@George Penn While there are many ways to skin the cat in this ultra business and there is definitely some merit in your plan, I think your race is coming up too soon to incorporate it, many have used similar, either bike before/after long run on same day or bike the day before /after a longrun, like @Scott Giljum said the gold standard or most practiced Ultra prep is back to back long runs, X2 though unless you believe yourself to be at risk of injury a bike/run combo would then be better than nothing. Your race is only 4 weeks out so I would stick to back to back long runs for the next two weekends before begining your taper. Think 15-20 miles each day based on your build up to this point on the most course specific terrain you can find or even better yet on the race course. Fwiw I incorporated something similar into my training this year, doing a longrun on saturday, then on sunday doing the EN Zwift ride up to 1.5hrs then doing a longrun up to 2hrs, I did this 8-12 weeks out from my key race, switching to all specificity 7 weeks out and dropping that weekend bike.
@George Penn I second @tim cronk's advice. Do the most specific things this close to your race. I'm a big believer in using the bike to build up the engine, but four weeks out you're not going to dramatically change your engine. I'd focus on layering on specificity. Back-to-back long runs are money for ultras. They get you used to running on tired legs and discovering that you can punch through the fatigue. Beast of Burden looks very runnable without much climbing. The downside is that you won't get many hiking breaks, so you may want to have planned walking breaks. Measuring your effort the first half will probably be key. Can you pre-run the course? Or do you have something similar to practice on?
@Gabe Peterson@“tim cronk” Thanks for the advice! My running plan has been running 4 hours on Saturday and 3-4 hours on Sunday. The runs are doable. I was just looking for a little variety to keep things interesting. The course I am running now is exactly what I’ll be doing on race day, so I think I’m in a good position. I have another route that I can run that will give me about 1000 feet of climbing. Do you think I should incorporate some hills?
@Scott Giljum I don’t think I’m in danger of getting hurt but I’m afraid that I’ll get bored. lol My weekend runs are averaging 4 hours on Saturday and 3-4 on Sunday.
I have chosen to forgo my 50 mile run this year. For whatever reason, my legs have not rebounded from the constant long runs on the weekends. I’m sure I can do some kind of local 1/2 marathon instead. Good luck on your runs.
Dumb question....(but not unexpected considering the source)... BTW...NOT part of the PLAN from @Coach Patrick
So I'm thinking about running in a 24 hr trail race - The Copper Cowboy....goal is the 62miles -in the "Heavy division" -adding 25#lb. its on SEPT 29 -not really fitting into my HIM Indian wells plan -by far enough out I think Ill be OK. (14 weeks out)
Here is my "issue"...I have been OLY training with 8 miles longest run for last few months....Actually my last Long anything was Battaan Death march ( 42#Ruck) Marathon in April [8:20]...just getting ready to bump up the VOL and HIM training at 20wks out right after USAT NATS.... AND I will be gone for 3 weeks on Family -cruise- vacation (*maybe* able to get in some KB/Strength and some short TM runs/high grade power walking) with about 1.5 weeks before this race.
My plan is a pace that would = 20 hrs to hit the 62 miles (6.2 mile loop) with a forced rest every loop and have spare rest time for later loops. (I'll feel out the course on first lap or so and adjust If its what I think 18 hrs of 'effort' may be more likely.) It doesn't appear to be that technical and w/o massive up/downs [map and notes not yet published] so a jog/walk should be doable. and at 180# a 20# pack isn't a huge % of my bodyweight.
I've run a 50ml race ~30 yr ago...but we aren't going to talk about THAT... LOL For fitness level ~ I'm probable at a 1:45 1/2M currently. No real problems mentally for going long n' slow (and suffering)...I'm kinda stubborn that way.
I still will need to get in base work on bike with some 2-3hr rides as well at the same time, And I plan on more VASA/Strength focus for Swim so = less swim hrs. I work 3-4days per week 12-14hr shifts and wife/fam usually takes at least 1 full day (and work nights) Oh, and I'm an 'Ol Army guy 27 yrs-still in ...so that might tell you I've had a few tweaks and bruises...But at > 50 Y/O I still can hang with the kids at Air Assault etc...right now only active issues are my 95% better Achilles tendonosis and my wonky back -I can break up the spasms with a "ball on a stick device" I can carry on run. (Its probably the 10+ TBIs that make me think this is a good idea LOL)
I've gotten a lot of benefit for climbing Runs from KB swings and Low gear work on bike when training for the Mt Lemmon Marathon (the old "all up" version-Google it ) I figure IF I can get that kind of work on trip I wont loose too much. (+ swim bands and general core) I'll mix in pure Strength 1x week with DL and single leg work [with stability work]- no problem with getting the recommended "no leg work for 72hrs" after heavy leg day when on trip. My Bro-in law [serous MTB guy] is on trip and my wife can 'play' with her mom/sister on ship while the boys can go to gym for 30"-1hr for maybe 3-4days week (?)
So besides the "um, sounds like a bad idea right now".... any thoughts on:
Maximizing my limited type/time WKOs on trip and the brief periods of training time leading up to run.
10 loop race ....Should I break up into 3rds as far as pace and planned longer breaks? ....Plan a power nap in the middle or push through and only nap if absolutely must -My plan.
No real gut issues or food tolerance problems. ...plan on trailing some PBJs and other "real food" items on the few LSD runs leading up to race. I did PBJs w/o issues on first IM Ride(6:30)....I don't now that I ride ~5:15-5:30. Pickle juice as needed (works for me)...'lite tabs on schedule. ...aminos .... change up the drinks to prevent plate fatigue...
The only times I had "booty-issues" was the few times I didn't have my pre-race Beer! True fact- I did it my first marathon (Mt Lemmon with no running for years and ~3months to train....did it to calm my fear and as a Hasher tradition). Then as a joke... but the times I didn't (I've missed it a couple marathons and one IM...All with bad results)I ended up in outhouses ! So... I *Have to* have my (sip) of pre-race beer. Defiantly going to ensure I Have My Kona lager key nutritional support at start (and several at finish!).
Hello all- I guess I am writing because I need a little reassurance.
I am not a newbie to endurance sports, but I am by no means a veteran. I been racing triathon for about 6 years, but I took the last 2 years off (due to nagging injuries and life seemed to get in the way). I am 6'2" and weigh 206lbs (this is a lot for me. I usually hover in the low 190's and lowest/safest race weight is low mid 180's). My PR's are HIM 5:29, Oly 2:24, Marathon 4:02, 1/2 Marathon 1:38. As some of you have seen my other treads, this is MY COMEBACK. I have a lot of work to do, but I am also injury prone (due over training).
I have decided that my comeback event will be a 100km Ultra. I am targeting April 2019 as there are a lot in Europe to chose from around that time. So Here is the real question... Am I NUTS? Is there enough time to get the weight down, build a huge aerobic engine, and then put in 12+ weeks of solid training?? I know that only my body can give me these answers, but I'd like to hear your thoughts.
@David Howard - one word CRAZY my shoulders hurt already , not to mention my lower back. Look forward to this!
@Patrick Large - Quick answer is YES lots of time to meet weight/fitness goals and NO you are not Crazy like the above David Howard. The real question is where are you coming from (How many miles per week etc) and how carefully you will build to where you want to be. A slow , steady, gradual approach to building miles, strength, and body comp is the way to go to ensure minimal injury set backs. So with that in mind, what has your average MPW been over the last 3/6/12 months ? Have you looked at the EN Ultra plan? Have you picked the 100k Ultra? Make sure to allow 4-8 weeks of specificity leading into the race.
@Tim Cronk, that's part of my hesitation... for the past 2 years running has been sporadic. I've gone on 2 month streaks of 20 miles a week, then 10km for the next 3 months. Running for the past 3 months has been minimal.
With that said, like most of us, once I have seriously committed to a goal, I am a bit obsessive/neurotic about staying the course. So once I choose the race and pay, I will eat, breath, and sleep fitness/trail running.
I also have a friend here in Holland who has done multiple ultras, even multi day crazy 300KM nutty stuff. So along with the new training plans, all of you, and him, i am hoping I am in good shape.
My buddy is one of the guy featured in this short documentary.
So my 100KM Ultra is Mid June 2019. I want to do a 50KM race as a "hard training" session when I am in the middle of my peak/true Ultra specific training. With that said WHEN is a good time to plan it... how far from the 100KM date should it be?
I've gotten some advice from Coach P- but wanted to hear your thoughts as you guys have done 100KM events.
@Patrick Large I like the 4-6 week out from 100k window, this gives you a couple different weeks to find one that fits, enough time for recovery, and a couple more weeks training before the taper. The key is to be trained for that event and do no damage.
Hey guys- I didnt want to start a new thread but want to run something by the ultra guys. I have been using final surge for the past couple of weeks and besides training plans being preloaded, I am not sure I love it.
What do you like about FS what dont you like.
What do you gain or lose in terms of functionality over TrainingPeaks?
@Patrick Large FS has the ability to import your plan, move via drag drop and edit wko's , and @Coach Patrick can also view if you have a Coach thread going.
The remainder of 2018. I am signed up for The Ghost Train Ultra on 10/20-21. Its a flat , railroad bed, out and back of 15 miles per lap, 30hr cut off, no DNF's , you can complete as many laps as you choose. Distance for me is yet TBD. I took 3 weeks off running after Vt100, then a solid build SBR for the one and only triathlon I will do this year SOS. Eased into running this week and did back to back 15's last weekend. I could definitely still feel the fatigue of racing last weekend's SOS. Planning to build the next 3 weekends before tapering into the GT. Will focus my longrun/walk weekends on the track and one weekend on the course itself. Heather will be racing and plans to do 3 laps or 45 miles but I have a feeling she could do more:-)
@Patrick Large Heather and I did it 4/10 this year on our 25th Anniversary. Never did a RR sorry. Highly recommend it. And have lots more thoughts after you pick time/date etc. In the mean time FB has a very good group with tons of current info. August? Probably not a good idea due to heat. April-May and Oct-Nov are supposed to be the best months or at least the most likely to get reasonable temps.
@Patrick Large I'm planning to do R2R2R probably in early November. I echo what @tim cronk said that August would be dangerous time to attempt it. The temps can hit 120F in the canyon!
Man I'd love to join you in November, but I'l be back in Netherlands. I am only in the US for 2 maybe 3 weeks in August. We stay in Flagstaff so I am sure there will be fun to be had there.
@Francis Picard I'm thinking November this year. Feeling really good coming off Wasatch and want to roll that fitness into one more adventure for the year.
I know that there are other specific forums, but I want to get the most eyes so I am asking here.
I've been running trail in my Saucony Peregins and like them. My Ultra in Zugspitze I believe is pretty technical so I am looking into some alternatives. Would like something super grippy. And as far as I can tell at least in past years there are at least some decents in the snow.
What have you tried / raced in ? What have you liked/hared? Why?
Patrick, I’ve been running in the Hoke evo mafate. They are a touch pricey, but offer good grip with good cushion at a relatively light weight. If you can handle a narrow toe box, I’ve heard really good things about speed goat 2, but they are too narrow for my feet, so I can’t confirm or deny.
From someone who is a perpetual state of searching for the perfect shoe. I have a pair of Peregrine's which I like (note the work like not love which is a recurring theme with all my shoes). Altra has been by go too . Both of these are grippy enough for me. I used to rock climb and had Five Ten approach shoes as well as many rock climbing shoes which are equipped with sticky or stealth rubber. That stuff really works and works on wet surfaces as well. Something like this interests me. But like anything fit is most important.
Comments
My weekend runs are averaging 4 hours on Saturday and 3-4 on Sunday.
Good luck on your runs.
BTW...NOT part of the PLAN from @Coach Patrick
So I'm thinking about running in a 24 hr trail race - The Copper Cowboy....goal is the 62miles -in the "Heavy division" -adding 25#lb.
its on SEPT 29 -not really fitting into my HIM Indian wells plan -by far enough out I think Ill be OK. (14 weeks out)
Here is my "issue"...I have been OLY training with 8 miles longest run for last few months....Actually my last Long anything was Battaan Death march ( 42#Ruck) Marathon in April [8:20]...just getting ready to bump up the VOL and HIM training at 20wks out right after USAT NATS....
AND
I will be gone for 3 weeks on Family -cruise- vacation (*maybe* able to get in some KB/Strength and some short TM runs/high grade power walking) with about 1.5 weeks before this race.
My plan is a pace that would = 20 hrs to hit the 62 miles (6.2 mile loop) with a forced rest every loop and have spare rest time for later loops. (I'll feel out the course on first lap or so and adjust If its what I think 18 hrs of 'effort' may be more likely.) It doesn't appear to be that technical and w/o massive up/downs [map and notes not yet published] so a jog/walk should be doable. and at 180# a 20# pack isn't a huge % of my bodyweight.
I've run a 50ml race ~30 yr ago...but we aren't going to talk about THAT... LOL
For fitness level ~ I'm probable at a 1:45 1/2M currently. No real problems mentally for going long n' slow (and suffering)...I'm kinda stubborn that way.
I still will need to get in base work on bike with some 2-3hr rides as well at the same time, And I plan on more VASA/Strength focus for Swim so = less swim hrs.
I work 3-4days per week 12-14hr shifts and wife/fam usually takes at least 1 full day (and work nights)
Oh, and I'm an 'Ol Army guy 27 yrs-still in ...so that might tell you I've had a few tweaks and bruises...But at > 50 Y/O I still can hang with the kids at Air Assault etc...right now only active issues are my 95% better Achilles tendonosis and my wonky back -I can break up the spasms with a "ball on a stick device" I can carry on run. (Its probably the 10+ TBIs that make me think this is a good idea LOL)
I've gotten a lot of benefit for climbing Runs from KB swings and Low gear work on bike when training for the Mt Lemmon Marathon (the old "all up" version-Google it
So besides the "um, sounds like a bad idea right now".... any thoughts on:
Maximizing my limited type/time WKOs on trip and the brief periods of training time leading up to run.
10 loop race ....Should I break up into 3rds as far as pace and planned longer breaks? ....Plan a power nap in the middle or push through and only nap if absolutely must -My plan.
No real gut issues or food tolerance problems. ...plan on trailing some PBJs and other "real food" items on the few LSD runs leading up to race. I did PBJs w/o issues on first IM Ride(6:30)....I don't now that I ride ~5:15-5:30. Pickle juice as needed (works for me)...'lite tabs on schedule. ...aminos .... change up the drinks to prevent plate fatigue...
The only times I had "booty-issues" was the few times I didn't have my pre-race Beer! True fact- I did it my first marathon (Mt Lemmon with no running for years and ~3months to train....did it to calm my fear and as a Hasher tradition). Then as a joke... but the times I didn't (I've missed it a couple marathons and one IM...All with bad results)I ended up in outhouses ! So... I *Have to* have my (sip) of pre-race beer. Defiantly going to ensure I Have My Kona lager key nutritional support at start (and several at finish!).
Other experienced advice given the constraints...
THANX!
Dave
Hello all- I guess I am writing because I need a little reassurance.
I am not a newbie to endurance sports, but I am by no means a veteran. I been racing triathon for about 6 years, but I took the last 2 years off (due to nagging injuries and life seemed to get in the way). I am 6'2" and weigh 206lbs (this is a lot for me. I usually hover in the low 190's and lowest/safest race weight is low mid 180's). My PR's are HIM 5:29, Oly 2:24, Marathon 4:02, 1/2 Marathon 1:38. As some of you have seen my other treads, this is MY COMEBACK. I have a lot of work to do, but I am also injury prone (due over training).
I have decided that my comeback event will be a 100km Ultra. I am targeting April 2019 as there are a lot in Europe to chose from around that time. So Here is the real question... Am I NUTS? Is there enough time to get the weight down, build a huge aerobic engine, and then put in 12+ weeks of solid training?? I know that only my body can give me these answers, but I'd like to hear your thoughts.
@David Howard - one word CRAZY my shoulders hurt already , not to mention my lower back. Look forward to this!
@Patrick Large - Quick answer is YES lots of time to meet weight/fitness goals and NO you are not Crazy like the above David Howard. The real question is where are you coming from (How many miles per week etc) and how carefully you will build to where you want to be. A slow , steady, gradual approach to building miles, strength, and body comp is the way to go to ensure minimal injury set backs. So with that in mind, what has your average MPW been over the last 3/6/12 months ? Have you looked at the EN Ultra plan? Have you picked the 100k Ultra? Make sure to allow 4-8 weeks of specificity leading into the race.
@Tim Cronk, that's part of my hesitation... for the past 2 years running has been sporadic. I've gone on 2 month streaks of 20 miles a week, then 10km for the next 3 months. Running for the past 3 months has been minimal.
With that said, like most of us, once I have seriously committed to a goal, I am a bit obsessive/neurotic about staying the course. So once I choose the race and pay, I will eat, breath, and sleep fitness/trail running.
I also have a friend here in Holland who has done multiple ultras, even multi day crazy 300KM nutty stuff. So along with the new training plans, all of you, and him, i am hoping I am in good shape.
My buddy is one of the guy featured in this short documentary.
Hello all-
So my 100KM Ultra is Mid June 2019. I want to do a 50KM race as a "hard training" session when I am in the middle of my peak/true Ultra specific training. With that said WHEN is a good time to plan it... how far from the 100KM date should it be?
I've gotten some advice from Coach P- but wanted to hear your thoughts as you guys have done 100KM events.
Thank you!
@Patrick Large I like the 4-6 week out from 100k window, this gives you a couple different weeks to find one that fits, enough time for recovery, and a couple more weeks training before the taper. The key is to be trained for that event and do no damage.
Thanks @tim cronk I would hope that 4 week out from a 100KM I could at least put down half that distance. The key on this one will be "do no damage"
Hey guys- I didnt want to start a new thread but want to run something by the ultra guys. I have been using final surge for the past couple of weeks and besides training plans being preloaded, I am not sure I love it.
What do you like about FS what dont you like.
What do you gain or lose in terms of functionality over TrainingPeaks?
Would love to hear your thoughts.
@Patrick Large FS has the ability to import your plan, move via drag drop and edit wko's , and @Coach Patrick can also view if you have a Coach thread going.
The remainder of 2018. I am signed up for The Ghost Train Ultra on 10/20-21. Its a flat , railroad bed, out and back of 15 miles per lap, 30hr cut off, no DNF's , you can complete as many laps as you choose. Distance for me is yet TBD. I took 3 weeks off running after Vt100, then a solid build SBR for the one and only triathlon I will do this year SOS. Eased into running this week and did back to back 15's last weekend. I could definitely still feel the fatigue of racing last weekend's SOS. Planning to build the next 3 weekends before tapering into the GT. Will focus my longrun/walk weekends on the track and one weekend on the course itself. Heather will be racing and plans to do 3 laps or 45 miles but I have a feeling she could do more:-)
@tim cronk Give me your 2 cents on R2R2R.
I will be back in the US next summer early August and trying to pull a group together to run it.
@Patrick Large Heather and I did it 4/10 this year on our 25th Anniversary. Never did a RR sorry. Highly recommend it. And have lots more thoughts after you pick time/date etc. In the mean time FB has a very good group with tons of current info. August? Probably not a good idea due to heat. April-May and Oct-Nov are supposed to be the best months or at least the most likely to get reasonable temps.
@Patrick Large I'm planning to do R2R2R probably in early November. I echo what @tim cronk said that August would be dangerous time to attempt it. The temps can hit 120F in the canyon!
@Gabe Peterson
Man I'd love to join you in November, but I'l be back in Netherlands. I am only in the US for 2 maybe 3 weeks in August. We stay in Flagstaff so I am sure there will be fun to be had there.
@Gabe Peterson you will be recover from our Moab 240 awesome stupid project ?
R2R2R is on my to-do list too!
@Francis Picard I'm thinking November this year. Feeling really good coming off Wasatch and want to roll that fitness into one more adventure for the year.
I know that there are other specific forums, but I want to get the most eyes so I am asking here.
I've been running trail in my Saucony Peregins and like them. My Ultra in Zugspitze I believe is pretty technical so I am looking into some alternatives. Would like something super grippy. And as far as I can tell at least in past years there are at least some decents in the snow.
What have you tried / raced in ? What have you liked/hared? Why?
Thanks in advance!
Patrick, I’ve been running in the Hoke evo mafate. They are a touch pricey, but offer good grip with good cushion at a relatively light weight. If you can handle a narrow toe box, I’ve heard really good things about speed goat 2, but they are too narrow for my feet, so I can’t confirm or deny.
From someone who is a perpetual state of searching for the perfect shoe. I have a pair of Peregrine's which I like (note the work like not love which is a recurring theme with all my shoes). Altra has been by go too . Both of these are grippy enough for me. I used to rock climb and had Five Ten approach shoes as well as many rock climbing shoes which are equipped with sticky or stealth rubber. That stuff really works and works on wet surfaces as well. Something like this interests me. But like anything fit is most important.
https://www.inov-8.com/us/trailroc-270-mens-trail-running-shoes-black
I dont know if you have Decathlon store where you live, but they do have a custom brand called Kalenji which I am really satisfied with.
Kalenji brands has everything for running (ultras and road) - its same quality as Salomon but without the price tag associated to
@Francis Picard We do have Decathlon in Holland. Maybe something for me to check out. Thanks-
@tim cronk I also really like my Peregrine's but wondering if there is some better for this race