Ok, I am at the mind-numbing gear ratio decision. I am seeing numbers in this forum that I do not quite understand. I bought my Quarq from Coach R in 2014. At that time he sent me a nice article on the compact, strongly encouraging me to go with the compact, which made sense to me at the time:
So, I have been running a 50/34 Riken (170mm) with a 11-28 with good, but not great, outcomes which I attribute to many other things. (I changed to that cassette after getting pounded at StG with the stock 11-25).
But now I see Rich going 53, possibly 54, JB and Scott at 53. Did I miss an important philosophical reckoning in gear ratios? This matters as I am considering going with P1 pedals since my roadie does not have pow. However, Rachel did offer to swap out the BB to a GXP so I could just move my compact Quarq to the Ventum and go back to my happy gear ratio ignorance...
Lastly, did you all get your rings from Ventum or did you make these changes after the fact?
Things (namely technology) have changed a bit. That said, I think a compact crank still is the best overall choice for most triathletes for all the reasons mentioned in the link you provided. It limits the gaps between gears and gives you ample gearing for courses with lots of climbing like IMWI which was the case study for the conversation.
So..what's changed. Well, one thing is that mid-compact cranks have become much more commonly available. This allows you to 'hedge' by still having good climbing options (2 tooth increase to 36 on the small ring vs. jumping all the way to a 39...5 tooth gap). In addition to that, in the past, it was either compact or standard. The bolt diameters were different so you couldn't swap rings. The new Shimano cranksets have the same bolt diameters so you can swap out the rings however you like (as long as the gap between the biggest and smallest is less than or equal to 16). For example, I got standard cranks (53/39) on my Ventum and for less than $30 I swapped out the 39 for a 36. If I wanted to I could get a 50 and 34 ring and have a compact setup with the same crank arms. The 53/36 setup gives me great range on the top end and the low end. Net, changing front rings, while still more expensive than a cassette, is now feasible and less expensive than replacing a crank which was the only prior option.
Lastly, as you reach and exceed the 4 w/kg threshold you see higher speeds and have the ability to push more watts at the same IF to climb hills. At that point the added benefit of a 53 tooth big ring could be meaningful on courses with sections that have higher sustained speeds.
So, I'd ask yourself the question of why you think you haven't had great outcomes. If you think it's because you were pushing too hard in the bike I would not consider moving to bigger rings up front.
Lastly, given your PM is a 110 BCD (only compatible with compact or mid-compact) you won't have the option to change that without a wholesale crank change. Given the flexibility inherent in the new Shimano cranks I'd encourage you to get the Shimano setup with either compact or mid-compact cranks, sell your Quarq, and buy a set of P1s.
That is very helpful JB. My best comp this year yielded a 3.5W/kg. At IMC, assuming best bike split can estimate your ideal performance, I underperformed to my potential for two reasons is my guess - on the 30 mile of flats, I held aero for about 85% of it and could not hold my NP, neither of which were related to gear ratio. For sure I ran out of gears on two major downhills (top speed was 49mph, so no complaints about that), and I do run out of gears on the big climbs even with the 28. All in all, I think I should stay put with the compact until I can control my weight better and get closer to that magic 4.
So, with all of this flexibility, anybody here making race-specific changes? I have done CdA and Canada, both very hilly, but AZ coming up - I assume for the speedsters that you would want a different set up for these big differences.
For those of you who are on the edge of buying a new bike and considering Ventum, I just want to take 2 minutes to reimphasize how Ventum Customer Service and Rachel are incredible. Wow! I am finalizing my bike spec and Rachel is so nice and helpful. Just a FYI!
More 11spd drive trains = can run a super compact up front + a bigger cassette in the rear but with the same or similar cadence gap issues as a former compact setup. So when I was 10spd I had 50/34 and raced IMWI'11 with a 26-11, I think. But last year I rode a super compact (52/36) and 28-11 on 11spd. This is the same setup I have on my road bike as well. I moved this setup over to the Ventum, rode this at LP, but have now moved to 53/36, 25-11 because Kona is a different course. The cadence gap I get with that 28-11 is a PITA on the flat, bike path flavor rides I've been doing in route to Kona so the 25-11 will fix that. d
W/kg: important to understand the w/kg of the guy giving gearing advice. A hilly course at >4.0w/kg is a very different experience than the same course at .5w/kg. </li>
In short, a compact or super compact cranks remains a good setup for nearly everyone but everyone should also have the knowledge of how/if/when to maybe adjust the gear to fit changing body comp and courses.
Gosh Coach Rich, I thought you were going to unveil an EN wrap for the Ventum.
Sorry, haven't had time to pimp it properly, will just slap on a few EN stickers...but I did get a bling black and red chain that Dino will unicornify for me next weekend!
Gosh Coach Rich, I thought you were going to unveil an EN wrap for the Ventum.
Sorry, haven't had time to pimp it properly, will just slap on a few EN stickers...but I did get a bling black and red chain that Dino will unicornify for me next weekend!
Gosh Coach Rich, I thought you were going to unveil an EN wrap for the Ventum.
Sorry, haven't had time to pimp it properly, will just slap on a few EN stickers...but I did get a bling black and red chain that Dino will unicornify for me next weekend!
Rich - you didn't ship your bike with TBT?
Nope. They wanted the bike by ~9/19, too soon for my tastes. I've gotten pretty good at breaking it down and putting it back together and between Joanne (FedEx outbound) and Sawiris (ship it back at his rates) it won't be too bad.
Gosh Coach Rich, I thought you were going to unveil an EN wrap for the Ventum.
Sorry, haven't had time to pimp it properly, will just slap on a few EN stickers...but I did get a bling black and red chain that Dino will unicornify for me next weekend!
Rich - you didn't ship your bike with TBT?
Nope. They wanted the bike by ~9/19, too soon for my tastes. I've gotten pretty good at breaking it down and putting it back together and between Joanne (FedEx outbound) and Sawiris (ship it back at his rates) it won't be too bad.
if needed, or for the rest of us without friends like yours, Compare rates to Bikeflights.com... typically 40-60% off of FedEx standard rates... Just make sure you insure it. I've had 2 damage claims with bikeflights, that were in FedEx handling and fortunately they were not on bikes or parts I cared about.
@Doug - I hit around 3.8+ w/kg this year and I was clearly riding LP in a very different way. with my 52/36 & 11/28 I did have to stand (without spiking watts) on some of the short steeper stuff and wasn't "spinning" as freely as I wanted, but there was a clear difference in how "hard" the hills weren't... gotta get back on the diet discipline and set up next year. for me, 4.0 is only a matter of truly getting down to the right race weight.
PSA: when packing the bike don't forget to pack the front fairing, said the guy who did just that. Need to hit a store for electrical tape to secure the junction box before my rides on the Chat course
So I got my fit tweaked yesterday and am awaiting my fitters recommendations of a 54 vs 56 since obviously, they don't stock or carry the line. So my question is this...what is the fee a shop would charge to put it together? I've never bought a bike that didn't come from a shop already assembled. And yes...I kinda feel like I'm cheating on them, but I know they can't compete with the deal, so there ya go.
Also, what as a non bike geek do I need to know/ask before pulling the trigger? I am planning on getting the Ultegra group with the Reynolds wheels and getting a compact crank as I have ridden that in all my races other than in IMFL. I really don't think I'm a strong enough climber to go with what the bike build is, but that won't cost me any more. I will get power tap 1 pedals for power as I used my rear zip 808 10 speed wheel since 2010.
Stupid question, but the Ui2 shifting is on the aero bars and base bar correct? That is my set up now and I won't have it any other way!
Can I say I'm getting a little excited about this??? I'M GETTING A LITTLE EXCITED ABOUT THIS!!!!
So I got my fit tweaked yesterday and am awaiting my fitters recommendations of a 54 vs 56 since obviously, they don't stock or carry the line. So my question is this...what is the fee a shop would charge to put it together? I've never bought a bike that didn't come from a shop already assembled. And yes...I kinda feel like I'm cheating on them, but I know they can't compete with the deal, so there ya go.
Also, what as a non bike geek do I need to know/ask before pulling the trigger? I am planning on getting the Ultegra group with the Reynolds wheels and getting a compact crank as I have ridden that in all my races other than in IMFL. I really don't think I'm a strong enough climber to go with what the bike build is, but that won't cost me any more. I will get power tap 1 pedals for power as I used my rear zip 808 10 speed wheel since 2010.
Stupid question, but the Ui2 shifting is on the aero bars and base bar correct? That is my set up now and I won't have it any other way!
Can I say I'm getting a little excited about this??? I'M GETTING A LITTLE EXCITED ABOUT THIS!!!!
UI2 is exactly the same from a functional standpoint.
Your bike shop will probably charge $100-200 depending on how complex. They make much more on service and accessories so if you are a good customer I'm sure they will be fine.
@ Trish. I am far from being an expert but can add a couple of extra tips! BTW, I share your excitement as I just placed my order and will receive the bike next Tuesday. Not sure if you plan on using/need the seat that comes with the bike. If not, you may get a little extra discount. I ordered a second water bottle,one black and one EN red (the coaches will like!) and took advantage of the discount. For the wheels, I am not sure which ones are the Reynolds. Note that the specs have recently changed. I went for the best value I thought I was getting (I picked the Edco) and will review my wardrobe of wheels to determine what I keep and what I sell. I use Power Tab hubs and already have 3 sets of wheels with hubs (training wheels, 80 mm carbon and a HED disk).
@ all future buyers hesitant on the size..... I was very hesitant on the frame size and Rachel was very helpful. I ended going for a bike fit prior to the final decision. I am 6ft and "proportionate"!!!! Based on my current bike measurements (2010 Trek SC size 58cm), I was fitting right in-between 54 and 56. The 54 allows more possibilities to go more aggressive in my aerobar position (whatever you expert would call that!). It might be not realist to plan for a more aggressive position (51 year old aging man) but I thought that my new "Ferrari" should be designed and built for racing, not aging!
Good luck Trish and don't worry! Think that Ventum will do anything to accommodate your needs and success!
Christmas arrived early! I can't believe that they ship them UPS with NO SIGNATURE required. I am almost done with the build. Sorry for not using all the right terms but I have absolutely no clue how to adjust the elbow pads forward or aft ( except the little and insufficient adjustment under the pads). Based on my current spec dimensions, I need to move the pads aft by about 1 1/4".
That's the same challenge I had. The only reach adjustability is the pads themselves. That's why I had to go with a different aerobar setup with more reach.
Assembled and tested! Still need to make fit adjustment. Notice the EN colors on the bike and on in the flowers behind! This picture could make the Ventum brochure!
@ Frederick - nice looking bike, what wheels are those? did you have them already?? btw, you need to read the rules (http://www.velominati.com/the-rules/) for proper bike pics... rule #26 & 40 particularly, always photo from chainring side of bike as well.
Finally pulled the trigger and my new baby is being made! YAY! I ended up with the Ultegra compact crank, and the Edco wheels.
Mad props to all the hand holding from Rachael at Ventum. After watching this thread, doing some reading and getting the fit, she walked me through my last few questions Friday. My first tri bike purchase was driven by price, and racing sprints (Felt S32 one year old model on sale) my second bike was a surprise birthday gift from my husband who was assisted by my coach (also a fitter) and local bike shop, the Felt B10 with di2 back in late 2010. This was my first purchase I've made with a little experience and being the decision maker! Thank you all for your very helpful input!
While I've been pretty spoiled riding Di2 for so long as well as zipps 404/808 I hope to use the investment as a WHIP to work very hard this off/out season and get a wee bit faster! Gotta make sure the engine is as strong as the rest of the machine!
@Trish - Congratulations. I hope you get as excited and happy as I have been.
@Scott - You are too funny or (scary anal)! I have been very busy everywhere and took a long time to acknowledge your guidance. I have actually saved the link and will soon find the time to read all the rules and re-take compliance pictures.
@All - Wisconsin weather has been challenging and I didn't want to take my Ventum out in the rain and cold. We finally got a nice day yesterday and went out for a 2 hour ride (after 1 hour good tempo run). I made some final adjustment to the fit. My reach was still 1.5 inch further than my current Trek SC. I noticed I could move the seat forward by 3/4 in (based on the horizontal distance to the ax of the crank and I moved the pads to the last possible hole. It may have been due to heavy drinking and no ride in the aero position since IMWI, but my arms/shoulders were totally uncomfortable and I needed to stand up many times. After 30 minutes and repositioning my elbow rearward, things got much better and can even say that we were starting to ride good "together"!!!!! The bike is very smooth, the DI2 is so nice. The one thing that I am not sure about is the straw. I try drinking through it before the ride and thought it was too hard and removed the straw cap (valve). I lost some of the water in the down/bumpy starting hills but it settled. Stupid I was to cut the straw so it fitted the handle bar "layout"; the straw is now too short!!!! I need to review the video and other forum treads.The bike is awesome. I am just not sure why the Ventum handle bars don't have more adjustability (forward/back PLUS tilting). I will go for a second visit with my bike fitter and will see what he says. Take care everyone
Hey friends - The official VentumZ deal has come in with a huge WHEEL UPGRADE - you still get our discount on the VentumZ and then get an additional wheel upgrade (WHICH IS NOT ALLOWED TO ANYONE ELSE OTHER THAN US) and on top of them allowing us to wheel upgrade on the VentumZ we get a discount on top of that which nobody else does.
This is a chance for EVERYONE looking to upgrade bikes to be in the VentumFamily - send me an email mariah@endurancenation.us if you're interested
For all of you that were in Kona when the Ventum-Z was announced, what is your opinion of that bike as compared to the Ventum-1?
Bang for the buck is huge. Aesthetically it's not quite as 'clean' as the Ventum One on the front end but aerodynamically this is pretty insignificant. Based on the deal we have it sure seems like something to consider.
Mark, I ended up going for the Ventum One (which I will be picking up tomorrow from my lbs!!!)
I already had a good bike with exposed brakes and Di2 cables, but wanted to make the leap to a much more aero set up and use the purchase as a whip to work really hard again on my cycling. My rig is six years old and a great bike, but the deal was too good to pass up. I'm hoping its a bit more slippery than my Felt B10 and inspires the work on my engine I need!
Spun on the new Ventum for the first time tonight - looks an feels good! I am curious though, any tips on filling the tank on the fly before riding past the trash bin coming out of the aid table? My first effort led to spilling water all over the floor. Seems like most have 1 bottle behind the seat instead of a BTA... seems like a small margin of error compared to my old bike (had a downtime bottle, a BTA, and capacity for 2 behind the seat).
Comments
http://members.endurancenation.us/Resources/Wiki/tabid/91/Default.aspx?topic=Compact+Cranks
So, I have been running a 50/34 Riken (170mm) with a 11-28 with good, but not great, outcomes which I attribute to many other things. (I changed to that cassette after getting pounded at StG with the stock 11-25).
But now I see Rich going 53, possibly 54, JB and Scott at 53. Did I miss an important philosophical reckoning in gear ratios? This matters as I am considering going with P1 pedals since my roadie does not have pow. However, Rachel did offer to swap out the BB to a GXP so I could just move my compact Quarq to the Ventum and go back to my happy gear ratio ignorance...
Lastly, did you all get your rings from Ventum or did you make these changes after the fact?
DS -
Things (namely technology) have changed a bit. That said, I think a compact crank still is the best overall choice for most triathletes for all the reasons mentioned in the link you provided. It limits the gaps between gears and gives you ample gearing for courses with lots of climbing like IMWI which was the case study for the conversation.
So..what's changed. Well, one thing is that mid-compact cranks have become much more commonly available. This allows you to 'hedge' by still having good climbing options (2 tooth increase to 36 on the small ring vs. jumping all the way to a 39...5 tooth gap). In addition to that, in the past, it was either compact or standard. The bolt diameters were different so you couldn't swap rings. The new Shimano cranksets have the same bolt diameters so you can swap out the rings however you like (as long as the gap between the biggest and smallest is less than or equal to 16). For example, I got standard cranks (53/39) on my Ventum and for less than $30 I swapped out the 39 for a 36. If I wanted to I could get a 50 and 34 ring and have a compact setup with the same crank arms. The 53/36 setup gives me great range on the top end and the low end. Net, changing front rings, while still more expensive than a cassette, is now feasible and less expensive than replacing a crank which was the only prior option.
Lastly, as you reach and exceed the 4 w/kg threshold you see higher speeds and have the ability to push more watts at the same IF to climb hills. At that point the added benefit of a 53 tooth big ring could be meaningful on courses with sections that have higher sustained speeds.
So, I'd ask yourself the question of why you think you haven't had great outcomes. If you think it's because you were pushing too hard in the bike I would not consider moving to bigger rings up front.
Lastly, given your PM is a 110 BCD (only compatible with compact or mid-compact) you won't have the option to change that without a wholesale crank change. Given the flexibility inherent in the new Shimano cranks I'd encourage you to get the Shimano setup with either compact or mid-compact cranks, sell your Quarq, and buy a set of P1s.
So, with all of this flexibility, anybody here making race-specific changes? I have done CdA and Canada, both very hilly, but AZ coming up - I assume for the speedsters that you would want a different set up for these big differences.
Thank you.
Doug,
What Jeremy said but the bigger items are likely:
In short, a compact or super compact cranks remains a good setup for nearly everyone but everyone should also have the knowledge of how/if/when to maybe adjust the gear to fit changing body comp and courses.
Sorry, haven't had time to pimp it properly, will just slap on a few EN stickers...but I did get a bling black and red chain that Dino will unicornify for me next weekend!
Rich - you didn't ship your bike with TBT?
Nope. They wanted the bike by ~9/19, too soon for my tastes. I've gotten pretty good at breaking it down and putting it back together and between Joanne (FedEx outbound) and Sawiris (ship it back at his rates) it won't be too bad.
if needed, or for the rest of us without friends like yours, Compare rates to Bikeflights.com... typically 40-60% off of FedEx standard rates... Just make sure you insure it. I've had 2 damage claims with bikeflights, that were in FedEx handling and fortunately they were not on bikes or parts I cared about.
#sanfordandson
Also, what as a non bike geek do I need to know/ask before pulling the trigger? I am planning on getting the Ultegra group with the Reynolds wheels and getting a compact crank as I have ridden that in all my races other than in IMFL. I really don't think I'm a strong enough climber to go with what the bike build is, but that won't cost me any more. I will get power tap 1 pedals for power as I used my rear zip 808 10 speed wheel since 2010.
Stupid question, but the Ui2 shifting is on the aero bars and base bar correct? That is my set up now and I won't have it any other way!
Can I say I'm getting a little excited about this??? I'M GETTING A LITTLE EXCITED ABOUT THIS!!!!
Also, what as a non bike geek do I need to know/ask before pulling the trigger? I am planning on getting the Ultegra group with the Reynolds wheels and getting a compact crank as I have ridden that in all my races other than in IMFL. I really don't think I'm a strong enough climber to go with what the bike build is, but that won't cost me any more. I will get power tap 1 pedals for power as I used my rear zip 808 10 speed wheel since 2010.
Stupid question, but the Ui2 shifting is on the aero bars and base bar correct? That is my set up now and I won't have it any other way!
Can I say I'm getting a little excited about this??? I'M GETTING A LITTLE EXCITED ABOUT THIS!!!!
Your bike shop will probably charge $100-200 depending on how complex. They make much more on service and accessories so if you are a good customer I'm sure they will be fine.
@ Trish. I am far from being an expert but can add a couple of extra tips! BTW, I share your excitement as I just placed my order and will receive the bike next Tuesday. Not sure if you plan on using/need the seat that comes with the bike. If not, you may get a little extra discount. I ordered a second water bottle,one black and one EN red (the coaches will like!) and took advantage of the discount. For the wheels, I am not sure which ones are the Reynolds. Note that the specs have recently changed. I went for the best value I thought I was getting (I picked the Edco) and will review my wardrobe of wheels to determine what I keep and what I sell. I use Power Tab hubs and already have 3 sets of wheels with hubs (training wheels, 80 mm carbon and a HED disk).
@ all future buyers hesitant on the size..... I was very hesitant on the frame size and Rachel was very helpful. I ended going for a bike fit prior to the final decision. I am 6ft and "proportionate"!!!! Based on my current bike measurements (2010 Trek SC size 58cm), I was fitting right in-between 54 and 56. The 54 allows more possibilities to go more aggressive in my aerobar position (whatever you expert would call that!). It might be not realist to plan for a more aggressive position (51 year old aging man) but I thought that my new "Ferrari" should be designed and built for racing, not aging!
Good luck Trish and don't worry! Think that Ventum will do anything to accommodate your needs and success!
Christmas arrived early! I can't believe that they ship them UPS with NO SIGNATURE required. I am almost done with the build. Sorry for not using all the right terms but I have absolutely no clue how to adjust the elbow pads forward or aft ( except the little and insufficient adjustment under the pads). Based on my current spec dimensions, I need to move the pads aft by about 1 1/4".
btw, you need to read the rules (http://www.velominati.com/the-rules/) for proper bike pics... rule #26 & 40 particularly, always photo from chainring side of bike as well.
The gauntlet has been thrown down in the PNW. I definitely want to take a look after you get it dialed in.
Mad props to all the hand holding from Rachael at Ventum. After watching this thread, doing some reading and getting the fit, she walked me through my last few questions Friday. My first tri bike purchase was driven by price, and racing sprints (Felt S32 one year old model on sale) my second bike was a surprise birthday gift from my husband who was assisted by my coach (also a fitter) and local bike shop, the Felt B10 with di2 back in late 2010. This was my first purchase I've made with a little experience and being the decision maker! Thank you all for your very helpful input!
While I've been pretty spoiled riding Di2 for so long as well as zipps 404/808 I hope to use the investment as a WHIP to work very hard this off/out season and get a wee bit faster! Gotta make sure the engine is as strong as the rest of the machine!
@Trish - Congratulations. I hope you get as excited and happy as I have been.
@Scott - You are too funny or (scary anal)! I have been very busy everywhere and took a long time to acknowledge your guidance. I have actually saved the link and will soon find the time to read all the rules and re-take compliance pictures.
@All - Wisconsin weather has been challenging and I didn't want to take my Ventum out in the rain and cold. We finally got a nice day yesterday and went out for a 2 hour ride (after 1 hour good tempo run). I made some final adjustment to the fit. My reach was still 1.5 inch further than my current Trek SC. I noticed I could move the seat forward by 3/4 in (based on the horizontal distance to the ax of the crank and I moved the pads to the last possible hole. It may have been due to heavy drinking and no ride in the aero position since IMWI, but my arms/shoulders were totally uncomfortable and I needed to stand up many times. After 30 minutes and repositioning my elbow rearward, things got much better and can even say that we were starting to ride good "together"!!!!! The bike is very smooth, the DI2 is so nice. The one thing that I am not sure about is the straw. I try drinking through it before the ride and thought it was too hard and removed the straw cap (valve). I lost some of the water in the down/bumpy starting hills but it settled. Stupid I was to cut the straw so it fitted the handle bar "layout"; the straw is now too short!!!! I need to review the video and other forum treads.The bike is awesome. I am just not sure why the Ventum handle bars don't have more adjustability (forward/back PLUS tilting). I will go for a second visit with my bike fitter and will see what he says. Take care everyone
This is a chance for EVERYONE looking to upgrade bikes to be in the VentumFamily - send me an email mariah@endurancenation.us if you're interested
Bang for the buck is huge. Aesthetically it's not quite as 'clean' as the Ventum One on the front end but aerodynamically this is pretty insignificant. Based on the deal we have it sure seems like something to consider.
I already had a good bike with exposed brakes and Di2 cables, but wanted to make the leap to a much more aero set up and use the purchase as a whip to work really hard again on my cycling. My rig is six years old and a great bike, but the deal was too good to pass up. I'm hoping its a bit more slippery than my Felt B10 and inspires the work on my engine I need!