Just a couple thoughts relating to categories of plans: Beg/IM/Adv/Minimalist plans... is this really the right way to categorize the plans?
I've noticed with myself, that I need more focused run development than I do bike development. I've also noticed over the years that my needs, just finishing/base fitness versus speed have been different. Apart from volume, there isn't a lot of difference between the plans.
What about plans that differed according to the individual's need/objective, with each type of plan having indicators of where volume could be increased to target higher TSS weeks...
Intro Pans focused on finishing and developing base fitness? Run-Focused Plans for strong bikers that wish to run faster? Bike-focused plans for strong runners that wish to bike faster? Top-ten finisher plans?
Not sure these are right - but the thought being that there could be categories based on need/goal rather than on an assessment of Beginner-to-Advanced and that the plans could possibly benefit from being more specific to the need rather than segmented on volume.
Also - we have a wide range of athlete ages on the team... I'm finding that intensity and recovery cycle is changing with age, and this is possibly something to consider in the plan development.
Possibly there could be a kind of self-guided assessment, where the athlete plugs in recent race results and the plan is choses to be run/bike development?
@Rob Sabo - I agree with HI during the last few weeks of training. The risk/benefit seems out of whack.
"Daniels' Cruise intervals ... 5-6 x 1000s, with 1 min recovery. This collects a lot of time at LT (from interval 2 onwards) by making a quick ramp up in each interval, but gives some mental break every few minutes. I really think these would benefit a lot of athletes during their IM build ... they are a sly way of getting work done ... particularly after slogging through longer LT Sets earlier in the year."
@Rich Stanbaugh and @Robert Sabo I think you're referring to the run work in those final weeks? But I am also not sure. If you are talking about the run, we do struggle on how to keep some level of Run intensity in the program so that you stay sharp and are not "gold" by relentless volume. If only for diversity of training standpoint, but it will also keep you fairly sharp.
I agree much of this can be changed....head spinning!!!
Yes. I was talking about the run. I understand the goal but I'm just thinking Z3-4 intervals (mile or 1/2 mile repeats)would be more appropriate/safer and still get some speed into the legs during the last four weeks run wkos for an IM.
Same here, but I guess its hard to keep a good balance of volume/intensity when the bike ramps up.
Something that could be add is, let say in the first 10-12 weeks an increase in the intensity of the run. I had done this for HIM MT this June by adding one additional mile per week at z4-z5 on my long run, I ended the last one with 8X1M with 2' rest in between, that really helped me alot.. yes it was really hard but paid off well. Then I think the issue is to keep on that path and not loosing that work in the final 8 weeks where the bike takes alot of place
Thanks for asking. My minor and iterative pieces, for your consideration.
-reinstate the FTP work in the weekend long ride.
-require a compulsory day off every 10-14 days.
-provide an alternative workout for the second RR (for those snowflakes who have done an Ironman earlier in the season, or those who have done a bunch of Ironmans in their life and are dialed, or those who don’t like to learn … )
-provide an alternative workout for swim RR for advanced swimmers (or, those who follow Mark Robert’s advanced swim plan.) I found that after a season of red mist, there was no specific preparation for race day that a RR gave me that I hadn’t long since absorbed from those sessions. Might be different if you live on a lake and can do a 60’ open water swim.
-rethink the advice of “third week out from the race is actually a time to do a LOT of work” that was introduced this year. Or temper / individualize it: it might be helpful for someone who is building to the distance, but for those with a lot of work already accumulated by that time of the season, it is probably better to start reducing volume at that time.
-I‘m beginning to think the z3->z4 brick runs are “too much sizzle, not enough steak” for everyone. Even if they run 4 times a week instead of 6. I believe these might be better done as race pace, or EP. Or, split the difference and do the z3-z4 for the first few weeks of the in-season, but then race pace starting 6-8 weeks out.
-consider RPE guidance for the most key of the season’s key workouts. A long run in week 5 (or whatever) is a pretty key session to me, and should feel like a RPE score of 12 /20. If you aren’t hitting this score, you might be slacking. Or too tired. Or if you’re exceeding it, you’re going too hard.
-never more than a 3h ABP workout. However, many 3h ABP workouts over the season. And week-over-week guidance is “make it a game and try to beat your IF/TSS/NP from last week’s ABP.” This is targeting 3 hour critical power and trying to move the curve, which is a better proxy for 5h critical power than shorter stuff.
-Include a weekly exercise – in the plan and as a compulsory ‘to do’ – where the athlete writes a list (yes they have to write it) or at least 3 things that went well in the week, and at least three things they would like to improve.
-see my earlier comments (you pasted them above) about run Cruise Intervals in place of the occasional run LT session. Maybe weeks 4, 5, and 8, 9.
-I don’t think v02 biking has a place in the in-season.
-Conversely, I think there is a place for an occasional, stand-alone, 1 hour easy aerobic bike ride at some time. Maybe a Friday. If people need to get aggro about it, they can make it a special challenge to keep as low IF as they can. This is more a mental day than anything else.
I've been meaning to get to this but @Dave Tallo comments got me motivated. I have to contradict him on his first point.
- NO FTP or limited FTP at least for the beginner program. Dave has a huge engine backed by many years of tri, camps big bike weeks. Maybe this is where you could make the plans more divergent.
Perhaps this is my n=1, but I found the beginner plan to be almost right this year. I still had some fatigue in the mid weeks of the IM plan, dropped some swims and even a couple of the mid week FTP sessions for .85 stuff. I just could not get it done. This is also a factor of my fitness coming in I had 6-8 weeks and more like 4 weeks of consistent training coming in to the JOS. Also recall my run time, volume and intensity remained below plan levels through most of the IM Plan with weekly mileage topping out at 20, 21 and 23 mlies.
- Rest days are gold. I worked in a few 3-4 extra during that heavy load. You might want to consider an additional day maybe two for the beginner plan.
- The ABP work in the beginner plan was good I did take the op outs early on. The easy bikes Dave mention's could be incorporated early on in the beginner plan as
recovery or optional workout on Sunday then add in some z3 bike work.
- Can't remember if there was Vo2 in the beginner plan but as mentioned above FTP work was all I could handle.
Lots of good detail from @Dave Tallo, I'll admit, I haven't given it that much thought. As an older female, I do find the "Beginner," "Intermdiate," etc. designations to be too subjective and not descriptive enough. I mean, sure, I'm going to have to look at the plans and make a determination as to which one best suits my ability level, available time, etc., but I like the idea of have the plans written to focus on the type or amount of training (i.e. 10-12 hrs/wk avg with run focus), something like that.
Being new to EN this year, couple of thoughts from a former outsider. 1. Perhaps think about the plans along the dimensions of age and need/goal (as @Rich Stanbaugh noted). Since we are all age groupers in the haus, including age as a variable aligns more with the age grouper focus of EN as well as how we race (e.g. In age groups!). I get the concept of Beginning/Intermediate/Adv lining up with your 3 year plan approach, but it seems like 'age' is a variable that is being ignored even though all our race results are grouped by age! Plus, it just takes longer for older athletes to recover and I found I could really use a rest day more often perhaps 1x per week. I'm 56 years old. 2. Perhaps schedule time for strength and stretching in the plans, as well as equipment maintenance (cleaning bike, etc.). I found these were more likely to get done if I had them scheduled.
@Al Truscott is a great resource in terms of how he modifies plans for rest/recovery while also qualifying for KONA in the older AG categories. You make valid points. Reach out to Al, for he has walked that path with great success.
Here are my compiled recommendations from your input...I have a few subtle tweaks of my own, but nothing radical. Please review and add any final feedback by friday 12/22 so I can get to work on the full plans...much of this will carry down to the half stuff, FWIW.
+++++++++++++ BEGIN NOTES ++++++++++++++
How to manage the levels for the Full Plans (and others) moving forward…
I think the best option here is to break it down as follows, where levels 1,2,3 are similar to the OS in that you are building up in difficulty / experience.
Bike Focused Full, Levels 1/2/3
Run Focused Full, Levels 1/2/3
Masters Full, Levels 1/2/3
SWIM EDITS
No real comments here other than they are redundant and boring...will work on that.
BIKE EDITS
Remove ton of work from the “three weeks out” part of the plan...it’s too much for most people.
On Sundays never more than a 3h ABP workout. However, many 3h ABP workouts over the season. And week-over-week guidance is “make it a game and try to beat your IF/TSS/NP from last week’s ABP.” For L1 plans, these start off with easy bikes then build to ABP
reinstate the FTP work in the weekend long ride for L2, L3…..L1 remains very endurance focused.
RUN EDITS
Focused run Intensity earlier in the Build...say Weeks 12 to 6? This would be something like "Daniels' Cruise intervals ... 5-6 x 1000s, with 1 min recovery. This collects a lot of time at LT (from interval 2 onwards) by making a quick ramp up in each interval, but gives some mental break every few minutes. I really think these would benefit a lot of athletes during their IM build ... they are a sly way of getting work done ... particularly after slogging through longer LT Sets earlier in the year.”
Remove High Intensity Running at end of Plans, replace run intensity with Z3-4 intervals (mile or 1/2 mile repeats)would be more appropriate/safer and still get some speed into the legs during the last four weeks run wkos for an IM.
Long Run, put Optional intensity at the start or end of the run.
Keep brick workouts as Race Pace, leave intensity on Interval run or Long Run day (optional)
DAYS OFF
require a day off every 10-14 days.
optional “extra” days off for L1 plans
RACE SIMULATION ALTERNATIVE
provide an alternative workout for the second RR (for those snowflakes who have done an Ironman earlier in the season, or those who have done a bunch of Ironmans in their life and are dialed, or those who don’t like to learn … )
provide an alternative workout for swim RR for advanced swimmers (or, those who follow Mark Robert’s advanced swim plan.) I found that after a season of red mist, there was no specific preparation for race day that a RR gave me that I hadn’t long since absorbed from those sessions. Might be different if you live on a lake and can do a 60’ open water swim.
OTHER ADDITIONS
Perhaps schedule time for strength and stretching in the plans
equipment maintenance (cleaning bike, etc.). I found these were more likely to get done if I had them scheduled.
Parking Lot
Consider RPE guidance for the most key of the season’s key workouts. A long run in week 5 (or whatever) is a pretty key session to me, and should feel like a RPE score of 12 /20. If you aren’t hitting this score, you might be slacking. Or too tired. Or if you’re exceeding it, you’re going too hard.
Include a weekly exercise – in the plan and as a compulsory ‘to do’ – where the athlete writes a list (yes they have to write it) or at least 3 things that went well in the week, and at least three things they would like to improve.
Conversely, I think there is a place for an occasional, stand-alone, 1 hour easy aerobic bike ride at some time. Maybe a Friday. If people need to get aggro about it, they can make it a special challenge to keep as low IF as they can. This is more a mental day than anything else.
@Coach Patrick - One comment on the Monday swim workout. After Saturday's 3-5 hour ride with Z3-Z4 intervals and Sunday's ABP rides, it's hard mentally and physically to do a quality speed or strength swim session on Monday, which is suppose to be more of a recovery day. Can Monday's swim be more of a recovery/70% effort type swim, which will help flush out the leg muscles and aid in recovery? Thanks.
Some comments and a couple thoughts that maybe should have come out last round.
Swim
- I come from a background of repetition and have no problem with the swim workouts. Having said that cater to the masses as I'm probably in the minority.
Bike
- Is there a way to work in the bike test to the back end of week two for the swim camp if its needed? I know I typically have trouble moving from the OS shorter rides to the IM distance stuff. This issues should be reduced with the now required 150' OS rides on the weekend. When tired I used to do just the main set in the OS. This coupled with the fact that I can get away with a short warm up made some workouts very short in the 2015/2016 OS'
- My best year of transition to the IM plan was last year were I did additional biking on the weekend which was optional and 2015 when I took on extra work in transition (had down time in the final week(s) of the OS as I recall) and did 4 days 9 hours on the trainer prior to the start of the IM plan. Last year I knew my FTP and skipped the test on week 12 of the IM plan. I believe I got a big boost from that first big day to open the plan.
- Beyond the 3h ABP TSS. Should/could you provide some more guidance for TSS increase for the long ride as well, maybe this is redundant as its build in to the workouts. That is I started the IM plan big day 4 hour ride with 188 TSS. This went up weekly as follows 197, 218, wk off, 233, 245, 241, 212 (Tired no zn 3), 192 (bike crash only 4 hours and no further long rides to Lake Placid). My Lake Placed TSS was 303 and I would have like to seen 250-260 prior to this last race rehearsal but could not push that last week prior to the crash. I was feeling good going in to the 192 TSS RR crash and believe I would have had this ride but...
Run
- The run endurance for L1 is great, watch the number of cruise intervals particularly during weeks with big days and bike tests. Looking at my logs for last year there was mostly TRP with some Z2 and very little Z3 running. Strides were sprinkled in but relatively little hard running. I got to the finish line running most of the marathon on maybe 3 week of around 20 miles of running.
Other additions
- Good to have it in the plans as more will likely do/plan for stretching bike maintenance etc. For me there are certain things I should be doing (stretching/exercises) and when in IM plan I do dedicate 10-15 minutes stretching most nights.
Additional Thoughts
- My goal when feeling okay or better was to log an extra 5-15 minutes
of
ride time mostly zn2 to get the extra saddle time pretty much on
any ride. I had a similar thing with swimming 1-200M extra as it add
add up over the 12 weeks. Run I was more cautious and took down weeks
when needed.
Parking Lot - For most I would think the RPE would be for going too hard or help get individuals out of the grey zone. That is not going hard enough on say the cruise intervals but going too hard on the long runs. - The 1 hour easy aerobic bike could be very useful to the L1 people. The aforementioned 4 day trainer ride in 2015 day 3 was a 60' recovery ride at .53. I still had the inclination to push this ride early on and had to back off. Forum thread https://endurancenation.vanillacommunities.com/discussion/18453/plan-for-3-4-days-7-10-hours-on-the-trainer#latest I believe these sessions could be useful early on in place of an ABP ride or on the optional off day.
Happy to discuss any of these points and hope these help.
I appreciate this point @Dave Tallo , as it relates to me planning my season. I'll revisit w/ coach in my micro later. Thanks!
"-rethink the advice of “third week out from the race is actually a time to do a LOT of work” that was introduced this year. Or temper / individualize it: it might be helpful for someone who is building to the distance, but for those with a lot of work already accumulated by that time of the season, it is probably better to start reducing volume at that time. "
I'm sceptical about the value of FTP work within Sat ABP rides in last 6 weeks before IM, especially for experienced and/or older athletes. For me, i get more out of gping 2.5-3 hours non stop @ HIM pace, with easier IM pace work before and after. The FTP work tires me out too much to either get a good 4-5 hours on Sat and/or get a good ABP ride on Sun. Two separate sessions of 60 minutes in the weeks 7-3 before the race feels better. But then, I have unlimited free time.
One other thought, about inserting FTP work into the later half of the plans. I've found great value in doing an Olympic or Sprint race 1-2 weeks before an IM. The race replaces one swim, one bike, and one run workout that week, the hardest one in each case. It serves to clean out the cobwebs and deal with pre-race jitters. And it is useful as a real world test of equipment and transition strategies. They are short enough that recovery before the big event is not an issue.
Despite my plans for this coming November, an HIM is NOT a good idea in this time frame.
HUGE amount of work and wisdom in this update I must say. Thanks @Coach Patrick
BIKE EDITS
Remove ton of work from the “three weeks out” part of the plan...it’s too much for most people. L3 may need to consider CTL here. Higher CTL/experience levels don't want to begin taper too early.
On Sundays never more than a 3h ABP workout. However, many 3h ABP workouts over the season. And week-over-week guidance is “make it a game and try to beat your IF/TSS/NP from last week’s ABP.” For L1 plans, these start off with easy bikes then build to ABP - Good thought and consider a caveat that promotes a gradual increase week over week of not more than 10% for Bike TSS...more than that and you simply begin to dig a hole that compromises the weekly run TSS....
reinstate the FTP work in the weekend long ride for L2, L3…..L1 remains very endurance focused - no for L1, Optional L2, mandatory for L3. FTP work is so important and it becomes tricky business inside of a 4-5 hour ride, but one that L3 should be able to manage.
RUN EDITS
Focused run Intensity earlier in the Build...say Weeks 12 to 6? This would be something like "Daniels' Cruise intervals ... 5-6 x 1000s, with 1 min recovery. This collects a lot of time at LT (from interval 2 onwards) by making a quick ramp up in each interval, but gives some mental break every few minutes. I really think these would benefit a lot of athletes during their IM build ... they are a sly way of getting work done ... particularly after slogging through longer LT Sets earlier in the year.” Like it.......but be careful here with injury risk and balancing total TSS load with strong bike work.
Remove High Intensity Running at end of Plans, replace run intensity with Z3-4 intervals (mile or 1/2 mile repeats)would be more appropriate/safer and still get some speed into the legs during the last four weeks run wkos for an IM. End of plan - IMO TRP to Z3, no Z4 work, not much to be gained but risk of injury and TSS overload too close to race event.
Long Run, put Optional intensity at the start or end of the run. End of run option for intensity on Long run no higher than Z3 IMO....
Keep brick workouts as Race Pace, leave intensity on Interval run or Long Run day (optional) Yup.
DAYS OFF
require a day off every 10-14 days. For L3, day off or optional Swim form/focus which speeds recovery......
optional “extra” days off for L1 plans
RACE SIMULATION ALTERNATIVE
provide an alternative workout for the second RR (for those snowflakes who have done an Ironman earlier in the season, or those who have done a bunch of Ironmans in their life and are dialed, or those who don’t like to learn … ) Second RR leading up to Race Day - for me, high priority and high value no matter what level.....gonna be hard to convince me otherwise here.....
provide an alternative workout for swim RR for advanced swimmers (or, those who follow Mark Robert’s advanced swim plan.) I found that after a season of red mist, there was no specific preparation for race day that a RR gave me that I hadn’t long since absorbed from those sessions. Might be different if you live on a lake and can do a 60’ open water swim. IMO, mandatory RR swim distance up front, same day as bike run RR for L3 and L2......just really reminds you of the nutrition requirements in play for race day and how your bike, run will be impacted if you swim first.
OTHER ADDITIONS
Perhaps schedule time for strength and stretching in the plans - Optional (good stuff but, I can't seem to find the time for strength within 8 weeks of an IM race plan).
equipment maintenance (cleaning bike, etc.). I found these were more likely to get done if I had them scheduled.
Parking Lot
Consider RPE guidance for the most key of the season’s key workouts. A long run in week 5 (or whatever) is a pretty key session to me, and should feel like a RPE score of 12 /20. If you aren’t hitting this score, you might be slacking. Or too tired. Or if you’re exceeding it, you’re going too hard. Really good suggestion. As one becomes more experience, more fit, your HR just doesn't move around as much and your RPE becomes the primary tool with HR, power, pace as secondary, nice to have data points.
Include a weekly exercise – in the plan and as a compulsory ‘to do’ – where the athlete writes a list (yes they have to write it) or at least 3 things that went well in the week, and at least three things they would like to improve. Maybe mandatory "Write this in the weekly forum post" so that you get feedback and guidance from others.......would be even more beneficial.....
Conversely, I think there is a place for an occasional, stand-alone, 1 hour easy aerobic bike ride at some time. Maybe a Friday. If people need to get aggro about it, they can make it a special challenge to keep as low IF as they can. This is more a mental day than anything else. I love the Friday Z2 bike work - helps me recover, adds additional volume, doesn't seem to compromise my Sat/Sun work.
1. I am definitely a fan of the Levels (1, 2, 3) and Masters designations. Puts more of a quantitative measurement to the plans, vs a qualitative one. 2. Also a big fan of the addition of TSS to the bike workouts this past season. As things evolve, consideration of CTL, ATL, etc., could be factors in determining if/when rest or more work is needed. (Personally, I keep a close eye on my Fitness, Fatigue and Form numbers in the mobile app to determine when rest/recovery is needed.) 3. "Other additions": I like the idea of putting strength and stretching in, esp as mandatory workouts in the L1 and Masters plans. They could be optional for the L2 and L3. I know that they help me with injury-prevention, but if they're optional, they're the first thing to go when I'm pressed for time. I would do them if they're built into the plan. 4. "Parking Lot": Like the idea of the optional stand-alone easy aerobic bikes, esp again for L1 and Masters plans. Could also be subbed in for a run if fatigue is a factor.
Okay, the first "2018 EN*FULL, Bike Focused 20 week" plan is now available for you to review and give me feedback on...you can find it under the Move / Change section of the EN Plan page.
Remember this is the first round of "true" plans with L1, L2 and L3 guidance in all of the workouts...I did my best to make it readable so we can keep this trend rolling as I really think it's a step forward for our plans. Please include feedback on that.
Also these are the first Bike vs Run focused plans, and you can see the specific edits below....if you think more or less should be done here, let me know. The plans get "very full" at the end of each training block, so I used the Fridays as swing days but I am open to other changes as you recommend.
Here's what I added (and didn't add, at the bottom).
+++++++ Actual Plan Updates ++++++++++
Swim Edits:
Made Mondays a Recovery / Skill swim
Added L1 to L3 swim guidance
Added red mist workout to final weeks of the plan.
Removed fourth swim day in weeks 14 and 16...max number of swim days is three.
Bike Changes:
Updated ABP rides with new effort guidance.
Gave L1 athletes room to grow with early Sunday rides being more endurance than ABP (but gradually shifting over time).
Made last 6 weeks to race very race specific in terms of pacing.
Need to get new TSS numbers for these weekend WKOs.
Removed the bike pile of work from week 18 / “three weeks out” part of the plan. Instead went with long rides on sat/sun and the long run on Thurs? (More advanced = more work).
Run Changes:
Replaced Tempo Runs in Weeks 20 through 13 with Strides
Pushed Run FTP work into the first 8 weeks of the 20 week plans.
Added Daniels Cruise Intervals to Weeks 9 to 15 of the plans instead of standard FTP work.
Added Z3 / HMP work to weeks 16, 17 & 18 instead of FTP work.
Removed Hill Runs from Wks 9 to 16, replaced with strides.
Updated the Race Rehearsal Run
Added Z3 intensity to the beginning of the weekly long run.
Days Off:
Recommended Day Off on alternating Mondays in the long course plan from Weeks 9 to 19, L3 has an optional swim day.
General Improvements:
Maintained basic week flow for swim/bike/run even in final weeks.
Added a weekly “accountability” exercise where athletes write a list (yes they have to write it) or at least 3 things that went well in the week, and at least three things they would like to improve.
Added monthly equipment maintenance reminder.
Bike Focus Plans:
Friday Zone 2 Ride as bridge from Thursday Long Run to bigger Weekend Volume.
Added Challenge Ride to Weeks 9 to 14 to merge Z3 and Z2 work.
Run Focus Plan PROPOSED CHANGES:
Friday is additional Strides Day.
Sunday Brick Run off the ABP Bike.
NOT INCLUDED
Consider RPE guidance for the most key of the season’s key workouts. A long run in week 5 (or whatever) is a pretty key session to me, and should feel like a RPE score of 12 /20. If you aren’t hitting this score, you might be slacking. Or too tired. Or if you’re exceeding it, you’re going too hard.
My goal when feeling okay or better was to log an extra 5-15 minutes of ride time mostly zn2 to get the extra saddle time pretty much on any ride. I had a similar thing with swimming 1-200M extra as it add add up over the 12 weeks.
Masters - I've found great value in doing an Olympic or Sprint race 1-2 weeks before an IM. The race replaces one swim, one bike, and one run workout that week, the hardest one in each case. It serves to clean out the cobwebs and deal with pre-race jitters. And it is useful as a real world test of equipment and transition strategies. They are short enough that recovery before the big event is not an issue.
I took a peak. One thing that stood out is teammate accountability. It would be great to see this happen.
"You can enter this in your training log or, if you are a member of the Team, please post this to the Weekly Accountability Thread in your Race Forum online here."
I read all weeks and here are my comments/questions:
week 1 - Tuesday same work for all L ?
Week 1 - all swims total dont add up to 1800M - Iget 2300M but 1800 if you exclude warm up, ms1 is unclear to me if you need to repeat 3X or 1X
Level based guidance is a great way to have everything in the same page and do not need to navigate around the plans
Dont know if you should specify that warm up time is included in the total workout time, I know it is included, but if you had specify for the swim on week 1, maybe specify for the run/bike ?
weeks 3 &4 + other Monday - Monday swim, total dont add up 10X100, plan says total 900M
Why are strides not the same duration between Sat and Tuesday ?
2 rest days between week 4 and 5 for l1 and l2 ?
Week 6 Tuesday run l3 - still 2M or the goal is to add a mile every week ?
Week 7 swim, total dont add up
Week 9 - Tuesday runs are now in KM ? as such for L2, its a bit less work than what they were used to do in prior weeks. 2x1m= 3.2km vs 3km
love the bike challenge for those like me that wanna be a better cyclist !
Wednesday bike weeks 10 and following, level 1 seems harder than level 3 ?
Run split level 1 - no guidance for the the remaining 10'
Monday week 13 - the instructions are double
good idea to bring the red mist swim sets !
cap the interval run at 6X1k ?
camp week big day - no swim before the bike as it used to be ? same for week 18
Eyeballed these and they look great! One piece that I want to reinforce - applicable to levels 1, 2 and 3 - is getting practice riding in the aerobars. And not sitting up. Take a look at a lot of an IM field at about mile 85, and you will see people sitting bolt upright, and effectively tossing away 30+ watts that they spent their season building, or rendering their P5 as aerodynamic as a barn door, with the extra drag.
So, note in the plans that they are practicing this skill. For levels 1 and 2, on the Saturday, it's doing whatever possible to make sure that they are staying in aero for the last 90 mins of their ride. No matter what. For advanced level, it's this, plus the Sunday. You can even make it a challenge to increase the amount of time spent in the aerobars over last week's ride. The main point is to build this, progressively, over the season, like other stuff (and the great part is it doesn’t happen at the expense of other stuff ... there’s no additional metabolic cost or tss associated this this ... it’s just layered on top of whatever else is happen8ng in the wok at that moment.).
I guess this becomes more important at about week 10 of 20, and then becomes critical at week 15 through 20.
General Comments - This plan appears to have quite a bit of run intensity still given the bike focus. - I know I asked for some days off and like some of them you have but I believe the swim distance and frequency has suffered too much particularly on L1 and 2 with all the off days. I don't have my logs on my new computer but believe that we need to ramp up to 3X swims at least every other week and getting in at least a couple more 4000M swim days. Perhaps the trade off is going to a 4x running week every other week as it's a bike focus. - I like the TSS targets.
Specific comments WK 1 - Tuesday Threshold 4X1/2 mile is the same of all levels. This is about the same amount of work we are doing in the OS with reduced volume. Not sure if this threshold work is detrimental to down stream workouts for the L2 & L3 but perhaps more of a focus on durability and topping out z2/z3 work for most run in the L1. This comment would hold for most weeks through out the plan. Maybe you could build in to some z4 in later weeks maybe 7-12 then back off again as volume starts to ramp up.
Wk3 - L1 only 1 swim 1650M, several weeks of only 1 swim. I've done IM on 1-2 swims a week and 2-3 and the former I've felt tired arms and struggled in the water a bit when both the distance and frequency are down. Perhaps a trade off of 2X/week is more distance per session but again nothing substitutes for that more consistent 3rd session a week. WK 8-9 - I like the 2 days off after the 1st big day particularly for L1. In wk 9 this is where you could work in an optional swim for L2 and give them a 3X week.
Wk9 - Cruise intervals are the same for L1&2. Again focus on the bike intensity of the plan and more durability particularly for L1. Perhaps a 2nd session with some Z3 work for L1. -Wednesday Bike session has more TSS and higher IF than L3. Check this workout through this an later weeks. - The split run worked well for me last year particularly helping with ramping up my mileage.
Wk11 - Like the L1 Challenge ride intensities. When there was FTP work in prior years it tended to push me over the edge and while I'm a little concerned about the amount of FTP work in some of the long rides I realize that this is a bike focus. Perhaps a note for the L1's like the ABP rides it's okay to dial the intensity back should you not be feeling it.
WK 16&17 - Camp week takes a big toll on me. With only 1 day off perhaps some optional zn3 work on Tuesday's run for L1 and I might even reduce some of the FTP work on Wednesday. This would help set me up better to have a good run simulation on Thursday of wk 17.
Added Run & Bike Warm up info to all Week 1 and Week 9 workouts.
Added Aerobar time reminder to Saturday Rides.
Made Week 11, 13, 15, 17, 19 Monday swims optional for L2 to increase swim volume.
Gave L3 athletes option to move Camp Week / Race Sim swims to the morning of their Race Simulation.
Adjusted L1 Tuesday run and Wednesday FTP work to recover from Camp Week.
Specified 4,000yd swims in weeks 12 thru 19.
Fixed all Wed Bike FTP discrepancies for weeks 9 thru 20.
Reduced L1 FTP run intervals to Zone 3 for weeks 1 thru 7.
Fixed Week 9 L1 cruise interval distance.
Fixed lots of bad swim math.
There were some changes I didn't make, you'll see them in italics...
Level-based guidance is great; not sure if total workout time changes for the different levels? Workout time doesn’t discreetly change...rather those with a shorter main set have more “remaining time at Zone 2” guidance if they so choose.
Volume and time concerns for weeks 1 through 7... Remember this is a 20-week plan you are looking at, so most of you won't ever do these early parts...these are for folks who don't do an OS, etc.
Note for the L1's like the ABP rides it's okay to dial the intensity back should you not be feeling it. This note is already in there. Why are strides not the same duration between Sat and Tuesday ? - because Saturday has a longer ride.
Week 6 Tuesday run l3 - still 2M or the goal is to add a mile every week - cap is 2 x 1 mile in Bike Focused Plan.
Week 9 - Tuesday runs are now in KM ? as such for L2, its a bit less work than what they were used to do in prior weeks. 2x1m= 3.2km vs 3km I am okay with it; we are keeping speed but making room for volume.
cap the interval run at 6X1k ? Yes, this is almost 4 x 1 miles. It’s enough!
Comments
I've noticed with myself, that I need more focused run development than I do bike development. I've also noticed over the years that my needs, just finishing/base fitness versus speed have been different. Apart from volume, there isn't a lot of difference between the plans.
What about plans that differed according to the individual's need/objective, with each type of plan having indicators of where volume could be increased to target higher TSS weeks...
Intro Pans focused on finishing and developing base fitness?
Run-Focused Plans for strong bikers that wish to run faster?
Bike-focused plans for strong runners that wish to bike faster?
Top-ten finisher plans?
Not sure these are right - but the thought being that there could be categories based on need/goal rather than on an assessment of Beginner-to-Advanced and that the plans could possibly benefit from being more specific to the need rather than segmented on volume.
Also - we have a wide range of athlete ages on the team... I'm finding that intensity and recovery cycle is changing with age, and this is possibly something to consider in the plan development.
Possibly there could be a kind of self-guided assessment, where the athlete plugs in recent race results and the plan is choses to be run/bike development?
@Rob Sabo - I agree with HI during the last few weeks of training. The risk/benefit seems out of whack.
"Daniels' Cruise intervals ... 5-6 x 1000s, with 1 min recovery. This collects a lot of time at LT (from interval 2 onwards) by making a quick ramp up in each interval, but gives some mental break every few minutes. I really think these would benefit a lot of athletes during their IM build ... they are a sly way of getting work done ... particularly after slogging through longer LT Sets earlier in the year."
@Rich Stanbaugh and @Robert Sabo I think you're referring to the run work in those final weeks? But I am also not sure. If you are talking about the run, we do struggle on how to keep some level of Run intensity in the program so that you stay sharp and are not "gold" by relentless volume. If only for diversity of training standpoint, but it will also keep you fairly sharp.
I agree much of this can be changed....head spinning!!!
Something that could be add is, let say in the first 10-12 weeks an increase in the intensity of the run. I had done this for HIM MT this June by adding one additional mile per week at z4-z5 on my long run, I ended the last one with 8X1M with 2' rest in between, that really helped me alot.. yes it was really hard but paid off well. Then I think the issue is to keep on that path and not loosing that work in the final 8 weeks where the bike takes alot of place
Thanks for asking. My minor and iterative pieces, for your consideration.
-reinstate the FTP work in the weekend long ride.
-require a compulsory day off every 10-14 days.
-provide an alternative workout for the second RR (for those snowflakes who have done an Ironman earlier in the season, or those who have done a bunch of Ironmans in their life and are dialed, or those who don’t like to learn … )
-provide an alternative workout for swim RR for advanced swimmers (or, those who follow Mark Robert’s advanced swim plan.) I found that after a season of red mist, there was no specific preparation for race day that a RR gave me that I hadn’t long since absorbed from those sessions. Might be different if you live on a lake and can do a 60’ open water swim.
-rethink the advice of “third week out from the race is actually a time to do a LOT of work” that was introduced this year. Or temper / individualize it: it might be helpful for someone who is building to the distance, but for those with a lot of work already accumulated by that time of the season, it is probably better to start reducing volume at that time.
-I‘m beginning to think the z3->z4 brick runs are “too much sizzle, not enough steak” for everyone. Even if they run 4 times a week instead of 6. I believe these might be better done as race pace, or EP. Or, split the difference and do the z3-z4 for the first few weeks of the in-season, but then race pace starting 6-8 weeks out.
-consider RPE guidance for the most key of the season’s key workouts. A long run in week 5 (or whatever) is a pretty key session to me, and should feel like a RPE score of 12 /20. If you aren’t hitting this score, you might be slacking. Or too tired. Or if you’re exceeding it, you’re going too hard.
-never more than a 3h ABP workout. However, many 3h ABP workouts over the season. And week-over-week guidance is “make it a game and try to beat your IF/TSS/NP from last week’s ABP.” This is targeting 3 hour critical power and trying to move the curve, which is a better proxy for 5h critical power than shorter stuff.
-Include a weekly exercise – in the plan and as a compulsory ‘to do’ – where the athlete writes a list (yes they have to write it) or at least 3 things that went well in the week, and at least three things they would like to improve.
-see my earlier comments (you pasted them above) about run Cruise Intervals in place of the occasional run LT session. Maybe weeks 4, 5, and 8, 9.
-I don’t think v02 biking has a place in the in-season.
-Conversely, I think there is a place for an occasional, stand-alone, 1 hour easy aerobic bike ride at some time. Maybe a Friday. If people need to get aggro about it, they can make it a special challenge to keep as low IF as they can. This is more a mental day than anything else.
I've been meaning to get to this but @Dave Tallo comments got me motivated. I have to contradict him on his first point.
- NO FTP or limited FTP at least for the beginner program. Dave has a huge engine backed by many years of tri, camps big bike weeks. Maybe this is where you could make the plans more divergent.
Perhaps this is my n=1, but I found the beginner plan to be almost right this year. I still had some fatigue in the mid weeks of the IM plan, dropped some swims and even a couple of the mid week FTP sessions for .85 stuff. I just could not get it done. This is also a factor of my fitness coming in I had 6-8 weeks and more like 4 weeks of consistent training coming in to the JOS. Also recall my run time, volume and intensity remained below plan levels through most of the IM Plan with weekly mileage topping out at 20, 21 and 23 mlies.
- Rest days are gold. I worked in a few 3-4 extra during that heavy load. You might want to consider an additional day maybe two for the beginner plan.
- The ABP work in the beginner plan was good I did take the op outs early on. The easy bikes Dave mention's could be incorporated early on in the beginner plan as recovery or optional workout on Sunday then add in some z3 bike work.
- Can't remember if there was Vo2 in the beginner plan but as mentioned above FTP work was all I could handle.
1. Perhaps think about the plans along the dimensions of age and need/goal (as @Rich Stanbaugh noted). Since we are all age groupers in the haus, including age as a variable aligns more with the age grouper focus of EN as well as how we race (e.g. In age groups!). I get the concept of Beginning/Intermediate/Adv lining up with your 3 year plan approach, but it seems like 'age' is a variable that is being ignored even though all our race results are grouped by age! Plus, it just takes longer for older athletes to recover and I found I could really use a rest day more often perhaps 1x per week. I'm 56 years old.
2. Perhaps schedule time for strength and stretching in the plans, as well as equipment maintenance (cleaning bike, etc.). I found these were more likely to get done if I had them scheduled.
@Al Truscott is a great resource in terms of how he modifies plans for rest/recovery while also qualifying for KONA in the older AG categories. You make valid points. Reach out to Al, for he has walked that path with great success.
SS
Here are my compiled recommendations from your input...I have a few subtle tweaks of my own, but nothing radical. Please review and add any final feedback by friday 12/22 so I can get to work on the full plans...much of this will carry down to the half stuff, FWIW.
+++++++++++++ BEGIN NOTES ++++++++++++++
How to manage the levels for the Full Plans (and others) moving forward…
I think the best option here is to break it down as follows, where levels 1,2,3 are similar to the OS in that you are building up in difficulty / experience.
SWIM EDITS
No real comments here other than they are redundant and boring...will work on that.
BIKE EDITS
RUN EDITS
DAYS OFF
RACE SIMULATION ALTERNATIVE
OTHER ADDITIONS
Parking Lot
Some comments and a couple thoughts that maybe should have come out last round.
Swim
- I come from a background of repetition and have no problem with the swim workouts. Having said that cater to the masses as I'm probably in the minority.
Bike
- Is there a way to work in the bike test to the back end of week two for the swim camp if its needed? I know I typically have trouble moving from the OS shorter rides to the IM distance stuff. This issues should be reduced with the now required 150' OS rides on the weekend. When tired I used to do just the main set in the OS. This coupled with the fact that I can get away with a short warm up made some workouts very short in the 2015/2016 OS'
- My best year of transition to the IM plan was last year were I did additional biking on the weekend which was optional and 2015 when I took on extra work in transition (had down time in the final week(s) of the OS as I recall) and did 4 days 9 hours on the trainer prior to the start of the IM plan. Last year I knew my FTP and skipped the test on week 12 of the IM plan. I believe I got a big boost from that first big day to open the plan.
- Beyond the 3h ABP TSS. Should/could you provide some more guidance for TSS increase for the long ride as well, maybe this is redundant as its build in to the workouts. That is I started the IM plan big day 4 hour ride with 188 TSS. This went up weekly as follows 197, 218, wk off, 233, 245, 241, 212 (Tired no zn 3), 192 (bike crash only 4 hours and no further long rides to Lake Placid). My Lake Placed TSS was 303 and I would have like to seen 250-260 prior to this last race rehearsal but could not push that last week prior to the crash. I was feeling good going in to the 192 TSS RR crash and believe I would have had this ride but...
Run
- The run endurance for L1 is great, watch the number of cruise intervals particularly during weeks with big days and bike tests. Looking at my logs for last year there was mostly TRP with some Z2 and very little Z3 running. Strides were sprinkled in but relatively little hard running. I got to the finish line running most of the marathon on maybe 3 week of around 20 miles of running.
Other additions
- Good to have it in the plans as more will likely do/plan for stretching bike maintenance etc. For me there are certain things I should be doing (stretching/exercises) and when in IM plan I do dedicate 10-15 minutes stretching most nights.
Additional Thoughts
- My goal when feeling okay or better was to log an extra 5-15 minutes of ride time mostly zn2 to get the extra saddle time pretty much on any ride. I had a similar thing with swimming 1-200M extra as it add add up over the 12 weeks. Run I was more cautious and took down weeks when needed.
Parking Lot
- For most I would think the RPE would be for going too hard or help get individuals out of the grey zone. That is not going hard enough on say the cruise intervals but going too hard on the long runs.
- The 1 hour easy aerobic bike could be very useful to the L1 people. The aforementioned 4 day trainer ride in 2015 day 3 was a 60' recovery ride at .53. I still had the inclination to push this ride early on and had to back off. Forum thread https://endurancenation.vanillacommunities.com/discussion/18453/plan-for-3-4-days-7-10-hours-on-the-trainer#latest
I believe these sessions could be useful early on in place of an ABP ride or on the optional off day.
Happy to discuss any of these points and hope these help.
"-rethink the advice of “third week out from the race is actually a time to do a LOT of work” that was introduced this year. Or temper / individualize it: it might be helpful for someone who is building to the distance, but for those with a lot of work already accumulated by that time of the season, it is probably better to start reducing volume at that time. "
Despite my plans for this coming November, an HIM is NOT a good idea in this time frame.
BIKE EDITS
RUN EDITS
DAYS OFF
RACE SIMULATION ALTERNATIVE
OTHER ADDITIONS
Parking Lot
2. Also a big fan of the addition of TSS to the bike workouts this past season. As things evolve, consideration of CTL, ATL, etc., could be factors in determining if/when rest or more work is needed. (Personally, I keep a close eye on my Fitness, Fatigue and Form numbers in the mobile app to determine when rest/recovery is needed.)
3. "Other additions": I like the idea of putting strength and stretching in, esp as mandatory workouts in the L1 and Masters plans. They could be optional for the L2 and L3. I know that they help me with injury-prevention, but if they're optional, they're the first thing to go when I'm pressed for time. I would do them if they're built into the plan.
4. "Parking Lot": Like the idea of the optional stand-alone easy aerobic bikes, esp again for L1 and Masters plans. Could also be subbed in for a run if fatigue is a factor.
Okay, the first "2018 EN*FULL, Bike Focused 20 week" plan is now available for you to review and give me feedback on...you can find it under the Move / Change section of the EN Plan page.
Remember this is the first round of "true" plans with L1, L2 and L3 guidance in all of the workouts...I did my best to make it readable so we can keep this trend rolling as I really think it's a step forward for our plans. Please include feedback on that.
Also these are the first Bike vs Run focused plans, and you can see the specific edits below....if you think more or less should be done here, let me know. The plans get "very full" at the end of each training block, so I used the Fridays as swing days but I am open to other changes as you recommend.
Here's what I added (and didn't add, at the bottom).
+++++++ Actual Plan Updates ++++++++++
Swim Edits:
Made Mondays a Recovery / Skill swim
Added L1 to L3 swim guidance
Added red mist workout to final weeks of the plan.
Removed fourth swim day in weeks 14 and 16...max number of swim days is three.
Bike Changes:
Updated ABP rides with new effort guidance.
Gave L1 athletes room to grow with early Sunday rides being more endurance than ABP (but gradually shifting over time).
Made last 6 weeks to race very race specific in terms of pacing.
Need to get new TSS numbers for these weekend WKOs.
Removed the bike pile of work from week 18 / “three weeks out” part of the plan. Instead went with long rides on sat/sun and the long run on Thurs? (More advanced = more work).
Run Changes:
Replaced Tempo Runs in Weeks 20 through 13 with Strides
Pushed Run FTP work into the first 8 weeks of the 20 week plans.
Added Daniels Cruise Intervals to Weeks 9 to 15 of the plans instead of standard FTP work.
Added Z3 / HMP work to weeks 16, 17 & 18 instead of FTP work.
Removed Hill Runs from Wks 9 to 16, replaced with strides.
Updated the Race Rehearsal Run
Added Z3 intensity to the beginning of the weekly long run.
Days Off:
Recommended Day Off on alternating Mondays in the long course plan from Weeks 9 to 19, L3 has an optional swim day.
General Improvements:
Maintained basic week flow for swim/bike/run even in final weeks.
Added a weekly “accountability” exercise where athletes write a list (yes they have to write it) or at least 3 things that went well in the week, and at least three things they would like to improve.
Added monthly equipment maintenance reminder.
Bike Focus Plans:
Friday Zone 2 Ride as bridge from Thursday Long Run to bigger Weekend Volume.
Added Challenge Ride to Weeks 9 to 14 to merge Z3 and Z2 work.
Run Focus Plan PROPOSED CHANGES:
Friday is additional Strides Day.
Sunday Brick Run off the ABP Bike.
NOT INCLUDED
Consider RPE guidance for the most key of the season’s key workouts. A long run in week 5 (or whatever) is a pretty key session to me, and should feel like a RPE score of 12 /20. If you aren’t hitting this score, you might be slacking. Or too tired. Or if you’re exceeding it, you’re going too hard.
My goal when feeling okay or better was to log an extra 5-15 minutes of ride time mostly zn2 to get the extra saddle time pretty much on any ride. I had a similar thing with swimming 1-200M extra as it add add up over the 12 weeks.
Masters - I've found great value in doing an Olympic or Sprint race 1-2 weeks before an IM. The race replaces one swim, one bike, and one run workout that week, the hardest one in each case. It serves to clean out the cobwebs and deal with pre-race jitters. And it is useful as a real world test of equipment and transition strategies. They are short enough that recovery before the big event is not an issue.
I took a peak. One thing that stood out is teammate accountability. It would be great to see this happen.
"You can enter this in your training log or, if you are a member of the Team, please post this to the Weekly Accountability Thread in your Race Forum online here."
I read all weeks and here are my comments/questions:
So, note in the plans that they are practicing this skill. For levels 1 and 2, on the Saturday, it's doing whatever possible to make sure that they are staying in aero for the last 90 mins of their ride. No matter what. For advanced level, it's this, plus the Sunday. You can even make it a challenge to increase the amount of time spent in the aerobars over last week's ride. The main point is to build this, progressively, over the season, like other stuff (and the great part is it doesn’t happen at the expense of other stuff ... there’s no additional metabolic cost or tss associated this this ... it’s just layered on top of whatever else is happen8ng in the wok at that moment.).
I guess this becomes more important at about week 10 of 20, and then becomes critical at week 15 through 20.
General Comments
- This plan appears to have quite a bit of run intensity still given the bike focus.
- I know I asked for some days off and like some of them you have but I believe the swim distance and frequency has suffered too much particularly on L1 and 2 with all the off days. I don't have my logs on my new computer but believe that we need to ramp up to 3X swims at least every other week and getting in at least a couple more 4000M swim days. Perhaps the trade off is going to a 4x running week every other week as it's a bike focus.
- I like the TSS targets.
Specific comments
WK 1
- Tuesday Threshold 4X1/2 mile is the same of all levels. This is about the same amount of work we are doing in the OS with reduced volume. Not sure if this threshold work is detrimental to down stream workouts for the L2 & L3 but perhaps more of a focus on durability and topping out z2/z3 work for most run in the L1. This comment would hold for most weeks through out the plan. Maybe you could build in to some z4 in later weeks maybe 7-12 then back off again as volume starts to ramp up.
Wk3
- L1 only 1 swim 1650M, several weeks of only 1 swim. I've done IM on 1-2 swims a week and 2-3 and the former I've felt tired arms and struggled in the water a bit when both the distance and frequency are down. Perhaps a trade off of 2X/week is more distance per session but again nothing substitutes for that more consistent 3rd session a week.
WK 8-9
- I like the 2 days off after the 1st big day particularly for L1. In wk 9 this is where you could work in an optional swim for L2 and give them a 3X week.
Wk9
- Cruise intervals are the same for L1&2. Again focus on the bike intensity of the plan and more durability particularly for L1. Perhaps a 2nd session with some Z3 work for L1.
-Wednesday Bike session has more TSS and higher IF than L3. Check this workout through this an later weeks.
- The split run worked well for me last year particularly helping with ramping up my mileage.
Wk11
- Like the L1 Challenge ride intensities. When there was FTP work in prior years it tended to push me over the edge and while I'm a little concerned about the amount of FTP work in some of the long rides I realize that this is a bike focus. Perhaps a note for the L1's like the ABP rides it's okay to dial the intensity back should you not be feeling it.
WK 16&17
- Camp week takes a big toll on me. With only 1 day off perhaps some optional zn3 work on Tuesday's run for L1 and I might even reduce some of the FTP work on Wednesday. This would help set me up better to have a good run simulation on Thursday of wk 17.
ThanKs so much...sitting down with these to finalize the full plans....you guys ROCK!
There were some changes I didn't make, you'll see them in italics...- Level-based guidance is great; not sure if total workout time changes for the different levels? Workout time doesn’t discreetly change...rather those with a shorter main set have more “remaining time at Zone 2” guidance if they so choose.
- Volume and time concerns for weeks 1 through 7... Remember this is a 20-week plan you are looking at, so most of you won't ever do these early parts...these are for folks who don't do an OS, etc.
- Note for the L1's like the ABP rides it's okay to dial the intensity back should you not be feeling it. This note is already in there.
- Week 6 Tuesday run l3 - still 2M or the goal is to add a mile every week - cap is 2 x 1 mile in Bike Focused Plan.
- Week 9 - Tuesday runs are now in KM ?
as such for L2, its a bit less work than what they were used to do in prior weeks. 2x1m= 3.2km vs 3km I am okay with it; we are keeping speed but making room for volume. - cap the interval run at 6X1k ? Yes, this is almost 4 x 1 miles. It’s enough!
Now, off to the Run Focused Plans!!!Why are strides not the same duration between Sat and Tuesday ? - because Saturday has a longer ride.