Chris, I remember that discussion and that is what I was trying to speak to In My comment here. It can start very innocent without malicious intent but that still doesn't make it right. I recently posted about using someone else's bib for the army ten miler. Innocent question no bad intent on my part but I was quickly righted by fellow ENers on the ethics and integrity of doing that and how it was not the right call. Glad I asked.
Nate, agreed. No hard feelings here. I think along similar lines with what you went thru with the bib, I'm simply trying to get across the point of how easy it is to get off track. Having a place to toss ideas around is huge in many regards, from training ideas and racing strategies to keeping others accountable for their actions. When left alone, we can usually talk ourselves into any angle that we want. With friends/cohorts/peers watching and listening, it's a little bit harder to lie to self with rationalization and justification.
And, from my end, that was very, very appreciated. To use your words...glad I asked.
This keg of dynamite lived in a grey area, clouded by the justification of claiming to stick to the 7m, or 10, rule. It's teamwork, no way around that.
It can be done cleanly. There were three brothers that raced IMNY that finished 1, 2, 4 in the M30-34 AG. By all accounts they rode cleanly despite riding "with each other" for 112 miles.
Put 3 EN jerseys in a row, even 12 meters apart, and let's start putting out the flames!
No way anyone buys that we stayed legit.
As I mentioned, it MAY be worth the risk if the athlete and friends have a shot at podium of KQ. The fallout would be unknown until after the race. If reputation holds up, and a KQ spot is earned, then the risk was definitely worth it, in some eyes.
And, this prob could fire my old thread back up.
But, in regards to the IMChatt race, I wasn't there. I only have FB pics, comments, and other athlete's accounts. Sounds as if there wasn't a big effort to keep the distance. That, if true, makes my topic and this thread somewhat different.
OK, I have a scenario that seemed reasonable at the time and still feel was acceptable from a personal integrity point of view, but I really don't know if it was a legal activity or not.
IMLP 2013 - the year of the 5 flats. In short, I double flatted on the decent to Keene on the first loop then had 3 more flats on my front wheel before I found the cut in my tire. Neutral support that supplied several tubes did not have a replacement tire so I applied a boot to it. He suggested I stop at Transition and ask for Bike Tech for a tire. Along the way, when I saw the other support vehicle with extra wheels I tried to flag him down but since I was on my bike and riding, they seemed not to notice my plea.
Get to Transition and go part way up the ramp into T2 but stayed away from the timing mat, and called out for assistance. Bike Tech was not there so no replacement for the cut tire. No way could I run the decent to Keene at speeds approaching 40+ mph on a tire with a hernia. My condo was on the bike course a mile from Transition so I headed there. I figured if I was DQed for leaving the course that would be OK because without a replacement tire I would have to quit anyway.
I left the course and returned to the course in the same location, meaning I did not advance while off-course. At the condo, I did not allow Carole to assist as I knew I could not take any outside assistance. I got my spare tire, changed it and put my tools away before resuming my second loop.
After the race I looked for rule violations but other than the 2 items below I did not find anything else that may apply:
From USAT Rulebook:
d. Unauthorized Assistance. No participant shall accept from any person (other than a race official) physical assistance in any form, including food, drink, equipment, support, pacing, a replacement bicycle or bicycle parts, unless an express exception has been granted and approved, in writing, by USA Triathlon. The receipt of information regarding the progress, split times, or location of other competitors on the race course shall not be considered the acceptance of unauthorized assistance. Any violation of this Section shall result in a variable time penalty.
e. Re-entry. Upon leaving the course, a participant shall re-enter the course and continue at the same point of departure. Any violation of this Section shall result in a variable time penalty, unless the Head Referee in his sole discretion determines that (i) the violation was substantial and resulted in an unfair time advantage, or (ii) the violation constituted endangerment under Section 3.4(l), in which case the penalty shall be disqualification.
So Team, was it OK for me to leave the course to go into my condo, get a spare tire and then continue?
d. Unauthorized Assistance. No participant shall accept from any person (other than a race official) physical assistance in any form, including food, drink, equipment, support, pacing, a replacement bicycle or bicycle parts, unless an express exception has been granted and approved, in writing, by USA Triathlon. The receipt of information regarding the progress, split times, or location of other competitors on the race course shall not be considered the acceptance of unauthorized assistance. Any violation of this Section shall result in a variable time penalty.
@Steve, remember when Krissy Wellington got handed (or thrown) a co2 cartridge from another pro? No one said she was wrong to use it, and she won the whole thing. You were totally legit.
My wife has been giving me time splits on the run for years, her favorite is looking at her watch with that look on her face that says the 8pm dinner reservations ain't gonna happen at this current pace...ha
So if we read a race report and feel like a rule has been violated it's worth posting a question about that. People on both sides can learn from doing that. I bet most of the time the athlete who's wife hands him an Advil on the run course doesn't realize he's breaking a rule. Or be like Darren here and hold some pent up resentment based on lack of understanding of the rules based on events that that happens in July 2013.
Darren, I couldn't disagree more with your perception on EN.
Comments
Nate, agreed. No hard feelings here. I think along similar lines with what you went thru with the bib, I'm simply trying to get across the point of how easy it is to get off track. Having a place to toss ideas around is huge in many regards, from training ideas and racing strategies to keeping others accountable for their actions. When left alone, we can usually talk ourselves into any angle that we want. With friends/cohorts/peers watching and listening, it's a little bit harder to lie to self with rationalization and justification.
And, from my end, that was very, very appreciated. To use your words...glad I asked.
It can be done cleanly. There were three brothers that raced IMNY that finished 1, 2, 4 in the M30-34 AG. By all accounts they rode cleanly despite riding "with each other" for 112 miles.
Put 3 EN jerseys in a row, even 12 meters apart, and let's start putting out the flames!
No way anyone buys that we stayed legit.
As I mentioned, it MAY be worth the risk if the athlete and friends have a shot at podium of KQ. The fallout would be unknown until after the race. If reputation holds up, and a KQ spot is earned, then the risk was definitely worth it, in some eyes.
And, this prob could fire my old thread back up.
But, in regards to the IMChatt race, I wasn't there. I only have FB pics, comments, and other athlete's accounts. Sounds as if there wasn't a big effort to keep the distance. That, if true, makes my topic and this thread somewhat different.
I'm getting back to my training!
IMLP 2013 - the year of the 5 flats. In short, I double flatted on the decent to Keene on the first loop then had 3 more flats on my front wheel before I found the cut in my tire. Neutral support that supplied several tubes did not have a replacement tire so I applied a boot to it. He suggested I stop at Transition and ask for Bike Tech for a tire. Along the way, when I saw the other support vehicle with extra wheels I tried to flag him down but since I was on my bike and riding, they seemed not to notice my plea.
Get to Transition and go part way up the ramp into T2 but stayed away from the timing mat, and called out for assistance. Bike Tech was not there so no replacement for the cut tire. No way could I run the decent to Keene at speeds approaching 40+ mph on a tire with a hernia. My condo was on the bike course a mile from Transition so I headed there. I figured if I was DQed for leaving the course that would be OK because without a replacement tire I would have to quit anyway.
I left the course and returned to the course in the same location, meaning I did not advance while off-course. At the condo, I did not allow Carole to assist as I knew I could not take any outside assistance. I got my spare tire, changed it and put my tools away before resuming my second loop.
After the race I looked for rule violations but other than the 2 items below I did not find anything else that may apply:
From USAT Rulebook:
d. Unauthorized Assistance. No participant shall accept from any person (other than a race official) physical assistance in any form, including food, drink, equipment, support, pacing, a replacement bicycle or bicycle parts, unless an express exception has been granted and approved, in writing, by USA Triathlon. The receipt of information regarding the progress, split times, or location of other competitors on the race course shall not be considered the acceptance of unauthorized assistance. Any violation of this Section shall result in a variable time penalty.
e. Re-entry. Upon leaving the course, a participant shall re-enter the course and continue at the same point of departure. Any violation of this Section shall result in a variable time penalty, unless the Head Referee in his sole discretion determines that (i) the violation was substantial and resulted in an unfair time advantage, or (ii) the violation constituted endangerment under Section 3.4(l), in which case the penalty shall be disqualification.
So Team, was it OK for me to leave the course to go into my condo, get a spare tire and then continue?
Hi Darren
USAT rules are here
See bold below, from section 3.4D, Race Conduct:
d. Unauthorized Assistance. No participant shall accept from any person (other than a race official) physical assistance in any form, including food, drink, equipment, support, pacing, a replacement bicycle or bicycle parts, unless an express exception has been granted and approved, in writing, by USA Triathlon. The receipt of information regarding the progress, split times, or location of other competitors on the race course shall not be considered the acceptance of unauthorized assistance. Any violation of this Section shall result in a variable time penalty.
My apologies Rich, I've read the rules numerous times over the last couple of years and very likely miss interpreted that sentence. I stand corrected.
So if we read a race report and feel like a rule has been violated it's worth posting a question about that. People on both sides can learn from doing that. I bet most of the time the athlete who's wife hands him an Advil on the run course doesn't realize he's breaking a rule. Or be like Darren here and hold some pent up resentment based on lack of understanding of the rules based on events that that happens in July 2013.
Darren, I couldn't disagree more with your perception on EN.