time cost of no flip turns
Anyone have any thoughts on the time cost of not flip turning during workouts? I'm thinking that there's gotta be some fraction of a second lost every time I put my hand on the wall, pull my feet to it, and push off again. Maybe 0.5 sec? Too high?
If there's 3 turns in every 100, it doesn't matter that much, only a 1.5s difference.
But, in a 1000 yard T-pace set, there's 38 flip turns. At 0.5 sec gained per flip turn, that would be a 19 second difference?
Thoughts? Crazy thing is that I used to flip turn (though never well), and now I'm having a really hard time convincing myself to do them.
Mike
PS. yes, I know I'm overthinking this, yes I know it doesn't matter, and no, I don't know how to type in a way that communicates a lack of seriousness 
Comments
There's definitely a loss. I don't have a formula but I know from what I experience at masters. I do open turns and when I come up to the wall with someone in the next lane who does a flip they are gone. I do pretty efficient open turns too. It would have to be several seconds+ per turn. I keep saying this is the year that I will learn flip turns!
I never have done them and I have 2 reasons why, 1st I get extremely dizzy doing them and second I have never done one in a race so I say don't sweat it.
With that said, time in pool doing flip turns or touch turns don't really matter. you get a prettier number the faster you go but unless your good at doing them in a lake/ocean they wont matter
true swimmers (Purebreeds?) can flip amazingly well, because they practice them because they do them in a race. Remember most of our races are outdoor where being a skilled flipturner doesn't help
I'm sure there is a small time advantage as well, but for me it was the other benefits that helped more...plus a little extra confidence in the water always goes a long way.
Just suck it up one day and decide you will do all flip turns every lap going forward. After a week of screwing them up, getting a little dizzy, and sucking water in through your nose you will get the hang of it and never have to think about it again.
Good points Jason - the people in the lane next to me are the folks who swam in high school and college! They're always smoking me at the wall.
Doing flipturns is just one of those skills all triathletes should learn because it takes you another step away from triathlete geekdom...like riding with no hands on the bike, bunnyhopping, etc. It's also just more efficient. When I see you peeps do your open turns, I think of all the momentum you have to stop with your hand, pull your feet up, push off the wall, etc. Ugg...that's a lot of work! If you do it right a flip turn takes almost zero energy.
Don't ask me to teach you though. I've been doing them for so long it just happens. I can't really tell you how or what I do...it just happens
Yeah, I'm starting to feel like I'm going to just pick a day for no more open turns.
I got away from it when I was swimming with really poor balance a couple of years ago (before the EN swim e-book), and found that the difference between an extra breath at the wall, vs holding my breath for an extra couple of seconds under water on a flip turn, made a huge difference in my ability to keep going.
Now that I'm swimming with better balance in the water, and breathing comfortably again, maybe it's time!
Mike
and Rich, I've ridden bikes with no hands for years (from back in the days when I wanted to do BMX stunts), but if I take my hands off on my tri bike and sit up, she gets the "shimmy-shimmy-shake" something fierce! It's really spooked me.
Vince
Testing for workout purposes should be done wearing the same gear and doing the same kind of turns that you're going to do the workouts; same for turns. If I wear a drag suit instead of a Speedo LZR, all it means is that all my workouts are effectively a few percent longer. Right?
Flip turns save tons of time. Like Matt, if you come into the wall at the same speed as the guy next door, and you flip and he doesn't, you will be gone. Once you get into the groove of flip turns, they add a nice fluidity.
No doubt flip turns look a lot cooler, but if you ask me...a triathlete who does not come from a real swimming background--well, let's just say they their flip turns scream tri geek almost as loud as the open turns.
Even though we may feel super cool, from above it often looks like a "bloop" over rather than a "bam" like the real swimmers do. It's all good. 
I just don't want mine on video tape. 
Yeah, I can ride no hands on my tri bike (80+ deg) but it's certainly more deliberate and I'm not riding around the block with no hands, like I can on the road bike. Gotta slide way back, lean back, and keep pedaling for sure.
hehe its fun arguing over a few seconds...
btw i cant ride with no hands... perhaps because im going so fast im afraid the wind from my speed will rip my arms off.. scary
Gotta learn to do flip turns if you are going to swim if for no other reason that for what Rich said. Sometimes they might actually be slower, especially when you are sucky at them or miss one badly. When doing slip turns you have to pay much more attention to breathing and what you are doing. With open turns you really do get a break/chance to breathe at the wall every time. While I get the whole "we do not do flip turns while racing thing" we also do not take break every 25 yards while racing either.
I think there is real value to being able to swim with swimmers, bike with roadies and run with people without a) wearing M Dot logo gear; b) behaving in such a manner that is just as obvious as wearing M Dot logo gear.
You really do not have to ask someone in the lane next to you who is swimming 3000 yards making open turns if they are training for an IM do you?
As for Mike, start with only flipping while warming up etc and go from there. No reason to try to do flip turns really fast until you can do them without thinking about them.
I think you mean "run with people who aren't wearing compression socks"
Good suggestion. I think that part of my problem is that I tend to breathe every 4 hand entries, which throws me off as I approach a wall, if I'm not about to breathe. May have to shift to every 2 hand entries as I get close to make sure I get that last breath and don't panic.
Miek
This issue came up recently for myself at the Grizzly Triathlon. I was in a heat too fast for me, and my plan of drafting all the other swimmers in my lane worked great until the turns. They all flipped turned while I open turned and every time I was loosing a couple of feet on them. Its probably more of an issue of my sucking as turning, but thats what happened to me.
Out of racing, I pretty much flip turn 99% of the time in the pool. Just started doing it because everyone else at the pool was. Now I enjoy it. Just feels much more fluid and elegant than open turning. I dont think it really makes a time difference, but it feels better to me. After the race, I took a look at this video, which helped me:
www.youtube.com/watch
Then A guy helping me swim suggested I do it for the breathing and 25yd "break" mentioned above and it has made a huge difference in my breathing and overall performance in a few weeks. But I am still a SLOW swimmer so I have no room to give anyone advice haha!
There is nothing wrong with running with compression socks
The runners I have met and run with don't mind at all. I told them I am a triathlete and want to get faster and run with guys like them and they have been more then willing to have me join in. In fact after I started running with more and more of the "runners" admited that they have done or want to do triathlons as well.
I know this wan't you point Mike, but for the longest time I didn't go run with runners because I was a triathlete. Now that I finally did it, I'm glad I did and wish I would have years ago.
I think everything about running in compression socks is wrong...but then I think that wearing them afterward is great and will admit that I am wearing some as I type this.
Isn't that the real reason for the M Dot tats though? So when you are at the pool everyone will know that you are a triathlete? I guess that is in case they could not figure it out from the IM swim cap, huge goggles, huge mesh bag with fins, pull buoy, kick board, Tri related water bottles, swim workouts for triathlon in a binder open on the deck etc.
But really, the best way to pick out a tri person at the pool [aside from the aforementioned open turns] is that they are keeping track of lap times using their watch rather than the HUGE pace clock on the wall about 6 feet away...
I SAY ALL OF THIS ENTIRELY TONGUE AND CHEEK AND DO NOT MEAN TO OFFEND ANYONE
In the pool - be a swimmer gasp learn all four strokes
At the track - be a runner
on the road - be a roadie/TT
I see this at masters too. There will be a lane full of people all swimming on the same interval, watching the HUGE clock for the sendoff, and the 4th person in line is oblivious looking at their watch. They often have Seal Masks on too.
Dammit, you mean we're not special !?!
Mike
Like Chris said nothing I said was meant to offend anyone, in fact I am guilty of just about everything mentioned in this thread at one time or another. Just ask Rich about my hairy legs and loose shorts at IMWI camp last year.
I might have to dig up the picture of that, Matt!
Im ahead of the curve. I just got BOTH the m-dot and compression socks tatooed on to save time with laundry.
@Greg: LMAO! I have been in search of the next tattoo.
One of the things I would like to be able to do to push my swimming to the next level is to be able to start swimming on the back of lane 1 @ Masters practice. I've gotten to a point over the last couple of seasons where my actual swim speed is fast enough that I have tried to hop into lane 1 a couple of times - except - everytime we hit the wall and I do an open turn, I lose the draft, and just like getting dropped from a group ride - the cord pops, and I'm off the back - miss the interval at the wall - completely anaerobic starting the next rep, etc., etc., etc... So I want to learn to do a good flip turn so I can swim in lane 1 and keep from getting dropped.
With that said, my flip turns are starting to get much more comfortable and "automatic" when I swim alone, even when I'm swimming at higher efforts - however, I am turning "the wrong way" for swimming in a counterclockwise pace line at Masters practice - i.e. when I open up turning off the wall, I am opening up into the on-coming swimmers beind me rather than opening up away from them. I think this is one of those things kind of like being right or left handed, or right or left footed - your body/brain just has a naturally engrained default direction that it wants to do this.
Has anyone else struggled with this same challenge, and if so, were you able to teach yourself through practice how to open up the other way? Whenever I try to go the other way, it is a trainwreck...
Yep, I wouldn't consider this a "may have to", it's a must for flip turns. You've gotta time the breath. I love it when the turn comes at the right time but it often doesn't, so I just break from my every-3 and take a pre-turn breath. No biggie.
There's a wrong way to turn??? First I've heard of this! If you're causing trouble in your lane it's because of how you're pushing off the wall, not the direction in which you're turning. I wouldn't try to retrain yourself to flip to the left instead of the right - instead I'd work on a straight push off. Also, most swimmers compensate by drifting to the left side of the lane just before they flip. If the people in your lane are putting enough distance (e.g., 5 seconds) between each swimmer you have plenty of room to scoot over before flipping. If someone is giving you s*&^ for turning "the wrong way" in practice, send 'em my way and I'll, you know, do something bad with a pull buoy, er, something.