Completed a 4 mile run yesterday at the YMCA and another today off the bike. Both were at TRP so nothing exciting but it did feel good to run off the bike today.
Hello fellow JOSers. As mentioned in my intro I am hacking the OS as I have some snowshoe running goals, so all runs will be snowshoe for me, unless the weather is so ucky that I can not, so this week I did a run on Monday on the mill (interval work for 1 hour) and today I did my run outside on a trail. I completed 6.11miles in 1hr5min. This is the longest I have run on my snowshoes and I am happy about the outcome. Each week I will be lengthening the run by 1 mile. I did not test for the run and will not test as I will not be running on the road or the mill and therefore no sense. Decision between me and Coach P. I will go into more detail about how I am hacking my season next week.
My "hill" run was on a new treadmill at our gym the other day. Gotta give those guys credit...that's a really nice treadmill. :-) Nothing fancy Thurs-Sat...Just getting it done.
@ Jon B 10-15" for two turnarounds 10-15 seconds seems like a lot of time. Having said that taking only 4 seconds off bumps up your VDOT from 38 to 39. You are very close to the 39 VDOT. You mentioned it was all you had but if you think you lost 4 second then go ahead and bump it up. Just watch your downstream workouts to ensure you are hitting the efforts. For z1 you will be running 12 second per mile faster, TRP 9 second, 11 seconds Z2, z3 and z4. Not a huge stretch in my opinion give how close you were. Just remember the OS is about run durability
If you are tired remember that there are options for Z3 run work and the bike is 95%-100.
Was finally able to run on dry/non icy surface for my brick. Happy with the speed, felt good and could keep up going but had to go grab dinner and coffee.
Today is IMO the hardest run of the week, will do it in the late afternoon
Today was the first workout that I pushed the date back on. Was supposed to be the hard run today, but risk/reward wasn't there. We got just enough snow yesterday and enough cold overnight to turn everything into an icy mess. The worst part is, I didn't discover all of this until I went out for my run - Got all bundled up (was only 22°), and within the first 5 steps I knew it was not going to be good. I started my run, hoping it'd get better, but within 1/2 mile I knew it was not to be. Fortunately its supposed to be nice and sunny today, and also a balmy 42° tomorrow.
I am very motivated/impressed with all of the testing and enthusiasm going on here this week!
Regarding TM running....the way I manage it is very simple. I calibrate my Garmin foot pod over 800 meters on a flat track first.
Once calibrated, I then run on the TM and always raise it to 1% grade. When I do this I am normally very close to my outside pace, maybe only slightly faster with HR very much aligned with the pace I see on the TM. This assumes you are on a properly calibrated TM. I find raising the TM to 1% helps normalize the pace to outside. By doing this, I can use the pace zones I acquired when I tested outside and realize much of the HR/effort with those paces I see on the mill.......I'm sure there a more sophisticated ways to do this as the team mentions below but the simplicity of this method works for me.
All peeps in the JOS should be reminded I have had a longer ramp than most of you given I began a gradual build back in October and have some personal goals which I am tracking to as we go here so please don't compare my stuff to the current Week 1 schedule.
~38 miles this week with 8.5 miles at threshold or better. Traveling back home today and managed a 9 X 800 TM run early
Hey gang first week in the books. OA I had a good TM run result that surprised me. All brick runs were also done on the TM and went as per plan. On the Sunday today went outside with fellow EN'er Brent Pilon all bundled up being that it's -12 C here but sunny. We ran a little longer like 2 hrs and got in over 13 miles.The scenery was awesome so it was just a good run day OA. Yesterday's workouts seemed not to affect us today. Week 2 is upon us now.
+1 On all the great work from everyone this week! Executed the Sunday run as prescribed and hit all miles +/- 2 secs. Really trying to dialing in the pacing. Ready for week 2!!
Love the OS and the mojo that's associated with it. Week one is in the books.
5' run time with an additional 11' walking for 1 mile total. Hit my goal of 10-15' of running this week with 13' total. Next week I'm look at 15-20' total to keep ramping up. I have to remember that the cardiovascular system will adapt faster than the what mileage my body can handle particularly when cycling hard. I almost went extra time today as I was feeling good but stopped as I capped myself at 5' max this week for any one run session.
5' run time with an additional 11' walking for 1 mile total. Hit my goal of 10-15' of running this week with 13' total. Next week I'm look at 15-20' total to keep ramping up. I have to remember that the cardiovascular system will adapt faster than the what mileage my body can handle particularly when cycling hard. I almost went extra time today as I was feeling good but stopped as I capped myself at 5' max this week for any one run session.
I'm one week into return to running with high hamstring tendonitis. I'm going 32' walk/run. Today was 8x1.5' walk/2.5' run. I'm no worse than when I started. I will be keeping <32 min, daily, until the soreness is all gone, adding 15" running each interval daily. Bike doesn't seem to be affected, nor swimming, weights, or core work. <br /> BTW, I just made up that return to running protocol. Once I get to 30"/3.5 min, I'll start lengthening the intervals until I get to one mile (9 min or so). This is the 4th time in two years I've had to do this, after 15 yrs of no injury. Previous efforts seemed like I ramped up too soon. I've got until June to get back in shape....
@Gordon: thanks for the thoughts. I went out for my hard run today and was way faster on the 2x1 mile runs. I was back home where I knew the roads. I also have been thinking about the 5K test and it was
In an unfamilar place
I had been on my feet all day leading a workshop
I was probably dehydrated.
I think I will do another test now that I am back home. I think I could go under 8min/mile for the 5K. But then again-I will show some big improvement as I get faster.
Week 1 in the books: I'm certainly tired--but not totally spent. I am feeling good about the interval work. I have spent too much of this past years workouts just going for runs and bikes. This has been good. Tomorrow I will hop back in the pool. My guys swim every day and then we go to coffee. I'm not willing to give up the social aspect of the swimming. I'm looking forward to week 2.
Great run today. I needed lots of self talk cause I always think I 'can't run that fast. Anyway - found a good route near my house. There is a local farm that has a gravel track which is almost exactly a mile. So did my 3 mile warm up then my 2 x 1 miles on the track. The HR was a little high for TRP and was right at or just a bit slower than the TRP pace. https://www.strava.com/activities/833352115/laps well done everyone!
@Al: I'm ready to start thinking about the addition of running to my walking regimen. What ratio of walk/run did you use to start? I completed a 12% treadmill walk for 2 x 9' intervals today... and did a few TRP sets of 10 strides without difficulty while walking the dog. The steep incline will simulate the muscle pattern of running, but like water running, its not REALLY running! I'm focused only on an Aquabike in June; but I'd like to be able to "participate" in a local sprint race in May. Both the neurosurgeon and PT are in agreement that a sensible level of running is likely to be fine... as long as it doesn't cause pain.
Things went better at the pool today. I only swam 5x100 to make a mile for the week... but I descended my set from T-swim pace. My legs did not hurt from the extended position as yesterday. I can assure everyone that being a triathlete is a clear advantage if you have back problems. I went from flexion on the trainer to extension in the pool. My PT is starting to focus on the core, hip flexor, glute complex. Continuing that through the season will be the key to my avoiding further "spine failure." The fact is that this injury, flare-up, or whatever, occurred after 8 weeks of NOT training following a great long course end to my season.
Did my 3M @ TRP + 2X1M @ z4. Was fun, wish I could run this way on race day hah... was cold but still manageable. Everyone did great this week, looking fwd what this strong group will do in the next 13 weeks! All of you gonna crush dreams on race days!
I'm one week into return to running with high hamstring tendonitis. I'm going 32' walk/run. Today was 8x1.5' walk/2.5' run. I'm no worse than when I started. I will be keeping <32 min, daily, until the soreness is all gone, adding 15" running each interval daily. Bike doesn't seem to be affected, nor swimming, weights, or core work. <br />
BTW, I just made up that return to running protocol. Once I get to 30"/3.5 min, I'll start lengthening the intervals until I get to one mile (9 min or so). This is the 4th time in two years I've had to do this, after 15 yrs of no injury. Previous efforts seemed like I ramped up too soon. I've got until June to get back in shape....
Al I too have kept the running periods shorter. I just did not list my intervals. This week I did 3' walk 2X(1.5' run and 2' walk in between). The 5' earlier in the week was split between two 15' walks to and from my vehicle for work 3' running in the morning and 2' running in the evening. Today's 5' run was walk 5', run 3', walk 2' ,run 2', then 4' walk to finish off and get in 1 mile on the treadmill.
I do like the 4' total set with reducing the walking time. With my ~17' walk in to work 4 or 5X a week I have ample opportunity to get in some of these short 4' sets with the split workout option am and pm. I'm diligently tracking my mileage and trying to ensure that I don't start trying to push a harder effort. It's all about consistent workouts with at least 1 day off in between running sessions until I get the total running time up to 90'.
@ John C I started with very short running times 30", then 45" then 1'. Rest time in between was at least 2'. I started with 4X30" just getting in 2' of running in a 15' session. As above no back to back running days and early on if I needed 2 days off I took it or what every needed. I pushed up the time to 6' straight on my 3rd running about 4 weeks ago and had some issues. For me shorter run times followed by rest is better.
@John...I keep DNA fell into this pattern randomly. I first do 20-30 min of dynamic stretching, a routine I've been tinkering with for more than a year. For my first outing, I decided to "warm-up"with 5' walking, then 1' running @1-1.5' min/mi slower than my TRP. It was too cold to keep that up, so I reduced the walking to 3' stay warm, and built on that every day.
I've found if I do this on a treadmill, OR if I don't do the stretching first, that it hurts to run. It's also best for me on the flats, or with just a short, easy hill.
Yesterday I finished off week one with my 3 at TRP and 2X1 Z4. Just getting the work done. Legs are a bit sore so looking forward to todays recovery day.
Hi all! It's been great to keep up with everyone's progress--I'm excited every time I read one of you is excited about your workout. :-)
I'm still trying to figure out the zone thing, though not stressing about it so much. @Gordon's context was really helpful--that if I could run the 20" at what I'll call my "aspirational" pace, then I'd know I had tested really poorly. So I set out this weekend to see how/if I could run any distance at the aspirational vs. test pace (~8:35 vs. 10) and decided after 5 minutes that I'd rather take it in intervals, and the remaining intervals were all shorter--3' ea., with 3 on / 3 off using the 10 min. pace as my recovery.
Now that my weekend test thoroughly proved I can't run the z2 aspirational paces for the prescribed distance without rest(!), I'm ready to make some zone adjustments. Had to prove it to myself that it was too much first. ;-) I should also preface this with, I do understand the bike thread stuff about not pushing too hard, and trust me, my bike zones are ridiculously low and I've got no desire to over-achieve there. I know from last season I'll do well to even keep up with the bike workouts as prescribed. I'd admit there may some over-achieving going on in the running, but I am genuinely trying to find the right amount of stretch... If I was able to use the TRP of 9:17 last year, dropping things much below that seems like it won't help me continue the progression of dropping several minutes from my half again this year. SO, here's my proposed compromise. ;-)
After playing around with the calculator, and with the insight from Trish, Shaughn & Gordon & the team, it seems like my previous vdot was 33 (last half) , and was 35 at last 10k. While the 35 would be reasonable to use, those paces all seem too comfortable on the low end, and not a stretch on the high end. 36 vdot is closer as I can run a z2 20' 9:33 no problem (using this weekends run as that benchmark--so helpful to have that way of framing things--thanks again for that!). The 37 vdot feel closer to my target for training and racing this season... The low end still seems quite comfortably low--I feel like I could run forever at a TRP of 10:04 (though I won't go try to prove that right now ;-), the z2 steady at 9:20 is around what my long runs with friends look like, and a z5 8:18 would be HARD (which is what z5 is supposed to be, right?) and doable for really short distances. It would also put my predicted half just under 2, which I think is in striking distance this/next season.
In summary, I've got the 37 vdot numbers plugged in the calculator now (considerably down from 41!), and it feels reasonable based on what I know now. That said, I still don't know very much / only what I'm learning in this thread, so I'm still listening! FWIW, I'm also doing a fair amount of yoga and running-specific strength work with the intent of supporting these paces / staying healthy.
@Catherine: The EN Zones emphasize polarized training. The easy often feels "too easy." I struggle to stay within the TRP zone, but edging up to Zn2, and sometimes even low Zn3 (that feels like I'm "training"), the fatigue that I add adversely affects my hard bike OS focus, and reduces my ability to maintain consistent run duration training with optimal biking. Running has always been my weakest event, and I believe that is partly because I am able to swim and bike very hard and improve quickly. When I apply that experience to running, I find myself overtrained... or even injured. The TRP runs that seem "too easy" do not fit the "pain" that we learn to manage on the bike. Run durability is Different because running requires more recovery. Coach Rich noted last year that it took a few weeks to return to what he called his "training numbers." Your run progress will come over the season. That's why testing is so important, but often frustrating in week 1. Never fear... there are always more tests!
Got yesterdays run in today. was a much more tolerable almost 40 degrees. I pushed back yesterdays run due to icing on the paths - of course, since its warm out today, that means that everything that was iced yesterday melted today. That also means that everything that wasn't slippery yesterday is today. Took a small whoopsie when going down a small slope. Everything was fine (except the ego - of course it happened right in front of a tree trimming crew - does anybody every slip/trip/fall when nobody is around to see?).
Week one in the books. Feeling pretty good but have one question: During yesterday's run I had to go pretty slow in order to be at TRP. I had to go on average 1:15 slower per mile than usual to keep my heart rate under 135; at a hilly section of the run I even had to walk to be in range. That being said it felt like I could go for hours at that pace. Is it normal to loose so much time per mile? At what point does the speed comes back?
Week one in the books. Feeling pretty good but have one question: During yesterday's run I had to go pretty slow in order to be at TRP. I had to go on average 1:15 slower per mile than usual to keep my heart rate under 135; at a hilly section of the run I even had to walk to be in range. That being said it felt like I could go for hours at that pace. Is it normal to loose so much time per mile? At what point does the speed comes back?
Jorge - I don't know exactly what you're asking, but here are some things to consider...Your VDOT is 35, based on a 5K time of 27 minutes, right? So your TRP should be about 10:45 min/mi. Now, you are training for Ironman @ Canada and Arizona. You can translate that TRP to those races this way: what you *feel*, and your HR, @ TRP will be what you are *feeling* and seeing on race day, running those 26.2 miles. And, believe it or not, you will be running (again, based on a VDOT of 35, which may very well improve over the next six months) those races @ 11:30-12 minute miles. So, if going "all day" means being able to run @ that effort level for 5+ hours (after biking and swimming for more than 7 hours), well, you are headed in the right direction.
If, during the OS, you are able to improve your 5K time to, say, 25:30, your TRP will drop by 20-30 seconds, and your ability to run an Ironman marathon will get you in the range of 4 hrs 50 minutes. That's the "speed" you might well be gaining by doing these seemingly slow paces for much of your running. The way you build up towards that 5K improvement is by doing the intervals on Wed and Sun, at the prescribed pace, which for you is about 8:45/mile. The other miles you're running, those slow ones @ TRP, are giving you the ability to simply keep running for 5 hours after you've biked 112 miles, not an easy task.
@Al - Thanks for your response. You hit all the right points. I am new to this so I am concerned about loosing speed. I can usually run a half marathon at 9:20 pace. (This is a half marathon only - no swim, no bike), so suddenly running miles between 10:30 to 11:00 seems like going backwards.
Comments
Brick run done today: I probably over-preformed on the run today: 10-15 seconds per mile too fast. I need to trust the training.
Keep up the good work team!
Did the run today as a sorta brick run (spent easily 5 minutes trying to get Garmin to fire up) and had to remember it was Zone 2, not race!
Feels great to be training with purpose!
Nothing fancy Thurs-Sat...Just getting it done.
@ Jon B 10-15" for two turnarounds 10-15 seconds seems like a lot of time. Having said that taking only 4 seconds off bumps up your VDOT from 38 to 39. You are very close to the 39 VDOT. You mentioned it was all you had but if you think you lost 4 second then go ahead and bump it up. Just watch your downstream workouts to ensure you are hitting the efforts. For z1 you will be running 12 second per mile faster, TRP 9 second, 11 seconds Z2, z3 and z4. Not a huge stretch in my opinion give how close you were. Just remember the OS is about run durability
If you are tired remember that there are options for Z3 run work and the bike is 95%-100.
Today is IMO the hardest run of the week, will do it in the late afternoon
https://www.strava.com/activities/832073681
I am very motivated/impressed with all of the testing and enthusiasm going on here this week!
Regarding TM running....the way I manage it is very simple. I calibrate my Garmin foot pod over 800 meters on a flat track first.
Once calibrated, I then run on the TM and always raise it to 1% grade. When I do this I am normally very close to my outside pace, maybe only slightly faster with HR very much aligned with the pace I see on the TM. This assumes you are on a properly calibrated TM. I find raising the TM to 1% helps normalize the pace to outside. By doing this, I can use the pace zones I acquired when I tested outside and realize much of the HR/effort with those paces I see on the mill.......I'm sure there a more sophisticated ways to do this as the team mentions below but the simplicity of this method works for me.
All peeps in the JOS should be reminded I have had a longer ramp than most of you given I began a gradual build back in October and have some personal goals which I am tracking to as we go here so please don't compare my stuff to the current Week 1 schedule.
~38 miles this week with 8.5 miles at threshold or better. Traveling back home today and managed a 9 X 800 TM run early
https://www.strava.com/activities/832823301
Feeling tired and healthy.....not a bad place to be.
SS
Love the OS and the mojo that's associated with it. Week one is in the books.
5' run time with an additional 11' walking for 1 mile total. Hit my goal of 10-15' of running this week with 13' total. Next week I'm look at 15-20' total to keep ramping up. I have to remember that the cardiovascular system will adapt faster than the what mileage my body can handle particularly when cycling hard. I almost went extra time today as I was feeling good but stopped as I capped myself at 5' max this week for any one run session.
BTW, I just made up that return to running protocol. Once I get to 30"/3.5 min, I'll start lengthening the intervals until I get to one mile (9 min or so). This is the 4th time in two years I've had to do this, after 15 yrs of no injury. Previous efforts seemed like I ramped up too soon. I've got until June to get back in shape....
https://connect.garmin.com/modern/activity/1527255679
@Gordon: thanks for the thoughts. I went out for my hard run today and was way faster on the 2x1 mile runs. I was back home where I knew the roads. I also have been thinking about the 5K test and it was
I think I will do another test now that I am back home. I think I could go under 8min/mile for the 5K. But then again-I will show some big improvement as I get faster.
Week 1 in the books: I'm certainly tired--but not totally spent. I am feeling good about the interval work. I have spent too much of this past years workouts just going for runs and bikes. This has been good. Tomorrow I will hop back in the pool. My guys swim every day and then we go to coffee. I'm not willing to give up the social aspect of the swimming. I'm looking forward to week 2.
The HR was a little high for TRP and was right at or just a bit slower than the TRP pace.
https://www.strava.com/activities/833352115/laps
well done everyone!
Things went better at the pool today. I only swam 5x100 to make a mile for the week... but I descended my set from T-swim pace. My legs did not hurt from the extended position as yesterday. I can assure everyone that being a triathlete is a clear advantage if you have back problems. I went from flexion on the trainer to extension in the pool. My PT is starting to focus on the core, hip flexor, glute complex. Continuing that through the season will be the key to my avoiding further "spine failure." The fact is that this injury, flare-up, or whatever, occurred after 8 weeks of NOT training following a great long course end to my season.
Was fun, wish I could run this way on race day hah... was cold but still manageable.
Everyone did great this week, looking fwd what this strong group will do in the next 13 weeks! All of you gonna crush dreams on race days!
https://www.strava.com/activities/833393603
Al I too have kept the running periods shorter. I just did not list my intervals. This week I did 3' walk 2X(1.5' run and 2' walk in between). The 5' earlier in the week was split between two 15' walks to and from my vehicle for work 3' running in the morning and 2' running in the evening. Today's 5' run was walk 5', run 3', walk 2' ,run 2', then 4' walk to finish off and get in 1 mile on the treadmill.
I do like the 4' total set with reducing the walking time. With my ~17' walk in to work 4 or 5X a week I have ample opportunity to get in some of these short 4' sets with the split workout option am and pm. I'm diligently tracking my mileage and trying to ensure that I don't start trying to push a harder effort. It's all about consistent workouts with at least 1 day off in between running sessions until I get the total running time up to 90'.
@ John C I started with very short running times 30", then 45" then 1'. Rest time in between was at least 2'. I started with 4X30" just getting in 2' of running in a 15' session. As above no back to back running days and early on if I needed 2 days off I took it or what every needed. I pushed up the time to 6' straight on my 3rd running about 4 weeks ago and had some issues. For me shorter run times followed by rest is better.
I've found if I do this on a treadmill, OR if I don't do the stretching first, that it hurts to run. It's also best for me on the flats, or with just a short, easy hill.
I'm still trying to figure out the zone thing, though not stressing about it so much. @Gordon's context was really helpful--that if I could run the 20" at what I'll call my "aspirational" pace, then I'd know I had tested really poorly. So I set out this weekend to see how/if I could run any distance at the aspirational vs. test pace (~8:35 vs. 10) and decided after 5 minutes that I'd rather take it in intervals, and the remaining intervals were all shorter--3' ea., with 3 on / 3 off using the 10 min. pace as my recovery.
Now that my weekend test thoroughly proved I can't run the z2 aspirational paces for the prescribed distance without rest(!), I'm ready to make some zone adjustments. Had to prove it to myself that it was too much first. ;-) I should also preface this with, I do understand the bike thread stuff about not pushing too hard, and trust me, my bike zones are ridiculously low and I've got no desire to over-achieve there. I know from last season I'll do well to even keep up with the bike workouts as prescribed. I'd admit there may some over-achieving going on in the running, but I am genuinely trying to find the right amount of stretch... If I was able to use the TRP of 9:17 last year, dropping things much below that seems like it won't help me continue the progression of dropping several minutes from my half again this year. SO, here's my proposed compromise. ;-)
After playing around with the calculator, and with the insight from Trish, Shaughn & Gordon & the team, it seems like my previous vdot was 33 (last half) , and was 35 at last 10k. While the 35 would be reasonable to use, those paces all seem too comfortable on the low end, and not a stretch on the high end. 36 vdot is closer as I can run a z2 20' 9:33 no problem (using this weekends run as that benchmark--so helpful to have that way of framing things--thanks again for that!). The 37 vdot feel closer to my target for training and racing this season... The low end still seems quite comfortably low--I feel like I could run forever at a TRP of 10:04 (though I won't go try to prove that right now ;-), the z2 steady at 9:20 is around what my long runs with friends look like, and a z5 8:18 would be HARD (which is what z5 is supposed to be, right?) and doable for really short distances. It would also put my predicted half just under 2, which I think is in striking distance this/next season.
In summary, I've got the 37 vdot numbers plugged in the calculator now (considerably down from 41!), and it feels reasonable based on what I know now. That said, I still don't know very much / only what I'm learning in this thread, so I'm still listening! FWIW, I'm also doing a fair amount of yoga and running-specific strength work with the intent of supporting these paces / staying healthy.
Jorge - I don't know exactly what you're asking, but here are some things to consider...Your VDOT is 35, based on a 5K time of 27 minutes, right? So your TRP should be about 10:45 min/mi. Now, you are training for Ironman @ Canada and Arizona. You can translate that TRP to those races this way: what you *feel*, and your HR, @ TRP will be what you are *feeling* and seeing on race day, running those 26.2 miles. And, believe it or not, you will be running (again, based on a VDOT of 35, which may very well improve over the next six months) those races @ 11:30-12 minute miles. So, if going "all day" means being able to run @ that effort level for 5+ hours (after biking and swimming for more than 7 hours), well, you are headed in the right direction.
If, during the OS, you are able to improve your 5K time to, say, 25:30, your TRP will drop by 20-30 seconds, and your ability to run an Ironman marathon will get you in the range of 4 hrs 50 minutes. That's the "speed" you might well be gaining by doing these seemingly slow paces for much of your running. The way you build up towards that 5K improvement is by doing the intervals on Wed and Sun, at the prescribed pace, which for you is about 8:45/mile. The other miles you're running, those slow ones @ TRP, are giving you the ability to simply keep running for 5 hours after you've biked 112 miles, not an easy task.