Compu-trainer v. Wahoo Kicker

Eric DePoto

Okay so I m looking at which is the better one to own. I have access to own either one but want to know th pros and cons to each one. Thanks for your input ahead of time!

GMAN 19030

KICKR owner since the day it came out.  Came close to buying a CT a couple of years ago.  Tried out a friend's a couple of times.

Structurally they are both built like a tank.  Both very well built.  Obviously the CT has been out for many years and the KICKR for less than two years.

I much prefer the KICKR's direct mount.  No need to fart around with swapping out wheels or pumping tires or resistance knobs and all that.

There has been a lot of discussion on ST about the KICKR accuracy and/or drift when compared to other power meters.  I think a lot of that is the very vocal minority.  When I tested it against a PM I found it to be within a couple of percent.  From what I understand the CT had a bunch of issues early on as well.  Wahoo's customer service is very good and they will get it straightened out... for those that are having issues.  I think much of the issues arise from not having the KICKR properly calibrated and zeroed.  I was getting numbers way off from my Quarq until I learned how to properly calibrate and zero the KICKR and then the numbers were very close.

What's not remotely comparable between the two is the technology and software.  The KICKR is like having a Xbox One or a PS4.  It runs on iPads, iPhones, Androids, Macs, etc.  It's the latest and greatest and it's open source which means the sky is the limit when it comes to software.  The CT is like having a Nintendo 64.  Which is to say it was pretty freakin' awesome in 1997.

In the end they'll both do the same thing.  One just does it easier, prettier, and cheaper.

bgranger

I've been using a CT since Oct '14. The software that comes with the unit is pretty decent, but I recently added PerfPro ($99), which has many more options. I use PerfPro to program in power driven workouts. I found PerfPro on a review of training software. http://www.dcrainmaker.com/2014/11/winter-trainer-depth.html They also have a review of trainers on the site.

The price of CT is coming down. I found mine on Ebay, brand new in the box for $1200. Right before Christmas, I saw one on Ebay for $950.

In my opinion, the only downside to CT is the need to run everything in MS Windows. I have a Mac, so I'm using Parallels to run Windows in a virtual machine. I would rather run everything directly in IOS. That would be an advantage of Kickr.

GMAN 19030

Retail price of the base CT package is still over $1600 but as you mentioned you can easily find them for $1200-$1400. I would venture a guess that CT saw their market share drop precipitously after the KICKR was released. Like I said... prettier, easier, and cheaper.

I do wonder if RacerMate has a strategy going forward or if they're going to rest on their laurels. The "Gold Standard" only gets them so far. Ask SRM how that's worked out for them the last few years. Overpriced and technologically inferior eventually catches up.

Al Truscott

Eric - I've had a CompuTrainer since 2007, and I've been WAITING for it to crump so I could get a Kickr. That happened on Saturday. The CT connections started going on the fritz, two hours later I was at REI getting their display model (online sites have it listed as backorder, no other stores in the Seattle area had one) into my car. I used it yesterday for the first workout.

Here are the reasons to get the KICKR over the CT (remember, coming from one who's used the CT for 7 years, and the KICKR for one day):

• Price - 30% less
• Ease of use. It took me oh, maybe six months, to figure out how to use the CT effectively. It took me ten minutes to get the KICKR up and running an FTP interval workout.
• Wireless. The reason my CT died was due to its  use of wires, wires, wires to communicate from flywheel/resistence to head unit to computer. The connections loosen, the wires fray, etc. Over the course of seven years, I went thru at least 4 different wires, got my head unit connections repaired once to the tune of $250, and repaired the power transformer once myself. KICKR, OTOH, uses Bluetooth and ANT+ to communicate, and can do both simultaneously, sending BT to my iPad, and ANT+ to my Joule head unit!
• Open design of the KICKR software, meaning lots of 3rd party apps are/will become available to aid in its use. CT is a to harder to sync up with other systems.
• CT is run out of a hole in the wall in Seattle, by a couple of engineers who were innovative about 20 years ago, but have not upgraded their systems since then. It looks like something out of the MS DOS era, only working with Windows PCs. KICKR connects to iOS, Android, and both Mac and PCs.
• KICKR does not use the rear wheel. Since I do my winter training on my TT bike, this saves both the rear hub and tire wear.
• While CT has a lot of bells and whistles, like Spinscan for R/L power differences, the "metal man" to race against the clock or your previous self, race course videos, etc, etc, I found that I did not end up using any of them I have the CDA, AZ, and Kona videos, and only used them twice - never even put in the Kona video. If you do want that kind of stuff, KICKR will use the Kimomap app to provide it.

The ONLY positive I see in the CT over the KICKR, is: it weighs less, so it's easier to move around as I set up my system on the upstairs deck.

If you want a REALLY cheap CT, I'll let mine go for the cost of shipping/handling to anyone who is willing to repair the internal connections (mini plug into the head unit) which is currently working only intermittently.

bgranger

Ebay has several used CT available. The red models are the newest frames.

http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2050601.m570.l2632.R2.TR2.TRC1.A0.H0.Xcomputrai&_nkw=computrainer&_sacat=7294

robin sarner

I think there are a few discussions within Endurance Nation about this.

My guess is that that Kickr is a lot more accurate than the Computrainer.      hot versus cold wheels.   how tight you make the tire friction.   goofy calibraction protocol for the Computrainer.    etc.                               I have not experienced the accuracy issues that Bob notes some others may be having.

If it was me talking to myself, I would tell myself to please NOT get a Computrainer.        What a mess to get going and use.      Life has been beautiful since I switched to the Kickr.   

And I have spent many many many hours on both.

Paul Hough

DC Rainmaker says the Kickr and Powerbeam Pro are the best two trainers out there with Kickr having the edge. He doesn't even recommend the CT. I've had my PowerBeam Pro over 3 yrs now and will upgrade to the Kickr if it ever dies.

Alan Brown

Here is the link to dcrainmaker's recent review:

 

http://www.dcrainmaker.com/2014/11/2014-winter-trainer-recommendations.html 

gilliatt

I've been a computrainer user since 2003. I do like it. However the computrainer you can buy now vs the one I bought years ago isn't that much different. If I were in the market I would look at something like a kickr. I'm pretty much stuck with my CT. Though I did buy a cycleops fluid 2 trainer for work.

bgranger

Al - Now that you have some miles on the KICKR and a long history with CT, what is your assessment on the KICKR?

Al Truscott

Posted By Bill Granger on 02 Mar 2015 06:54 AM


Al - Now that you have some miles on the KICKR and a long history with CT, what is your assessment on the KICKR?

I've been using the Kickr 3x/week for a couple of months now. I have little to add to my previous post from Dec 29. I did experience a difference of 238:205 K vs CT in FTP measurement (212 on the PowerTap when using the CT). Having used a number of power meters over the years, I find this to be a meaningless difference; all power meters are unique and will show different #s for the same effort by the same person. The key is consistency. I do not have an direct way to assess the Kickr's consistency, as I do not have a crank based PM, only hub based. So I can only use indirect means to assess this: HR and RPE. Since I use the Kickr exclusively via the ERG mode, where the resistance is fixed, no matter what gear I choose, I think I would notice if "225 watts" on Tuesday were significantly different than "225 watts" on Thursday.

The only glitch I notice is about 1-2 x per workout, randomly, there is a sudden momentary (1-2 sec) spike in the resistance both in feel and as measured by TrainerRoad.

I routinely calibrate the Kickr after about 15 minutes of warm up, which literally warms the machine from ambient air temp to about 21-22C.

I haven't used anything except TrainerRoad yet. Come Spring/Summer, when I will drop TrainerRoad to save money, but may still want to do a weekly interval workout, I will have to find a means to set the resistance. I haven't looked into that yet. And the durability of the machine is of course yet to be tested; for me, that will be measured in years, possibly over the remaining years of my athletic career.

Matt A recently posted he took his Kickr back, not liking the "feel" of the machine. I must have lower standards, as I don't pay much attention to how a trainer feels, in particular, whether it has a "road-like" feel. All trainers feel smoother than all roads, IMO, so I don't really know what people are talking about when they compare the "feel" of trainers. I don't expect a trainer to be "realistic" anymore than I expect a pool to be like a lake or the ocean, or a treadmill to be like running outside. Yeah, some pools are choppier than others, and some treadmills seem flimsier than others, but that's low on my list of criteria for using "indoor" training.

Bottom line, am I glad I made the switch: Yes. Repairing the CT would have cost minimum $250, for the second time in seven years; Far easier to set up; less wear and tear on my TT bike, which I use on the trainer; and it feels like I'm in the second decade of the 21st century, instead of the '90s - less temporal dissonance?

John Henault

Al - As an aside. If you have an iPad or iPhone, you can control the Kickr through the Wahoo app. If you have one of the newer aforementioned devices, you can use BTLE to connect, but if you have an older one without BTLE, you will need an Ant+ dongle. I have been controlling the Kickr for the Get Faster workouts with the iPhone and it is easy. The only downsides are that you need to manually adjust the resistance for every lap/interval and do not have the little line to follow like you do in TR.

robin sarner

regarding accuracy.  my personal experience.

my Quarq reads about  zero to five watts higher than the kickr.       consistent with where the power is measured.       power lost to drivetrain losses.

this weekend.      i did three one hour segments.    measured NP on Wahoo app from the Kickr and on my Garmin 500 from the Quarq.   first hour, quarq 3 watts higher.   second hour. quarq 1 watt higher.    third hour.     the same.

John Henault

Robin - Have you done any calibrations of the Kickr that are the subject of various ST threads, or was it that close to the Quarq out of the box? Also, what model Quarq do you have? I typically find about a 15% difference between my Kickr and Quarq at higher watts (FTP and VO2 sessions), but that difference narrows at lower watts. Regardless of the difference, I do love the Kickr!

Al Truscott

Posted By John Henault on 02 Mar 2015 11:49 AM


Al - As an aside. If you have an iPad or iPhone, you can control the Kickr through the Wahoo app. If you have one of the newer aforementioned devices, you can use BTLE to connect, but if you have an older one without BTLE, you will need an Ant+ dongle. I have been controlling the Kickr for the Get Faster workouts with the iPhone and it is easy. The only downsides are that you need to manually adjust the resistance for every lap/interval and do not have the little line to follow like you do in TR.

I started searching for alternatives to Trainer Road to control the resistance. I found iMobile Intervals, for $6, for iPhone/iPad. I've got both a Wahoo Ant+ dongle and built in Bluetooth in my latest gen iPad. The workout creator is a bit more rigid than TR, e.g. does not allow for any variability in the resistance during a given interval. But it's cheap, and should be OK for the 5-10 workouts I do between May and October when I let my TR subscription lapse to save $40/year. I'll give it a try tomorrow, and report back if there are any quirks.

robin sarner

Al just use the Wahoo Fitness app.     easy to use erg mode and key in power level changes as needed.

John.        I have not messed with the various electrical or mechanical calibration weirdnesses.      regardless of power levels, mine seems to jive well with the Quarq.    my latest Quarq is about 1.5 years old.     so one of the new generation. 

Al Truscott

Posted By robin sarner on 04 Mar 2015 08:41 AM

Al just use the Wahoo Fitness app.     easy to use erg mode and key in power level changes as needed. 

Theoretically true, but (a) I don't have a smartphone, so I'm using a Mac or iPad, placed on a stool in front of the front wheel. It's impossible to reach this while locked in pedals AND (b) I don't have enough O2 in my brain in the middle of an interval set to operate the system even if I could reach it.

I've also found a FREE app called Maximum Trainer, operates only on a computer (mac or PC) via ANT+ stick, which allows pre-programing a workout to control the resistance. 

david ware

Also posted in a Quarq thread... Just purchased and started using the Kickr. Was riding my bike on a Computrainer. Have a Quarq on the bike. Had Quarq recalibrated at Quarq with Tuneup. Changed the calibration from ~-650 to -125. Previously when I rode the CT would register about 15W less than the Quarq. Last night did the first ride with the new set up and Kickr is reading about 15W higher than the Quarq. Not sure which, if anything, is correct. Short of a new test is there any way to try to recalibrate so things match. Otherwise, all of my old data (years worth) is now useless...

Al Truscott

@David...that sounds about right, a 30 watt boost in FTP on the Kickr compared to CT is what I saw.

Why do you feel your old data is now "worthless"? Your Quarq generated #s are probably still consistent. Or if you switch to the Kickr #, why would this be any different than other times your FTP has changed. Most data analytic systems eg TrainingPeaks have a means to accommodate that.

GMAN 19030

Posted By david ware on 07 Apr 2015 03:33 PM


Also posted in a Quarq thread... Just purchased and started using the Kickr. Was riding my bike on a Computrainer. Have a Quarq on the bike. Had Quarq recalibrated at Quarq with Tuneup. Changed the calibration from ~-650 to -125. Previously when I rode the CT would register about 15W less than the Quarq. Last night did the first ride with the new set up and Kickr is reading about 15W higher than the Quarq. Not sure which, if anything, is correct. Short of a new test is there any way to try to recalibrate so things match. Otherwise, all of my old data (years worth) is now useless...

David and Al,

Been a KICKR user since it was first released in early-2013.

Now a lot of the problem is users not doing a proper spindown to zero/calibrate the KICKR.  Are you doing a proper spindown?  Ride for about 15 minutes to get the thing warmed up and then do the spindown using the Wahoo app.  You won't have to do another spindown until the KICKR is either updated or power cycled.  My KICKR was reading 10% high until I did a proper spindown, then it was within 2%.

There are many threads on ST that talk about the potential inaccuracy and drift of the KICKR.  There's almost 1000 replies to the one main thread about it.  For some people there's no issue, for others there's some issue (let's say 5% off), for others the KICKR is way outside an acceptable +/- (10% or more).  It "seems" the newer models have more of a problem than the first batch of KICKRs released in 2013.  If there's an issue, it's generally the KICKR reading higher than another power meter.

Wahoo had a not-for-public beta that allowed for the KICKR to use another power meter to get the power numbers.  Of course, the beta got leaked somehow and people started using it.  This is the main thread on ST about that and turned into the main thread about KICKR inaccuracy: http://forum.slowtwitch.com/cgi-bin...st=5396505 .  There were several (probably 10 to 20) smaller threads about KICKR inaccuracy but that thread had the most substance to it.  Feel free to search ST for others.

Wahoo was eerily silent on ST about this, despite having a couple of Wahoo reps that normally posted on ST.  That was until two days ago when one of Wahoo's reps finally chimed in (see posts in that linked thread from April 7th).  They have been working on a fix.  Not sure why they remained silent for many months because that just fueled the fire, IMO.

This is what was posted by the Wahoo rep:

OK, First we just wanted to say sorry for being a little quiet in here we had a lot of stuff in the works and attacking KICKR firmware from many different angles at the moment. We have been running a lot of closed beta testing and 100's of hours of robot testing, we really wanted to wait until we had the full picture before letting everyone here know. 



Below are some details on our public (slowtwitch) beta of our new firmware. You can either try it now or wait a couple days until we push it live. 



We understand that the most important factor for people using power meters outside is to have consistency. The ability for KICKR to be driven from a 3rd party power meter should solve this, just keep in mind that zeroing those power meters as you warm up is critical to getting accurate reported power. When riding outside, a lot of power meters might auto zero when coasting or pedalling backwards, since you don't normally coast indoors make sure you follow your manufacturer's recommendation for zeroing. Note: some power meters do have temperature compensation and don't require zeroing in the same way, ie Stages. 



We would love for you to try out the new firmware and give us feedback. Initially it would be great if you could just update the firmware, do a spin down and compare the results to your power meter, ie don't link you power meter to the KICKR, we would love to hear how the raw numbers look. 





What’s in the new firmware? 



a) Applied temperature compensation to the power from the friction (1), this friction decreases as the KICKR warms up. We used thousands of spindown results from users around the world to help tweak this formula. 

b) Updated our spindown calculations based on 100s of hours of dyno (robot) testing. We found particularly at the fringes, high and low spindown times we had room for improvement. 

c) Added the ability to source power reading from a 3rd party power meter. This will allow the 3rd party power meter to essentially drive the KICKR's brake. 



In our initial roll out we have seen improved results for users just from a) and b) 



Getting KICKR Firmware v1.3.32 (will be 1.4.0 at release) 





Currently you need the iOS Wahoo Fitness app to link (c) a 3rd party power meter, although once set you can go use the KICKR in another app. (until you power cycle the KICKR) 



- Download the Wahoo Fitness app (iOS) 

- Connect to the KICKR (Sensors -> KICKR) 

- Once connected tap the KICKR icon 6 times, it should show a list of beta firmware 

- Select v1.3.32, the password is "publicbeta" 





Configuring 3rd Party Power control 





- You will need to know the ANT+ ID of the 3rd Party Power meter 

- Connect to the KICKR (Sensors -> KICKR) 

- Once connected, if you have the correct firmware you will see 3 new options. 

1. ERG Mode Speed simulation (virtual speed @ 0% grade when using ERG) 

2. Cadence from ANT+ (steal your cadence from a nearby sensor - automatic if you use 3 below) 

3. Control w/ ANT+ Power Meter 

- Turn on Control w/ ANT+ Power Meter, you will see a new field 

- Enter your ANT+ Power meter ID. 

Here is a video of the setup, https://www.dropbox.com/...g30pi/Setup.mov?dl=0 

NOTE: If you only see 1, but not 2 and 3 then please contact our support. 

You can now start a workout, the Power icon should now have 2 arrows around in a circle (seen in the video), This icon will turn green when the KICKR is feeding power from your power meter. 



NOTE: iPhone 4S and ipad users will still see the old red dot on the power page, this is just a bug and will always be red. The new icon indicates the 3rd party power meter status. 





3rd Party Apps 





Over the next month we will give access to 3rd parties to set the ANT+ ID information, while PerfPro and now TrainerRoad have a version of the power matching we think all users will benefit from the latest firmware. 

If you have any questions, let us know and we will do our best to answer anything here. If anyone wants to speak to us directly, just email support@wahoofitness.com and we will keep an eye out for questions. 



Thanks 

The Wahoo Team 

GMAN 19030

Posted By david ware on 07 Apr 2015 03:33 PM


Otherwise, all of my old data (years worth) is now useless...

Al tackled this already but that's not at all true.

david ware

Update: I put Bike with Quarq back on CT. After the factory recalibration it nowreads about 20+/- higher than CT versus 10-15 previously. Then put bike in K. It read about 20 low. (Rode Elements of Style for comparison- one section for example had CT @ 232, Q @ 255; then K @ 232 and Q @ 210.). Then left bike on K and rode 5 mins @ 265 as set by K. Q was at 243, so relatively consistent but the W were all over the place and varied by over 100w with a big spike that I felt about 4' in (similar to what Al saw.) I can raise the personal setting to try and get the base re established but I am concerned about the variability...

GMAN 19030

You read my long post, right?

david ware

@Bob: I did and that addressed the W differences. I did my ride last night and saw your post this morning. I will look into that. However, it does not address the wild fluctuation of watts seen on TR while riding erg mode at a set W on K, or the huge spike that I could feel that occured?

GMAN 19030

You can set TR to smooth the wattage. Kind of like the Garmins you can set it to 3 sec or 5 sec or 10 sec. That might help.

david ware

Wouldn't it be the same for CT as K? CT is very stable on TR and K is not.

david ware

Also, would make short intervals appear totally wrong...

david ware

@Scott: Have adjusted the profile on TR to bring the Quarq data more in line with my history. There appears to be about a 20W difference with K higher than Q. I am satisfied with that and know the adjustment. The numbers still fluctuate considerably and even on long consistent TR intervals, the "actual" TR is alway less than the target, i.e. 10 minutes that should have been 200W will end up as 192 (and then 172 on Q.) Never had that issue with CT. It was a real problem yesterday when I rode "Violator" from Sufferfest and could not ever come close to the 5", 10" or 15" intervals. On the 5" the target was 513 and I was averaging about 335; on the 10" the target was 459 and I was in the 390s, and on the 15" the target was 418 and again I was only in the 390s. I tried changing to Standard setting and resistance setting and neither worked. I did the same ride on CT in January. I was short on the 5" 350s v. 458(probably due to the lag), but for 10" was pretty much right on the number or often in excess (that never happens with K) and for the 15" I was always over, probably because of going a little too hard the first few seconds and then drifting back down. Have you seen anything on this. If this remains the case than really short intervals are almost worthless and even for the long I do not know how to adjust for that 8W? Thanks for your thoughts...

robin sarner

fyi all.

Bob mentioned Wahoo providing a beta program where you could use the Quarq data to drive the Kickr. 

A regular firmware update was offered through the Wahoo Fitness app this week.       I think, but not sure, that this allows using the Quarq data.

regardless, my Wahoo power about equals my Quarq power.    Quarq occassional reads 0-5 watts higher.        maybe i was lucky becuase i was an earlier buyer.

david ware

In my case I want the K to be the "road" I.e. Thru TR and control the ride, then using the Q to measure and record. My problem occurs when K is not responding or reacting correctly.