .8, then .81, then sit on .82 for the rest...maybe last one could be a big harder...let's see how that goes for you.
No need for the volume, family > training and you are in a great place right now!
I've sent in a TSR to Rich but haven't heard back. Might be because my events don't really lead up to any 'big' race, sort of...
AAA race: Go Crush 6Gap Century. 100mi with 12k climbing. Gonna attack it with about 5-7 other good cyclists. All in, get light, get fast. Become friends with that pain! Late Sept.
AA race: Chatt Waterfront Tri, Olympic. Late June.
NOTE: I need a 2 week break from training in midJuly for a big vacay.
B: Assault on Mt. Mitchell. May 16th. Might be popping in on you guys when you're down @BRPcamp. I might arrive Fri night and get the Sat/Sun workouts in. I'll get in touch with you about $ options, or he and I can fend for ourselves and just join you guys for some good company.
B: B2B Half. Mid Oct. just a MAYBE, might do kind of thing.
C: IMFL. Yes, I said 'C'. haven't signed up. would like to move forward with IM Style training thru the year. IF ken glah offers up those last seconds slots, I MIGHT sign up last second if my fitness is golden and my SAU's are strong.
As for now, I've figured out some important things with my work schedule.
I have 4 days to go big. Sat, Sun, and my 2 shorter work days (usually get out by 2-3).
I have 3 days where short & sweet is the only way. And, usually, one of these 3 might be a wash and a no wko day.
I have an idea with how I think I'm going to hack my plans during the year to fit into this^^^ but I wanted to see your thoughts first.
Thanks!
Chris
oh, to wrap up 2015, I went to Macon, horrible storms, had a great swim (for me. PR by 10'), got misled by a cop at an intersection early in the bike, was the only HIM racer who had to ride 65 hilly miles, struggled on the run during the miles 11/12, but managed to get 3rd in the the AG. So, knowing that a few of the faster guys DNS'd due to the storm, I stil thinkl it was a 'victory' since I'm the only racer who did close to 80 miles. Success, in my books.
Chris, if your TSR was anything like that thing ^above^ I am not sure he'll do anything! That's a ton of info with nothing immediate on the horizon.
What are your incremental / process goals? Weight? Bike target? Run target?
Personally I am recommending a Run / Swim block at the end of the year...then Jan OS...enjoying my run time right now...aiming to hit 65 mile week by the end of this year....
It's really not much more than Bike Alot / Run Alot / Keep Up with Local Swim Coach....and race just enough to keep the fire burning.
That Chatt oly and some local sprints will do the trick. But, like I said, I plan on being ready for IMFL so that I can make the choice if one of those last second slots open up and the planets are aligned around here.
You asked about goals..... 1) 6Gap in 6 hours: This is a HUGE reach. Will have to be 4+ w/kg and optimally primed if I'm gonna shave 45' off of my only other attempt (2012). I will be stronger and lighter (~150 lbs) and will have 5 or more like minded (and ability) riders working together that day.
2) slow run build over the year. At 30mi/wk now. Want 50mi/wk in Oct of 2016.
Chris, that's helpful...and ambitious without being "boring" like a regular triathlon season. I think we need to be careful to maintain some variety in your year so you can have progress without burnout / breakdown.
Example:
1) Run Durability with Swims, occasional bikes...through Jan. 2) Jan is OS work for bike improvements, maintain run, swim drops a bit. 3) Out of OS into a 2 week big swim block, rest run...bike on weekends... 4) Big bike push with frequent running into Mt Mitchell...
I understand and will get started on that direction.
on a sidenote, the assault on mt mitchell ride is 2 weeks after you guys are in Asheville. Gonna send you a PM about any possible options that could get me, and maybe one other rider, in on your Saturday and Sunday rides.
Thanks for the help and hope you and your fam have a great holiday season......with less snow that last year.
Thanks Chris! PM is no bueno...use the blue button at the bottom right of the site to contact me...I am sure we can work you in .... Traditionally local folks have dropped in for a day of fun as their life permits...
I'm wondering what day you plan on climbing Mt. Mitchell when you are down at the BRPCamp in early May. I'm going to do my best to climb it once or twice before Assault on Mt. Mitchell in mid May. That being the case, If I can coordinate my recon climb with you and the teammates, it might be a bit more 'entertaining'. Not sure if I can make this work (fam/work/planets misaligned) but I'm going to at least tease the idea and see what I can do.
If your wheels down time is reasonable (8 or later), I might come up the morning of. If your leaving earlier, I'll prob come up late the night before and crash somewhere. I'll prob do a short brick run after but I'll have to bolt pretty soon after. If I get a SAU pass to do this recon ride, I can't abuse it. SAU bank is almost big enough for another IM so I want to let that continue for a bit.
Of course, if I'm mooching camp time, I have no prob tipping well for a one ride kind of day. Just let me know.
Chris, no worries...Blue Dot is more personal stuff. This is okay here. Yes we do Mt Mitchell every year. Epic. Last year it was snowing and ice and fog up there.
The ride we do is down the BRP from Linville Falls, so not as hard as the Assault but no cakewalk either. IIRC we are wheels up like 8 or 8:30 from there...round trip has us back to Linville by 4 or 5 ish (with stops). We can figure out how to plug you in for the day for sure!
I have a question for you about becoming a beast on the bike (and, thus, a better IM runner, too).
While training for Mt. Mitchell/Six Gap and with no IM's this year, I have started doing intervals with a much a higher cadence (75-> 95-105). Getting used to it. Then, I had some bike adjustments made and have been doing a couple of weeks on the tri bike. Still doing intervals with much higher cadence (and noting the higher HR and RPE that comes with keeping that cadence up in the aero position) plus some longer rides where the cadence is up in the mid 80s. The mid 80s seems to be much more 'comfortable' than the upper 90s/low 100s.
Now, with enough scouring, I'm reading that strength training on the trainer with low cadence intervals will build great bike strength for the triathlon dude.
As I set out this year to just ride a ton, run a ton, and improve my swim, what direction should I take to improve my long term 'Best IM I Can Be' plan?
If it means doing workouts with low cadence even if it doesn't benefit my 2 mountainous centuries, I'm ok with that. Getting faster at IM is my ultimate goal and I'm fit enough to finish these centuries today.
I'm just a little confused at what the latest consensus is in the coaching world in regards to becoming the strongest IM cyclist (and, thus, a faster IM runner) a coach's athlete can become.
Thanks for checking in. Without going to that thread, I think that getting better at biking is more biking first. At whatever your normal cadence is. Then mixing up that cadence is a good stressor...but most folks (newbies aside) default to a generally appropriate cadence. Kind of like running...most default to the most efficient stride for them.
There are room for improvements, but they are usually incremental year by year. So going from 90 to 85 would be consistent with my experience, not 75 to 100.
So getting better is like this:
Step 1 = riding more.
Step 2 = Taking that more, and making parts of it harder (EN Style).
Step 3 = Taking that more/harder you and making it more aero (forum tweaks) as there's speed there.
Step 4 = Taking the more / harder / aero you and making you lighter, for W/kg sake as there's speed there.
Step 5, is your discussion, which is the specifics of gearing and crank length, gear ratios, etc.
Yes, it does. Each one of those bullets has seen much improvement over the last 5 years. But, I'm my own worst enemy, and, I feel that I could do more in each and every one of those bullets despite the progress made.
Obviously, my biggest handcuff with all of this is working 50-65 hrs/wk.
Hang in there with the repairs/renovations. This too shall pass.
On a totally different page, I think I need drop my account into Maintenance Mode. Things have been absolutely nuts around here since the holidays. I'm ready for 2016 to be over. And, it's only 3/11. It's been one thing after another. I keep waiting for a break in the storm. The stress is starting to spill over into how Sheri & I handle things with each other.
I think I need to trim some extraneous 'noise'. I considered canceling my membership to try to score points but the MM looks like a good alternative. I dig this team, all the people that make it happen, so much and I like to think I'll make it back when things settle down and I'm locked in on some more predictable race schedules.
Chris, you got it. You know we'll be here...we'll miss your frequent (smart!) input to keep us all on point. Buckle down, take your time, we'll be here!
Comments
Before I read that and got tempted to start working on some future/unknown IM, I had planned on hacking my GF/HIM build on the weekends by using Saturday for a big bike (5x 20'(5') @ .8-.85, about 3-3.5hrs total ...is this RPP type work?) with a short brick run and Sunday gets a run focus with an easier spin after (~2hrs).
After reading your post about RPP intervals, it sounds pretty similar to what I had already planned.
Now that you've talked me off the ledge of training for that future/unknown IM 'could' bike, do you feel that these weekend workouts are something I can keep? They aren't that different than the HIM plan weekends, IIRC.
Once I get this ironed out, I'll try to leave you alone so you can get that Kona training in. Thanks for the help and keeping me straight.
Notorious Self Sabotager,
Chris
Wk 1 = 3.5 hours as 1 hour in Zone 2, Steady. Then 8 x 25' as 20' work, 5' easy spin to recover / eat / fuel / stretch. Intervals are:
+ .8
+ .81
+ .82
+ .83
+ .84
+ .85
+ .86
+ .88
Cool down for remainder.
Note your HR across each effort and how long it takes you to recover, etc. You will probably identify a "spot" where it got pretty dang hard.
Wk 2 is same 60' @ Z2, but this time start with .81, and repeat. Week 3 is start with .82 and repeat.
Even with a conservative start, you are spending 50% of your ride time at upper end or higher of goal HIM watts...eventually you'll find that, say .87 is your sweet spot. So you can refocus to say do .87 for 4 to 5 intervals, then do the last 3 t0 4 at .88 to .9.
It's all about finding that line and pushing it just a little bit!
Thanks a ton.
Calibration Saturday: Tri bike FTP 245. Rolling Hills with lots of short/steep hiccups. 4' soft pedal for recovery between intervals.
30' ez/conservative. Cut it down to 30' cuz that takes me to a good starting location.
1) 20' @ .81 & VI 1.01...nailed it, smooth and controlled.
2) 20' @ .82 & VI 1.01...this was tougher b/c of some big hills, but still nailed it, smooth and controlled. Thinking 'I got this.'
3) 20' @ .83 & VI 1.01...Still felt in control of watts, keeping the VI good but was working harder to keep the watts up on the descents so that I wouldn't have to compensate with bigger watts on the ups to raise the Pavg or Pnorm.
4) 20' @ .83 & VI 1.02...traffic picking up, net loss of elevation over the interval, this ^ starting to happen and get out of my control.
5) 20' @ .83 & VI 1.05... VI says it all. Not sure if it's b/c of terrain, traffic, fatigue or all of it. RPE was noticeably rising. Descents became feel only (Steady Pressing), this wasn't strong enough to keep watts up near goal, and then I'd spend flats and uphills pushing .9 to 1.1 trying to drive the Pnorm or Pavg up. Despite knowing better than to do that. Fatigue causing stupidity and bad decisions?
6) 20' @ .85 & VI 1.04....same as ^^^.
stopped the intervals at this point b/c I felt that I was getting way off track. And, I was tired.
Rode zn2 for a few minutes until a merge with one of the local saturday group rides. Since I bailed on the last 2 intervals and I was recovered, I pulled about 8' at 1.1 - 1.3, rode smart at the line sprint, holding big watts for 4-5' and finding the right wheels to win the sprint. I know....big deal. But, it was a good mojo boost to finish the ride since I was a little pissed that I lost VI control and bailed on the last 2 intervals.
Thoughts?
Also, I don't think that I'm going to be able to add a volume pop this week. I have a couple of days off but they are sandwiched in between some very busy family days. LifeTSS is up already, not too sure if compounding that with a TriTSS would be smart. I know I could pull it off but I don't know how long it would take for me to recharge. Think I'm going to continue with my usual GF style work during the week and then the longer bike & run focus on Sat and Sun, respectively.
No need for the volume, family > training and you are in a great place right now!
Hey Patrick.
Getting ready to get ready for 2016.
I've sent in a TSR to Rich but haven't heard back. Might be because my events don't really lead up to any 'big' race, sort of...
AAA race: Go Crush 6Gap Century. 100mi with 12k climbing. Gonna attack it with about 5-7 other good cyclists. All in, get light, get fast. Become friends with that pain! Late Sept.
AA race: Chatt Waterfront Tri, Olympic. Late June.
NOTE: I need a 2 week break from training in midJuly for a big vacay.
B: Assault on Mt. Mitchell. May 16th. Might be popping in on you guys when you're down @BRPcamp. I might arrive Fri night and get the Sat/Sun workouts in. I'll get in touch with you about $ options, or he and I can fend for ourselves and just join you guys for some good company.
B: B2B Half. Mid Oct. just a MAYBE, might do kind of thing.
C: IMFL. Yes, I said 'C'. haven't signed up. would like to move forward with IM Style training thru the year. IF ken glah offers up those last seconds slots, I MIGHT sign up last second if my fitness is golden and my SAU's are strong.
As for now, I've figured out some important things with my work schedule.
I have 4 days to go big. Sat, Sun, and my 2 shorter work days (usually get out by 2-3).
I have 3 days where short & sweet is the only way. And, usually, one of these 3 might be a wash and a no wko day.
I have an idea with how I think I'm going to hack my plans during the year to fit into this^^^ but I wanted to see your thoughts first.
Thanks!
Chris
oh, to wrap up 2015, I went to Macon, horrible storms, had a great swim (for me. PR by 10'), got misled by a cop at an intersection early in the bike, was the only HIM racer who had to ride 65 hilly miles, struggled on the run during the miles 11/12, but managed to get 3rd in the the AG. So, knowing that a few of the faster guys DNS'd due to the storm, I stil thinkl it was a 'victory' since I'm the only racer who did close to 80 miles. Success, in my books.
and, yes, I'm updating my digital profile stuff
What are your incremental / process goals? Weight? Bike target? Run target?
Personally I am recommending a Run / Swim block at the end of the year...then Jan OS...enjoying my run time right now...aiming to hit 65 mile week by the end of this year....
It's really not much more than Bike Alot / Run Alot / Keep Up with Local Swim Coach....and race just enough to keep the fire burning.
That Chatt oly and some local sprints will do the trick. But, like I said, I plan on being ready for IMFL so that I can make the choice if one of those last second slots open up and the planets are aligned around here.
You asked about goals.....
1) 6Gap in 6 hours: This is a HUGE reach. Will have to be 4+ w/kg and optimally primed if I'm gonna shave 45' off of my only other attempt (2012). I will be stronger and lighter (~150 lbs) and will have 5 or more like minded (and ability) riders working together that day.
2) slow run build over the year. At 30mi/wk now. Want 50mi/wk in Oct of 2016.
65mi, eh? Wow! I need more hours in my days.
Example:
1) Run Durability with Swims, occasional bikes...through Jan.
2) Jan is OS work for bike improvements, maintain run, swim drops a bit.
3) Out of OS into a 2 week big swim block, rest run...bike on weekends...
4) Big bike push with frequent running into Mt Mitchell...
Etc....
on a sidenote, the assault on mt mitchell ride is 2 weeks after you guys are in Asheville. Gonna send you a PM about any possible options that could get me, and maybe one other rider, in on your Saturday and Sunday rides.
Thanks for the help and hope you and your fam have a great holiday season......with less snow that last year.
how you been?
I'm wondering what day you plan on climbing Mt. Mitchell when you are down at the BRPCamp in early May. I'm going to do my best to climb it once or twice before Assault on Mt. Mitchell in mid May. That being the case, If I can coordinate my recon climb with you and the teammates, it might be a bit more 'entertaining'. Not sure if I can make this work (fam/work/planets misaligned) but I'm going to at least tease the idea and see what I can do.
If your wheels down time is reasonable (8 or later), I might come up the morning of. If your leaving earlier, I'll prob come up late the night before and crash somewhere. I'll prob do a short brick run after but I'll have to bolt pretty soon after. If I get a SAU pass to do this recon ride, I can't abuse it. SAU bank is almost big enough for another IM so I want to let that continue for a bit.
Of course, if I'm mooching camp time, I have no prob tipping well for a one ride kind of day. Just let me know.
Thanks a ton for any consideration!
The ride we do is down the BRP from Linville Falls, so not as hard as the Assault but no cakewalk either. IIRC we are wheels up like 8 or 8:30 from there...round trip has us back to Linville by 4 or 5 ish (with stops). We can figure out how to plug you in for the day for sure!
I'll decide on staying over night or making it a (long) day trip when we get closer.
Thanks!
Getting those repairs done?
I have a question for you about becoming a beast on the bike (and, thus, a better IM runner, too).
While training for Mt. Mitchell/Six Gap and with no IM's this year, I have started doing intervals with a much a higher cadence (75-> 95-105). Getting used to it. Then, I had some bike adjustments made and have been doing a couple of weeks on the tri bike. Still doing intervals with much higher cadence (and noting the higher HR and RPE that comes with keeping that cadence up in the aero position) plus some longer rides where the cadence is up in the mid 80s. The mid 80s seems to be much more 'comfortable' than the upper 90s/low 100s.
Now, with enough scouring, I'm reading that strength training on the trainer with low cadence intervals will build great bike strength for the triathlon dude.
As I set out this year to just ride a ton, run a ton, and improve my swim, what direction should I take to improve my long term 'Best IM I Can Be' plan?
If it means doing workouts with low cadence even if it doesn't benefit my 2 mountainous centuries, I'm ok with that. Getting faster at IM is my ultimate goal and I'm fit enough to finish these centuries today.
I'm just a little confused at what the latest consensus is in the coaching world in regards to becoming the strongest IM cyclist (and, thus, a faster IM runner) a coach's athlete can become.
(we have some recent banter going on the Gen Training Disc/Bike Cadence for IM thread http://members.endurancenation.us/Forums/tabid/57/aft/20519/Default.aspx)
There are room for improvements, but they are usually incremental year by year. So going from 90 to 85 would be consistent with my experience, not 75 to 100.
So getting better is like this:
Step 1 = riding more.
Step 2 = Taking that more, and making parts of it harder (EN Style).
Step 3 = Taking that more/harder you and making it more aero (forum tweaks) as there's speed there.
Step 4 = Taking the more / harder / aero you and making you lighter, for W/kg sake as there's speed there.
Step 5, is your discussion, which is the specifics of gearing and crank length, gear ratios, etc.
Make sense?
Obviously, my biggest handcuff with all of this is working 50-65 hrs/wk.
Hang in there with the repairs/renovations. This too shall pass.
I think I need to trim some extraneous 'noise'. I considered canceling my membership to try to score points but the MM looks like a good alternative. I dig this team, all the people that make it happen, so much and I like to think I'll make it back when things settle down and I'm locked in on some more predictable race schedules.
~ Coach P
I'll be in touch thru other avenues while in MM...whether you dig it or not!