Help me save (or spend) some money - Cervelo P1 vs P2
When I got into tri a couple years ago, I weighed the road vs tri bike pros and cons and ended up going road (Felt F75). I threw some clip-ons on it and it has served me well. While the bike certainly isn't my biggest limiter (PEBSAH?), I thought it would be nice to buy a tri bike before my IM.
I had pretty much decided on a new P1 (thought about going used but would like to support the LBS, get fit properly, know what I'm getting, not hassle with shipping to Canada, etc.) I had wrapped my head around the price, which seemed pretty reasonable - in the grander scheme of things, of course - and good bang for the buck.
I mentioned my thinking to a friend I ride with who has a P2C. Whoops. He highly recommended going with the P2. I mention it to someone with a P3...same story. They sure love their carbon. Not sure if it's the post-purchase cognitive dissonance talking or if carbon really is all that.
I mentioned it to the LBS and he thought it over and said that he figured I would be a lot happier with the P2. His reasoning was that while going from the F75 to the P1 would (obviously) be an upgrade, that there would be that much more of a noticeable leap going to the P2. The discusson from his perspective mainly focused on ride comfort, and that translating to getting off the bike feeling fresher and less beat up.
So that's all well and good, but >$1000 more on top of a not trivial amount of money to begin with seems like a quite a bit. I trust and like the guy and while I intuitively realize he's making more money with the P2, don't think he's necessarily upselling just for the hell of it. He doesn't (nor do I) want me to get the P1, end up not being entirely happy, and selling it and buying a P2 down the road.
I'm on a budget like everybody else, but plan on being in this sport for the long haul (not getting any younger at 38), so can mentally rationalize/amortize my way into just about anything.
So I'm looking for feedback - has anybody gone from P1 to P2 (or vice versa)? General feedback or thoughts?
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Hi Craig,
I bought a P2SL in 2007. I'm not sure but, I think the new P1 is the same as my current P2SL,,guess they changed the name. I went from a carbon road bike (which I really liked, had to sell that bike to get my tri bike) to the P2SL, which is an aluminum frame with carbon forks and seat post. Mine also came with carbon cranks and DA compontents, with an Ultegra cassette and chain. I have been satisfied with my P2SL. The biggest difference I noticed from carbon to aluminum, was the difference in a comfortable ride. The carbon seemed more comfortable over the long haul and the aluminum more stiff, I felt more of the bumps and jolts along the way. Now, I have gotten used to the difference and don't think about it much anymore, but if I had a choice to upgrade to carbon I would. My 2 cents.
Kathy
I have only ever ridden a P1...but, I CAN say it is a great ride and I don't feel 'all beat up' when I get off the bike. Again, though, I don't know the difference.
The question I would ask is, do you have a powermeter? Because if not, I'd say you're better off putting the incremental $1000 into a powermeter. P1+powermeter beats P2.
If you get the AL you will still covet the carbon so just step up and get it now. P2 may actually be more aero for you depending on the setup. FWIW my AL cervelo road bike is no less comfortable than either my Kuota or QR tri bikes which are super fancy carbon. Just plain can't tell.
I have never ridden the P1 for more than ~30 min, and I've ridden mine through an IM, so I know mine better. :-)
They feel "different" and you get a bit more buzz of the road with the P1 than the P3. The latter is just smoother - no doubt about it. But the difference is not overwhelming. It's smaller than the difference between the P1 and my very old Al Trek 1400 road bike.
On the bang for buck question, there is no doubt in my mind that the P2 is a great deal, or at least was last year. If I recall correctly, they RAISED the price on a P2 and dropped the price on P3 (or at least made it available with Ultegra...not 100% sure). In any case, the aerodynamic difference between P2 and P3 is small enough given everything I've read, that the P2 is a great value sweet spot assuming you want the carbon frame. Even Slowman on ST (who rides a P3) says that he'd put people on a P2 over a P3 if it fit them a little better. I've seen data (forget where) that suggest P2 and P3 are not quite equivalent (P3 is still a little better, all else equal), but they are close enough!
In my decision to spring for the P3, it came down to buying a part that I "never" would need to upgrade. In all honesty, I think you'd feel very close to that with a P2 frame, too.
That said, as Chris G mentioned, if you know that you would eventually perfer the carbon, just suck it up and buy it now so you don't want to upgrade in another year.
FWIW, I wouldn't even spend a second worring about the aero difference between a P1, P2, P3, P4, etc ... they are so close that how you attach the race number to the bike or put on your race number belt will have more impact on drag.
Craig,
I just upgraded from a 98 cannondale to a 2010 specialized comp transition. I have only been on my cannondale on the trainier in the last three years but believe the carbon ride is a little smoother, especially now that I am getting in to the longer rides. This could just be my mind justifying my new purchase. I honestly never felt too bad on my cannondale and equate much of this to better fit.
Also if you are getting the new P2 at a>1000 premium then you need to consider any extras as well, new pedals, shoes, helmet, aerobottle. This stuff can also add up.
If it were me I'd try to make the stretch for the P2 as I know I will be riding the bike for a long time.
I knew you were going to IMC but now I find out your in my AG (I'm 38 as well). Perhaps I should encourage you to purchase a single speed for IMC
.
Gordon
Yup. Fit matters. I went from 2000 Lemond Ultegra road bike to a 2010 Kestrel Airfoil Pro. I spent c. $500 last year trying to turn the roadie into something more aero. The first time I sat on the Kestrel, I realized I didn't know aero -- it fits like a dream in comparison.
Maybe think of bikes as the thing that is comfortable enough to get YOU into aero position, instead of being aero all by itself? After that, I'd employ buy the best bike you can afford strategy.
Wow, lots of great input/advice here folks - really appreciate it.
I guess the good news is that it looks like I can't go too far wrong with either choice!
Lots to chew on - will keep you posted.
And Gordon, don't worry about IMC - whichever I end up with, I'll be rocking it fixie style for hipster-cred-points.
An update and looking for a bit more advice.
Craig,
Personally I'd go new. All the points you mention about swapping out and what's not useful are key.
Also I'm not necessarily sold on the all carbon so having standard aerobars would not bother me one bit. In fact it just one less piece that does not need the torque wrench. If you know that the aerobars on the 2010 P2 will work that's much better than a maybe...
It's great that the shop offered the used bike over pushing the new, but I'd go new unless that $500 is for food or rent.
Gordon
New. I think of carbon fiber tri bikes as having an expiration date. If the dollars per use/year math works out, I'm guessing a new bike that will last you six years would work out better than an older bike that you'd be replacing in three or four.
Why is that? Don't they usually have a lifetime warranty? Do they fatigue more quickly than titanium and aluminum, therefore more likely to break down? I don't know the answers to these questions, not being in the market for a new bike; I'm still using a round tube titanium Qunitana Roo from the turn of the century (11 years old).
Paging Slowtwitch/Engineering types. From my understanding, carbon fiber frames get lots of little micro-cracks with use. After a while, it is my understanding they stop "feeling" right. But if this info is old/wrong, hooray! My bike will last longer!
Taking care of some random post-IMC housekeeping.
@Mike: Thanks!
looks great, just to make you feel better about it, i went through this mental exercise a year ago and the review that sold me was a comment in a magazine that in most other bike lines, a bike like the P2 would be an upper level if not top level bike. Top level might be a stretch, but you got a lot more bike for your money than you would elsewhere!
enjoy!
Really? The lower position of the P3/4 (in the larger sizes anyway) doesn't offer an aero advantage? What about the full rear wheel cutout? Nothing? So you're saying the 100g difference between the P1 and P2, or 200g difference between the P1 and P3 is the only "advantage?"
@Chris - Kurt said what I was trying to say much better.
Basically I was saying the slight difference in frame drag between the cervelo bikes means almost nothing to most people as these differences are lost in the noise of many other things during an IM or 70.3.
I believe Cervelo and that there are aero drag and weight differences in a wind tunnel or lab. In a TDF TT these things might matter but for an average or even pro triathlete I highly doubt it makes a difference. In a 40k TT with nothing added to the bike and pros in the best position possible, then frame drag may begin to make a same difference difference.
What I don't believe is that these minor differences make any difference to 99% of triathletes. I feel your position (biggest difference by far), clothes (tight vs lose), helmet (aero vs normal), head position, and wheels (aero vs standard training wheels) have more impact on your performance than the bike frame. After all of these things are optimized, then maybe frame drag may come into play but I still think it gets lost in the nosie of everything else that happens over a 8+ hour race.
More specifically I feel this way forthe P1-P4 because:
- All of the cervelo bikes are very aero to start with. Comparing a p1, p2, p3, and p4 is like comparing non-dimpled to dimpled 404s and 808s. Sure there are differences in the wind tunnel but in the real world...i doubt it is big enough to change the outcome of anyones race.
- Most triathletes (including myself) attach so much crap their bike that it is no longer like the bike that was tested. We have to do this to make it through the race. It has various bottles, cages, spares, race number on bike and our body, etc. Again, I include myself in this group as i add a bunch of stuff to my bike to race IM. FWIW, the Trek SC is a great design from this front as they took that into account with the draft box and speed box.
- Weight - if you are doing a TT uphill and have optimized your body weight than I buy that having a lighter bike will make a difference. In ironman, i don't buy it as the crap we carry with us weighs way more than the difference of these frames.
- My situation has afforded me to race 3 different TT bikes in the last 3 years and to be honest there just isn't that much of a difference. I have also rode a P2 and P3 although not owned them and many other bikes.
- I did not consider your point about the frame geometry and I could sort of buy that one. If it was impossible for you to get into the position on a P2 but the p3 or p4 allowed it then I see the reason to go with the p3 or p4. I'm pretty sure that is not the case for most people as with an adjustable stem and low stack aerobars (Hed, Felt, Easton, etc) I bet a P2 would fit, ideal no... but it would work just fine and cause no change to the outcome of a race.
I'm not an engineer or by any means an expert. I'm just sharing my opinion based on my short time in the sport and personal expeirences.
All that said, I always try to optimize what I add on my bike to make the best situation. For folks that like bike bling (like me) or who want to be competitive, sure go buy the best you can. I have no problem with that. What I don't like is that ST and bike manufactures make your rank and file triathlete feel like if they don't have a new superbike they are giving up "tons" time in their race when I bet it would make no difference in the outcome of a long course event.
My point was simply to the original poster that I would not let frame aerodymanics make the decision for you as the difference is very little in the real world for long course triathletes. if he would rather have a p2, go for it but don't do it thinking that you will magically be faster on race day.
Thanks for the reply Matt.