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Anything Ultra Running 2018
I know we have a handful of EN peeps Ultra Running this year (at least 2 others besides me attempting the 100 mile distance). Since its such a small group I thought I would create 1 thread for us to share/discuss ,training/racing, thoughts/theories , accountability/nutrition and/or absolutely anything Ultra ...
I hung up my triathlon hat after IMAZ in November. After a little recovery and a trip to Ultraman Hawaii to crew for Simon Shurey I officially started my Ultra Year on 12/4/17. Been reading/reviewing , wiki/race reports , all things Ultra in an attempt to further educate myself. Most recent book was https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01GQRFZS2/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?_encoding=UTF8&btkr=1 and thought it was very good. So in the last 10 weeks I have essentially, ZERO bike/swim time and around 50mpw running.... 2 Races complete 26k and 50k with good results... However I have a niggling calf injury since the 50k 11 days ago... Today I actually ran 3.5 miles and then walked back... Working through this calf thing and trying to get some SAND running specificity in for the Antelope 50 miler coming up in 3 weeks.... After that going to focus on lots of elevation gain/loss with hiking involved to prep for R2R2R... And then it will be all about the Vermont 100 in July, which is mostly dirt roads but relentless hills and about 17k elevation, so the focus will be , yep hills.... After that I will get back on my bike for the SOS triathlon in Sept but I am signed up for another 100 called the Ghost Train in NH, this one is flat and close to home, have no idea which distance I will run or attempt at this point...
Thats it for now... Lets hear from the Ultra Peeps.. What are you racing? How are you preparing? Are you still biking/swimming? Books? Resources? Thoughts?
I hung up my triathlon hat after IMAZ in November. After a little recovery and a trip to Ultraman Hawaii to crew for Simon Shurey I officially started my Ultra Year on 12/4/17. Been reading/reviewing , wiki/race reports , all things Ultra in an attempt to further educate myself. Most recent book was https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01GQRFZS2/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?_encoding=UTF8&btkr=1 and thought it was very good. So in the last 10 weeks I have essentially, ZERO bike/swim time and around 50mpw running.... 2 Races complete 26k and 50k with good results... However I have a niggling calf injury since the 50k 11 days ago... Today I actually ran 3.5 miles and then walked back... Working through this calf thing and trying to get some SAND running specificity in for the Antelope 50 miler coming up in 3 weeks.... After that going to focus on lots of elevation gain/loss with hiking involved to prep for R2R2R... And then it will be all about the Vermont 100 in July, which is mostly dirt roads but relentless hills and about 17k elevation, so the focus will be , yep hills.... After that I will get back on my bike for the SOS triathlon in Sept but I am signed up for another 100 called the Ghost Train in NH, this one is flat and close to home, have no idea which distance I will run or attempt at this point...
Thats it for now... Lets hear from the Ultra Peeps.. What are you racing? How are you preparing? Are you still biking/swimming? Books? Resources? Thoughts?
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I highly recommend you keep biking! I think the biggest mistake I made in 2016 was to run only. I never had quite the same fitness that year without the bike. Plus, it might help even you out and help keep you from injury. I think swimming is less important but it could help keep your core strong which is good for ultra running.
My plan is a bit crazy. I am doing IM Santa Rosa on May 12 and the AC 100 early August. In between those two I have to run a 50 miler as a qualifier to run the 100. At this point the best option I can find is early June... So I am just going to have to parlay my IM fitness into being able to get through 50 miles just 4 weeks later. I think I should be fine as long as I don't push myself and just "git-er-done".
For the AC 100 I will do things different this time and never stop biking. I am thinking I will keep my runs low intensity and long and keep all intensity on bike to keep fitness high? Something like 2-3 bikes per week 1 hour at a time? I have been doing all swimming on the Vasa and I will probably keep it up as well because it is pretty low friction in my life to get it done, and it keeps my upper body strong.
As far as run training for AC, I will probably get up to 60-70mpw with back to back long runs on the weekends that peak with 50k. That is what I did last time. I also plan to spend a week up at > 8000 altitude close in time to the race to acclimate.
As far as nutrition I am going to go with what I know works for me... and that is 80+ scoops of tailwind!
Is there a Facebook group for your Vermont race? AC 100 has a Facebook page that is invaluable.
Other tips:
Orange Mud makes great stuff. They make arm sleeves that have 4 different pockets in them that you can stuff ice into. That is pretty awesome for an Ultra. I also like their running packs.
Don't dilly dally in the aid stations. I gave up a lot of time in 2016 by fumbling around and taking too long in aid stations. If you have a crew consider having multiple vests that you can just trade at each aid station.
If you are mixing powder in a hydration pack, make sure everyone knows just how thoroughly it must be mixed. Nothing worse than running out of an aid station and realizing tube is clogged with powder.
Also, methodically plan each aid station. At AC 100 some aid stations are 45 minutes apart and there is one gap of 3 hours. For the 3 hour stretch I would take 100oz of fluid. On the 45 minute stretch I would ditch the vest all together and go with just a hand held to give my back a break. (This is only possible if you have a crew I guess). I am running Solo this year (No Crew) pray for me.
1. Run lots of mileage- as posted been averaging 50mpw
2. Hike lots of elevation (mostly for R2R2R but time on the feet will be invaluable for Vt. 100) did this for a month but stopped to get through 50k and 50mile races , will pick that back up all thru March
3. Run with intensity intervals- made it through one 3 week block of 2x a week v02 before recent calf set back
4. Strength Work- 2-3 times per week since 12/4 but also on the back burner with calf
5. Swim/Bike- as mentioned little to none
Without a swim or bike event until September and having just finished off last year with 3 IM's and 1 UM I immediately dropped the swim/bike ( it helped that Heather was recovering from Rotator cuff surgery and could only run)... Last time in 2015 when I tackled the 50 miler I kept the swim/bike and that worked out fine but it was a lot of work... I really want to train specifically for this distance... So I decided to implement 2x per week run interval sessions to make up for the lost intensity of swim/bike.. Jason Koop recommends 2-3 interval sessions per week even for 100 milers going from least specific to most specific, think 1-3 min vo2 intervals 20 weeks out to 20-30min Z3 intervals during the specificity within 8 weeks....When I get back to NH I will be swimming almost every day this summer since its 50' from the house and I love it... You really have me thinking about getting back on the bike sooner rather than later...
Vt. 100 is something like 2 miles of pavement, 68 miles gravel roads, and 30 miles horse trails and 17k elevation.... 25 aid stations will be almost like an Ironman... Koop talks about the specificity of this race in his book, says to train hills on roads, its all runnable so most errors occur by over running the hills at the beginning, says more people cook themselves on the first half than they do out west at much more seemingly difficult terrain.
Yes they have a FB page.
I need a qualifier as well , thankfully my Ultraman Florida run works in case I dont make my 50 miler.
I also need to complete 8hrs of volunteer work at an Ultra event or pay a $200 buy out which I think is very cool . Thinking of volunteering at the Old Pueblo I ran a few years ago. I know a couple people racing there.
I keep looking at Orange Mud will have to try one of those vests soon. I have a Nathan which I love (very comfortable). The Ultimate direction also makes one I like that holds 2 bottles in front . For Vermont (25 aid stations) I can probably go hand held or a minimal vest like Ultimate with very small bottles . I chose this race for proximity but also the chance of weather I can handle. If anything it could be humid/raining but chance of really cold weather is very slim.
SOLO is very brave or crazy . Specially with that 3 hour gap??? The 50k I just did had a 13 mile gap which was ok with the temps we had.
Still a chance I get to MOAB :-)
Maybe I’ll be first wheel for more than 3 mins!
More about the bike, when I look at the competitive 100 guys around here they are all running over 100 miles per week, but they have built up to that over many years of ultra racing. Us Tri guys that dabble in ultra don't have the ability to suddenly jump up to 100 miles week in week out without burning out and getting hurt. I see the bike as an advantage. We have a way in our back pocket to really boost our fitness in a way that the pure ultra guys can't.
In my experience, bike fitness can add to run fitness. Much more than run fitness does to bike fitness.
Muscloskeletally, not so much, either way, which is why it's still important to pound the pavement.
@Scott Alexander In 2015 I did an Ultra winter taking on my first 50k and 50miler while maintaining swim/bike, I built up to a 70mpw peak running mileage, but I did essentially ZERO run intensity... I was very happy with both Ultra results and later followed up with an outstanding Triathlon season... So I know that works... However the 100 mile distance is another animal, I want to do 2x intensity sessions per week running, time in the gym strength work, and hrs of hiking elevation, and when I do , something has to give, I also need very easy recovery days ... I agree cycling adds to running much more than running adds to cycling , if I was doing a cycling focus I would most definitely maintain the run with short easy runs , however during a run focus I really dont see the benefit of easy bikes other than fun and recovery, if it turns out I cant do the 2x per week run intensity sessions , bringing back the bike intensity would be a no brainer.... Its not that I am anti bike its just , does it fit , will it help more than any of my other priorities.
I will say that I seem to maintain a much better/easier preferred body comp when cycling vs. running.
My goal for this year is what I'm calling the Trifecta of Ultra Distance Events:
I took last year off from any road events to play in the dirt. I figured training for an early season Ironman would be effective to build a big engine -- and I'll admit it, I missed the Lycra. I could also do most of the training indoors through the early winter months. Last year, I kicked the season off with the Buffalo Run 50-miler in March, and didn't feel like I had enough specificity for the trails with all the indoor training through the brutal winter we experienced. Of course, this year we've had the most mild winter in SLC history, and I've been out trail running and/or MTBing just about every weekend. I've got the Canyonlands Half Marathon in Moab in March and Oceanside 70.3 in April as build up races. So far it's been fun doing more intensity and getting speed back in my legs.
The Tushar Crusher is a cycling race that has fascinated me since a buddy first told me about it. It's a mixed roads/dirt surface race where you can ride either a MTB or CX bike. The joke is "whatever you choose, you'll be wrong at some point in the race." I couldn't make it work the last two years, but figure I can coast in off my Ironman bike fitness and just do it for fun. It also gives me an excuse to work in at least one MTB ride per week.
The Wasatch 100 will be the Big Race for the year. I don't expect IMSR or the Tushar Crusher combined to be as difficult. I have the new Twisted Fork 64k in Park City at the end of June and Katcina Mosa 100k in August lined up as training races. Those could change depending on how the season shakes out.
I paced a buddy through the Devil's Armpit section of the Wasatch 100 last year. It gave me a good taste of what's in store:
- A crapton of vert with over 24,000ft. The Bear was somewhere around 22,000ft, and that was tough.
- Technical trails that favor power hikers. The Bear was similar. It was amazing to see the veteran ultra runners hike at 3.5-4 MPH. I'll have to work on my hiking speed and train with my hiking poles. My carbon poles were money for the Bear. I bought them the day after I got in off the waitlist, just two weeks before the race, when I saw the elevation profile. I trained with them twice. I'll have to get much more efficient.
- Potential to be hot -- and heat is my kryptonite. It was in the high 80s and exposed on the section I paced. I brought two bags of ice for my runner and did the EN go-bag trick. He was torched when I picked him up, but I brought him back to life by sticking a bag of ice on his back, pouring my icy water on his head as it melted, and generous doses of Coke and Snickers. I'll ask him to do the same for me.
The good news about Wastatch is that the entire course is within an hour drive of my house. I'll be able to train right on the course.I'm really looking forward to this season! It's going to be a heck of a mess of fun!
Good luck!
Question for those that have run 100 miles.
When would you place your last 50k or 50 mile race prior to the 100? Which one and why?
Since I dont have anything long scheduled between 4/10 and 7/21 I wanted to place a 50k or 50miler as my last really long prep day...I had originally thought about a local 50k 5 weeks out and then I found this one 6 weeks out. Its a great location at a ski area only a couple hours from the house.
https://www.thenorthface.com/get-outdoors/endurance-challenge/massachusetts.html
the 50k has 6k elevation - 193' per mile
the 50m has 9500 elevation - 190' per mile
the Vermont 100 has 17k elevation - 170' per mile
I like the idea of 6 weeks out vs. 5???, which would allow recovery, a couple weeks specific volume, and then a taper... The key for me will be to make it a training day and not a race day.... I'm thinking the 50mile will be almost perfect catered RR... When I race a 50 mile like next weekend I cant really practice 100 mile pace/nutrition... My only other day will be R2R2R which will be a great day on the feet but more of a hiking day...
I'd recommend doing a 50 miler six weeks out, if you can find one the works with your schedule. Ideally it should be harder pound for pound than your 100. I got lucky that the 50 miles I ran at Leadville was exactly six weeks out from the Bear, so it ended up serving as a training run. At six weeks, you can recover for 1-2 weeks and then get in one last block of quality with some back-to-back long runs before tapering Five weeks could also work depending on how fast you recover. I usually bounce back from a 50 in a week. For Wasatch, I'm planning to do a 100k five weeks before. A lot of locals use it as a prep race as it is also in the Wasatch Range and similar level of difficulty. The part that sucks is that it has a 3AM start time, presumably so most runners finish in the light.
My Updates- Hip is bugging me since the 50 miler, I am walking, hiking, back in the gym, even dusted off the bike, heck might jump in the pool, but no running for another week. While my big picture goal is the Vermont 100 , the most important thing coming up soon is R2R2R with Heather, I am more than likely going to stand down on a 30k I am signed up for in 2 weeks, will watch her run and either volunteer or just walk one of the shorter distances, But I gotta be able to R2R2R on 4/10 even if we have to hike most of it. I'll worry about Vermont after that... I volunteered at the Old Pueblo 25/50/75 yesterday and got my 8 hours of volunteer requirement fulfilled so have met all the qualifications to run Vermont 100.
Gear Review- I bought and tried an Ultra Aspire race vest, forget the model off the top of my head but it was a Jurek , and 2 soft flasks in front.... DID NOT LIKE IT... The soft flasks still have a hard top and the edges dug into my chest, then as I drank and there was less fluid the vest felt loose, then the bottles start to fall too far down into the pouches.... Still need to try an Orange Mud with bottles on the back and I also like the one they have with small 1 liter pouch in back... I still love my Nathan so I am not in need just searching alternatives, I can always go with a smaller bladder in the Nathan. Really think I am liking the bladder on back drinking hose design the best.
I have two Salomon running vests and love them. If you haven't tried soft flasks, it may be worth checking out. So much more comfortable than hard flasks.
use in addtition to headlamps on R2R2R :-)
bottom of the south rim to have right before the final slog up! Good place
to drop lights too!
Brenda brings up a good point about hiring a coach. I've mostly gone it on my own during my ultras, reading books, listening to podcasts, and talking to other ultrarunners. We take for granted that RnP took triathlon and distilled it down to an easy-to-follow recipe. There is no EN for ultrarunners. Heck, there isn't even a Slowtwitch for ultrarunners. I'm considering hiring an ultra coach after IMSR for Wasatch. The Bear made me appreciate how much more I have to learn to achieve mastery of ultras.
Anyone else considering a coach?
I truly believe in EN as a self-coached model, guided by Coach P, and our peers. The model really works well if you can think and adjust for yourself. We need to be self motivated and really in tune with what works and how much. Having said that I have always been interested in a one on one situation where I have a very experienced Coach looking at every single one of my files, power, hr, pace, etc and really get into tune with me. Some of the most impressive Coaching stuff I have read is from Gordo Byrnes at endurancecorner.com... He really lays it out how every one is individual, but first goes about it via some generalities, like male vs. female, old vs. young, large vs. small, because in general there are certain things/techniques that work for certain genders, ages, sizes, body types. I really liked that.
1st time was 2012/13 . I tried to hire Dr. Skiba, he drug me along for a few weeks before finally saying he did not have a slot for me , and recommended his partner David Tillbury. I was pretty pissed and blew David off , but he was apologetic and persistent. I eventually hired him for 2 consultations. I learned quite a bit but never hired him or anyone else. I structured my training largely on Skiba's books and that consultation with great success. I was training for a go a KONA slot at IMTX 2013, training on TM and trainer in NH, to this day that was my best 20 weeks of training ever. Looking back I dont think I could repeat it ... Older and not as hungry... BTW David Tillbury Coaches Lionel Sanders Now and you cant get in with him anymore. He really knows his stuff.
2nd time was for UMFL (first time going UM distance)
3rd time was for IMWC ( last year , age up, hoping to podium)
So each time I considered a Coach it was for something new, or looking for that 1%. However I decided to go both of those on my own due to expense and I cant argue with past results.
Which brings me to the last time I considered a Coach. Right NOW . Why? because I am yet again training for an unknown the Vermont 100. As mentioned I read Jason Koop's book. I have been unable to follow the intensity he recommends. I continue to read and educate myself to this Ultra 100 and I do plan to stay self coached. If I was training for something like Leadville where the specificity of that course/altitude etc comes into play I may go the coached route, but I dont think there is anything specific enough about the Vermont 100 I can learn other than the distance is something I have never done. We all know this kinda thing is 90% mental, there are so many ways to do the physical, the mental maybe a teachable thing but it also has to be self learned, I think most of us here , already have it. Specially those like @Gabe Petersonand @Peter Noyes who have already gone the distance...
Heck here are two wko's I plan to incorporate.
1. In Koops book, spend a day standing (never sit down)
2. Heather gave me this one from a group she belongs to.
4x4x48... Run 4 miles, every 4hrs , for 48hrs.... I like that idea, it gets you 48 miles in 2 days, and gets you outside running around the clock.
I re-read your earlier posts. Koop's plan sounds intense! I haven't read his book -- just ordered it off Amazon. My first blush is that I'd worry about getting injured doing that kind of intensity with high volume. Last year I did the EN reverse periodization thing with several weeks of Get Faster before I ramped up the volume. Then on the run-focused weeks I'd follow the template from Bryon Powell's Relentless Forward Progress. He allows for some speed work, but I can't say I did much once I got deep into into. Instead I'd target really challenging runs in the mountains. I usually made sure it would have some runnable downhill stretches where I could open it up, especially towards the end so I could practice running fast on tired legs.
My take is the books are good at the training side, but they leave out a lot on the execution side. RnP really distilled triathlon execution down, but I haven't seen anyone has done that for ultras, especially 100s. Maybe there are just too many variables in a 100. For example, it's really hard to prepare for running through the night. One experienced ultra runner told me he prepared by going out Friday night after work when he was tired and running repeats up Mt Timpanogos all night. I'm going to incorporate this into my Wasatch training.
I'm wondering if a coach would accelerate that learning curve for ultras? I'm thinking I'll try Marvin Sandoval, who I met as part of the Leadman last year (he ended up on the podium). He is a rare coach who does MTBing and ultrarunning, since I'm doing the it-sounds-like-a-great-idea-now-but-will-sound really-stupid-in-July plan of the Tushar Crusher and Wasatch. He spent a few hours walking me through the MTB 100 and Run 100 courses. There are also a couple big name ultrarunners/coaches in Utah, like Karl Metzler and Jeff Browning.
A guy who works for me (and did R2R2R with me) has been on the wait list for the past 3 years. He started this year at number 11 and has been inching his way up as others drop out. He's been sitting at #1 on the wait list for several weeks now and just this past weekend found out that he FINALLY got into this year's race (a short few weeks before the actual race). Seems like insanity to me, but he was really excited to receive his "Condolences Letter"...
@Gabe Peterson I found EN from the IMLOU 4keys DVD , right before I did my first Ironman which was IMLOU 2010, all I took out of that 4 keys video was the walk breaks at every aid station on the run , and I pretty much killed it with an 11:42 debut in one of the hottest IMLOU's on record... That one little piece of advice saved my day... I joined EN right after that! I didnt even know who those guys were in the video.
Koop doesnt really present a plan in that book, but again has lots of generalities, similar to IM it is very individual IMO. He is a big believer in intervals (the right ones at the right time for the right person etc) vs. so many other Ultra plans which are just mileage, elevation, strength etc... I really liked his explanation of everything... Unfortunately for me I havent been able to execute on the intensity/intervals which is due to my racing not training. When I get through this hip thing I will try to find that balance of training/racing sweet spot. I have got back in pool and on the bike but nothing crazy...
I really cant see how one can go wrong by hiring a Coach who is intimately familiar with the distance and the Specific Race Course.
I skimmed through Koop's book. I like what I'm reading. Most of the ultra training approaches are basically: run trails, then run trails some more. I flipped to the back of the book to read his course reviews of Wasatch and Leadville to calibrate his knowledge. In other words, did it match my experiences. The Leadville breakdown is one of the best I've read, and contains nuisances you don't get from reading blogs.
Koop hasn't done many podcasts but I did find this one on the Science of Ultras. Here are my notes:
- High End Aerobic -- HM or tempo effort for most athletes, 4 sessions per week
Doesn't believe in using HR for ultras. I disagree and think it is useful as a governor the first ~20 miles of a 50 or 100. After that, you won't need a governor.Recovery is about the psychology of the runner. Some athletes can dial in 70% effort and race frequently. Others, bury themselves and need more recovery.
Specificity -- training should include balance of running and hiking. Calculate how much percent of the time you will hike in a 100. Then do that as a percentage of training. Running and hiking are different.
I loved the three most common mistakes he highlighted for ultrarunners (which he said also apply to triathletes):
- Too much focus on volume.
- Not enough intensity.
- Not enough specificity.
Sound familiar?If you haven’t shared that link already, I would appreciate it if you did
so I could listen and learn.
We absolutely intend on extending endurance nation in this regard which is
why I reached out to everyone for people to interview and to get to know
the community better (via GroupMe).
When we launch the website shortly, there will be options to sign up and
train for ultra and I will be building those plans as we go. Thanks in
advance for your help.
~ Coach P
@tim cronk sadly, Vermont 100 is the same week end as IMLP, I would have volunteer for that race in order to get my requirements in.
@John Withrow wow its nice that you know someone that going to do that race.. that thing looks like one of the ultimate stupid idea
Here are my thoughts on where EN could change the game: