FOP AG and Plateau'ed shake up
This thread discussion was titled FOP but is for anyone who has been at this for a while (years) , believe they are plateau'ed , looking to shake things up , keep it interesting/fun , and hopefully make that next step up or break through in the process !
The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
Background- 6yrs triathlon , 5yrs w/EN , 4 - OS cycles.... 1st OS netted HUGE gains in FTP/Vdot ... 2nd OS netted small gains in FTP/Vdot....3rd OS netted tiny gains in FTP/Vdot ..... 4th OS Zero gains same peak numbers as prior year in FTP/Vdot and swim threshold....
Make no mistake the EN OS is where you earn biggest gains and ROI period ! Even though I had plateau'ed last year I fully believe the OS was still a huge part of the successful year I was lucky enough to have... During my 3rd/4th season I determined my limiter to be V02 work and really focussed on that during last years OS.... The net result of that work and the consistency of completing 4 OS's , gave me the ability to hold that same FTP/Vdot steady through out the race year 2014 (usually your FTP/Vdot drops a little during the season)... I was also able to set some training personal best's in all 3 disciplines mid season in July ... While these were not official tests they were on known courses with known numbers and I consider them to be break through's ....
General Plan- In the interest of not going insane, keeping this interesting and fun, here is what I have decided to do .... Skip the OS.... Instead do a couple rather large blocks of Single Sport focus ....I have been wanting to do a Run Focus for 3 years now... I first talked to Coach P about doing a run focus with the goal of a KQing... His advice and guidance was to wait on doing the run focus ... He said we need to get you off the bike in the top 10 first then we can work your run....This proved to be spot on and I continued working on the bike....I feel I am ready for the Run focus now.....1st will be a 15 week Run focus.... 2nd will be a 10 week Bike focus... Signed up for 2 Ultra Run Races... Never done an Ultra... The 1st is a 50k in Feb and the 2nd is a 50 miler in March....
Run Focus Specifics - 15 weeks....Run 5 days a week tues,weds,thurs,sat,sun with a hacked Ultra plan from the EN wiki and the book Relentless Forward progress (both those plans are very similar)... Almost all of the running will be Z1-Z2 , minimal 20-30minutes of speed work per week, lots of trail running (the ultra's are on trails) , starting mileage in the mid 30mpw and peak mileage around 70mpw.... Last year I averaged 30mpw with 3 weeks @ 50mpw.... I will continue to swim/bike easy on mon and fri (days with no run) with other easy sessions on weds or sun the shortest run days.... Goal is to work on run efficiency , durability , maintain a floor for my bike and swim .... 2/14 will be the Pembertontrail 50k http://pembertontrail50k.blogspot.com/ .... The Pemberton 50k will be my longest run and RR for the Old Pueblo 50 miler on 3/7 http://www.oldpueblo50.com/
Bike Focus Specifics - 10 weeks....Bike 5 days a week... essentially just flipping the run focus plan... bike tues,weds,thurs , sat , sun.... run/swim easy on mon and fri with a couple other sessions on the short bike days.... Goal will be to get lots of bike volume , will add as much Z4-Z5 intensity as I think I can handle trying to regain prior years FTP and just maintain the run legs and swim muscles with easy sessions...
A - IM Race schedule for the remainder of 2015 IMLP , KONA , IMAZ
IMLP- 10 week advanced IM plan - this should be enough time to get rebalanced in all 3 disciplines with the appropriate amount of speed work and volume, then spend 3-4 weeks in race specific mode before having to taper....
KONA- 11 weeks similar to IMLP but with a couple week recovery to start
IMAZ- 5 weeks - 1 week easy , 2 weeks race specific but lower than normal volume , 2 weeks taper
Questions.
1. How much biking and at what intensity is required to maintain a medium level of bike fitness during the run focus? During all 4 OS's I have pretty much peaked FTP after 6 weeks so that is the planned amount of time to regain FTP during the bike focus.
2. How much running and at what intensity is required to maintain a medium level of run fitness during the bike focus? I believe we can bounce back from no or minimal biking much faster than no or minimal running do to the fact that biking is more muscular and running is more tendons , joints etc... So with that thought I believe it to be more important to keep running during the bike focus?
Question, comments , thoughts, suggestions from any and all are welcome... As well as further discussion here or in other threads from those that maybe contemplating some of the same thoughts I had....
Comments
I'll dwell on your Qs during my run and post tonight.
Posted this over on DT's thread, so I put it here for reference:
I definitely agree that if you feel you've stagnated in progress its time to shake up the routine, and it seems logical that focus blocks could be a mechanism for that.
Another perspective on the stagnation / progress dichotomy is to change how you measure what progress is. We work under the assumption that FTP and VDOT are THE critical measures of progress, but everyone recognizes at some point these measures max out due to physiology and age among other things. As you both have experienced the slow down in gains in these measures, it seems that progress might now be measured in optimizing how you race. Beginners are taught to race at 65-70% FTP, sharp enders @ 73-75%, and the pros seem to go 80-85% even at the IM. Similar scales exist for metered effort on the IM run. I'd tend to think of progress at your level as developing your ability to ride 80+% for 4.5-5 hours and still hit the run at top end z2+. Your FTPs and VDOTs may increase some, but its more likely that you can more easily develop hard-core endurance pacing more akin to what would be standard in standalone events. That will take huge amounts of work in the z3 range for both disciplines and would I think require careful design of focus blocks to balance recovery with the work. Just my $.02
1. How much biking and at what intensity is required to maintain a medium level of bike fitness during the run focus? During all 4 OS's I have pretty much peaked FTP after 6 weeks so that is the planned amount of time to regain FTP during the bike focus.
I suspect it depends by individual. In my own experience -- I was off the bike 100% for 18 weeks June through October 2013 then 2x/week biking until I got fell on the ice in early Jan and was injured and on the shelf with zero exercise, period for essentially 12 weeks. I came back to full FTP in under 8 weeks and set a half-iron bike PR in early June.
2. How much running and at what intensity is required to maintain a medium level of run fitness during the bike focus? I believe we can bounce back from no or minimal biking much faster than no or minimal running do to the fact that biking is more muscular and running is more tendons , joints etc... So with that thought I believe it to be more important to keep running during the bike focus?
I would keep up your frequency but not volume or intensity in order to keep your body in running shape and thereby facilitate your ramping up mileage quickly after the bike focus without significant injury risk. If you really lay off running I think the injury risk is elevated and probably amplified by what will likely be your desire to ramp up quickly. How much running is that? Maybe 3x/wk for 30min each run.
One other thought...your post indicates rather low mileage overall (30mpw with 3 weeks at 50). You need to be prepared to listen to your body and modify the plan if you can't handle 70 mpw. At your age the injury risk starts getting higher. Although you are super-light so that makes a difference.
Just my $0.02..........
Reading the other responses, I would second Rian's that race day execution - where you already shine - is ALWAYS an opportunity for improvement on any given day. Especially on the run, once you up your game there.
I would agree with Matt regarding keeping up running frequency. Decrease intensity and volume, but frequency is so important to prevent injuries when you ramp up the intensity and the volume again.
Tim,
This sounds fun. Wish I had the time, motor, SSS (spousal support system) and desire to do the same. I assume part of this adventure is merely to mix things up and do something a bit different, but that the ultimate driver here is to take a step forward and (1) win your AG at an IM and (2) compete at the front end of your AG in Kona? I'll never take the journey to the pointy end of the IM world, but I got to watch a friend go from runner to top IM pro in a couple of years. He came into triathlon as a 2:30 open marathoner. Good start. Could swim sub-65, so good enough. But he couldn't bike. So, his coaches (Reid, then Riccitello) had him bike. A lot. Like 500 miles/week. He went from a 5:15 guy to a 4:45 guy. Coupled with his 60 swim and 2:50-55 IM run, he netted ten top-10s in a 5-year career, lost $ in the process, went back to his day job. The key up front was evaluating his natural engine size, then making sure his S, B & R matched up with that motor. His bike stood out as not matching the motor, so that's where the work went. There are some top pros today with similar imbalances. Pete Jacobs is a natural swimmer who allegedly only swims 10k/week, spends all his time on the B & R. Lindsey Corbin is a great runner who allegedly only runs 20-30 miles/wk, so she rides. Looking at you and your body type, you're already at the front end of the bike tri world and are probably getting 95% out of your motor. Going from 5:00 to 4:45 at 120lbs will probably take an enormous number of miles. Likewise, without being 6'0", it'll take a boatload of yards to move you from low 60s to mid-50s in the swim - not worth the low ROI. The run is your big opportunity. Given your big engine and smaller frame, I don't see why you couldn't and shouldn't be a 3:00 open marathoner with a 3:15 IM run in you. That would put you sub-9:30 and firmly at the top of your AG anywhere you race. Getting there will definitely involve lots of running, but exactly what those miles look like is for those far smarter than me. Regardless, looking forward to watching you tackle this new challenge.
Mike
Given your early season 50k plans, the run is good...I would humbly suggest the weekend double runs and as for during the week, one easy session with some strides, one FTP type run (2x1 is fine) and one run on rolling terrain to let the hills do some work for you. Then I'd bike 2 x week with the "work" coming in Z3 points. Maybe one or two 8' efforts at FTP in one session but not too much.
As for the run on the bike, I agree with Al. I'd look at 4 x big weekends vs 10 weeks of solid running. If weeks 3, 6, 8 and 10 were big weeks of cycling with minimal running, then on the other weeks you can spike up the run work a bit so as to keep that fresh....curious on your thoughts!
@Rian - I completely agree with training to race at a higher percentage of FTP. My best performances to date have been IM bike at IF .75-.76. based on my estimated FTP... I'll go one further, and this is how I judge my performance since FTP is simply an estimate anyway (no-one does 60min FTP and if you do you certainly dont do one before your IM)... I judge my TRUE bike performance on w/kg for the IM bike split PERIOD.... IMO this is DATA that cannot be debated.... Your watts for the IM bike split and your weight on race day are FACTS not estimates or unknowns.... Having said that my best bike perfomances have been at 3.25 w/kg for 5hrs.... BTW agree that all this applies to the RUN and hence the RUN focus and hopefully the improvement forward.
@Matt- Very re-assuring to see the amount of time off the bike, minimal bike, then more time off and see you bounce back stronger than ever... Definitely validates my plans and it wont scare me as much to bike so little... Of course I wont have all your downtime ...Its funny one persons perception of low mileage vs another.... I'm thinking 30+ miles per week average for almost a year as being high but I guess in the scheme of 60-70mpw its NOT.... However those weeks I hit 50mpw also had intensity and lots of bike... During those weeks my Saturday was 5.5hr bike 120miles w/7 mile brick , Sunday AM 16 mile run, PM 7 mile run (30 miles in 2 days after a brutal bike)... Having done that 2 weeks in a row for my peak weeks prior to IMCHOO I started to realized I could handle more miles specially if I back off the bike and intensities !
@ Al - Do you really think I underperform the RUN? with a of vdot 51 and my best IM runs of 3:33 , 3:40 , 3:45 ? Or are you thinking along the lines of Rian and just I should be operating at a higher percentage of my threshold for the IM run specially with my body type? I covered lots of short racing last year as mentioned about , and funny that I consider a HIM "short" in the sense I feel like I'm operating at threshold for those (only Zone 3 but RPE from start to finish)... Going to go over the amount of intensity in Coach P's comments but in general I will be doing less is more as a maintenance theme..... Yes to racing KONA but I will also race IMLP/IMAZ just cant help it. YES to Colorado , will talk about time frame etc but I think it can work this year.
@ Mike- You got it. I wanna win an IM (three 2nd place finishes and one 3rd) .... I want 1st place...... its not a matter of if but when.... I try every race (except KONA)... just depends on who shows up !
@Paul- I never claimed to be smart... Signing up for multiple IM's and Ultra's certainly proves that... However I do have a healthy dose of common sense and I believe that to be more important to ALL success over intelligence.... I will pay close attention to how I feel and injury... Remember I DNF'ed a simple HM last year at mile 2 just cause I didnt like the way my right quad was feeling!
@ Coach P - I really believe this is answer C. all the above...Its not an either or.... IOW goat to enhance performance, do cool shit, with eye on longterm improvement....You have guided me well ..... I like your suggestions for amount of intensity on the bike during the run focus (mostly Z3 with short Z4-5 intervals) If I just ride 2-3 hrs per week that will happen.... I also agree with the 10 week bike focus as too much... After suggesting to Dave to do 4 week blocks I realized this... Will re-think that last 10 week block and probably do something like 1 week recovery easy after run focus, 6 week bike focus , 1 week swim focus , 2 weeks BTW's back to back.... this will be followed up with a full recovery week of travel back to NH from AZ...
Wow!! This is an unbelievable thread. I thought I had learned something about IM training, but now I know I am still a grasshopper compared to this group. Thank you everyone for sharing.
Tim...my only addition is to make sure you get plenty of rest between workouts and between the training blocks you have outlined. I know this is obvious, but some times it is easy to overlook. An over use injury will derail all your plans.
My Bday is 1 week before Patrick's and I will be aging up to 50. So i will be doing my own 50k fun run on my 50th to raise $ for team Ironhearts.
To get there I will be doing 2x long runs per week (Tues & Sat) and 2-3 shorter runs per week, with two of them having at least 1 (1mile) interval at Z4. I will also be doing 2 bikes a week of Z3 and one bike a week of 2x8 - 2x12 at FTP, thought there is an admission that I may not hit FTP in these sessions. Given my shizzy swim speed and how the work started to show up from my new focus on it after IMMT, I will do 2 swim sessions per week of 3000-5000 yards, Length depends on the days I have my kids.
This puts me in Early March transitioning from the run block to a bike block next. I will be doing the TOC camp with Rich, so i will have roughly six weeks to pile on some FTP work and bike volume for that camp and will be looking for that camp to jump me to a new level....
at this point i would expect to flip to the IM training plan for my prep work for IMLP which will have me at 9 weeks ahead of LP
Great thread! A couple quick notes:
I did a long single sport cycling block in '10 training for Everest Challenge. Notes:
Coming back from a long running layoff: I'm working myself through this now and have a great success in the last week with introducing informal strides to all of my runs. These have been a great tool in relearning how to run efficiently. Like, my paces have dropped 15-20" per miles after only doing 3-4x strides sessions. My point is that I feel Al's running guidance during your cycling block is too much and will take away from the purpose of the block. If it were me, I'd do 3x 30-35' runs per week, as warmup, "rolling strides," done. IMO, you want to maintain your running coordination and durability by maintaining the 3x runs per week frequency and the neuromuscular coordination of running fast/quickly with good form.
*Rolling Strides: I just hit the lap button mid run and do 30" of high cadence, quick, excellent form running, counting out about 47 left footstrikes = 94rpm. Then I run very easy for about 30-40", or until I'm ready to go again. Just do ^this^ for as much of the run as you feel like. As a bonus, Riley is starting to associate the beep with a change in pace, pretty funny.
My point is that ^this^ will help you maintain most your durability and more importantly your running fast coordination in a manner that allows you to leverage all of the cycling gains you can.
First was that during my big run block, I lost very little in the way of the bike. My go to bike workouts were 2x8' or 2x10' at FTP and I did them just 1-2 times a week. I was off my bike in ~45 mins, but was still a good way to "maintain". There's something about "mentally" still hitting that FTP number, even if it's for a short time to keep you from losing ground and this doesn't crush your legs or your adrenals like a normal OS does. I also really liked the block of 30 days of consecutive running. Really helped to build durability. During IM training (but you could add it into your big run block) I found a great workout to be my "normal" long run in the morning (for me got as high as ~18-19 miles), then I followed it with a 3-5 mile "easy" run that evening. This 2nd run after the long run really sucked, but after a few miles it was nice to feel your legs open up again. I called this my "leg hardener" run. Given that you're doing your "ultra", I really think you'll need some "long runs" on back to back days. This is a different kind of durable that you'll need. This type of training won't necessarily make you "faster" though. You'll have to add a "get faster" run block after you recover from your ultra to really build on your new run fitness with extra speed.
For your bike block... I know when we talked before you said you didn't do well with back-to-back long rides... Get over it an do them anyways. This was one of the things that I think helped me the most last yr and I know it would help you also. You have the time, so do a 5-5.5 ride one day and follow it up with a 4-4.5 the next. Lather, rinse, repeat. I tried to set a "new" 5hr power record on every 5 hour ride. I also tried to set a new "2nd day" 4 hr power record every time as well. I found that no matter what I did, my 2nd day was almost always ~20W lower than the first day. I really believe a lot of my bike fitness was built during the mentally hard last hour of that 2nd day's ride. I also agree with Coach Rich that 2-3 monster volume 2-4 day bike camps will also do wonders.
Both of the things I mentioned above will help your running, and your biking, as they really interplay together. If you can get that VDot up another 1-2 points, there's no reason you shouldn't be running a 3:15 IM marathon with the proper training/fitness. Read that again. I really mean it. Recalibrate your brain that a 3:30-3:40 IM marathon is just not good enough anymore. Put that 3:15 number out there into the ether and then go get it. That's a 7:27 pace. My opinion is that you don't run another mile (other than your warm-up mile) below that pace all of next yr. Probably not what Coach P will prescribe and he's probably forgotten more about running than I will ever know... But he's also super-conservative and I'm not... I just think that you should recalibrate your whole way of thinking about the run and just tell yourself that you have a 3:15 IM marathon in you, then go and get it. Seriously.
I know this is next part will be hard to type, so it might be hard for you to accept, but here goes... I think the last yr or so you have been on cruise control. I don't mean that as a complete negative... 99% of the people inside EN or the triathlon world for that matter, wish they could be on cruise control and hover right there at 2nd in your AG in every IM you enter. But you sound like you're not happy just being better than 99% of us mere mortal triathletes. The bad news is to make it from the 99th percentile to the 99.5th percentile will likely be as hard as it was when you went from the 90th percentile to the 99th percentile. Which means as you astutely pointed out, changing things up a little. But it will also mean a lot more run volume. AND a lot more bike volume. And taking what you think the edge of your comfort zone (or un-comfort zone) is and redefining it. Look at your training log from last yr. What was your longest/hardest ride of the yr? Well do that on back to back days this yr. When I was out there, you mentioned the Double-Lemmon... How many times have you actually done it? If I lived where you did and had the goals you have (and had a supportive wife and no kids...), I'd do the Double-Lemmon on back to back days, once every other week. No, I'm not kidding... Put that new road bike to good use. I can't wait to see those Strava files!!!
Finally, I'll add something that you will not be in favor of, but I'm going to say it anyways. You might want to try some supplementation. Particularly Adrenal Supports, Omega 3's (high quality ones), L-Glutamine, Magnesium, and B-Complex (assuming you're still not eating meat). I can give you dozens and dozens of other supplements and recovery Bio-hacks. Let's be honest, what you are going to ask your body to do is "not natural". You might want to give it just a little extra "help" to aid in recovery and to limit muscle breakdown and body inflammation. Happy to discuss further if you want, or not say any more on the topic if you'd prefer to be locked into your current way of doing things... (remember that definition of insanity)
Good Luck and definitely keep us all posted. It's gonna be fun to watch.
Tim - I was focusing on your *relative* performance in your AG in qualifying races. You know this already, but… IM FL: 2nd OA by 3 min, Fastest Bike, 7 minutes slower than first place's run; IM TX: 3rd Pl, 2nd fastest bike, sixth fastest run; IM Chatt: 2nd OA, 4 min out of 1st, with 6 min slower run, Fastest bike, 7th fastest run.
The next step is to grab your AG win, and that's gonna take … a faster run. Whether it's underperforming relative to body type, or engine as exemplified by bike performance, or race day chops (doubtful), it doesn;t matter. You gotta get five minutes faster on the run by whatever means necessary.
+ Trying to win your AG is different than showing up with your best possible fitness and "just" racing. I have never done the former but always strive for the latter. My sense is the former would be not that different than chasing Withrow's "precious" and could lead you down a wrong road.
+ Finding the right course is critical. I was top 5 at LP, but on a flat course (thanks Coach Rich!) I lit it up. Not to say there weren't other circumstances, but my point is you could already be a "first placer" on another course. Plus it might not be a fitness thing, it could be a nutrition thing for all we know (i.e., your run or bike nutrition might have room to improve?).
+ I believe most AGs can't ride at .75 and then run a #1 marathon. My point...you still need more bike fitness. Would love to have you put in a top bike split at .72 (make your .75 now a .72, for example) and the window opens for your run. Again, that's from my racing experience. Best runs after "smartest bikes".
As for other feedback, I want to step back and appreciate the streak you have put together (thanks Al!). You are quickly becoming the Cal Ripken of Endurance Nation...that's some consistency and I know that's not easy. Moving forward is all about keeping things interesting, yet effective. As Matt A noted above, most FOP won't "lose" too much fitness (or have it more than 6 weeks away) if they focus on something else athletic. So I wouldn't worry about losing, given your strategy.
Finally, I encourage you to find your biggest "lever" and work that. For me it's my body composition. As a skinny meateater who usually races at 185, getting my race weight down to 178 for IMTX gave me super powers. You don't have that luxury given how skinny you are, but there must be some kind of lever you can focus on...my one fear of your plan right now is it's about making bike and run faster (but maybe I am looking too big picture).
Really interested to keep following the discussion.
@Coach Rich-- I will definitely incorporate the rolling strides into my run focus and bike focus as a way to maintain my fast running co-ordination/muscles.... Since I don't normally do as many strides as I should this fits into my theory of doing things differently this year.... Bike Block--- I would agree that 5x per week is too much but that depends on intensity and that is why I normally only ride 3 times per week (1 FTP , 1 v02 , 1 long ABPish).... IN the theme of doing things differently I need to do more riding with less intensity so that I may absorb that in a Different manner than in the past..... The general layout in mind would be tues-FTP , weds - easy recovery , thurs vo2 , sat and sun long 3-5hrs each real easy IF .70ish kinda like when we were riding the Beeline :-) ..... I like your idea of some mega weekends and when I do those will lighten up the mid-week work.
@Al... Thanks for the tough love... So what your saying is I just gotta run faster? Of course I'm looking for 5-6 minutes off the marathon but that total time is so relative to the day, course, competition , that I will never really know what that time is pre-race.... BTW my best relative IM run performance was a 2nd fastest run in AG with a 4hr marathon @ IMTX (yep it was hot).... I certainly don't think this run block or those Ultra's will give me more raw speed in the form of a higher vdot but maybe thru the accumulated miles the efficiency, durability, endurance will improve to allow an even faster IM run with the same VDOT... I will of course work my vdot and speed prior to racing next year, but after busting my butt last year with tons of speedwork and 5k races and no improvement in that vdot I needed something different ...
@Coach P... Trying to Win and finding the right course is on my radar... I have yet to perform well in AG on a hilly course like IMMT , have done very well on all the flat courses IMTX, IMFL , IMCHOO..... this year IMLP and IMAZ should sort that out as to which I am better on.... Doesnt make sense I can outperform on the flat but I cant complain about the results.... MORE bike fitness is needed... OK OK OK damn you been right about that from the beginning.... Here is the way I am thinking about it and trying to accomplish your make your now .75 your .72 comment... The last 2 years of stagnated FTP numbers I have worked on completing my longrides at the highest possible NP(classic EN RPP) and then executing raceday below that number... IOW my best longrides and race rehearsals have come in at .80ish 179-181NP watts and TSS 310-330 , then I race at .75ish or 174-176NP watts TSS 290ish.... My goal will be to improve that longride 5hr power by 5 watts and then execute the same .... The bike block miles should accomplish this and get me off the bike fresher! Specially if I can get another tiny FTP bump along the way.... I get your Lever comment but was confused as to what your biggest fear is of my plan? could you elaborate on that? Were you thinking SWIM ? I have room there too specially a NO wetsuit race... But going ROI on the RUN/BIKE blocks first....
@JW man that response deserves its own answer... I'll get to that :-)
+ I believe most AGs can't ride at .75 and then run a #1 marathon. My point...you still need more bike fitness. Would love to have you put in a top bike split at .72 (make your .75 now a .72, for example) and the window opens for your run. Again, that's from my racing experience. Best runs after "smartest bikes".
So I'm wondering if for the races you came in 2nd if you had dialed down the bike IF would the overall net given you the extra time needed to win because of a better run. So same fitness just different execution strategy.
I agree with your back to back longruns , back to back longrides.... That will be a large part of the Run block and Bike Block ... And fits into my theory of doing things different... BTW I'm looking for a partner to do the Double Lemmon on back to back days (we could knock out the Everest Challenge)... I also agree with your faster run pace theory , this is one I have practiced in the past during the IM build by doing my longrun at 7:40 pace vs my EP of 8:25.... I have found that I need to be careful with that finding the balancing act of recovery ... I'm not one to set limits on myself but I am a realist.... A 3:15 Marathon ??? What are you taking besides too many supplements ??? My best open Marathon is 3:25 and IM Marathon of 3:33 ??? I might be able to will myself to a faster run but ???
OK.. I really appreciate the Tough Love... But Cruise Control ??? Man you really know how to hurt a guy.... If you look at any of my RACE pictures I look as bad as you ! YES thats a compliment... Better yet I urge you to look at my results on athlinks.com .... I never go into a RACE without the intention of Winning and I Train the same way... (KONA excluded but we gonna RACE this year)....I'm about as type A , obsessed, addicted personality as they come so I gotta disagree with Cruise Control ! I do agree with your FOP mentality of more is more .... More is more until it isn't .... I once spoke to David Tillbury in KONA (Dr. Skiba's partner) and he was suggesting some crazy things for me like huge bricks etc... I said that doesnt line up with what is recommended in Dr. Skiba's books.... He stopped and looked at me and said your in the FOP and you need train like your in the FOP... A little light bulb went on....Again its a balancing act of how much one can handle and recover from... Which brings me back to these blocks and shaking things up.
Supplements - As you know I'm plant-based... I've been tested for vitamin/mineral deficiencies and only tested low on IRON (this was actually before going VEGAN) most athletes are low on IRON... I supplement with a one a day vitamin (believe to be an insurance policy and unecessary) and IRON/B12... That it... Like to be as natural and unprocessed as possible with the exception of processed training/racing foods.... You do know all that stuff you take is processed right? So for the supplements we'll agree to disagree ! I do like your thoughts and theories on the subject though.
Thanks for reading and all your well thought out comments... I really appreciate it!
My point was simply that you are so close to the limits of your ability (compared to most "casual" Ironman athletes) that it will take an extraordinary effort to make marginal gains. And I did not mean my "cruise control" comment to offend you, I have too much respect for you for that. But it was a bit of tough love. And to be clear, "cruise control" by no means meant you were slacking off., you were obviously training and racing very very hard. I can have my car on cruise control at 90mph and still pass everyone else on the road with very little thought or input. But by definition, you started this thread because you were trying to shake things up to break out of your plateau... Flipping off the cruise control and do things that require more thought and inputs from the driver.
And I agree with your buddy. There's simply a higher bar for a FOPer.
If I can get to AZ this spring, I'll gladly do the back to back double Lemmon with you, but you'll have to slow down so my 185lbs can keep up with you going uphill on that rocket ship of a bike you just bought.
I also have a friend who has run the Old Pueblo 50 a couple of yr's ago... Maybe I'll even come run it with you... (Maybe)
And for the record, you absolutely have a 3:15 IM marathon in you, but you won't have a chance at it if you don't believe it yourself.
Re: the .72 vs .75 point by Coach P and Nate and others... I read that to mean that you should be able to race at 0.75 but it should have the effect on your legs as if you had ridden 0.72. I think you could accomplish this if you were able to bump your 5hr power ride up to 0.81 or 0.82 THEN do the 2nd day long ride at 0.75 or higher. If you can do a second day long ride at 0.75, then you can race a "fresh" 0.75 and it will feel like a 0.72 on race day. Does that make sense? I would be shocked if you could get your FTP much higher at this point. But raising the 5hr power number as a % of FTP will happen for you this yr, of that I am certain (and your starting point is already higher than most of us).
Thanks Tim and all for this discussion.
Yes you should be running faster! You are going to need it when I age up to you in one year.
Agree that you should be running faster based on your body type. But how to get there? (is what you are exploring).
Personally am trying the John thing - all miles at at least Ironman marathon goal pace. For your run block, I wonder if you should be getting closer to Z2. Which is a lot different than running at Z1. And, as you know, at our higher vdots, Z3 is really the same as Z4 (at least based on vdot calculator).
I have the advantage of a life of running - my 20 yo stand alone marathon time close to my current estimate. Based on my marathon potential, I have been underperforming at Irons (much of that may be honing my race governor - you have this well dialed).
Is your run speed limited somewhat by the way you are built? Is there some bowleggedness to your movement? You have considered your cadence (which I think should be high based on your size). Have you had a good gait analysis and a shoe "fit"? Do you need well made custom orthotics to get your feet/ankles/legs/knees/hips/etc in good alignment?
as an aside, I think the bike should continue to be my emphasis. I am working towards this by getting to the longer Saturday OS bikes sooner and adding more 5 hour bikes to the Iron prep and working up to 5 hour NPs that are significantly higher than race goal (as you are doing).
Have fun in Tucson. Wish I had a sunny Lemmon to climb.
Hey Tim, Some lessons I've learned from 40 years of running (last 9 yrs in triathlon): First, I'm betting you definitely have more in the running tank! With your engine I'd say a 3:25 IM marathon for sure, possibly a bit faster. I think to run 3:15 in the IM you need to be around 3:00 for the open marathon. I think it will happen by doing just what you are proposing, focusing more on the run training. When I was in my late forties I had a goal of running a sub 3 hour marathon and after a couple of close calls (I missed one race by 11 seconds) it finally happened interestingly when I was unable to do speedwork because of an injury but was able to do solid long runs, tempo work, and hill reps. The next year with the same training I ended up going faster yet. I just don't think the speedwork for someone over 50 is worth the injury risk or the fatigue factor. Al is spot on about it taking 5 or 6 years of focused training to reach potential. I also think that applies to each discipline within triathlon. Your swim and bike ability are here to stay, so focus on your run and you will run faster! For my money and in order of importance are 1) long run with last 20-25% at half marathon pace, 2) tempo work building up to about 2 x 40 min at about 15k pace, 3) hill reps (Frank Shorter says hills are speedwork in disguise). I also agree with strides at the end of all runs. Best of luck to you!! Look forward to seeing you in Kona if not before!
ps. keep us posted!
@Turby.... thanks for the runner advice I like it and it fits in my theme of doing something different !
What a great thread. I don't really have anything that I can add to this at this time but it has been fun reading and learning from the masters. I'm starting my second season with EN and this is my second NOS. If I can eek out half the improvements I made last year I'll be grateful. This year I have been struggling a little with the "Why am I doing this?" question as well. I think part of that stems from the fact that I've seemed to reach a plateau as well and can't break through it. I was going to ask Tim and Al what they did during the out season and between this post and Al's season planning post I've gotten a pretty good idea of that. For now I'll stick to the NOS since it's just my second time through and I do like the structure.
I might be setting an EN record with the latest response to your post. Sorry about that.
Some of this is a rehash of face-to-face conversations we have had in the last year, and might (or might not) be applicable to the questions you raised. My points:
-If I were to prescribe the biggest change at a strategic level, it might be to move from “train like a runner, train like a cyclist, train like a swimmer” to “train like an Ironman triathlete.” I think this is probably most applicable to the in-season, but hear me out. What I mean by this is, assuming you wanted to progress, that I would see you putting much more time in that directly mimics the specific demands of the race, and targets some of the areas where there might be untapped potential. Tangibly, in season, this would be:
-long rides weekly, with at least 10 rides of 100 miles in your legs. Somewhere around 300TSS, per ride.
-Bricks. Particularly brick runs after long rides. Although I acknowledge the generalized benefits of the “no brick” EN rule, I think you are different, and there’s a good opportunity to train you to run hard off the bike, and keep you running hard for the entire marathon. I’d have you putting yourself there frequently.
-specific bricks. Further, I would have you putting in hard running on some of these bricks: at a few points of weeks 1 – 4 of a 12-week in-season, I would have you ride 112, then to the track and running a session of 10’wu, then 4 to 5 mile repeats at HMP to TP.
-a lot of riding at “aggressive IM pace” bike effort, and “HIM pace” bike effort. Even though we eschew these in the context of highly structured EN plans, remember that they would be occurring outside of the EN plans and in a very different “train like an Ironman athlete” headspace.
-Running is building on whatever you accomplish in the OS, but I would imagine that if done correctly, you have probably maxxed out your ‘go fast’ gains for the year, and as a result, I would have you (1) substitute a HMP session for the TP session, accumulating the same TSS, and (2) putting a LOT of time in the long run at MP -> HMP. My thinking about the latter is there is room for more HMP in the EN long run as currently written for those with superior run durability and/or recovery circumstances and abilities. So, your 2h long run becomes 40’ EP, 20-30’ MP, remainder HMP. Ideally you progress to an hour of HMP in these long runs over the season.
-in-season, keep 5-6 runs per week, 3 x bike per week, 4 swim per week.
What the above points speak to – or at least the approach to bike and run – is to accumulate the high volume of work that is necessary to keep you in the top five percentile, but with extra work that targets the skill and to go closer to the redline all day. It’s building on probably the same FTP and LT you’re bringing forward in any other year, but starts to put your IF much closer to what pros are training to execute at on race day.
-the OS stuff sounds fun, and I will watch this with great interest. Truth told, I haven’t had the courage to do this with the same all-in approach you are taking, despite yearly urgings from Rich. If I were to comment on your approach, though:
-the bike block is where you leverage living in Tucson. You already have developed a good network that includes some of the fast guys who are also parked out there – I would put myself out there with them or their groups every chance I had. Or join a club, or a team that is already working on a build program that will let you drop in. In either case, I would treat this block as immersion in every sense, and particularly leverage Riding With People Who Are Faster Than You.
-ditto running. Although I don’t agree with the ultra distance goals, I think these are what you need to keep it interesting and challenging. But if these are the foundation for getting faster, I don’t think they would be as effective as consistently high weekly volumes achieved through a traditional 10k or half-marathon training plan. Then again, the ultras might spit you out at the other end with improved economy late in the IM run, so there’s that. But I think “run durability” is a fuzzy concept (Chris G used to push against its validity) that is probably something you hit once as “no longer being un-durable,” instead of build incrementally, where more work = more durability.
I really like "a lot of riding at “aggressive IM pace” bike effort, and “HIM pace” bike effort"
I also like "putting a LOT of time in the long run at MP -> HMP...So, your 2h long run becomes 40’ EP, 20-30’ MP, remainder HMP. Ideally you progress to an hour of HMP in these long runs over the season."
The two above are a recipe for serious training stress and personally those sorts of workouts are ones that work very well for me. As you know, there are a ton of folks (e.g. Skiba) who will say that sort of effort is the real danger zone where you are not going hard enough to create desired training adaptations but you are going too hard for "high volume" because you are past the inflection point of the accumulating rate for fatigue. Clearly when you are going for the last 0.1% you need an approach suited for the athlete's unique physiology...I think for some people the workouts you describe are really very effective at building serious endurance.
One quibble I have is the HMP running. Depending on your VDOT, it is too fast to do that amount of HMP running. For me, the 2-hour long run you describe would be like running 80% of a half marathon after running the first hour. I certainly agree however that substantial amounts of time at MP and finishing long 2+ hour runs with 3-5 miles at MP and some HMP is very beneficial for many people. I would also say that the "EP" should be harder than most would probably do, i.e. only about 30-45" slower than MP. So you are really running the whole time and not "jogging" as some people do for the EP. Overall if you can throw down more than a mile of TP at the end of that long run I think it was run too slow at the beginning. Which brings me to...
"I would have you ride 112, then to the track and running a session of 10’wu, then 4 to 5 mile repeats at HMP to TP"
Whoa, that is just nuts!!! One day I will try that. Just to see what happens!!