In general, I like Dave's approach. I am already intending to follow the" volume trumps intensity" route during my 10-12 weeks leading to the two IMs I'm doing this year. Over the past four years, that is the one thing I have dropped from where I was pre-2011. I used to bike commute to work 2-3 times a week, 20-30 mi round trip, as well as engage in yearly week-long bike trips and frequent 4-5 hour mountain bike escapades. In addition, my running and swimming volume fell off 2010/11/12 as I dealt with my bike accident and its (surgical) aftermath. Trying to replace that volume with intensity on the bike and swim did not achieve the desired effect in '13& '14, so I'm re-thinking things along the lines Dave outlines.
One place where I differ: I think the prime training effect in any build for a specific race comes from "one gear up". That is, training for extended periods at one "gear" faster than race pace. Meaning, for me prepping for an IM, riding at 75-80% IF on long bikes, running at MP on long runs, and swimming 6-9 minute intervals @ T pace. So I won't be doing HMP or TP intervals during bricks, or excessive HMP in long runs (just 1-2 miles at the end). I'm not worried about injury - I seem to be immune from over use injuries - but I do experience excessive fatigue and negative impact on downstream workouts when I try that kind of stuff.
We need to figure out a way to keep this conversation going. Some of us obviously value the EN space and race execution strategies, yet need help in refining the training approach for our particular needs. The risk is, someone trying out these sorts of ideas at the wrong stage of their triathlon career.
Some of us obviously value the EN space and race execution strategies, yet need help in refining the training approach for our particular needs. The risk is, someone trying out these sorts of ideas at the wrong stage of their triathlon career.
Bingo! The EN style workouts generally don't work for me anymore. Let me stress the "FOR ME" part of that comment again. It worked wonders for me for a few years... until it didn't. My performance stagnated and I don't think there was enough easy (recovery) in the plans FOR ME and I drilled myself into a hole last year. That's why I'm gravitating towards the polarized concept this year. Eliminating the sweet spot "dead zone" as some people like to call it. Which is where much of the EN workouts call home.
I'm at the stage of my tri career that I need to shake things up. It's time FOR ME to do that. Someone newer to the game and still making tremendous gains and results should stick to the EN plan. It's a great method with thousands of success stories proving it works (me included).
I think a lot of us have a sort of moral dilemma advocating something different from the EN way within these forums. I guess it can be interpreted as undercutting Rich and Patrick's work. Not saying they feel that way as I think they like to foster opinions and thoughts outside their box, but I think we sometimes feel that way. I started a polarized training topic a couple of months back and I think Al was the only person who responded. Yet there are threads on ST that go on for months and have hundreds of replies discussing the concept and its applicability.
Matt - my thinking behind the bike work for Tim is based on a few different things:
1. I think one of his competitive strengths is as a 'diesel engine' on the bike - he has an ability to sustain a low VI (and RPE if I remember right) and I would exploit that to see just how high that could go before it starts to burn matches later on;
2. As Tim is north of 50, and I would suspect that his FTP, his ceiling, and his roof are probably at their max unless there is some kind of serious cycling intervention in the OS. And, it turns out that's exactly what he has in mind in his tweaked OS, but I think following his cycling block, there's isn't going to be any room to grow those metrics, and the remaining gains are going to be found in going at a higher effort, long. The danger zone point is acknowledged, but I think the higher IM gear is the only adaptation that remains following the single sport block.
Also, you're probably right for the HMP running for guys with pure run speed like yours. In fact, I think this came up in Stefan's thread last year. As applied to you, I think you're spot on about a very strong finish to whatever the long run is. And by strong, I *definitely* mean at leas the last 2 miles at HMP, at 100% perfect pace, with perfect form, counting strides. In Tim's case, I want to see him negative split with no pace attrition in the last 8, and suggest the above to drill that, week after week.
Finally, the killer mile repeats brick is a Rinny workout that she does with Craig Alexander at about 9 weeks out from their A races. Now ... it's a massively bad idea to try to copy the run workouts that two of the best runners in the sport are doing, but I'm seeing it from getting at the intent only: she follows this to train running fast off the bike, and then to keep running fast, after running fast off the bike. I've included this at about 5 or 4 weeks out in my last two builds (mainly because I just didn't have the fitness to do it any sooner in the season) and it was fookin' tough. Doable, but tough.
We need to figure out a way to keep this conversation going. Some of us obviously value the EN space and race execution strategies, yet need help in refining the training approach for our particular needs. The risk is, someone trying out these sorts of ideas at the wrong stage of their triathlon career.
Al - I strongly agree. A few ideas to ask for you / others to build on:
-Minimally, keep throwing things into this thread. Although it's about Tim, there are enough generalizable messages and insights to take away for all of us, or
-We ask Pat and Rich to create a new section, or revive the proposed EN Black Ops initiatives from a few years ago; or
-We move your suggestion to a dedicated discussion of "let's figure out a way to keep this conversation going" to the WSM forum, or
-We ask Pat and Rich to set up a teleconference / group thing / e brainstorm with WSM (or Interested Smart Members) and generate some ideas, or
-We nominate a EN High Performance Guru. Following our brief chat on the topic in October, I have a shortlist.
I think a lot of us have a sort of moral dilemma advocating something different from the EN way within these forums. I guess it can be interpreted as undercutting Rich and Patrick's work. Not saying they feel that way as I think they like to foster opinions and thoughts outside their box, but I think we sometimes feel that way. I started a polarized training topic a couple of months back and I think Al was the only person who responded. Yet there are threads on ST that go on for months and have hundreds of replies discussing the concept and its applicability.
Bob ... great point and I've often felt that way. However, any guilt I've had has been ameliorated when I recall that Pat and Rich have also made posts that talk about their own training personalizations. In any of the cases - yours as above, the <g class="gr_ gr_427 gr-alert gr_gramm Punctuation only-del replaceWithoutSep" id="427" data-gr-id="427">coaches',</g> or others - I think they have been presented with a healthy enough caveat to say why it's different and acceptable in their cases. Patrick's thread title (loosely recalled) of "If EN is about high ROI, why are my coaches training 20 hours a week?" comes to mind. </p>
We ask Pat and Rich to create a new section, or revive the proposed EN Black Ops initiatives from a few years ago I agree with that but I don't think it's black ops, see below
We move your suggestion to a dedicated discussion of "let's figure out a way to keep this conversation going" to the WSM forum I don't love this idea, see below
We ask Pat and Rich to set up a teleconference / group thing / e brainstorm with WSM (or Interested Smart Members) and generate some ideas Absolutely, fully agree, again, see below
We nominate a EN High Performance Guru I don't love this idea. We have coaches, both of who are high-performance athletes. We have a community of athletes (many of whom are high-performance athletes) and a mechanism and platform for them to learn from one another. I don't know what a "guru" does. Unless there is logic I'm missing, I believe the buck needs to stop with the coaches as "gurus".
Overall I think there a need for EN's continued evolution to include some offerings for higher-performance athletes. My view is that the first 3 points in the list above are related to that offering. I.e. - It would be good for RnP to convene a group to get input - The offering is transparent, part of EN (actually helps EN market itself to high-performance athletes), and not some sort of black-ops thing. That said, it is available to a subset of the community who meet some sort of criteria, not an opt-in based on desire to be faster. I would put the challenge to the coaches to articulate and "productize" the core IP of this offering. If the stock EN philosophy is high ROI and execution, what is the unique approach that will elevate the WTC podium contenders? It's sure more than "high volume" because that only takes 3/4 of a brain. It probably has some elements of customization, because when you're going for the last .5% of performance the reality is that different people respond to different approaches. It might have some additional cost... - It does not take the WSMs and what they offer to the broader community away from the broader community (e.g. with 630 views, the people who are learning from this thread number way more than those who have contributed to it...it would be a shame to move it to a private forum).
Just some top-of-mind reactions Dave...interested in what others have to say...
I aspire to work some of Dave’s intensitied volume into my schedule.I work full time but have things scheduled so that I probably could do more training hours.I plan to be careful being a somewhat wimpy recoverer.And mentally hard to accomplish, especially as my bikes are indoors.And of course we all have all the other stuff to balance: relationships, etc.
I like the simple concept that Al states: Do long distance work at a gear higher.Or with intervals that are a gear higher. Though that is not exactly the same.
Yes would be nice to have some sort of way to more officially adjust training plans to suite those trying to get to the pointy end.You folks have floated some nice ideas on this.
For folks that want some one to one coaching input outside what our low monthly fee covers, consider paying for some coach consultation time.I assume this is still available?
Lots of activity in this thread... I have responses to some of the comments but first wanted to provide an update.
Halfway thru the Run Focus... Last 8 weeks run mileage went like this 28, 35, 39, 45, 52, 57, 62, 41..... You can see the progressive build and this week was a reduced mileage week.... At least 2/3's of that mileage is on trails (mostly easy trails)... Speed work has been very minimal with strides once or twice a week , a couple miles of tempo , the remainder in Z1-2 although I would argue more Z2 based on RPE on the trails vs. actual pace (IOW a lot of the pace falls within Z1 but the trails are harder than road). I'm in the desert , seeing wildlife, enjoying myself , and building an engine that feels like it could go forever! Swim has been 5-6000yds a week with at least one session of 10 x 100(this has been good maintenance and only a couple seconds per 100 slower than peak), Bike avg. has been 60-80miles a week mostly easy but at least 5-10min v02 and 10-20minFTP (this has also been good maintenance and feel FTP is still pretty close to where I left it)....... The biggest thing for us type "A's" is running all those miles at a slower pace and trusting or knowing you won't get slower.... Next up is 4 solid weeks of run volume in the mid 60mpw avg....
Um, yeah, this thread has morphed into a brain-storming session about how to leverage EN for, to build on Matt's phrase, those who are, or aspire to become, "WTC podium contenders". There are many reasons for keeping the conversation as open as possible:
Just because you're not fast doesn't mean you're not smart or experienced
Conversely, just because you're fast doesn't mean you're smart or experienced
What works for getting fast for the FOP also works for getting fast in the MOP and the BOP
I've got my post-race check in phone calls with both RnP on Mon & Tues. I'll bring this issue up, and suggest they check out this thread. I'm reminded that six years ago, when I was feeling lonely as the oldest ENer, it was an easy ask to get the Boomers' Forum created. Over the years, I have adopted the posture that, when I see someone else who is making the climb up the ladder, they might feel a bit lonely, and would appreciate a perspective from someone who's made that same climb ... I'm referring both to climbing the chronology ladder and the podium ladder. I've found I learn just as much if not more than what I might be teaching. Having a place where we can do that together feels right to me. It would be nice to see these kind of conversations all housed in one spot, rather than disappearing quickly into the fog of the General Training forum.
This thread is for all.... Specially those who fit the- I been thru 3-4 OS, stagnated, and I'm looking for 1% more...
I think its safe to say that those looking for 1% more could care less about ROI..... IOW if you really are struggling to get a measly 1% more performance (like I am) then you better be willing to do what ever it takes to squeeze that out.... ROI goes out the window.....
I had a discussion with someone a few years ago that said EN was best for the MOP BOP peeps.... I completely disagreed... I still disagree.... But we are all self-coached in the end and our individual returns on our training will be different.... There is room for more for the advanced/FOP/high performance athlete... I agree with Matt and this should be transparent to all... I envision it as more individualized than the current EN model.... As I stated in the open of this thread there is no better model than the EN model to get those first 3 years of gains out of an athlete....Its at this point that something should change to stimulate the individual athlete to new highs... But its also at this point that the athlete knows themselves pretty good, has gone over their strengths and weaknesses , and with the help (unbiased outside view ) of the Team/Coaches we should be able to move forward...
When I had that conversation a few years ago I really considered hiring a One on One Coach ... I actually tried to hire Dr. Skiba , there were issues I wont get into but it didnt work out... I then considered 2 others (one I did 2 consultations with).... Bottomline is I stayed 100% EN and KQ'ed my next race and KQ'ed 3 more since then.... I have followed a few former EN high performance athletes after they have left EN and they have had mixed results....None of them had a magical breakthru with different training...
My thoughts: After you have been in EN for several years , the coaches know you intimately , Coach P has seen me race at least 4 IM's , OLY , Boston Marathon , some from the sidelines and some from the course , Coach R has seen me race 1 IM and has gone on a couple hour ride with me , Dave , Al , JW and many other EN team members have seen me race . These are people that have trained with me and watched me race... Then have taken the time to read , race plans, race reports, power files , and give well thought out feedback. IMO There is no one else more qualified to comment on my training and offer suggestions. Why on earth would you want to go anywhere else? Even people like Matt Aaronson who I have never met, but who has followed my training/racing with very well thought out conversations , is very qualified to help me! He never met me but he knows me.... You can't get this kind of support and intimate knowledge from a one on one coach ... How do we leverage this going forward is the Question.. It maybe no more than doing what I have done in this thread , with my own thoughts on single sport focus , then tweaks with team input? I really don't know?
@Dave... What are you trying to do kill me? Just kidding I can handle it... some of it anyway... I agree for that 1%, more is more (until it isnt) ... This is a fine line one must tread , balancing volume with intensity against RECOVERY! I do plan to incorporate almost all of your thoughts specifically your bike and brick suggestions... Defintely agree with Matt though running intensity being a bit much.... Last year I did last 3 miles of a long-run at HMP... The run will have to be revisited in my IM build to see how I'm feeling and where I am at after these 2 single sport focusses I am doing....Some group rides for the bike focus are going on my plate! Once it starts getting warmer, and I'm done with run focus, I plan to do some local group rides before attempting the famous "Shootout Ride"....
@Bob... Yes I agree we have a minor dilemma discussing anything different than traditional EN theories.... But the real risk is that people NOT complete 3 years of traditional EN methods before embarking on more polarized methods... RnP are really smart guys , EN works .... At some point change and variability is required....When you drill down into that change and variability its still has plenty of EN principles , its just how they are approached and re-arranged...
You mentioned something pretty important in your recent reply that I didn't hear you say earlier. "Couldn't care less about ROI." Inside EN, ROI is everything - because 99% of us lead very busy lives and will burn out if we train like mad men. Pros lead very different lives and, if ROI means little/nothing to you, so do you. You're already getting the most/nearly most out of your bike and run. Sure, you could bike 500 miles/wk and gain a few minutes. Or you could run 60-70 miles/week, but you'd probably get injured (I know I would). But if ROI isn't a concern, you could shave 7-8 minutes off your swim, which in my view, translates to 10-15 minutes in a mass-start IM (wave starts and time trials are different animals). Which could put you on the big step of the podium. Why the 1.5-2x multiplier? Swimming up front is more peaceful and aerobic, with fewer HR spikes like when you're in the pack and have to surge and when you get kicked or punched. Just less stress. You're way faster through T1. You will be by yourself on the bike, perhaps passing/being passed by dozens, not hundreds (that = better VI = better bike = faster run). If it's a 2x loop course, you'll only be by yourself the first loop. T2 will be faster. You'll start the run earlier, perhaps in cooler temps. The above isn't fact; just my theory and my personal experience the few times I have managed my way through the first discipline near the front.
How? You answered the question this weekend in another post when you mentioned TJ's typical training week. 20-30k in the water, 300 on the bike, 50 on the run. That's a lot of pool time, and he was a stud college swimmer. You already do 300/50 on the B/R, so the swim seems like an easy time grab if you can spare an extra 3-4 hrs in the pool. If you go Google the typical training weeks for other top swim-IMers like Rhodes, Kessler or Corbin, you'll find they all do something very similar - around 25k/200-300/50. Or go to ST and ask Jordan how he went from bad-pro swimmer to mid-pack pro swimmer: 25k/week. And the improved swim fitness will most likely have some positive, residual effect on the bike (at least the early portion).
I'm not advocating the idea for you. Just throwing it out there after you mentioned the magic ROI word.
@MR---Its not that I don't really care about ROI , its more like acknowledging what it takes to get that last 1%..... A huge amount of work... How that work is dispersed across the SBR spectrum still has a ROI to the individual... I am lucky at this point in my life to be able to spend as much time training as I want or can recover from... However it wasn't always like this... My first 2 yrs with EN I worked a very restrictive schedule but still chose to swim in the OS because I was willing to put the time in for a small ROI in the swim .... Having said all that , you could very well have touched on my current limiter or more appropriately the place I could possibly save the most time "THE SWIM".... I did work my A$$ off on the swim last year racking up 485,770yds in 2014 or averaging 40,480yds per month for 12 months.... I did set PR's at ALL swim distances last season , However I did NOT set any new 1000yd TT PR's , Nor did the swim improvement show up in my KONA swim :-( ..... I do plan to hit the swim hard again this season and with plenty of volume , maybe next winter I will do the SWIM single sport focus!
@Bob... Yes I agree we have a minor dilemma discussing anything different than traditional EN theories.... But the real risk is that people NOT complete 3 years of traditional EN methods before embarking on more polarized methods... RnP are really smart guys , EN works .... At some point change and variability is required....When you drill down into that change and variability its still has plenty of EN principles , its just how they are approached and re-arranged...
100% agree to follow the EN method for three years or so. Change things up once stagnation sets in.
The traditional EN methodology has far more in common with a polarized approach than a LSD approach but there's still some mid zone stuff in the EN methodology which polarized training looks to remove. A lot of that does come from some simple rearrangement and approach. I think EN has less easy than the polarized approach, obviously more mid zone, and a little less hard. So it's a matter of rearranging the intensity and scheduling of some workouts.
yea. for me the take away is that I just need to commit to a few OS before getting creative. I have always found an excuse to not do the OS. Burn out, other interests, shiny object syndrome. I gotta do a few before deciding that they wont help me.
This has been a great thread and exactly why I joined EN. Thank you all for your input. I was up way too late last night reading and rereading this thread and would like to see it continue. Even though I am new to EN and don't post often, I do read the forums A LOT.
So, @Tim, I've read a few of your race reports and have learned something each time. Thank you for sharing. But I haven't read them all so please forgive me if you've already answered my questions in previous threads.
You started this thread by saying you wanted to "shake things up". I've read a lot here about your thoughts on SBR training but only a little about the other aspects of being a Triathlete. So, since you're looking for that extra 1%, will you tell us about those other aspects of your training?
Like: Recovery. Dave Tallo stated, "more is more (til it isn't)". How we push that "isn't" further away is by recovery. @JW has talked about using NormaTec boots with an ice vest. (BTW: @JW: would love to read more about that and how often you do it.) What recovery do you do? Ice immersion alternating with hot baths? Massage? "Active Recovery" workouts? As a matter of fact, would love to read more about how all of you at the pointy end recover!
Do you lift weights? I read in Al Tuscott's annual workout summary, that he listed the hours he lifted last year. But I didn't see any annual weight lifting hours in your annual summary.
@Robin mentioned gait analysis. You replied, "I've had people look at me but no real professional gait analysis that does interest me...afraid to change anything as long as I can stay injury free..." But aren't you looking for that 1%? @Robin also asked if your were bow legged and you said you were. Bow legged people tend to have ITB issues and inner thigh and glute weakness. Do you? Trio in Los Angeles offers gait analysis. Maybe you could visit them while you are at Brian Stover's AeroCamp 2/28 and 3/31 if you are still heading to southern CA. When MR mentioned the swim, you replied, "worked my A$$ off on the swim last year racking up 485,770 yds in 2014 or averaging 40,480 yds per month for 12 months.... I did set PR's at ALL swim distances last season. However, I did NOT set any new 1000yd TT PR's. Nor did the swim improvement show up in my KONA swim :-(" So since you set a PR at ALL swim distances last year, you may have time there for PRing at Kona. But instead of putting in over 5000,000yds for that extra improvement this year, have you considered going to any swim clinics/camps for a video technique evaluation? Maybe a small tweak in your catch, pull, and/or recovery could make a huge difference. In the past I was a BOP swimmer. Last year I went to Kona in January and set up a 3 day private instruction "mini-camp" with Karlyn Pipes, owner of not only AquaticEdge.org but also multiple master's world swim records who is being inducted in to the International Swimming Hall of Fame this summer. I spent two mornings in her Endless Pool working on technique and on the third day we spent an hour at the local pool. Every day she video taped the session and provided commentary on my technique so I could review it later. She also offered to take me swimming on the Kona course and go over course specific tips. (I passed on that since I knew I was years away from worrying about that And BTW, you mentioned that the swim improvement didn't show up in your Kona swim. She said that she has swam the course multiple times (year round you can see the moorings that anchor the IM buoys since the water is so clear) with GPS and it is something like 0.3 miles long. She said she has talked with the race director about it and that person said they are aware of the long distance and that the moorings were placed before GPS. But to correct it now would change swim course records, possibly course records, etc. Oh well. I am not a FOP swimmer with a 1:08 at IMAZ, but I will be. And since water is more resistant than air, we all know that technique is "where the money is" for improving your swim speed.
Have you used an "optimized" bike chain? Ultrafast Optimization claims a 6W improvement. But I've not seen it independently verified. Thoughts?
I have a bunch more questions but will leave it with these.
And, my 2 cents about this thread to the WSMers and Coaches RnP: Please don't take these types of threads and put them in "different areas" only available to other FOPers or a "subset of the community who meet some sort of criteria, not an opt-in based on desire to be faster" as recommended. I feel that will only "put-off" MOP and BOP triathletes, the heart of EN. I understand your concerns that less experienced, less trained members may try to "get rich quick" by trying to emulate the methods discussed by FOPers, but most people reading this understand that. None of us joined EN because Coaches RnP were selling us "get rich quick schemes". But as my older brother taught me during my senior year in college, "start reading and educating yourself now about saving money and saving for retirement so that you will know what to do with your money before you start earning it". I'm very thankful for that advice and try to do the same in other interest in life. So even though I am not as experienced or trained as you guys are at this point of my triathlon "career", I will be one day. By being a "fly on the wall" on this thread and others like it, the threads are helping me to learn how to be a FOPer. Isn't that the goal of EN: to help people improve? I did joined EN to learn from others. To not make the same mistakes they have made and to avoid the pitfalls others have found the hard way. And one day I hope to give back to others on these threads as you guys are doing now. When I read what you WSMers write as you reflect on what has worked and not worked for you, that's GOLD to me. I only came across this thread because I clicked on Dave Tallo's name and was reviewing comments he had left on threads and saw this title. It would be great if there was a thread titled something like "Don't Miss This" or "This is F-ing Gold" that has links to other threads that the coaches deem worthy to be highlighted. (Not to say that all the threads are not worthy....but you know what I meant.)
And of course, you can tell me to "go pound sand" and mind my own business. Either way, I appreciate what you and the others have already taught the rest of us and I hope you keep periodically updating the thread on how your n=1 is going. Thanks again from a MOPer who, like George Jefferson from the TV show The Jeffersons, is "moving on up!"
@-Bob Nelson- Awesome stuff and welcome any and all questions.
My Disclaimer- I'm just a guy with no formal training or instruction for coaching , nutrition , etc... I started triathlon in 2009 and had a very expedited learning curve thanks to the guidance/education from EN , RnP, Al Truscott, Dave Tallo , etc... Oh yeah and being Type "A" with an addictive personality doesnt hurt....So take my thoughts, comments, theories as just that from a self-coached educated athlete!
Recovery- I'm very lucky that I am retired this is more helpful for recovering than training..... I practice a plant-based diet... Fuel with high-carb before, during, and after every wko... Try to eat lots of colors all the time...I still eat vegan junk food and train with typical sports drinks , bars, gels.... Zero supplements (except iron which I tested low for pre-vegan diet and a one a day vitamin which I believe to be totally unnecessary but old habit and Heather puts it out for me ;-))... I Believe in the inflammation caused by training to be an important part of the picture and recovering from this inflammation naturally important to make us stronger , so for the most part I do not take nsaids, compression, ice , or other non-natural methods to reduce that inflammation...When I'm really hurting or cant sleep(usually after a huge day with too much caffeine) I will take advil and or advil PM but I really try to keep this to a minimum and NEVER when racing...While recovery is probably more important than the actual training its also important to properly gauge the amount training (intensity and volume) that you can handle and recover from.... NOT digging a hole that needs too much recovery to come out of.... Consistency is the key and this means years NOT weeks.... Slowly over-time I believe we can handle more and recover from this better....Massage YES if you can find a good one but not too often , Not right before or after a race! I found a really good one in Tucson , she is a retired Tri AG'er who used to KQ and race KONA , she completely gets it , and knows what to do!
Weights- Quick answer NO but???.... I came from a rock-climbing background (no endurance sports at all) I used to be 130lbs when really rock-climbing fit.... Now I'm 120lbs when Tri-Fit.... So I have lost a lot of muscle but also assumed a new acceptable leaness for tri.... Having read the pro's and con's to weight training for triathlon , I truly believe it will not make you faster.... So I see no real upside (with the exception of injury prevention) but there certainly is no downside just a matter of how important it is to you and if you have the time....There is some good data pointing toward strength training for older athletes (I'm in this window now) ....So while I do view swim, bike , run , intervals , hills, vo2 to be all the strength training I need , I have been making a real effort to add some strength training to my week this year.... I have managed to hit the gym twice a week for almost 2 months now and do 30 minutes on machines and free weights in the effort to gain a small amount of muscle back and work those few muscles not covered in the SBR. I must say it has been enjoyable...
Gait Analysis- You and Robin are right I really should get a gait analysis done... With the amount of time, energy , and money I spend in this sport , gait analysis would be nothing... I do have a slight bow legged look to me when I run... ITB issues - Yes left leg in my first year running 2009 , Yes right leg in my 2nd year running 2010 , 3rd or 4th year I had almost a full season of sciatica , the last 3 years basically Nothing.... Classic example of too much too soon in the first few years.... I do have low back issues on the right side (2 herniated disc's decades ago) and that pops up now and then , when it does I feel glute, ITB, hamstring on that side.... But it subsides within a week and does respond to good massage.... I really should get a gait analysis.... I probably will! I have run 240 miles with 15k elevation gain mostly on trails in the last 27 days and feel great.... Great is relative as I'm tired and sore but ZERO issues anywhere besides a Peter Noyes Black Toenail!
Swim- Mike Roberts has pushed me to work my swim... You and he are also right and I should get further one on one swim instruction.... But I have treated the swim differently than the run realizing it does require more technique... Swam my whole life as a kid but never was instructed , I started really swimming in 2008 , then I saw a real swimmer, then I went to youtube and learned a few things, then went to masters class and learned some more, then took weekly semi-private (only 2 of us) for a couple months with a different masters coach , then I have had one on one video instruction with swimmer tri-coach , couple more self videos.... I would love an endless pool session with video or 3! Will also look around for that as well...
Optimized bike Chain- YES ... again in the theme of the amount of money I spend a fancy chain is nothing... I buy one per year ... I put it on only for my IM's then take it off after ... when the race season is over the training chain comes off and the racing chain goes on... Repeat.... Does it help? I don't know but I think one should at least do the same with a regular chain. IOW race with a brand new clean chain!
Keep the questions coming... Add your own thoughts comments and your beliefs.... We all learn!
@ Tim-Thanks for not sharing a picture of you toe nail! And thanks for your responses. How has the running been going? Do you feel the running focus has changed things up for you enough to get off the plateau? Have you looked in to a gait analysis while in LA? Did you feel the Master's swim class was worth the time? Any other race day tips you have besides the optimized chain? We appreciate the thoughts and recommendations of type "A" addictive personality self-coached educated types.
@ Tim-Thanks for not sharing a picture of you toe nail! And thanks for your responses. How has the running been going? Do you feel the running focus has changed things up for you enough to get off the plateau?
I couldnt resist the photo! Can you tell which foot it mine? Running has been going great.... I've absorbed all the volume I planned to... But I have no idea if it will help in my IM's later this year.... I will say with confidence I have built very good durability.... Stand by for Ultra Race Reports next weekend and again 3 weeks after that!
Have you looked in to a gait analysis while in LA?
I've looked a bit in LA but will be rather busy while there so not really an opportune time... A lot locally.... Nothing yet... I dont want to be sold something!
Did you feel the Master's swim class was worth the time?
Masters - gives me mixed feelings... I usually feel like I am working too hard or not hard enough and its usually not hard enough... I have no problem self motivating and pushing myself but welcome the competition that a master's class provides.... When I say working too hard in masters I mean not enough rest and pushing a pace (with bad form)! When I say not working hard enough its usually too much rest or easy sets...
Any other race day tips you have besides the optimized chain?
Yeah build your EN engine as big as you can get it!
We appreciate the thoughts and recommendations of type "A" addictive personality self-coached educated types.
Great stuff, dissecting, discussing, thinking..... training,gear,nutrition are all part of the game .... But the mental preparedness thru education/knowledge etc is just HUGE IMO...
Run Focus complete... 16 weeks , 874 miles , 134hrs , 54.6 miles per week average.... 50K and 50 Miler Done..... Speed work totals maybe 7-8 min per week average done as 30" rolling strides.... All other miles Z1-2.....Very minimal speed work to say the least...
Today I raced a 5k.... 8 days after the 50 mile Ultra , 1 day after a 3.5 hr MTB race , was a very windy day , I'm still heavy , no speed work preparation , just a week of recovery and a 2 mile pre-race warm up.... I ran a 6:34 pace or vdot 48.7 for the 5k vs. a 6:15 pace or vdot 51.6 at the very same race last year.... So much slower , BUT I feel really good about it and have full confidence full speed will come back very quickly.... Below is a progression of 5k tests from last year and as you can see I am right where I was at he beginning of DEC/Jan....
Thanks for sharing the photo. I didn't need to see that but for some reason I clicked on the link anyway! Haha
Enjoyed the recent run race reports and your podcast with Coach Patrick. Thank you for taking the time. How's Heather's stress fracture healing?
After all the run miles, how is your right side (glutes, ITB, hamstring)? With your issues being mainly on one side, have you had a body symmetry analysis done by a PT or chiropractor, especially one who specializes in Active Release Therapy (ART)? Just a thought. Do you feel you are coming out of the plateau?
@Bob.... Heather is recovering from the SF very well , thanks for asking.... After all those run miles my right side issues glute, ITB , hamstring have virtually dissappeared.... Could be the bike that brings it on ? So no, I have never had body symmetry analysis... I did have some Graston (very similar to ART) on a previous knee/ITB thing I had and I gotta tell ya the PT did some magic on me (really worked) and hurt! Still working on a possible form analysis for the swim/run but the bike focus has started.... Coming out of a plateau? too early too tell and not sure if I will ever really know since even if all this works I won't be crushing old PB's but merely inching past them....Literally looking for seconds/minutes and higher placement in AG.... For now I am happy with how things are shaping up... Gotta do some bike work, some speed work across the board, and lose 5-6lbs to see where I'm at!
@Tim: Glad Heather is recovering. It can be tough on both athletes when one has an injury and can't workout but the other pushes on. Very interesting that your right side body issues went away with all that running, especially all the hills/elevation changes. Did you change your running shoes around the time the issues went away? Did the issues get better since retiring? Maybe the type of chair you sat in at work was the culprit. If not, I agree that the bike would be the next logical area to look at to try to prevent the issues from returning.
Bike Focus is Done.... I started in earnest 10 days after the last Ultra... So I'm calling the bike focus from 3/17 - 4/8 ..... 22 days
Stats for those 22 days..... 89hrs total , Rode 19 out of 22 days , 1090 miles biked with 67k elevation climbed , 86 miles run , 33k yds in the pool
Time Breakup... Bike 80% , Run 12% , Swim 8%
Last 3 Days as part of the Tallo/Satish Tucson Epic ..... Day 1- 9000yd swim, 75 mile bike..... Day 2 - 152 mile bike .... Day 3 - 26 mile run
Most of this was done at lower than IM intensity... I ate/slept a lot... Felt pretty good for the entire focus with one exception on a 106 mile ride with Dave I completely came apart, had a lot of negative thoughts , but snapped back after an easy day...
My thoughts? well its been different and fun.... I'd do it again.... Will it help my racing this season? No idea yet... There is no doubt I have built a very durable long distance engine.... There is also no doubt it has come at a cost to some of my top end speed/power.... We shall see...
Going forward- 1 complete full day OFF....more food/more sleep...introducing a more balanced w/intensity training over the next 2.5 weeks , almost a week of travel back to NH with ZERO training .... Then the traditional 12 week Advanced EN plan build to IMLP....
@Tim: Glad to read that the "shake up" bike focus was fun. That by itself can get you out of your plateau. Question: After the bike volume, any issues with right sided-back issues like in the past?
@Bob.... No issues arose at all during all that biking.... One exception the undercarriage ! So I have been trouble free for quite awhile, will be interesting to see if it resurfaces during the intensity and/or tri-bike position!
Comments
In general, I like Dave's approach. I am already intending to follow the" volume trumps intensity" route during my 10-12 weeks leading to the two IMs I'm doing this year. Over the past four years, that is the one thing I have dropped from where I was pre-2011. I used to bike commute to work 2-3 times a week, 20-30 mi round trip, as well as engage in yearly week-long bike trips and frequent 4-5 hour mountain bike escapades. In addition, my running and swimming volume fell off 2010/11/12 as I dealt with my bike accident and its (surgical) aftermath. Trying to replace that volume with intensity on the bike and swim did not achieve the desired effect in '13& '14, so I'm re-thinking things along the lines Dave outlines.
One place where I differ: I think the prime training effect in any build for a specific race comes from "one gear up". That is, training for extended periods at one "gear" faster than race pace. Meaning, for me prepping for an IM, riding at 75-80% IF on long bikes, running at MP on long runs, and swimming 6-9 minute intervals @ T pace. So I won't be doing HMP or TP intervals during bricks, or excessive HMP in long runs (just 1-2 miles at the end). I'm not worried about injury - I seem to be immune from over use injuries - but I do experience excessive fatigue and negative impact on downstream workouts when I try that kind of stuff.
We need to figure out a way to keep this conversation going. Some of us obviously value the EN space and race execution strategies, yet need help in refining the training approach for our particular needs. The risk is, someone trying out these sorts of ideas at the wrong stage of their triathlon career.
Bingo! The EN style workouts generally don't work for me anymore. Let me stress the "FOR ME" part of that comment again. It worked wonders for me for a few years... until it didn't. My performance stagnated and I don't think there was enough easy (recovery) in the plans FOR ME and I drilled myself into a hole last year. That's why I'm gravitating towards the polarized concept this year. Eliminating the sweet spot "dead zone" as some people like to call it. Which is where much of the EN workouts call home.
I'm at the stage of my tri career that I need to shake things up. It's time FOR ME to do that. Someone newer to the game and still making tremendous gains and results should stick to the EN plan. It's a great method with thousands of success stories proving it works (me included).
I think a lot of us have a sort of moral dilemma advocating something different from the EN way within these forums. I guess it can be interpreted as undercutting Rich and Patrick's work. Not saying they feel that way as I think they like to foster opinions and thoughts outside their box, but I think we sometimes feel that way. I started a polarized training topic a couple of months back and I think Al was the only person who responded. Yet there are threads on ST that go on for months and have hundreds of replies discussing the concept and its applicability.
Matt - my thinking behind the bike work for Tim is based on a few different things:
1. I think one of his competitive strengths is as a 'diesel engine' on the bike - he has an ability to sustain a low VI (and RPE if I remember right) and I would exploit that to see just how high that could go before it starts to burn matches later on;
2. As Tim is north of 50, and I would suspect that his FTP, his ceiling, and his roof are probably at their max unless there is some kind of serious cycling intervention in the OS. And, it turns out that's exactly what he has in mind in his tweaked OS, but I think following his cycling block, there's isn't going to be any room to grow those metrics, and the remaining gains are going to be found in going at a higher effort, long. The danger zone point is acknowledged, but I think the higher IM gear is the only adaptation that remains following the single sport block.
Also, you're probably right for the HMP running for guys with pure run speed like yours. In fact, I think this came up in Stefan's thread last year. As applied to you, I think you're spot on about a very strong finish to whatever the long run is. And by strong, I *definitely* mean at leas the last 2 miles at HMP, at 100% perfect pace, with perfect form, counting strides. In Tim's case, I want to see him negative split with no pace attrition in the last 8, and suggest the above to drill that, week after week.
Finally, the killer mile repeats brick is a Rinny workout that she does with Craig Alexander at about 9 weeks out from their A races. Now ... it's a massively bad idea to try to copy the run workouts that two of the best runners in the sport are doing, but I'm seeing it from getting at the intent only: she follows this to train running fast off the bike, and then to keep running fast, after running fast off the bike. I've included this at about 5 or 4 weeks out in my last two builds (mainly because I just didn't have the fitness to do it any sooner in the season) and it was fookin' tough. Doable, but tough.
Al - I strongly agree. A few ideas to ask for you / others to build on:
-Minimally, keep throwing things into this thread. Although it's about Tim, there are enough generalizable messages and insights to take away for all of us, or
-We ask Pat and Rich to create a new section, or revive the proposed EN Black Ops initiatives from a few years ago; or
-We move your suggestion to a dedicated discussion of "let's figure out a way to keep this conversation going" to the WSM forum, or
-We ask Pat and Rich to set up a teleconference / group thing / e brainstorm with WSM (or Interested Smart Members) and generate some ideas, or
-We nominate a EN High Performance Guru. Following our brief chat on the topic in October, I have a shortlist.
Bob ... great point and I've often felt that way. However, any guilt I've had has been ameliorated when I recall that Pat and Rich have also made posts that talk about their own training personalizations. In any of the cases - yours as above, the <g class="gr_ gr_427 gr-alert gr_gramm Punctuation only-del replaceWithoutSep" id="427" data-gr-id="427">coaches',</g> or others - I think they have been presented with a healthy enough caveat to say why it's different and acceptable in their cases. Patrick's thread title (loosely recalled) of "If EN is about high ROI, why are my coaches training 20 hours a week?" comes to mind. </p>
We ask Pat and Rich to create a new section, or revive the proposed EN Black Ops initiatives from a few years ago
I agree with that but I don't think it's black ops, see below
We move your suggestion to a dedicated discussion of "let's figure out a way to keep this conversation going" to the WSM forum
I don't love this idea, see below
We ask Pat and Rich to set up a teleconference / group thing / e brainstorm with WSM (or Interested Smart Members) and generate some ideas
Absolutely, fully agree, again, see below
We nominate a EN High Performance Guru
I don't love this idea. We have coaches, both of who are high-performance athletes. We have a community of athletes (many of whom are high-performance athletes) and a mechanism and platform for them to learn from one another. I don't know what a "guru" does. Unless there is logic I'm missing, I believe the buck needs to stop with the coaches as "gurus".
Overall I think there a need for EN's continued evolution to include some offerings for higher-performance athletes. My view is that the first 3 points in the list above are related to that offering. I.e.
- It would be good for RnP to convene a group to get input
- The offering is transparent, part of EN (actually helps EN market itself to high-performance athletes), and not some sort of black-ops thing. That said, it is available to a subset of the community who meet some sort of criteria, not an opt-in based on desire to be faster. I would put the challenge to the coaches to articulate and "productize" the core IP of this offering. If the stock EN philosophy is high ROI and execution, what is the unique approach that will elevate the WTC podium contenders? It's sure more than "high volume" because that only takes 3/4 of a brain. It probably has some elements of customization, because when you're going for the last .5% of performance the reality is that different people respond to different approaches. It might have some additional cost...
- It does not take the WSMs and what they offer to the broader community away from the broader community (e.g. with 630 views, the people who are learning from this thread number way more than those who have contributed to it...it would be a shame to move it to a private forum).
Just some top-of-mind reactions Dave...interested in what others have to say...
I aspire to work some of Dave’s intensitied volume into my
schedule. I work full time but
have things scheduled so that I probably could do more training hours. I
plan to be careful being a somewhat wimpy recoverer. And mentally hard to accomplish,
especially as my bikes are indoors. And
of course we all have all the other stuff to balance: relationships, etc.
I like the simple concept that Al states: Do long distance
work at a gear higher. Or with
intervals that are a gear higher. Though that is not exactly the same.
Yes would be nice to have some sort of way to more
officially adjust training plans to suite those trying to get to the pointy
end. You folks have floated some
nice ideas on this.
For folks that want some one to one coaching input outside
what our low monthly fee covers, consider paying for some coach consultation
time. I assume this is still
available?
Halfway thru the Run Focus... Last 8 weeks run mileage went like this 28, 35, 39, 45, 52, 57, 62, 41..... You can see the progressive build and this week was a reduced mileage week.... At least 2/3's of that mileage is on trails (mostly easy trails)... Speed work has been very minimal with strides once or twice a week , a couple miles of tempo , the remainder in Z1-2 although I would argue more Z2 based on RPE on the trails vs. actual pace (IOW a lot of the pace falls within Z1 but the trails are harder than road). I'm in the desert , seeing wildlife, enjoying myself , and building an engine that feels like it could go forever! Swim has been 5-6000yds a week with at least one session of 10 x 100(this has been good maintenance and only a couple seconds per 100 slower than peak), Bike avg. has been 60-80miles a week mostly easy but at least 5-10min v02 and 10-20minFTP (this has also been good maintenance and feel FTP is still pretty close to where I left it)....... The biggest thing for us type "A's" is running all those miles at a slower pace and trusting or knowing you won't get slower.... Next up is 4 solid weeks of run volume in the mid 60mpw avg....
Um, yeah, this thread has morphed into a brain-storming session about how to leverage EN for, to build on Matt's phrase, those who are, or aspire to become, "WTC podium contenders". There are many reasons for keeping the conversation as open as possible:
I've got my post-race check in phone calls with both RnP on Mon & Tues. I'll bring this issue up, and suggest they check out this thread. I'm reminded that six years ago, when I was feeling lonely as the oldest ENer, it was an easy ask to get the Boomers' Forum created. Over the years, I have adopted the posture that, when I see someone else who is making the climb up the ladder, they might feel a bit lonely, and would appreciate a perspective from someone who's made that same climb ... I'm referring both to climbing the chronology ladder and the podium ladder. I've found I learn just as much if not more than what I might be teaching. Having a place where we can do that together feels right to me. It would be nice to see these kind of conversations all housed in one spot, rather than disappearing quickly into the fog of the General Training forum.
Sounds like a dream job, Tim.
I think its safe to say that those looking for 1% more could care less about ROI..... IOW if you really are struggling to get a measly 1% more performance (like I am) then you better be willing to do what ever it takes to squeeze that out.... ROI goes out the window.....
I had a discussion with someone a few years ago that said EN was best for the MOP BOP peeps.... I completely disagreed... I still disagree.... But we are all self-coached in the end and our individual returns on our training will be different.... There is room for more for the advanced/FOP/high performance athlete... I agree with Matt and this should be transparent to all... I envision it as more individualized than the current EN model.... As I stated in the open of this thread there is no better model than the EN model to get those first 3 years of gains out of an athlete....Its at this point that something should change to stimulate the individual athlete to new highs... But its also at this point that the athlete knows themselves pretty good, has gone over their strengths and weaknesses , and with the help (unbiased outside view ) of the Team/Coaches we should be able to move forward...
When I had that conversation a few years ago I really considered hiring a One on One Coach ... I actually tried to hire Dr. Skiba , there were issues I wont get into but it didnt work out... I then considered 2 others (one I did 2 consultations with).... Bottomline is I stayed 100% EN and KQ'ed my next race and KQ'ed 3 more since then.... I have followed a few former EN high performance athletes after they have left EN and they have had mixed results....None of them had a magical breakthru with different training...
My thoughts: After you have been in EN for several years , the coaches know you intimately , Coach P has seen me race at least 4 IM's , OLY , Boston Marathon , some from the sidelines and some from the course , Coach R has seen me race 1 IM and has gone on a couple hour ride with me , Dave , Al , JW and many other EN team members have seen me race . These are people that have trained with me and watched me race... Then have taken the time to read , race plans, race reports, power files , and give well thought out feedback. IMO There is no one else more qualified to comment on my training and offer suggestions. Why on earth would you want to go anywhere else? Even people like Matt Aaronson who I have never met, but who has followed my training/racing with very well thought out conversations , is very qualified to help me! He never met me but he knows me.... You can't get this kind of support and intimate knowledge from a one on one coach ... How do we leverage this going forward is the Question.. It maybe no more than doing what I have done in this thread , with my own thoughts on single sport focus , then tweaks with team input? I really don't know?
@Bob... Yes I agree we have a minor dilemma discussing anything different than traditional EN theories.... But the real risk is that people NOT complete 3 years of traditional EN methods before embarking on more polarized methods... RnP are really smart guys , EN works .... At some point change and variability is required....When you drill down into that change and variability its still has plenty of EN principles , its just how they are approached and re-arranged...
Tim,
You mentioned something pretty important in your recent reply that I didn't hear you say earlier. "Couldn't care less about ROI." Inside EN, ROI is everything - because 99% of us lead very busy lives and will burn out if we train like mad men. Pros lead very different lives and, if ROI means little/nothing to you, so do you. You're already getting the most/nearly most out of your bike and run. Sure, you could bike 500 miles/wk and gain a few minutes. Or you could run 60-70 miles/week, but you'd probably get injured (I know I would). But if ROI isn't a concern, you could shave 7-8 minutes off your swim, which in my view, translates to 10-15 minutes in a mass-start IM (wave starts and time trials are different animals). Which could put you on the big step of the podium. Why the 1.5-2x multiplier? Swimming up front is more peaceful and aerobic, with fewer HR spikes like when you're in the pack and have to surge and when you get kicked or punched. Just less stress. You're way faster through T1. You will be by yourself on the bike, perhaps passing/being passed by dozens, not hundreds (that = better VI = better bike = faster run). If it's a 2x loop course, you'll only be by yourself the first loop. T2 will be faster. You'll start the run earlier, perhaps in cooler temps. The above isn't fact; just my theory and my personal experience the few times I have managed my way through the first discipline near the front.
How? You answered the question this weekend in another post when you mentioned TJ's typical training week. 20-30k in the water, 300 on the bike, 50 on the run. That's a lot of pool time, and he was a stud college swimmer. You already do 300/50 on the B/R, so the swim seems like an easy time grab if you can spare an extra 3-4 hrs in the pool. If you go Google the typical training weeks for other top swim-IMers like Rhodes, Kessler or Corbin, you'll find they all do something very similar - around 25k/200-300/50. Or go to ST and ask Jordan how he went from bad-pro swimmer to mid-pack pro swimmer: 25k/week. And the improved swim fitness will most likely have some positive, residual effect on the bike (at least the early portion).
I'm not advocating the idea for you. Just throwing it out there after you mentioned the magic ROI word.
Mike
100% agree to follow the EN method for three years or so. Change things up once stagnation sets in.
The traditional EN methodology has far more in common with a polarized approach than a LSD approach but there's still some mid zone stuff in the EN methodology which polarized training looks to remove. A lot of that does come from some simple rearrangement and approach. I think EN has less easy than the polarized approach, obviously more mid zone, and a little less hard. So it's a matter of rearranging the intensity and scheduling of some workouts.
bike test tomorrow. shut up brain.
Go get em tim.
So, @Tim, I've read a few of your race reports and have learned something each time. Thank you for sharing. But I haven't read them all so please forgive me if you've already answered my questions in previous threads.
You started this thread by saying you wanted to "shake things up". I've read a lot here about your thoughts on SBR training but only a little about the other aspects of being a Triathlete. So, since you're looking for that extra 1%, will you tell us about those other aspects of your training?
Like:
Recovery. Dave Tallo stated, "more is more (til it isn't)". How we push that "isn't" further away is by recovery. @JW has talked about using NormaTec boots with an ice vest. (BTW: @JW: would love to read more about that and how often you do it.) What recovery do you do? Ice immersion alternating with hot baths? Massage? "Active Recovery" workouts? As a matter of fact, would love to read more about how all of you at the pointy end recover!
Do you lift weights? I read in Al Tuscott's annual workout summary, that he listed the hours he lifted last year. But I didn't see any annual weight lifting hours in your annual summary.
@Robin mentioned gait analysis. You replied, "I've had people look at me but no real professional gait analysis that does interest me...afraid to change anything as long as I can stay injury free..." But aren't you looking for that 1%? @Robin also asked if your were bow legged and you said you were. Bow legged people tend to have ITB issues and inner thigh and glute weakness. Do you? Trio in Los Angeles offers gait analysis. Maybe you could visit them while you are at Brian Stover's AeroCamp 2/28 and 3/31 if you are still heading to southern CA. When MR mentioned the swim, you replied, "worked my A$$ off on the swim last year racking up 485,770 yds in 2014 or averaging 40,480 yds per month for 12 months.... I did set PR's at ALL swim distances last season. However, I did NOT set any new 1000yd TT PR's. Nor did the swim improvement show up in my KONA swim :-(" So since you set a PR at ALL swim distances last year, you may have time there for PRing at Kona. But instead of putting in over 5000,000yds for that extra improvement this year, have you considered going to any swim clinics/camps for a video technique evaluation? Maybe a small tweak in your catch, pull, and/or recovery could make a huge difference. In the past I was a BOP swimmer. Last year I went to Kona in January and set up a 3 day private instruction "mini-camp" with Karlyn Pipes, owner of not only AquaticEdge.org but also multiple master's world swim records who is being inducted in to the International Swimming Hall of Fame this summer. I spent two mornings in her Endless Pool working on technique and on the third day we spent an hour at the local pool. Every day she video taped the session and provided commentary on my technique so I could review it later. She also offered to take me swimming on the Kona course and go over course specific tips. (I passed on that since I knew I was years away from worrying about that
Have you used an "optimized" bike chain? Ultrafast Optimization claims a 6W improvement. But I've not seen it independently verified. Thoughts?
I have a bunch more questions but will leave it with these.
And, my 2 cents about this thread to the WSMers and Coaches RnP:
Please don't take these types of threads and put them in "different areas" only available to other FOPers or a "subset of the community who meet some sort of criteria, not an opt-in based on desire to be faster" as recommended. I feel that will only "put-off" MOP and BOP triathletes, the heart of EN. I understand your concerns that less experienced, less trained members may try to "get rich quick" by trying to emulate the methods discussed by FOPers, but most people reading this understand that. None of us joined EN because Coaches RnP were selling us "get rich quick schemes". But as my older brother taught me during my senior year in college, "start reading and educating yourself now about saving money and saving for retirement so that you will know what to do with your money before you start earning it". I'm very thankful for that advice and try to do the same in other interest in life. So even though I am not as experienced or trained as you guys are at this point of my triathlon "career", I will be one day. By being a "fly on the wall" on this thread and others like it, the threads are helping me to learn how to be a FOPer. Isn't that the goal of EN: to help people improve? I did joined EN to learn from others. To not make the same mistakes they have made and to avoid the pitfalls others have found the hard way. And one day I hope to give back to others on these threads as you guys are doing now. When I read what you WSMers write as you reflect on what has worked and not worked for you, that's GOLD to me.
I only came across this thread because I clicked on Dave Tallo's name and was reviewing comments he had left on threads and saw this title. It would be great if there was a thread titled something like "Don't Miss This" or "This is F-ing Gold" that has links to other threads that the coaches deem worthy to be highlighted. (Not to say that all the threads are not worthy....but you know what I meant.)
And of course, you can tell me to "go pound sand" and mind my own business. Either way, I appreciate what you and the others have already taught the rest of us and I hope you keep periodically updating the thread on how your n=1 is going. Thanks again from a MOPer who, like George Jefferson from the TV show The Jeffersons, is "moving on up!"
My Disclaimer- I'm just a guy with no formal training or instruction for coaching , nutrition , etc... I started triathlon in 2009 and had a very expedited learning curve thanks to the guidance/education from EN , RnP, Al Truscott, Dave Tallo , etc... Oh yeah and being Type "A" with an addictive personality doesnt hurt....So take my thoughts, comments, theories as just that from a self-coached educated athlete!
Recovery- I'm very lucky that I am retired this is more helpful for recovering than training..... I practice a plant-based diet... Fuel with high-carb before, during, and after every wko... Try to eat lots of colors all the time...I still eat vegan junk food and train with typical sports drinks , bars, gels.... Zero supplements (except iron which I tested low for pre-vegan diet and a one a day vitamin which I believe to be totally unnecessary but old habit and Heather puts it out for me ;-))... I Believe in the inflammation caused by training to be an important part of the picture and recovering from this inflammation naturally important to make us stronger , so for the most part I do not take nsaids, compression, ice , or other non-natural methods to reduce that inflammation...When I'm really hurting or cant sleep(usually after a huge day with too much caffeine) I will take advil and or advil PM but I really try to keep this to a minimum and NEVER when racing...While recovery is probably more important than the actual training its also important to properly gauge the amount training (intensity and volume) that you can handle and recover from.... NOT digging a hole that needs too much recovery to come out of.... Consistency is the key and this means years NOT weeks.... Slowly over-time I believe we can handle more and recover from this better....Massage YES if you can find a good one but not too often , Not right before or after a race! I found a really good one in Tucson , she is a retired Tri AG'er who used to KQ and race KONA , she completely gets it , and knows what to do!
Weights- Quick answer NO but???.... I came from a rock-climbing background (no endurance sports at all) I used to be 130lbs when really rock-climbing fit.... Now I'm 120lbs when Tri-Fit.... So I have lost a lot of muscle but also assumed a new acceptable leaness for tri.... Having read the pro's and con's to weight training for triathlon , I truly believe it will not make you faster.... So I see no real upside (with the exception of injury prevention) but there certainly is no downside just a matter of how important it is to you and if you have the time....There is some good data pointing toward strength training for older athletes (I'm in this window now) ....So while I do view swim, bike , run , intervals , hills, vo2 to be all the strength training I need , I have been making a real effort to add some strength training to my week this year.... I have managed to hit the gym twice a week for almost 2 months now and do 30 minutes on machines and free weights in the effort to gain a small amount of muscle back and work those few muscles not covered in the SBR. I must say it has been enjoyable...
Gait Analysis- You and Robin are right I really should get a gait analysis done... With the amount of time, energy , and money I spend in this sport , gait analysis would be nothing... I do have a slight bow legged look to me when I run... ITB issues - Yes left leg in my first year running 2009 , Yes right leg in my 2nd year running 2010 , 3rd or 4th year I had almost a full season of sciatica , the last 3 years basically Nothing.... Classic example of too much too soon in the first few years.... I do have low back issues on the right side (2 herniated disc's decades ago) and that pops up now and then , when it does I feel glute, ITB, hamstring on that side.... But it subsides within a week and does respond to good massage.... I really should get a gait analysis.... I probably will! I have run 240 miles with 15k elevation gain mostly on trails in the last 27 days and feel great.... Great is relative as I'm tired and sore but ZERO issues anywhere besides a Peter Noyes Black Toenail!
Swim- Mike Roberts has pushed me to work my swim... You and he are also right and I should get further one on one swim instruction.... But I have treated the swim differently than the run realizing it does require more technique... Swam my whole life as a kid but never was instructed , I started really swimming in 2008 , then I saw a real swimmer, then I went to youtube and learned a few things, then went to masters class and learned some more, then took weekly semi-private (only 2 of us) for a couple months with a different masters coach , then I have had one on one video instruction with swimmer tri-coach , couple more self videos.... I would love an endless pool session with video or 3! Will also look around for that as well...
Optimized bike Chain- YES ... again in the theme of the amount of money I spend a fancy chain is nothing... I buy one per year ... I put it on only for my IM's then take it off after ... when the race season is over the training chain comes off and the racing chain goes on... Repeat.... Does it help? I don't know but I think one should at least do the same with a regular chain. IOW race with a brand new clean chain!
Keep the questions coming... Add your own thoughts comments and your beliefs.... We all learn!
Have you looked in to a gait analysis while in LA?
Did you feel the Master's swim class was worth the time?
Any other race day tips you have besides the optimized chain?
We appreciate the thoughts and recommendations of type "A" addictive personality self-coached educated types.
Run Focus complete... 16 weeks , 874 miles , 134hrs , 54.6 miles per week average.... 50K and 50 Miler Done..... Speed work totals maybe 7-8 min per week average done as 30" rolling strides.... All other miles Z1-2.....Very minimal speed work to say the least...
Today I raced a 5k.... 8 days after the 50 mile Ultra , 1 day after a 3.5 hr MTB race , was a very windy day , I'm still heavy , no speed work preparation , just a week of recovery and a 2 mile pre-race warm up.... I ran a 6:34 pace or vdot 48.7 for the 5k vs. a 6:15 pace or vdot 51.6 at the very same race last year.... So much slower , BUT I feel really good about it and have full confidence full speed will come back very quickly.... Below is a progression of 5k tests from last year and as you can see I am right where I was at he beginning of DEC/Jan....
Dec 13 - 6:33 vdot 48.8
Jan- 14 6:28 vdot 49.5
Feb- 14 6:16 vdot 51.4
March14 - 6:15 vdot 51.6
Bike Focus Begins!
Enjoyed the recent run race reports and your podcast with Coach Patrick. Thank you for taking the time. How's Heather's stress fracture healing?
After all the run miles, how is your right side (glutes, ITB, hamstring)? With your issues being mainly on one side, have you had a body symmetry analysis done by a PT or chiropractor, especially one who specializes in Active Release Therapy (ART)? Just a thought. Do you feel you are coming out of the plateau?
Very interesting that your right side body issues went away with all that running, especially all the hills/elevation changes. Did you change your running shoes around the time the issues went away? Did the issues get better since retiring? Maybe the type of chair you sat in at work was the culprit. If not, I agree that the bike would be the next logical area to look at to try to prevent the issues from returning.
Stats for those 22 days..... 89hrs total , Rode 19 out of 22 days , 1090 miles biked with 67k elevation climbed , 86 miles run , 33k yds in the pool
Time Breakup... Bike 80% , Run 12% , Swim 8%
Last 3 Days as part of the Tallo/Satish Tucson Epic ..... Day 1- 9000yd swim, 75 mile bike..... Day 2 - 152 mile bike .... Day 3 - 26 mile run
Most of this was done at lower than IM intensity... I ate/slept a lot... Felt pretty good for the entire focus with one exception on a 106 mile ride with Dave I completely came apart, had a lot of negative thoughts , but snapped back after an easy day...
My thoughts? well its been different and fun.... I'd do it again.... Will it help my racing this season? No idea yet... There is no doubt I have built a very durable long distance engine.... There is also no doubt it has come at a cost to some of my top end speed/power.... We shall see...
Going forward- 1 complete full day OFF....more food/more sleep...introducing a more balanced w/intensity training over the next 2.5 weeks , almost a week of travel back to NH with ZERO training .... Then the traditional 12 week Advanced EN plan build to IMLP....