2016/17 NOS Week 8 Bike Thread - Capture the Gains

Brian Hagan

Welcome to the November Outseason Week 8 bike thread.  Week 8 is test week and rest week.  Please listen to or watch this weeks video / podcast.  Coach Rich does a great job talking about why we test in week 8 and tips on pacing the test.

Last year I struggled with the mid season FTP tests.  The main issue is that I was chasing a target number, and I paced poorly.  I blew up in the first 5 minutes of the test and quit after 10.  I then saw a post in the forum from Mike Weinmann and found it very helpful.    In this example, the person he was addressing had an FTP of 172 from week one.  

He said "one thing I've done in past tests is to hold the implied wattage from my last FTP test for the first 5 minutes. For you, this would be ~179W. After 5 minutes, I try to increase the average watts for the lap by ~1 watt each minute for the final 10-15 minutes, which would put you at 194W for the 20' segment or an FTP of 184W. For the last 3-5 minutes, you can empty the tank and push the wattage without any mental limits. The risk with this approach is that it might be too conservative, but I've found that if I'm truly being conservative, I'll overshoot the 1 watt per minute target pretty easily and then I just push for a higher FTP. The benefit is that it's pretty hard to blow up (and risk a dreaded re-test) using this strategy."

Good luck everyone!  

Shaughn Simmons

Good luck bending those cranks this week team!

SS

Todd Bray

I need some advice.

My son was pretty sick over weekend and late yesterday afternoon I started feeling something coming on myself. I woke up this morning with a full on head cold and am certain I should postpone my test tomorrow. I have no doubt that the swing in weather hasn't helped. It was in the teens last Friday and then almost 65 degrees on Saturday! Crazy Kentucky weather!

Anyway, depending on how the next 24 hours goes I'm guessing I'm going to fall a few days behind. Should I complete both tests (bike/run) closer to the weekend contingent upon feeling better at that time?

I rarely get sick so I'm not accustomed to training through it if that's what I should do?

Shaughn Simmons

Definitely rest and recover Todd.....

I would not test myself if I was coming down with something.

Feel better soon!

SS

 

Jeff Kane

I agree with Shawn in regards to the rest and recovery. As far as testing is concerned, once 100% execute the tests as prescribed with 48hrs rest in between the two. Worst case is that you only do those two tests this week in training. Better to be fresh with true results than guessing.

 

Get well!

Ashton Mossy

@Todd - I feel your pain. These last 8 weeks took a toll on me and I need some big time rest as well. I recommend the below plan. This is what I will be doing, compliments of Coach P.

Mon - OFF
Tue - Light Ride of 45 minutes mostly in Zone 2.
Wed - 30 minute run @ TRP effort, with strides.
Thu - OFF
Fri - Bike Test Day (good warm up!)
Sat - OFF
Sun - Run Test Day

Peter Carroll

Ashton- Thanks for posting that. that sounds perfect. I've been nursing a sore hammy and decided last Thursday that I need to give it an easy week or it will never get better. That sounds like the perfect plan.

Good luck with the testing everyone!

Phil Mills

I like Mike Weinmann's suggestion. I've been using a similar approach, but increasing 5 watts every 5'. I wonder if the 1 w per min increase would be less noticeable and less "shock" to the system. I'll have to try that this time around.

After a weekend of lazy layabouting on the training front, I am unintentionally over rested. Late nights spent with the wife and an overbooked weekend dropped early am wko's from the schedule. If all goes well, I plan to test this evening.

Ashton Mossy

+1 for Mike's FTP plan.

My plan is identical. I'll be starting off at my current FTP + 5% for the first 5min and then increasing ~6-7w (3%) every 5min, or 3x during the test, assessing every 5min. This worked well for me on my last test and I had nothing left going into the final 5min - no last minute surges to skew results. Also, on my last test, I went way too easy on my 5min VO2 before the 20min. Will be sure to hammer it down this round.

Robert Sabo

Sounds like you guys all use ERG mode for your test. Set the power you want to ride.

Brian Hagan

@Rob, No. I do not nor do I believe anyone should use erg mode for an FTP test. These are just guidelines for pacing.

Brian Hagan

@Robert, I'm glad you mentioned that, because other people may have gotten the same impression. Here is a great article from the TrainerRoad blog.

http://support.trainerroad.com/hc/en-us/articles/201869584-Testing-on-an-ERG-Trainer

Ashton Mossy

@Brian/Robert, I didn't plan on using erg mode either. My plan was a guide. But playing devil's advocate, why not use it? Seems just as arbitrary as manually shifting gears. Either way you're tapping something to change resistance. And it's more precise in erg mode, if used outside the TR app. It could probably eliminate a lot of my gear hunting as I get fatigued - I sometimes go back and forth between an easier gear/higher cadence and a harder gear/lower cadence. What's the downside?

Brian Hagan

@ Ashton - The 20 minutes should be a time trial for 20' at the best (hardest) effort you can sustain for the full 20'.  If you use erg mode, you are limiting the outcome to whatever the predetermined watts are set in the program.  It will likely either be less than your best effort, or may be harder than your best effort and result in a failed test.  Either way, it is very unlikely to be equal to your best effort.  I want to see what my best effort produces, so I will not use erg mode.

Ellen Sauter

I did it! Raised my FTP by 10 watts - Coach Rich must know what he is doing! Happy Testing everyone

Ellen

Shaughn Simmons

What Brian said all.

Pace your self the first 6 mins then put your head down and see what you can do.  At the 12 minute mark, re-commit yourself to the task at hand and don't let numbers limit your efforts.  At 18 minutes in, it should be very dark, hold that line, pull out all the stops and make it happen!

 

@ Ellen - Congratulations!  Damn fine work!

SS

Ashton Mossy

Seeing some big test numbers in Strava. You guys are animals!

@Ellen - Nice gain!

Phil Mills

It was a very dark and very late night. Wrapped up this puke worthy effort around midnight.

VO2 - 299
FTP - 262

This is a 21 watt bump and where I exited the OS last year.

I tried something different this go around. I went with the gradual increase of 1 watt per minute rather than 5 watts every 5 minutes. I found that it was way too conservative an approach for me. By the 10' mark, my interval average watts was not increasing at the same pace I'm used to. It's all about mathematical averaging. This approach will get the job done, but I feel that I left 3-5 watts on the table during the middle 10'. I switched back to my usual method and had to play catch up for the time remaining. It definitely made the last two minutes the darkest I've experienced during a test.

NP for the 20' was 276. To hit my target number, my last minute averaged from 332-388 watts, with a max HR of 176.

Robert Sabo

I used the Trainer Road test which does stay in ERG mode and did my best FTP test ever. New FTP of 256W. Previous high was 250W. I'm up 20W from start of OS so these new zones will hurt. Is there a TR test in the EN workouts that switches out of ERG and where is it? I thought there was one but can't find it.

Phil Mills

Great work Ellen and Robert

Robert Sabo

@Phil nice work by the way. At midnight?
My heart rate was actually relatively low, so I wonder whether I could have gone even harder. My AM HR has been stable.
@Ellen - way to go

Shaughn Simmons

@Phil - wow!  Is the bike ok?  Huge improvement man!

@Robert - BIG improvement!  You guys are monsters already in Week 8!  ....HR a little low...., I agree you probably had some more gas in the tank, but that is the issue with ERG mode, you are going to be limited to what you can really do....

Strong reports coming in across the board!

SS

 

 

Shaughn Simmons

No testing for me this week as I just tested 3 weeks ago.

I did make it through some early morning interval work: https://www.strava.com/activities/807029980

Keep the test reports coming!

SS

Phil Mills

Okay, since the can is open on the ERG mode debate, let's delve into it a bit further. I will openly admit to using both slope and ERG during my testing over the years. The end result has, in all but one test, resulted in a very dark and almost puke-worthy experience. I understand the line of thinking that you can either under perform or blow up the test while in ERG mode. How is using ERG mode any different that performing the run test on a treadmill? Maybe this topic is better served in a thread of its own.

Thanks Shaughn and Robert. Yeah, midnight. The weekend didn't go as planned. Due to sleep deprivation, I missed both workouts. On three days rest, the test needed to get done on Monday.

Shaughn Simmons

@Phil - I don't use ERG but I believe you define the power you want to ride when using it, whereas with a TM, you can increase speed as you go.....frankly, if at all possible, I perform run test on a flat track vs. a TM.  I understand that just may not be possible during winter months for many.....

SS

Phil Mills

@ SS - I see the ERG mode and TM as practically the same, just that you adjust the power, up or down vs the speed. Same as changing gears on a fluid trainer. I have not performed a run test on a TM either. I'll be paying the Y to use their indoor track. Too windy this time of year.

Shaughn Simmons

Well, it sounds like ERG would work if you can adjust the power in the middle of the test.  I was under the impression one had to choose a specific power setting for that interval and stick with it until the interval was over........

I use the very boring and old fashioned cycle ops fluid trainer.....................with a G3 PT in the hub.........

Great discussion points!

SS

Mark Maurer

I used TR for the first time to do my FTP test at the beginning of DOS with the EN FTP test. The test part was in ERG mode but I adjusted it up with the Computrainer control every minute or two, so l actually negative split the test so to speak in that l ramped up as l went along. I think it really helped with the pacing of the test in that l didn't start out too hard only to fade at the end. I did have a pretty good idea of where my FTP was so I started a little below that and built from there. Of course if you do that you have to remember to add 5% at the beginning because you have to subtract 5% at the end to get your FTP if you're doing the 20 minute test.

Phil Mills

@SS - Your are one of the masters at reviewing bike profiles. Here's last night's test: http://tpks.ws/pTyV3 performed in ERG mode.

Ashton Mossy

Alright Phil, I'm taking the bait.

When I talk about using ERG mode, I'm referring to using it through my Wahoo Kickr app on my iPhone rather than TrainerRoad. I think TR would require you to preset the entire 20min which obviously doesn't work, or maybe you could adjust the intensity % while taking - maybe Robert can speak more to that. My point is, in the Wahoo app, in ERG mode, you can simply tap the +/- to get immediate watt changes.

For the VO2 test, I would NOT use ERG - because of both the short time period and the fact that I really have no idea where to set the power. However, I could see using it in the 20min test - much longer time period and you have a pretty good idea where your improved power numbers should be. You can keep tapping the + button to increase watts until you can no longer hold, then tap - button to back down, or whatever you feel is best.

Benefits: no gear changes, low VI, precise increases/decreases to power, and mentally I like the idea of pushing the + button to get my watts higher and higher; I can't drop below those watts UNLESS I physically press the - button. Makes me feel like Drago in Rocky IV with the Russian scientists pushing him harder and harder. "I must break you".

Shaughn Simmons

Glad you posted that for the team though I wouldn't try this at home unless you're a professional......

Very valid test in my view.

1) Completed the 5' test first and drove HR steadily coming in at 299 NP (300 club V02....close enough)

2) Held the line on the 20' test as show by HR until then end always turning the cranks coming in at 277 NP or 264 FTP (95%) but maybe left a little on the table in the 5' test given 264X1.2 = 315NP.  In other words, in a perfect world, your 5' V02 test should be about 120% of your tested FTP....may also suggest that you have more to benefit from 5' Vo2 intervals to lift your roof more at this point.

Now, would be nice to see before and after w/kg numbers from this group as well.....

SS