I read Dan's recent piece on frames and my bike contains one of the things he was particularly critical of, an upturned stem (mine is extremely upturned). As a coincidence, my fitter also mentioned that if I were ever to get a new bike or frame, it would be more ideal to go up one size and run a flat stem. So of course, I think to myself, if I'm going to get a new frame, I might as well get something lighter and more aero like a P3.
I've considered flattening out my current stem to get lower, but in the end, I'm comfortable on my bike and I'm not sure I could go much lower and still be comfortable for 5+ hours.
@Chris - It's hard to tell from the picture by my guess is your saddle is about 2cm behind the BB center, you may be able to slide the saddle forward 2-4 cm, then lower your bars mayeb 1-4 cm and still be have the same hip angle and other fit coordinates. Of course there may be other very valid reason why you should not go any lower.
What size is your current frame? What stem and spacers do yo have on their. If you were to get a new frame you may be better off on a tall/narrow bike that has more stack in the frame or with a different set of aerobars that have more stack between the bars and the pads.
I agree with Dan's thoughts on that stems and spacers. I have run -17 stems for the last 3 years and actually I first did it because I liked it being horizontal to mount a computer or water bottle on. I actually just ordered a new frame for this year and am sizing up. On my current frame (Small Orbea Ordu) I'm running a 110mm -17 stem with 3 cm of spacers. The new frame Ridley Dean will be a medium and I'll be running a 80mm -17 stem with only a 1 cm of spacer.
The other comment I should have made is the previous discussion is that I feel a mid tier bike from a high end manufacturer is often the best bang for the buck and the point of diminishing returns. The P2 is an amazing bike for the money and you have give up very little to the P3 or P4. Based on your picture the P2 may actually fit you better because of what you said about it having more stack than a P3/P4 (i know that was the case2 years ago, not sure if they changed that).
The picture was taken just before Louisville and I wasn't actually professionally fitted until a couple months after the race (I know, BIG taboo!).
The frame is a 58 which I decided upon after measuring my dimensions according to the Competitive Cyclist fit calculator. I basically just kept adjusting things on the bike until I was able to tolerate it for long rides. The stem is the shortest and steepest you can get but I don't know the exact measurements off the top of my head. I'll get them for you when I get home from work in the AM and try to get another picture.
The P1 and P2 (same geometry, same frame, different material) have the ideal stack and reach for me. I know the P3 and P4 are "longer and lower" and I thought if I could get comfortable on one I would be more aero/faster, but I know this comes at the cost of comfort and power output. While I like the P2 and realize it is an awesome bike, I've always doubted whether the minimal weight savings and the switch to carbon that a P2 brings would add any speed to this equation.
I'm getting into this discussion a little late, but you will be happy you went with the P2 for sure. I made the mistake of buying an aluminum road bike at the end of 2009 when I knew I wanted the carbon tri bike that I had a test fit and ride on. I ended up selling the road bike and buying the carbon tri bike 3 months later. I have since stepped up from the equinox to the speed concept, because I, like Matt A, like bike bling. I think that as long as the bike you buy is appropriate for fit and purpose, you should go with what you really want (budget taken into account).
@Michael- I like the bling. I love the bling! But if I can tell myself there's some advantage other than the bling, it's easier to spend the money. My wife just got an Orbea that cost 4X what I paid for my Dual and I think I'm a little jealous!
@Matt- Here is a closeup of my stem. There are two small spacers that total about 1cm. Is that cone-shaped one below the two thin ones counted as a spacer too? You can see that the angle of my stem is pretty extreme, and it can't be more than an inch (maybe 26mm) long.
Chris - I would say you have about 4-5 cm of spacers between the head tub and stem plus an upturned stem.
I always feel bad saying this but I don't think you are on the right size or type of frame and going to a P3 or P4 will not make things any better. If a P2 has about 2 - 3cm more stack then a P1 that might be ok, but i dobut it had that much more and becuase of how short your stem is I don't think you could get the next size up as it would be too long.
I see a few options: - Change your position. Get your saddle forward and in front of the BB, then rotate so the hip angle is the same. This will lower your front end and strech it out as well. From there you may be able to get a P2 one size larger and the combination of the new position and more stack in the frame will get rid of the need for the upturned stem and spacers. - Keep your position. If you want a new frame and are staying in the same position I strongly encourage you to look for a short and tall bike like a Orbea Ordu, Cannondale, Trek TTX or a few others. Cervelos are one of the lowests and longest bikes available and are really designed for people that ride with a very low front end. - Anohter (and sometimes better) way to add more stack wiht out spacers and an upturned stem is to get aerobars that have more stack. The vision ones you have are some of the lowest available and that is making your situation even worse. Profile Design, 3T and others all make bars with at least 2-3 cm more stack. - Leave it as is. If the bike works and you are pleased with it no need to make a change.
Your biggest improvement would come from lowering your body in the front, but that might not be possible.
How tall are you? Can you post a picture of you on the bike?
Maybe it is time for this to be a separate thread...
Plenty of room to put a flat (-17) stem there, whether you net lower the position or not. But, as Matt implies, if you put a flat stem in there, the equivalent spacer height will have that right up at the top, so you're about as high as you're going to get on that bike with a flat stem. (But you probably want to see if you can go lower, not higher anyway, so no big deal!)
Just at a glance, it's pretty obvious that your saddle is more forward on the new bike than the old one, which is probably reflective of the size change...you don't have to have the post so high, so it doesn't move you back as far. But it also looks like you had a lot more drop on the yellow bike than the sexy new one.
One comment I would make as far as comfort on the long rides (you mentioned this was as low as you wanted to go) is that "comfort" often has two major points. You might think about these as you work on your position for this year.
The first is your hip angle, and you may have a limitation where you can't be comfortable bringing that more acute than you want it now. If so, then you really have to pay attention to bringing the seat forward as you try to lower the front, so that you just rotate your body forward. Rotating how you actually contact the saddle forward can help here too, if you can tolerate that. We can't tell just by looking at the bikes how your new hip angle compares to what you had on the P1.
The other major "comfort point" is how your weight is supported in the front. You may find that subtle adjustments forward or back of where your elbow pads are will "miraculously" let you support more weight skeletally (as upposed to having to use a lot of muscle). Same can be true of width. If so, you might find yourself more comfortable lower than you thought. You also seem to have the extensions (and thus the pads) tilted up. Again, small changes here can make a big difference in how it feels like your front end weight is supported.
Any chance your LBS will let you spend some time messing about with spacers and their stem collection? I assume they will "fit" you more or less indefinitely if you bought the bike there.
Comments
I read Dan's recent piece on frames and my bike contains one of the things he was particularly critical of, an upturned stem (mine is extremely upturned). As a coincidence, my fitter also mentioned that if I were ever to get a new bike or frame, it would be more ideal to go up one size and run a flat stem. So of course, I think to myself, if I'm going to get a new frame, I might as well get something lighter and more aero like a P3.
I've considered flattening out my current stem to get lower, but in the end, I'm comfortable on my bike and I'm not sure I could go much lower and still be comfortable for 5+ hours.
What size is your current frame? What stem and spacers do yo have on their. If you were to get a new frame you may be better off on a tall/narrow bike that has more stack in the frame or with a different set of aerobars that have more stack between the bars and the pads.
I agree with Dan's thoughts on that stems and spacers. I have run -17 stems for the last 3 years and actually I first did it because I liked it being horizontal to mount a computer or water bottle on. I actually just ordered a new frame for this year and am sizing up. On my current frame (Small Orbea Ordu) I'm running a 110mm -17 stem with 3 cm of spacers. The new frame Ridley Dean will be a medium and I'll be running a 80mm -17 stem with only a 1 cm of spacer.
The other comment I should have made is the previous discussion is that I feel a mid tier bike from a high end manufacturer is often the best bang for the buck and the point of diminishing returns. The P2 is an amazing bike for the money and you have give up very little to the P3 or P4. Based on your picture the P2 may actually fit you better because of what you said about it having more stack than a P3/P4 (i know that was the case2 years ago, not sure if they changed that).
The picture was taken just before Louisville and I wasn't actually professionally fitted until a couple months after the race (I know, BIG taboo!).
The frame is a 58 which I decided upon after measuring my dimensions according to the Competitive Cyclist fit calculator. I basically just kept adjusting things on the bike until I was able to tolerate it for long rides. The stem is the shortest and steepest you can get but I don't know the exact measurements off the top of my head. I'll get them for you when I get home from work in the AM and try to get another picture.
The P1 and P2 (same geometry, same frame, different material) have the ideal stack and reach for me. I know the P3 and P4 are "longer and lower" and I thought if I could get comfortable on one I would be more aero/faster, but I know this comes at the cost of comfort and power output. While I like the P2 and realize it is an awesome bike, I've always doubted whether the minimal weight savings and the switch to carbon that a P2 brings would add any speed to this equation.
@Michael- I like the bling. I love the bling! But if I can tell myself there's some advantage other than the bling, it's easier to spend the money. My wife just got an Orbea that cost 4X what I paid for my Dual and I think I'm a little jealous!
@Matt- Here is a closeup of my stem. There are two small spacers that total about 1cm. Is that cone-shaped one below the two thin ones counted as a spacer too? You can see that the angle of my stem is pretty extreme, and it can't be more than an inch (maybe 26mm) long.
I always feel bad saying this but I don't think you are on the right size or type of frame and going to a P3 or P4 will not make things any better. If a P2 has about 2 - 3cm more stack then a P1 that might be ok, but i dobut it had that much more and becuase of how short your stem is I don't think you could get the next size up as it would be too long.
I see a few options:
- Change your position. Get your saddle forward and in front of the BB, then rotate so the hip angle is the same. This will lower your front end and strech it out as well. From there you may be able to get a P2 one size larger and the combination of the new position and more stack in the frame will get rid of the need for the upturned stem and spacers.
- Keep your position. If you want a new frame and are staying in the same position I strongly encourage you to look for a short and tall bike like a Orbea Ordu, Cannondale, Trek TTX or a few others. Cervelos are one of the lowests and longest bikes available and are really designed for people that ride with a very low front end.
- Anohter (and sometimes better) way to add more stack wiht out spacers and an upturned stem is to get aerobars that have more stack. The vision ones you have are some of the lowest available and that is making your situation even worse. Profile Design, 3T and others all make bars with at least 2-3 cm more stack.
- Leave it as is. If the bike works and you are pleased with it no need to make a change.
Your biggest improvement would come from lowering your body in the front, but that might not be possible.
How tall are you? Can you post a picture of you on the bike?
Maybe it is time for this to be a separate thread...
Plenty of room to put a flat (-17) stem there, whether you net lower the position or not. But, as Matt implies, if you put a flat stem in there, the equivalent spacer height will have that right up at the top, so you're about as high as you're going to get on that bike with a flat stem. (But you probably want to see if you can go lower, not higher anyway, so no big deal!)
Just at a glance, it's pretty obvious that your saddle is more forward on the new bike than the old one, which is probably reflective of the size change...you don't have to have the post so high, so it doesn't move you back as far. But it also looks like you had a lot more drop on the yellow bike than the sexy new one.
One comment I would make as far as comfort on the long rides (you mentioned this was as low as you wanted to go) is that "comfort" often has two major points. You might think about these as you work on your position for this year.
The first is your hip angle, and you may have a limitation where you can't be comfortable bringing that more acute than you want it now. If so, then you really have to pay attention to bringing the seat forward as you try to lower the front, so that you just rotate your body forward. Rotating how you actually contact the saddle forward can help here too, if you can tolerate that. We can't tell just by looking at the bikes how your new hip angle compares to what you had on the P1.
The other major "comfort point" is how your weight is supported in the front. You may find that subtle adjustments forward or back of where your elbow pads are will "miraculously" let you support more weight skeletally (as upposed to having to use a lot of muscle). Same can be true of width. If so, you might find yourself more comfortable lower than you thought. You also seem to have the extensions (and thus the pads) tilted up. Again, small changes here can make a big difference in how it feels like your front end weight is supported.
Any chance your LBS will let you spend some time messing about with spacers and their stem collection? I assume they will "fit" you more or less indefinitely if you bought the bike there.
Just food for thought.
Starting a new thread...