Options
Aspire to BQ in 2018
Qualifying for the Boston marathon is my "stretch" goal for the 2018 season. I would need to shave about a minute from my current marathon pace to get to a 3:25 marathon time. This will require a huge improvement in my run pace, and might even be out of reach. Nevertheless, I like to set goals that seem impossible and then figure out a way to make it happen.
Curious to hear experiences from others who have set a huge marathon pace improvement target.
I have laid out a season plan for 2018 to achieve this goal and discussed it with Coach Patrick. He suggested that I also seek out guidance from the forums.
Here's my planned 2017-2018 season:
- Oct'17, Hartford marathon: Somewhat social race with my girlfriend, who is attempting her first marathon. We expect to finish in ~3:50
- Feb'18, Hyannis marathon: One of the only NE winter marathons. I am doing this to keep me focused on running through the lousy weather and to set me up to be running-fit come spring '18
- Spring/Summer'18: One or two HIMs, possibly Quassy and Boulder 70.3.
- Oct'18: Bay State marathon: This is a fast, flat race that NE runners use to BQ. 25% of finishers typically qualify for Boston, so there will be a high concentration of fast runners. I am targeting a finish time of 3:25, which is inside of the 3:30 requirement for my age-group. This will be nearly a full minute faster than what my current VDOT/predicted race times.
I set this as my 2018 goal because I have noticed that faster triathletes seem to be the lightest and strongest runners. So, trying to BQ will help me with my multi-season goal of losing weight and running faster. Also, running fits well with my work and parenting responsibilities. Finally, qualifying for Boston has been a lifelong bucket-list achievement for me.
Whether or not I can pull this off, I expect to be much faster and lighter for my second IM, which I will do in the summer of 2019.
Curious to hear experiences from others who have set a huge marathon pace improvement target.
I have laid out a season plan for 2018 to achieve this goal and discussed it with Coach Patrick. He suggested that I also seek out guidance from the forums.
Here's my planned 2017-2018 season:
- Oct'17, Hartford marathon: Somewhat social race with my girlfriend, who is attempting her first marathon. We expect to finish in ~3:50
- Feb'18, Hyannis marathon: One of the only NE winter marathons. I am doing this to keep me focused on running through the lousy weather and to set me up to be running-fit come spring '18
- Spring/Summer'18: One or two HIMs, possibly Quassy and Boulder 70.3.
- Oct'18: Bay State marathon: This is a fast, flat race that NE runners use to BQ. 25% of finishers typically qualify for Boston, so there will be a high concentration of fast runners. I am targeting a finish time of 3:25, which is inside of the 3:30 requirement for my age-group. This will be nearly a full minute faster than what my current VDOT/predicted race times.
I set this as my 2018 goal because I have noticed that faster triathletes seem to be the lightest and strongest runners. So, trying to BQ will help me with my multi-season goal of losing weight and running faster. Also, running fits well with my work and parenting responsibilities. Finally, qualifying for Boston has been a lifelong bucket-list achievement for me.
Whether or not I can pull this off, I expect to be much faster and lighter for my second IM, which I will do in the summer of 2019.
Tagged:
1
Comments
this is a great goal.. in 2013, I pushed hard during NYCM to run a 3:23 (3:25 will qualify you, but you won't get in without at least a 2 minute cushion from what I've been told) @Coach Patrick knows all on Boston, so expect him to chime in at some point on this and hit him in your micro thread!
anyways, I blew up at 21 and shuffled in for a PR of 3:35...hardly the course to BQ on!!
excited to watch this happen... keep the body comp focus you've been so good at this year, it will pay huge dividends on the race course (and with the girl!)
Suggest we move our beer meet ups to a SBUX!
Running a faster marathon requires both inherent speed, and the endurance to slow down slowly as the distance gets longer. You just finished an Ironman, so you've got a leg up on the endurance side. What you're looking for next is more speed at the shorter distances. Think about this project not as making your marathon pace faster, but as making your shorter paces faster. I don't know what your VDOT *really* is, but I bet, properly trained, you can do a 21:00 5K/44:00 10K/1:38 half marathon. If so, you've got the inherent speed to do a 3:25 marathon.
I'd forget the "practice" marathons @ Hartford & Hyannis. Spend the fall and winter becoming a REAL runner, building foot speed, running 5 and 10Ks every 2-4 weeks, culminating in a late winter or early spring half marathon. That will let you know where you stand vis-a-vis your marathon potential. And it will make a better runner for any other racing - e.g., triathlon - you want to do, at any distance. Slogging along at marathon training won't necessarily make you faster at marathons, especially if you already have some muscular endurance built up from IM training. You need some real foot speed to build a new, faster marathon pace on, and that will only come from running FAST in training, fast not like what we do when training for an IM, but fast like you're getting ready for a 5K race. Remember, just like for triathlon training: "FAST, then FAR"
Of course, once you get that 21 minute 5K, you still need two more steps: sufficient mileage over a 3-5 month period (e.g., 45-55 miles/week minimum), and a good knowledge of how to run 26.2 miles at an even pace of 8 min/mile from start to finish. You can learn about both those at EN.
The Marathon and Half Mary plans in EN are designed this way....i followed the EN Half Mary plan to a PR in 2014
I started running seriously again last summer (2016) with some goals: BQing in the next year or two, breaking 5 hours in a half IM (did that yesterday), maybe breaking some of my 2010 PRs and having fun along the way (and now that I have discovered Strava, I have a lot of bike segments I want to go after next summer!). My race performance over the last 10 months was as follows (I joined EN in March 2017):
I'm registered for the Chicago marathon (10/8/17), and given what a flat course it is and the big crowd, I was hoping to have a shot at a BQ there. I'm 34 yo now, but my age at the 2018 Boston Marathon is 35, so I'll have to be a couple minutes under 3hr10min to BQ this year. I chatted w/ Coach P about this goal in May 2017 after my 25k and I know his thoughts on it (I won't share them here to get a less biased opinion from you all
I only have 8 weeks to focus on running (more like 5 with 1 recovery week from my 70.3 yesterday and 2 weeks to taper for the marathon).
How big of a long shot do people think it is? Possible? Impossible? For many months this year, I tried to keep the mindset that if I'm not ready to BQ by October, I will do another fast marathon course next spring or summer and hopefully be ready by then. So if people think that is the best plan, then I am mentally ready for that. But I am excited about my progress & want to have more input on whether or not a BQ would be possible on 10/8.
Back in 2009/2010, I know how my late summer olympic tri run paces translated to October half marathon performances with only 1-2 months to focus on running (my half marathons were faster than my 10k olympic tri splits). But I have no idea how a 70.3 run performance translates to a marathon performance that follows shortly after.
@Patrick Marsh - I don't have a ton of advice for you, as I have a lot less experience than other EN team members. But it sounds like you have a BQ very much within your grasp! You only have to take a minute off your marathon time!?! I would think that would be very doable. Hopefully we can both accomplish this great goal in the next year and maybe even run in Boston together!
Thanks!
As for me, I am back from vacation and fully rested from IMLP. I am getting ready now for the Hartford marathon, which I had committed to running with my girlfriend several months ago.
I will re-set my VDOT next week, but I think that I am presently at an 8:45/mile marathon pace, which would be put me in the area of a 3:50 marathon on a flat course. This would put my girlfriend, Karen, in line to BQ on what would be her first attempt for her AG. She is fast and can podium in small hometown races. She has never run 26.2 miles, so building up the endurance and learning to race with nutrition will be her big challenges.
I spoke to Coach P this morning. Based on this conversation, and all the helpful comments above, I plan to do one marathon next year - the BayState in Lowell, MA next October. I will spend the winter working on durability, speed and athleticism. By that, I mean that I will commit myself to regular/intensive core, strength and flexibility workouts. I will focus on short races in the spring and then do a half-marathon race in late summer. Also, to cross-train, I will do a HIM in the spring/summer - probably Quassy, but maybe Eagleman.
I will keep the this thread posted as I collect data and begin making progress.
When I arrived at EN, my vDOT for 5k and 13.1 were drastically different. I ran a 19:26, and the machine said I was a 51.5 vDOT. But my 1:34 half put me at 48. What gives? Call it a lack of volume, durability, strength, whatever - I definitely didn't have it over the long haul. After my first year of working with Coach P on run durability, which involved 5-6 runs per week, less intensity and weekly volume up in the 30s and 40s, I ran a 1:32. Better, closer, warmer. After year two, I ran a 1:30, and pushed my HM vDOT up to match my 5k vDOT of 51. With that, Jack Daniels says I can go sub-3:10 in a marathon. Next February, we'll see if that's realistic or mere pipe dream.
This is just a long-winded example of showing that what the real runners ^^ said is true: If you need a 3:28 marathon to BQ and you can break 22 in a 5k, you're on your way. If you can also break 1:40 in a HM, you're there. But if 1:45 or 1:50 is the best you can do near-term, may have some work to do over the next year.
Similarly, if 3:08 is the goal time, a 19:30 5k proves you've got the foot speed. And if you can back it up with the critical 1:30 HM speed, game on.
Can't way to follow these stories and see how they play out.
MR
Second thought is the sheer size of Chicago. Sure, you get a chip time and it is flat, and it will probably be nice cool weather. But those CROWDS. No matter where you start, there are bound to be people ahead of you going slower (idiots!) and others who will slow down in the second half (you won't, right?) Which means you spend some mental and physical energy dealing with that, maybe even running 42.4 or 42.5 k instead of 42.2 just to avoid running into the masses. Same thing at the drink tables - sheer numbers make it hard to maintain speed thru an aid station. That might be why doing an intermediate sized marathon (1500-5000 runners) is the best choice for a BQ attempt. On a flat, or slightly downhill, point-to-point course (to minimize turns and losing time on the tangents.)
I have no doubt that if you sustain the quality of training you have been doing over the past year, you will certainly achieve a BQ time. If not in two months, then you may want to become more strategic in your efforts - where, when, long-term training plan, etc.
Al, good point about the crowds and the turns! I guess I'll just have to work that much harder. Yeah, I am mentally ok with it being a long shot. Especially considering the fact that the weather could be poor (high winds, cold rain, high temps), and then I would know I'm running for a PR and the experience, but not a BQ. I'm pretty fired up to shoot for it, and that should inject some energy into my training. And if I don't make the time this fall, I think marathon training for a BQ next year (with Patrick Marsh) would complement (at least in part) my goals to improve in my 70.3 next year too. I'm hoping the strong finish in my 70.3 means that I may have the fitness now to have gone a *little* faster.
I'm eager to see what my legs can do as I start dialing up my running in the coming weeks. I will look forward to reading updates from (and sharing with) you in this thread.
@Mike Roberts that is awesome to hear how much you've improved w/ EN and Coach P! Good luck crushing your marathon PR in February!
Good luck to you all and thanks again!
Interesting as I ran a 22:08 5k turkey trot before training up this season. Last week, 3 weeks after lake Placid, i ran a 1:36 half on a very hilly course... there's hope for me
@Al Truscott's advice to follow the fast then far is exactly when I started to see the breakthrough. This was before EN, but has continuously improved in the last 7 years with EN.
My history:
2004 first 5K. 22:xx. I was fit, but not a runner. I remember pushing so hard and getting gag reflexes at the finish line as I was overwhelmed by the smell of a local breakfast restaurant.
2008 - signed up for an adventure tri (bike, run, canoe) and did it on no training but got the bug to do a marathon.
I signed up for the Cincinnati Flying Pig marathon in 2009. I followed a free training plan from the internet and did a 9 mile race 6 weeks prior in 1:09 (7:28 pace). My training and long runs were shooting for a 3:25-3:30 finish. I made all the rookie mistakes (new shoes, went out to fast, poor nutrition) and limped my way to a 3:45.
I knew I could do better so signed up for the Indianapolis Monumental Marathon in Nov '09. I also got the tri bug and signed up for Steelhead 70.3 in July '09. I ran a 1:47 HIM at Steelhead and then started my marathon training. This time I used a plan that was developed by a running coach for a friend of mine and included long, slow runs and lots of speed work during the week (mostly 400s and 800s). These created the muscle memory that provided I could run faster. I remember being a bike marshal for the '09 flying pig and watching the men's half winnner put up a 1:12 or something like that. I saw how smooth and fluid he as and told myself I wanted to run a 10K below a 7 minute pace as my interim goal. I was able to do that and saw great, fast progress. I did a HIM in prep 3 weeks from my Marathon. I went solely by RPE and went sub 1:28. This was my breakthrough that proved what I was capable of. Three weeks later I BQed in Indianapolis with a 3:10 marathon.
That was the last standalone marathon I've run. I've toyed with the idea of training to go sub 3, but I just love triathlon too much to focus only on running thus far.
Since then...I've continued to improve, albeit more slowly. My first IM (IMAZ 2011) resulted in a 3:46 marathon. I ran Boston in '12 and struggled to a 3:43 (mostly due to the 90 degree temps and humidity that I didn't prepare for). Then I did IMMOO in '13 where I ran 3:27. In '14 my goal was to PR in the half mary so followed the EN plan and ran a 1:25 which is my PR to this day at that distance. I ran a 3:26 at IMMOO '15 after a much stronger bike which ultimately took me to Kona where I had, to this day, my best execution of 26.2 miles (and second best time ever) where I ran 3:23. Last month I had a HIM run PR of 1:29.
For me the key was putting in the speedwork to create the muscular capability to turn your legs over faster then building on that via consistency (both frequency and duration) to build on that faster base.
I've also been reading/listening about body composition. I've always (since I got my scale in 2014) typically been between 12-15% body fat (once got down in the 10% range, but I had just lost a parent to cancer, so it wasn't a normal time). I'm wondering if I can dial that down in the next 2 months for this marathon & really help my cause.
Over the winter, I got my VDOT up to 42. Then, it steadily dropped as I focused my efforts almost entirely on increasing volume and building run durability.
Clearly, I will need to get much faster over the next 14 months. This speed will have to come from stride length, as my cadence is consistently in the 185 area. On slow runs, my stride length is in the 0.9 m area. For longer intervals, I can reach the 1.10 area. Increasing my stride length should arise from increasing my power and improving my form.
Greater power will allow me to travel further with each step. Speed intervals, hill repeats, core exercises, and lunges will be necessary to build power. Improved form will allow me to travel further with each step and run longer with less fatigue.
I have been watching a lot of YouTube videos and listening to podcasts about how to get faster. This weekend I bought a book called 'Your Best Stride' by Jonathan Beverly, who was the editor of Runner's World for 15 years.
One of his main themes is that too much focus has been placed on foot strike and not enough emphasis has been on what happens above the ankle. He lays out several tasks necessary to optimizing our stride: improving our balance, rotating our hips appropriately, elongating our hip flexors, strengthening our glutes and improving our posture.
Looking at video clips and photos of my running stride from races, I noticed that I am not lifting my knees to drive my legs forward. Instead, I am shuffling and then throwing my foot forward (think of old images of Russian soldiers marching). I suspect that my short stride is the result of tight hip flexors and not engaging my glutes. Throwing my foot forward causes me to overstride. Thus, I am striking the ground hard in front of my center of mass and my foot is acting like a brake that slows my momentum and results in a heavy landing. This makes me slower and vulnerable to Achilles and knee issues.
Miranda Carefrae has great running form. She leans in and drives her knee upwards. It looks like she is running uphill. She leads with her knee instead of throwing her foot forward. When she lands, her center of mass is above her foot so she is only on the ground for a brief moment. She has a very light Stright. As she takes her next step, her back foot almost kicks her own backside. This is a form that you can see with elite marathoners.
I will clearly never run like an elite Kenyan. However, I think I can learn to reduce over-striding by driving my knees up and forward. This will also allow me to engage my glutes, and thus utilize more muscles with each step. I have been focusing on driving my knees and engaging my glutes during my past few runs, and I can feel the fatigue in my glutes afterwards.
My focus over the next several weeks will be to try to lengthen my stride by committing more time to stretching/yoga, and by trying to drive my knees forward, rather than throwing my foot forward. I have also returned to doing core exercises and lunges several times a week. Coupled with intervals, this should start increasing my power.
I have another 5K test in a month. I will post on this thread with my results.
I do hot yoga once a week, so hopefully that helps w/ my hip flexors.
My Goal to BQ update: I have a lot less time, so I'm really focused on body composition. I'm using the "MyFitnessPal" app as suggested in a podcast by Coach Rich. This is the first time I've ever tracked my calories. Being so focused and motivated to be fast and channeling that toward eating less is really empowering though! I'm hoping to lose about a pound a week. I'm definitely getting leaner. I always eat super healthy, but in the last few years, I've been especially disappointed my midsection hasn't been leaner (getting later into my 30's, I guess?). It is finally getting leaner. My % bodyfat has been between 12.5-14.5% most of the year, and that is pretty typical for me since I got the scale in 2014. But I read that some Olympic athletes have a body fat of 2%. So I'm interested to see how low I can get it. I'm excited to see how my weight loss will (hopefully) synergize with any gains in speed.
How low do you all typically get your body fat for a race?
Monday was my first day running harder than "easy." I'm pretty happy with how strong I'm feeling so short after the IM. Last weekend was 10 mi trail run, Sat, 10 mile run Sunday. This weekend will be split 10 morning, 10 evening on Saturday. Then the long runs begin next weekend.
I'm slower than I need to be right now, but Coach P said it might take a while for my running pace to come back after ending the IM build. I'm optimistic.
I'm eager to see what I can do during the 3*3' @ 5k pace next week and the 18 run with 6 miles at goal race pace next Saturday.
I'll keep you all posted!
Next Saturday: 18 miles; 12 at GRP+20''; 6 at GRP. Yikes! I'm excited!
@Scott Dinhofer I have been looking for 5Ks, but haven't seen any flat ones near my town in mid-September. I agree that I need to do more racing to get faster.
I have finally shaken out the fatigue from IMLP. Last weekend, I ran a relatively hilly 18-miler at 9:16. Today, I did a 15.5 mile run at 9:09 and was able to grind my pace from a 9:50 at the beginning down to an 8:24 per mile pace. I ran this same course on July 4th at a 9:16 pace, so I picked up 7 seconds.
Also, I am getting my weekly mileage back up. This will be my third week in a row of at least 35 miles. My legs feel fresher, and my intermediate marathon plan is calling for two days a week of heavy speed work.
Here are my thoughts after one month of this process to run a fast marathon:
- Run durability is going to be essential to avoid injury. That means lots of mileage at slow paces. For me, that will be heavy mileage at a ~9:30 mile pace. It seems like 30 miles a week will be the bare minimum and I may need to be doing 55+ miles per week by next summer
- Speedwork has to be done frequently and at a high levels of intensity. Now that I am riding only a few hours a week, I have more of a spring in my step when I do speed work. I can feel that I am striking the ground lighter, I am driving my knees and engaging my glutes.
- Core/Strength/Flexibility - I am seeing big benefits from committing to stretching after every run, plus doing at least three sessions a week of 30-minute strength and core routines. I am finally addressing the lack of flexibility I had developed from riding several thousand miles on the bike over the past two years. In July, I had inflamed my piriformis, and that led to pressure on my sciatic nerve, which shot pain down the back of my left leg - from my tailbone to my heel. This led me to taking very short strides when I ran. I have spent a lot of time this month stretching, doing yoga and using a roller, and I am very happy to report that the pain is subsiding and I am able to take longer strides when I run.
- Nutrition - I am being more disciplined about what I am eating before, during and after I run.
- Injury prevention - I think this will be the single most important skill I need to improve. This will come from putting in lots of easy miles and then being disciplined about stretching every day and being very committed to doing at least three 30-minute core/strength sessions every week. Good nutrition habits and lots of sleep will also be key to staying healthy.
I will post on this thread after my next TT in mid-September. Until then, I hope everyone is staying healthy and getting faster.
Keep posting we're all following this!
The lessons learned so far are the importance of patience, flexibility and consistency.
Patience. As I sat with an ice pack on my knee, I was reminded of a joke about the Himalayan explorer seeking enlightenment. After a several day journey, the explorer reached a high mountaintop temple and asked the wisest monk what he needed to do to reach enlightenment. The monk outlined a 5-year plan of fasting and meditation. The explorer then asked how long it would take if he worked really hard at fasting and did twice the amount of meditating. The wise monk paused, thought about it, and then said "ten years". So, I have been wondering if I would need to re-title this thread "Aspire to BQ in 2019...". So, my first lesson learned is to not rush progress, and patiently follow the prescribed plan. Pushing harder than your body can handle will lead to injury, which in turn will force you to defer your goals.
The second lesson is the importance of flexibility. My knee problem really started in June. That is when i was spending a lot of time in the aero position getting ready for IMLP. I developed some significant tightness somewhere in my hip flexors, most likely my piriformis. I didn't devote any time to stretching in the final four months leading up to IMLP because I was time-constrained. The tightness in my left glute/hip flexor/piriformis area manifested into some pressure on my sciatic nerve, leading to pain shooting down the back of my left leg. This was bothering me the last few weeks of training, and I dealt with it by taking shorter strides during my runs. However, once I decided to start training for a fast marathon, I realized that I couldn't easily take long strides and my pace times had become very slow. I started stretching several times a week, but the tightness was leading to all sorts of problems. In late August, I ended up with some ITB tightness, and then early-morning achilles tendon inflammation. Ultimately, my running gait was off, while I was trying to run faster. So, I wasn't too surprised when my left knee ended up swelling, since I had been dealing with all sorts of small issues in my left leg for a few months. Thus, my second lesson learned is that when you feel some tightness in one of your muscle groups, you need to address it then and there, even if it eats into the cycling/running/swimming time. Running with a flexibility imbalance is a sure-fire way to get a repetition injury. So, going forward, I am committed to maintaining my flexibility (and core) even when I am time-constrained.
My third lesson learned is consistency. In many ways, running is more demanding than cycling or swimming. As we get older, our ligaments and tendons are less supple and are more prone to inflammation. Thus, I think that I will need to run frequently, even at slow paces, so that I will always have a decent base that I can build off of. I believe that if I take several weeks or a month off, then I will need to start the whole run durability process all over again.
Going forward, I know that I will need to address body composition, in line with @scott dinhoffer 's suggestion. This will help with my speed, and reduce the pounding my body takes during a run. Also, after some back and forth posts with @Coach Patrick I realize that I am going to need to be crafty with how I use cycling to build aerobic fitness and swimming for recovery. Also, these exchanges made me realize that I cannot rush the speed-building process.
I am scheduled to run the Hartford marathon in three weeks. I was getting ready to cancel/postpone my entry, but my knee felt surprisingly good after a long "test" run on Thursday. Following that run, I iced my knee for twenty minutes. Much to my pleasant surprise, I woke up Friday and felt no knee pain.
So, if the knee pain and swelling continue to diminish, then I will run Hartford. However, if the swelling returns and the pain on the inside of the knee comes back, then I will postpone my entry to another year.
I was hoping to run a 3:45, but at this point I will be happy just to be able to run it.
Will be back in a few weeks with an update.
Man, classes are back in session & I've been busy! I've been wanted to post for a while, but now have finally put together a nice compilation of my marathon build (google sheet, I'll share). It has links to the Strava Files for each of my key long runs, and most of them have a lot of details in the "notes" (more than you want, but they are for my records). The google sheet should be a good summary with lots of data & certain things highlighted.
Google sheet (Strava links in google doc and also pasted below):
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1d1qytIktcqToE-eCxJCdLanBLyTVXA_jwEoBZbZON2k/edit?usp=sharing
My body comp progress (graphs below; sorry they showed up so large!) was really great for the first 2-3 weeks of the last 4.5 weeks, but slowed a bit in recent weeks (challenging, stress at work, social events, etc.). I don't think I've lost too much progress (graphs below). But now I have 2 weeks to taper & really focus on getting as lean as I can. I want to get my bf% under 10 if I can. I've hit 10.8 at this point, but I'm hovering around 11% right now. (pics attached). I've also made the mistake of allowing my Friday "Carbo load" to include 2400-6400 extra calories for that day. I've had GI issues & had to stop & poop on 2/3 key long runs. So this is a big thing I need to improve. The day I didn't have to stop & poop, I only ate an extra 1067 calories the day before the long run. I recently heard max glycogen stores are ~2000, so I'm clearly overdoing it (partly just an excuse to eat a ton of food, mostly really healthy, but a ton). Notable, that when I started this weight tracking (~8/20/17), I was already ~5 pounds lighter than I had been for much of the summer.
So questions for you all:
- How much faster than my cut-off time do I need to go to get a spot in Boston? I was thinking (and have read) that about 2 minutes should be enough. I've been shooting for GRP of 7:08, which should be a 3hr6min54 sec marathon based on a 26.2 mile race and I've pretty much been hitting the workouts for that. I am 34 yo now & will be 35 at the time of the next Boston Marathon, so my cutoff time is 3hr10min. BUT, recently some Boston marathoners told me they thought I definitely had to break 3hr05min to get a spot (7:03 pace). I've been secretly fantasizing about breaking 3hr5min, and at times, I thought that pacing was in reach for my workouts, but I haven't hit it exactly. But typically there was a complicating variable sometimes poops, and on my best run, a course that was a lot hillier than Chicago (my upcoming marathon course).
- Does anyone think I can pace for 7:03 min/mile (3hr05min marathon)? Is a 3hr7min marathon enough under 3hr10min to get a spot? Does 3hr7min (7:08 pace) seem realistic for me?
- Do you think the time spent stopping to pee in a crowded marathon (maybe 30 seconds?) would be more than the time lost from the added weight from peeing while you run and soaking your shoes and possibly socks?
Thanks for the encouragement, ideas and inspiration everyone @Patrick Marsh and others!@Patrick Marsh - I am really sorry to hear about your injury! I've learned the patience and stretching lesson so many times from rushing things & getting an injury (even when I was a stretching fanatic to begin with). Stretching has been key to me keeping MANY injuries at bay over the years. For most of my 20's & part of my early 30's (I'm only 34 now) I was convinced that stretching was the key to fixing most of my chronic injuries. But I was still failing to keep them at bay. For me, the big game changer in the last couple years has been weekly strength training. If something hurts, I strengthen it with targeted lifts in the gym, and the pain goes away almost that hour, typically stays away for days to a week. If I do it regularly enough, I can usually skip 2-3 weeks of it, but typically, then the old aches and pains come back. So for me, stretching is a temporary fix to keep injuries at bay on a day-to-day basis. But to keep them away long enough to train, I have to lift (at least that's what I've experienced the last couple years).
@Patrick Marsh , I can understand how committing to do that marathon w/ your gf would make it more tempting. You will make the final decision, but I think @Al Truscotts words of caution are wise. And BQ in 2019 is still a great goal! If I don't hit it this time, I may focus on 2019 too so I can focus on my triathlon goals in 2018.
I also completely agree with you that the moment you feel a pain, you should really stop and stretch it right there. Luckily, I have a job that is flexible enough, I can stop & stretch a lot. But I'm famous for stretching all over the place (airports, buses, bus stops, bars, restaurants, airplanes, in the middle of proctoring an exam, during meetings...as long as it isn't a distraction).
I was hoping to have a coach call with @Coach Patrick today, but it didn't workout. Hopefully I can chat w/ him soon, or hear in the coach thread what he thinks about these data.
Thanks for any input team!
Regarding your earlier discussion about running form @Patrick Marsh and others:
I've noticed a shift in my running form when I'm trying to go fast for long distances that I think has really helped. It reminds me of what I have read about many times as being more efficient: most leg movement is behind you, feet hit the ground very briefly more directly underneath you, and a fast cadence. The key to achieving this for me has been a feeling that my pelvis tilts slightly forward and open. I've read that good running form is more about hip position than foot strike (or that one drives the other). I think this has been improved with some low back strengthening exercises I've been doing almost weekly for the last 6 weeks or so (like walking bridge). I'm excited, because I think as this becomes more normal for me, I think it could really help my running continue to improve.
I noticed the transition almost naturally during one of my long runs, when I was tired & tried to "shift into a higher gear." Now I kind of plan for it and try to hold that form. It feels great!
2012: 1:14 faster than qualifying time
2014: 1:38
2015: 1:02
2016: 2:28
2017: 2:09
2018: 3:23
The past year apparently had tough weather conditions at many of the Boston feeder races, but the cutoff still got harder. If the weather returns to normal, it could take 4 minutes below the qualifying time to get in for 2019. If your singular goal is to get into Boston (as opposed to qualifying), and you think you are on the edge of being able to run 3:05-3:07, what I would do is go out on pace for a 3:06:00. If you feel strong at mile 20 you can always push the pace to get down to 3:05. Going the other way doesn't work as well.
Looking at your long runs, I'd say that pace is a stretch goal, but possible if you have good weather in Chicago given the flat course. As my n=1 data point, last fall my long runs were between 6:42-7:14 pace, and for the marathon I averaged 6:51 on a hilly course.
On running form, I think that inserting strides regularly into easy runs helps a lot. Also strengthening exercises like hill repeats and bounding uphill. But the biggest factors in getting faster (at least for me) are consistency over the year, and body comp. I had to take some time off earlier this year, and it has been a long slog to get back to where I was a year ago.
This morning, I saw an orthopedist. It looks like my meniscus tear from 2010 has flared up. The swelling in the left knee is from synovial fluid flowing into the joint because my torn meniscus was "aggravated" (my doctor's words...). I am going back for an MRI next Wednesday and should have a prognosis by next Thursday. Until then, it is swimming and core work for me - no running or cycling until further notice.
@Larry Peters Good luck with the training and the marathon. You are flying on those training runs. Great job with the improvements in the body comp.
@Mike Westover Very interesting data progression showing the moving target of a BQ age group time.
I need to recognize how far I've come & realize that even breaking 3hr 10 min is awesome for me, if I'm able to do it! Your post is a good reality check. Unrealistic expectations are unhealthy.
I just saw the source you posted on my other comment. Thanks! @Mike Westover
@Mike Westover when you reported those long training run paces in your post, were those as hilly as your race course, less hilly, more hilly, or varied? My best training run was definitely hillier than I think the race course will be.
Thanks for the "get faster" suggestions too!
@Patrick Marsh So sorry to hear about the injury, but I"m glad you are taking cautionary steps like not running in the upcoming marathon.