JW - 2017 Run Focus - Needs guidance
John Withrow, Orono, MN
Age: 41yrs old
Athletic background: 3x NCAA All-American wrestler (1995-1998, 158lbs, 167lbs, 177lbs)
Current weight: ~205lbs
Race weight: ~180lbs. I’m 6’-1” and have muscular shoulders/neck/lats/arms. I am prison camp skinny at 180lbs, so can’t imagine going much lower (when I wrestled 177lbs ~20yrs ago, my “walking around” weight was 195lbs and within 2 weeks after the season, I weighed 210lbs)
Run history: I was the single slowest runner on my entire wrestling team at Pitt (including heavyweights and walk-ons). As of 2009, I didn’t think it would be possible for “me” to run an entire 10k, let alone after a swim and a bike. I joined EN and did a 4:38 run split in my first IM (Louisville) in 2011. In early 2013, I did a Run Gait Analysis and then focused diligently for ~1.5 yrs on Increasing my core stability and run cadence (4:10 run split at IMLP in 2013). Then increased my run frequency and mileage in 2014 vs previous IM training (beta tester for the EN Run Durability Plan).
Multisport Background: First Olympic Tri in 2010 (~10:15 pace for the 10k). Have since done numerous half’s and 9 full Ironman’s. 112mi bike PR – 4:48 (relay leg of Challenge AC). IM PR – 10:21:10 IMMT in 2014 (1:07:55/5:21:26/3:43:01). Kona in 2014 (via Iroman XC). All other IM marathons are 4:10 or slower. Did a 6:06 bike split at IM Wisconsin on my Fat Bike (followed by a 4:26 run)…
5k PR – 20:52 in 2013
10k PR – 45:01 in 2013
13.1 PR – 1:41:40 in 2014
26.2 PR – 3:43:01 in 2014 (run leg of IMMT, never raced an open Marathon)
Longest run: R2R2R (Grand Canyon) in 2015, ~46 miles with ~11,000’ of gain in 14:43:45 (~11:43:03 moving time).
The run speed is my obvious limiter for being competitive in Ironman racing. Why is it that I can ride circles around my competition, but have to work really, really hard to keep run paces that they can make look “easy”. And I’m talking about pure run speed (open 5k, 10k, 13.1, etc.), and not necessarily just after a long bike. I have (or can develop) fantastic endurance and can work very hard, but I need to figure out better run technique/efficiency/economy.
My self-identified run limiters:
1) Ankle mobility – I had numerous minor ankle sprains/injuries during my decades as a competitive wrestler. My ankles creek and crack every time I walk up a set of stairs. Anterior Ankle Impingement (“athlete’s ankle” or “footballer’s ankle”) means that I have limited dorsiflexion (and limited plantarflexion, but I think that effects my swimming more than running). Also, I cannot do a deep squat and keep my heels on the ground and not fall over (ankle or rest of body problem?). Every “fast” or professional runner I have ever seen has a nice forward lean that is initiated at the ankles. , Is extreme (or even “normal”) dorsiflexion necessary to be an efficient and fast runner? And if so,
a. Non-Surgical Rehab – Can I do enough exercises to increase dorsiflexion? My calves are also tight… is the soft tissue or the bony material the real problem?
b. I am open to Ankle Arthroscopy, but only if the probability that it could help (long term) is greater than 50%.
2) Necrotic Sacroiliac (SI) Joint on left side – I had a strep infection in my SI joint in 1994 which required IV antibiotics for 6 weeks and essentially no physical activity for ~6 months. Hasn’t really hurt in a number of years, but I know it’s there.
3) Compression injury to my Lumbar spine in 1999 (hard skydiving landing). This nerve impingement caused bad sciatica in my left leg and I couldn’t “flex” my left calf for many months. For a decade after this, my left calf was smaller/weaker than my right one. When I started running, my left calf and right quad (and low back) would hurt. After 7+ years of running, this has mostly balanced out and I haven’t noticed it in a couple of years, but it’s in my history.
4) Weak (unstable) core (compared to elite athletes) – I was more diligent with core stability exercises in years past (2013 and 2014) and have gotten lazy with this in the last couple of years. It never made me “faster” per se, but I do believe allowed me to keep my normal paces for longer without form breakdown.
5) Upper chain and lower chain don’t seem connected – I have been told by my last physio that the upper half of my body is not necessarily “connected” to the lower half. Am I losing the twisting/elastic forces while running and instead I’m making it a quad dominant repetitive exercise instead of a conservation of energy form of loading and unloading (like a spring) of the connective tissue in my core while twisting (or not twisting) during each stride?
6) Big ankles, big calves, big quads - I have heard the phrase “Big Calves equals slow runner”. Is this true? Anything I can to about it? I know cycling is hip flexor and quad dominant exercise, which I am quite good at. Is this bad for my running and if so, how do I fix it?
7) Insufficient rear chain - Like most of the rest of the world, my glutes/hamstrings/lower back are weak (relative to my quads and hip flexors). Before I started multisport in 2010, my legs were twigs compared to my upper body. (Even as a wrestler, I never lifted for my legs and certainly not Olympic Lifts) After several years of multisport training, my calves and quads got strong but my glutes did not. I used to get a lot of low back pain while running. After focusing on core stability and glute strengthening in 2013 and 2014, this low back pain and instability got better (but didn’t necessarily make me any “faster”).
I have really solid endurance base at this point (~7 years of consistent EN training), but I have never trained like a “runner”. I have certainly run a lot in the context of Ironman multisport training, but I never really learned and trained like a pure runner (i.e. track sessions, recovery, big miles, etc) without the time constraints and cumulative fatigue of concurrently biking. I’m willing and open to anything… Track workouts? Sprints? Plyometrics? Core? Intervals? Prolonged Aerobic Mafetone style training? Is Cadence Important?
I’m also a “Biohacking” nerd (with a MS in Bioengineering),
so data and quantification is in my wheelhouse.
But, I am also literally open to trying anything (other than PED’s) for
nutrition, recovery, training style, etc, etc, etc.
My first thoughts on how to tackle my run speed problem:
Phase 1: Physiologic Assessment
1) Ortho – Ankle specialist to give me an opinion about my lack of dorsiflexion
a. Is this even necessary?
b. I’m actually okay with surgery, but will his/her default simply be to cut?
2) Full body run specialist
a. Evaluate my other deficiencies
b. Core weaknesses?
c. Glute engagement?
d. Upper and lower chain connections?
3) Another Run Gait analysis?
a. Is this more marketing than useful?
Phase 2: Find a specific Run Coach
1) Will this be helpful? If so, Local or Virtual?
2) Train like a runner…
I’m willing to give this an entire year and see what happens. Maybe at the end of the year, I extend it for as long as I need. Or maybe I transition back to multi-sport. I am willing to not train on my bike or get in the water for that year. I might hop in the lake for recovery or do the casual commute on my fat bike if it make sense in the context of a bigger plan… But the plan will really be to focus on fixing whatever comes out of the Physiological Analysis and being trained like a Runner!
I am not looking for an incremental improvement in my running. I can probably get an incremental improvement by just losing weight and continuing to work hard (or harder). I’m looking for a step function improvement in my running speed which I expect to come primarily from increased running economy/efficiency which I can eventually layer endurance underneath to then apply it to Ironman racing in the future.
I’m not looking to become an “elite” runner… And being a “good” runner is completely subjective and certainly all relative. I would personally define someone as being a “good” runner if they can go out and run a Boston Qualifying time marathon if they want to and are reasonably trained. For me, that is “currently” not even close to being possible, no matter how good my fitness is… That means taking about ~20-25 minutes off what I think my lifetime best stand-alone marathon “would have been” had I actually run one in 2014 or 2015. Said a different way that probably means taking 1-2 mins off my lifetime best 5k, moving from ~21 mins (which I’m not actually even near right now) to more like ~19 mins. Or taking my VDOT from ~46 (where it has been plateaued at for the last 4 years) up to around 51 or 52.
Is this crazy at age 41?
Comments
First...not crazy at all here. Based on your IMMT run I think your open marathon, dedicated training time with that fitness would be in the 3:10-3:15 range. I think that should be your goal. I don't like marathon running unless it's attached to an IM, but I'd be open to training for and racing with you along this journey for a good, fun, and flat Marathon. I've heard great things about Grandma's which is very accessible to us both. Could be a fun reward for your success to hit your goal and qualify for Boston.
I wouldn't use a personal coach personally. I think you know enough which, when coupled with the input here in the haus will be more than sufficient to accomplish your goal. For dedicated running I'd go with a run fast/not far approach with lots of frequency. Think 1 long tempo run during the week. One set of short intervals (400s) and a long, steady run each week. Fill that in as your schedule allows with short (3-5 mile) easy Z1 runs 3 days a week and cancel as needed for rest/recovery.
I followed a similar approach when I did my second marathon and saw great improvement.
I'd also encourage you to get a Stryd. I have one as to many on the team. And while I don't know what the hell to do with it I like the idea conceptually and know there is a lot of focus on the team to determine training applications.
PS, I would stay away from surgery unless it's medically necessary. PT, message, stretching would be my first choice.
The bigger question which I haven't been able to answer yet is "Can you be a fast/efficient/economical runner without normal ankle dorsi-flexion"? If the answer is yes, then that's easy, no surgery. If the answer is no, this isn't a soft tissue issue, so no amount of PT/massage/stretching is going to fix the impingement that occurs from the bone on bone contact when I dorsi-flex due to the bone spurs or buildup on the bottom front of my tibia (and/or my talus).
- Train like a runner
- "...“good” runner ... can go out and run a Boston Qualifying time marathon if they want to and are reasonably trained."
These two are linked obviously. I'll get back to this after I tackle a few of your other issues.My belief - we're stuck living in the body we're born with. Start tweaking some perceived deficit or defect in one part, and the others will start doing weird things to try and compensate for the disruption to homeostasis. You CAN gert faster. But you have to do it within the limitations you were born with and earned along the way (SI, ankle joints, etc.). Your ankle may be a limiter, and it might be fixable. Despite spending my professional life doing surgery 2-3 days a week, I hate surgery. There are so many things that can go wrong, and such a struggle for your body to repair itself after the artificial trauma.
I'd say, if you can run a 3:43 IM marathon, it's doubtful you have major gait or body dysfunction issues. But, you might be able to fine tune your carriage, and a REALLY GOOD consultant might be able to help you with that. But that's not where you're going to find your speed.
You know, first off, that you'll have to be 180# to run your fastest. Can you commit to that for however long you want to be fast, with no ups and downs along the way?
You know you'll have to run track intervals 2, maybe 3 x a week for 3 months at a time, at speeds between 5:30 and 6:45 minutes a mile, distances between 200 and 1600 meters. Check?
In between those speed months, you'll need to spend 12-16 weeks doing serious distance, 55-70 mi/week. Got time and energy for that?
12-18 months of that, and I know you can run a BQ time, with sub 19 5K, sub 40 10K, sub 1:30 HM along the way. At the end of that, you'll have an answer to your question, "Am I fast enough to KQ in my AG?", which is what I assume is underlying all this. I would save that answer until you see what "training like a runner" gets you. It ain't no 9 month project, John.
All the other stuff you're contemplating will, as we say in medicine, be adjuvants to the main therapy.
I agree with everything Al said above ^^^.
Since you can run a 3:4x IM marathon and do R2R2R you probably don't have a major mechanical issue. You probably would have gotten injured if your mechanics were out of whack.
My n=1 is that the secret to running is to run. A lot. It doesn't have to be fancy interval workouts (although they're nice) or anything exotic. Run 4-6 times a week, even if it is a short, easy 3 mile run. Just keep at it all year and make it a way of life. 2015 was my breakthrough year for running. Coach P crafted a plan that ramped me up from 3 runs per week to 5-6 runs over a period of months for the St George Marathon. Then it was on to ultras.
Last year I started using the Maffetone running method of keeping my HR at 180 - my age + 5 for doing this for a while. It's kind of boring at first because it's slow going and you don't get many Strava trophies, but it makes 4-6 runs per week manageable without feeling like I'd been run over by a dump truck. After a couple months you start getting faster at a lower heart rate, and even faster at a high heart rate.
Why not set an epic goal of qualifying for Boston? If you can do a 3:4x IM marathon, you can do a 3:1x open marathon. If you're 40+, that's a BQ.
It sounds like you have a long list of niggles. Consider checking out yoga. It may be hippy-ish, but it is magical at undoing the damage from endurance sports as well as building core strength and preserving mobility.
you aren't playing pro sports or earning your living from your body, It isn't worth the risks.
on a side note, a friend had a simple knee surgery a few weeks ago at age 53, had a blood clot the next day and died. That's not a risk factor I could accept.
No real surprise here, but I think a number of the points Al makes are spot on. One, I would avoid surgery unless the improvement was up around 90% (only because 100% chance, or at least getting a doctor to say that ain't happening). We put our bodies through enough trauma, no need to invite more upon yourself.
Second is the dedication and time commitment. I know you have this in spades if you set your mind to it, but doing nothing but running for a year to 18 months could get old. Especially if the improvements you seek come very incrementally/slow. Again, I know you can do it if you truly want to, the question is the want to.
I also don't think a personal coach is going to buy you much. Just my 0.02, but I do think you could get what you need on that front here with the number of strong runners with know how floating around.
I will be interested to see what you decide and follow the journey. Always makes for great reading!
I'd agree with the no surgery unless its necessary.
Beyond what Al said there's getting to a point where you can do that work. At 205 you will have to lose weight and start building the run durability. Ramping up too fast especially with the extra weight could cause problems. Take this initial time to fix what you can.
Start with core work and look at your individual leg strength to ensure balance. Beyond that even look in to gait and form analysis. Perhaps as said this is working with Coach P and the resources here. I'd have to go find that old thread of Linda Patch's where she did a run gait analysis, where I believe the run jail started. This could be a good place for you to start initially identifying the imbalances and get things corrected as best you can before diving in to the high mileage weeks.
After you get in the swing of this perhaps that's when you utilize some specific coaching or some one on one sessions to speed you along the learning curve, help with form etc. I used to follow Gordo Byrn years ago when he went from an age grouper 11 hour IM to sub 8:30 at IM Canada. He used Bobby McGee to help his form, did some odd strength exercises (pulling a tire in a field) and brought his running to the next level. He was a 2:46 IM marathon runner in one race, it was definitely his strength. Bobby has some resources, books and DVD's as well as one-on-one coaching.
http://www.bobbymcgee.com/
As I'm sitting here I seem to recall someone writing about some run stuff, perhaps with Bobby. I'd like to say it was Dave Tallo but maybe it was someone else. Hopefully he will chime in on this thread. I see if I can dig that thread up as well.
Edit
Found three threads. I'm tempted to not post the first link due to the admin note on the top of the first one. Perhaps there's someone out there with a little more scruples that you could find. There were two threads from Dave on Bobby, see below.
https://endurancenation.vanillacommunities.com/discussion/7719/heres-how-i-rebuilt-my-running-from-scratch#latest
https://endurancenation.vanillacommunities.com/discussion/14659/bobby-mcgee-run-form-video-on-sale-get-it
https://endurancenation.vanillacommunities.com/discussion/7613/interest-check-en-bobby-mcgee-run-mechanics-workshop-thingie
I don't think your body is as much of a limiter as you imagine. Most elite runners aren't "flexible" and that's by design...better spring loading. And the other stuff around your core takes time while the latent "problems" haven't shown up yet...
And big guys are fast. Look at Chris McCormack or better yet, Chris Macdonald...who can run sub-3 in an Ironman and was once 235-lbs (and not that skinny on race day).
I keep coming back to your Step Function vs Incremental Gains. So there's been a lot of great advice out there...so I am going to approach this a little differently to see what you think...and I do this because I know that locking you into a singularly focused block of work could blow the whole thing up (physically or mentally). Yes consistent running for many years pays off...but not everyone can do that, so here we are.
1. I think you should treat your weight as a resource, not a problem. At least for the short term. It's built in resistance training. Every day you run at 205, your 180lb self is getting stronger. Everything you do has more work associated with it...and while you won't see massive gains in speed, using something like a Stryd would help you define that your work rate is increasing.
2. I think you should become a gym rat. Easy at first for form, get loose, but after 6 weeks you should be able to ramp it up. We would want exercises to build those glutes and hammies, while keeping you still flexible. I could see a week with 3 days of good lifting (2 heavy, 1 light), with a fourth session of Yoga.
So, for the first 4 months, you are running short, frequent distances, but not hard. You are not trying to lose weight, but challenging yourself with it. And you are lifting to really make a dent in the strength of your legs.
Then your next 4 months are build around speed work.
3. Strength becomes more plyometric / dynamic than heavy. Maybe 1 heavy day a week, but otherwise more explosive.
4. We add in some speed work here. Think dragging stuff, short sprints, etc. More all out strides than 1 mile at Z4. Not my wheelhouse but we can engage.
5. I think you start eating clean here, but nothing amazing. Maybe you are in the 195 range here, but don't kill yourself.
Final 4 months are where the endurance comes in. During this time you'll engage in more of a traditional marathon prep and dial in your food. I expect the weight to come of as the mileage goes up, etc. You should be familiar with this already.
Thoughts?
Very interesting thread John...thanks for sharing and I look forward to tracking your progress!
Regarding Gordon's first link, That's where I actually went for my gait analysis in 2013. (And I'm still a diehard EN member!). It was certainly helpful, but this year am looking for more. I kind of know their drill, show me that my hips are week and give me a bunch of core exercises to do with some slightly different intervals while running.
I've leaned out a bit already... But have been travelling a lot for work. I'm starting to build a bit of a running base as I continue to investigate my path forward with the hopes of starting to train in earnest in the not too distant future.
I found a local "stride coach" that a couple of my ~2:40 marathon buddies swear by, so I will probably at least see what he has to say.
@Trish-- Funny you should mention Foundation training. Jess has been doing that a bit and it seems to have helped her. I got halfway through the Foundation Training book on my last work trip and am just starting to get to the good stuff. I have another trip on Thursday this week, so hopefully I'll finish it on the plane and might look into local classes or at a minimum, Youtube.
Now regarding my ankles...
FWIW, here's a link to a ~40 second video I took on my cell phone while walking in my hotel after a run last week. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ETPfNBdy78 Please ignore the goofy looking gate because it was a weird angle as I held my phone in my hand. I took it mostly so you could "hear" what they sound like when I walk after a run (it's worse when I go up stairs even when I haven't run in a while). My google searching on the noises basically said it's probably nothing to worry about, but "might" lead to arthritis issues down the road.
It's rare on EN that you find "Universal Agreement" on any topic, but it's pretty telling that everyone here was in full agreement on "No Elective Surgery"... But
I went to a doctor for an evaluation yesterday morning anyways. He said that I have bone spurs on the base of my tibia and top of my talus. He said that the arthroscopic cheilectomy to remove them is a simple process that only has a ~2 week recovery and that they can likely do both ankles at the same time. He said that it likely won't stop the creaking and cracking my ankles make while walking, but will definitely increase my dorsi-flexion (no comment or opinion on whether or not that will make me any faster or not). He did say that given that these two bone spurs collide on every single stride I take, that is likely that my body will continue to lay down more "protective" bone over time and that even if I have them removed that they might come back (if I am a good bone grower) and would need another revision down the road if I continue to stress those joints.
Here's the zoomed in X-Ray of my right ankle (I took the picture of it with my cell phone from his computer monitor).
Even to a laymen's eye, you can see the bone spur at the base of the tibia and the top of my talus. Every time I try to dorsi-flex (i.e. every single step while running), these two bone spurs are what keep my ankle from bending.
FWIW, here's an X-Ray of a "normal" ankle that I "borrowed from Google images.
My left one doesn't look as bad to the naked eye, but it actually has a bit less dorsi-flexion than the right. I think it's because of the shape of them and how quickly they contact. Here's the left one.
Given that it "sounds" like an "easy" surgery with a short recovery time, I am actually leaning towards ignoring all of your advice and doing it. It's really easy to give the advice to "not have surgery", why would anyone else want to feel part of the responsibility should something go wrong... Not completely decided yet, but it is likely that I'll try it at this point.
I'll respond to Coach P's post after I process it a bit more, but is certainly thoughtful (unsurprisingly) and makes sense at first glance.
Against the advice of just about every single person in da Haus, I had surgery on both ankles on Feb 23rd to remove the giant bone spurs and a bunch of fibrous scar-like tissue. The doctor had to open me up on both ankles because he said there was no way to remove them arthroscopically (went to the hammer and chisel method)...
After taking 4 full weeks off from running, I started back with a conservative (for me) return to running protocol. I was incredibly out of shape when I started back which was a bit depressing, but it's starting to come back now. I'm now ~2.5 months post surgery and have been averaging ~20 miles per week the last couple of weeks.
Today started Day 1 of what I'm calling actual run "Training".
I did a flat 5k in 22:00 (7:05 pace). Went out a little too fast and tried to survive. Not great, but not terrible given that my lifetime PR was 20:52 (6:44 pace) set back in 2013.
My plant the flag "Big Hairy Audacious" Run Goals are:
5k: Sub 20 mins (6:27 pace)
Half-Mary: 1:31:30 (Sub 7:00 min pace)
Marathon: Sub 3:15:00 (BQ standard - 7:27 pace)
I'm targeting the Whistle Stop Marathon in Northern Wisconsin on Oct 14th as I wanted a "fast" course but more importantly a high probability of cool temps.
Now I start training like a "Runner" for the next ~6 months... Wish me luck in raising my vDot by 5.5 points at age 41 on top of an already strong base...
check out the Tucson Marathon - usually cool , and fast point to point unless a headwind day
http://tucsonmarathon.com/general-info/
im starting to think about a run only focus this Fall/winter ad I try to go Ironman-free for the first time this century.
Regarding your miles per week question, the answer is TBD. My guess is 40-50 miles per week, but that'll depend on my build up until that point (could be more, but unlikely to be much less). I'll be doing more "speed work" than ever before so "miles" might not be the right metric for the next couple of months. I will ONLY be run "Training", but will probably be commuting by "easy" bike 1-2 days a week to flush out my legs and might swim ~1 day a week for recovery and will be also doing strength/stability/core/stretching/yoga as I can.
Tuscon seems fast, but with almost ~1,800' of net decline (St. George at net decline of ~2,560'), it almost feels like running a fully "downhill" race is a bit of a false result. Should that feel like cheating to me or am I overthinking it? Sacramento profile looks perfect and also seems fast. Both Tuscon and Sacramento are in December which means I'll need to be doing my longest runs in late-November in Minnesota, which might not be ideal. I think I'll stick with the Oct time frame as my primary race, but reserve the right to either outright change to a later one or race in Oct and then do another one ~8 weeks later if I'm unsatisfied with the result.
Watching and learning...
You had considered doing Functional training...Jess is doing it I think? Are you working that into the mix? Curious as I have been considering this training to shore up my weak/always broken right side including my lower back. I am foolishly signed up for 11/12 Rock N Roll Las Vegas Marathon and considering adding this post IMLP. I swear, adult peer pressure gets me into so much trouble!
1) did you ever find a virtual running coach? I have been looking for the equivalent of ttbikefit.com for running but haven't found anything that looks worthwhile yet
2) to one of your original commnent...I don't believe that big calves = slow runner. For a skinny guy I have disproportionately large calves and am a FOP runner in the triathlon world
3) I've been toying with another BQ attempt. (Boston 2012 was my last standalone marathon). We are both 40-44 with a 3:15 BQ......and Whistle Stop is in my home state. I could probably be convinced to sign up and race with/pace you. Note that a BQ would be for Boston 2019.
Second, assuming the BQ is the goal, is it just a "BQ time" or do you want to be wearing a non-Craigslist-purchased bib in Hopkinton on Patriots' Day? Assuming the latter, I would plan on subtracting at least 2:30 from your goal time/paces (I think the last two years required times to be 2:00-2:30 faster than list BQ times). For me, a 3:12 probably moves things into the ain't-gonna-happen category, but I'm not going to foolishly repeat a mistake by betting against you.
@Trish Marshall I've toyed with some of the Foundation stuff, but don't think I have the time/desire to fully commit to proper "Foundation Training", even though I still believe it would be good (great) for me. I'll be hamming and egging the core stuff for now. And I will also try to do more stretching and hopefully start some yoga (for the first time ever).
@Jeremy Behler 1) I found a local "stride coach" to help me with some form stuff and direct me towards actually training like a "runner" instead of an IM triathlete. So far I have been "underwhelmed" but I'm literally just getting started, so we'll see. He's starting me out with a lot less running volume than I expected and is insisting I get back on my bike for "easy" shake out workouts for the days immediately following my harder run "workouts". 2) I forgot that your calves are 3x the size of your biceps. 3) I haven't "officially" signed up for Whistle Stop yet, but rest assured, when I do I will be bullying you into joining me. Maybe you pace me for the first ~20-21 miles, then you can rip off the last 5-6 miles at ~6:30 pace so you can get your Boston Bib and I'll metronome my way to a 3:14:59 finish... or better yet, you can start 4-5 mins after me, then pace me to the finish line after you catch me at mile ~10.
@Mike Roberts I'm not planning on racing Boston, that's certainly realistic (expected) for @Jeremy Behler but not so much for me. I've planted my flag at a "BQ Standard" time for my AG (3:15) knowing full well that if I achieve this (super stretch) goal that I'll still be 2-3 mins too slow to actually earn a Boston Bib. I am fully at peace with that and even if I did pull off the impossible and run a 3:10 (which I will NOT because that means I screwed up my pacing entirely and then hung on), I wouldn't race Boston anyways... Regarding the 5k and half-mary goals, they're all kind of "independent" from each other. I always thought that for a muscular "slow" non-runner guy that there was something "special" about going under 20 mins for a 5k. The 13.1 time was basically because I wanted to be able to "run for a reasonably long time" at 7:00/mi pace. And the Marathon time was because I define a "real runner" as someone who can throw down a BQ marathon (if they actually train for it). So there you go. 3 totally independent and completely un-scientific goals and reasons. And they accidentally all happen to line up with a ~50 vDot (but that was a complete accident). The 5k and marathon times are more "goals" and the half-mary time is more of a fun and logical benchmark along the way between those two related goalposts.
it !
enjoy !