Home Announcements 🎙

NBS Hydration ... great product from one of our Sponsors

If you're looking for a low sugar electrolyte drink try NBS. Formulated very much like OSMO and Skratch. In the graphic Strategy B works for those that get funky gut when racing.

We get 20% off with code EN20.


«1

Comments

  • @Sheila Leard I am ready to take the plunge into strategy B.  I have been trying strategy A mixes for the longest time and feel that what everything I experiment with does not work.  I like Skratch but have never tried Osmo.  But since NBS is one of our sponsors, perhaps I should try their stuff.  Just have to figure out the calorie gap if I switch and what I can fill that gap with ... real food, chews etc.   
  • @Jeff Horn  Self supported fueling is definitely a challenge for full distance.  NBS was created with Stacy Sims who created OSMO. NBS just added a new formula that I'm trying this weekend. It has a bit more Carbs in it but still low Osmolality. Blood osmolality is 270 so we want to consider that when hydrating with sports drinks.

    There are a few ways to do this.

     Depending on how many bottles are on your bike you could mix one with a concentrated NBS. If you have a refillable system then you get water at the aid station and squeeze a small from the concentrated NBS into the aero bottle.. Try to drink 24-30 ounces per hour. This will satisfy a lot of  sodium you will need. I'm a fan of preload because it guarantees that you will start with 'plump' plasma volume. 

    Water gets into the cell by piggy backing with glucose, ie., active transport. Trying to mix hydration with fuel usually ends with dehydration or calories not being absorbed. 
    Check out this video of Na and CHO getting in to the cell. It's super cool. It reinforces what the role is of glucose in a sport drink.


    Calories can be made up with chews and a low fiber bar. If the bar is eaten in the first 60 mile that gives you another 50 miles to digest and absorb it. 

    I'm refining a protocol to use NBS with chews. Work in progress. GE upsets my stomach. I can do maybe one bottle and that's it.
  • Thanks @Sheila Leard you always go above and beyond in these forums and I love it.  I'm gonna go back to my torpedo bottle up front and have the concentrated bottle (osmo or nbs) in the rear, adding some concentrated mix to the water from the stations.  I'm also gonna try the preload for my longer rides, see if I can eliminate the rot and dehydration from the mix.  Not sure which chews or bars I will pick.  May make my own from Lim's cookbook.  Chews will add 90-100 cal.  So I guess adding that to the low cal mix 120 cal / serving (180 for 36oz / hr) will get me in the 280 cal / hr ballpark for IM.  Thanks again! 
  • @Sheila Leard there are so many ways to skin the nutrition cat.  What is the thinking behind low calorie electrolyte drinks and then adding in the chews, etc to get the carbs/sugar.  I'm not sure I follow the concept.  Isn't it all just getting in your stomach the same?

    I know I'm a MOP Ironman, but definitely a BOP nutritionist.
  • @Sheila Leard I think you should be charging us for your services  :D Almost done Stacy Sim’s book. I’ve used Skratch for a while, though I may try NBS. Like you, thinking about going with just chews/chomps on race day. What are your thoughts on the Untapped Maple “gel” packs? And I’d be interested to hear what you’re planning to do with hydration on the run. I can’t tolerate GE either, so I usually go with just water and BASE salt on the run, along with the occasional GU. Hasn’t worked for me very well, but I don’t like using a hand held or wearing a heavy fuel belt.
  • edited May 24, 2018 2:00PM
    Not from a nutritionist POV, but for me, separating hydration and nutrition is important. Living in hot and humid Texas, I need more hydration than calories. I'm a Nuun guy through and through (disclaimer: I'm a Nuun ambassador).

    I used to use Infinit. I enjoyed it, it's flexibility, etc, but I don't need to ingest calories every time I drink. 

    For a bigger dood (6'1" and 210+ lbs), I don't use too many calories while working out, surprisingly. In fact, I did a fast and hard (.8 IF) non-stop century ride a few weeks ago on nothing but a single HS Waffle!

    @Alicia Chase, I LOVE untapped! Being a HS ambassador (love their waffles), their honey gels are pretty good too. I like the maple flavor so much I should be Canadian! haha. 
  • I have been using NBS for a year now. It's great. I find it easier to separate liquid from calories as well. Stomach likes it better. Stacy's book is my bible. I have been working with Kyla Channing. She's out of California and follows Stacy's theories and research. 

    Cliff at NBS is a really cool cat. I get hand wrote letters from him every order. He's going to be at Lake Placid this year.
  • edited May 28, 2018 2:14AM
    @Scott Alexander once I separated out fueling calories from hydration I've never had GI issues. I love your comment "I don't need to ingest calories every time I drink."  NUUN is handy and can totally work with adding a few chews.

    @Gary Lewis the reason for low SUGAR drinks is to enhance absorption of sodium into the cell. When there is too many calories or a high osmolality drink in the gut it kind of just sits waiting to get into the small intestine. So to get the calories diluted to be able to move into the cell water will be pulled from plasma to dilute  this load waiting to be absorbed. The little video above shows this process. Sodium (NA) + Glucose getting transported into the cell. High calorie drinks can cause dehydration. Also, like @Scott Alexander said, sometimes you just want something to drink without calories.

    @Jacklyn Moore NBS is a great sponsor. Clifton Duhon and Stacey worked together on this.
    You know NBS stands fro NoBullShit .. right?  :D

    @Jeff Horn I just got my order of the NEW NBS product that has a bit more carbs .... 100 calories / bottle.
     I need 200 -220/ hour. EASY! The other calories are from chews and a Picky Bar. Now all I have to do is refine the logistics for racing.

    Here is an explanation on why hydration is the most important key for results and eliminating gut issues.
    https://firstendurance.com/fueling-strategies-hot-days/

  • @Sheila Leard You typed "the reason for low electrolyte drinks is to enhance absorption of sodium into the cell."  is the low a typo?  I'm sorry, I'm still a little slow on all of this  I need to do some video watching, to hopefully understand.  When is you next class on IM Nutrition for dummies?
  • Oh thanks @Gary Lewis !! Yes,  meant to say LOW SUGAR. 
  • @Gary Lewis @Sheila Leard is obviously the expert here, but I believe it also has to do with the kind of sugars that are in gels and commercial hydration mixes. Most gels have fructose, which many older women don’t tolerate well. Fructose also draws water into the gut to process, resulting in a net dehydration. Most people don’t need as many carbs as is typically recommended, which is why so many people end up walking with gut rot by the end of an Ironman. Stacy Sims recommends separating nutrition from hydration, as others have already stated here. And she recommends focusing on total caloric intake, vs trying to do the math on grams of carbs/hour. 

    @Scott Alexander I love Honey Stinger waffles. They have a gluten-free version (another thing my gut can’t tolerate) that are very good. I’ve used their gels before, I’d have to carry them with me during a race, but might be worth it.
  • @Sheila Leard one thing that is concerning about going the separate B method path.  Everything I've read in the past recommends free H20 to help process any solids you take in.  The more bolus of solid (full bar for example), the more free H20 you need to chase it with.  So when thinking about separating hydration and nutrition, will I need to carry straight H20 with me in training and racing in order to offset the solid "load." Or will the hypo-osmolar hydration drink be ok to chase it with?  Thanks for all your advice.
    @Scott Alexander a century on a single waffle.  Are you a fat adapted kind of guy?  Or do you eat pretty regular stuff on daily basis?
  • @Sheila Leard one more thing...so you are using the new CarboHydration?  Looks like it has 100cal / serving.  Are you mixing that 2 servings per bottle (long course suggestion 2-3) and taking that per hour?  If so isn't that all you need in calories?  
  • @Jeff Horn  When the hydration source is low in sugar and mostly  electrolytes you can have nibbles of solids without needing plan water.

    For a six hour ride this is what I did ... and will do for IM but adding a little more because my bike split will be more than 6 hours. 

    Before my ride I had a half bottle of NBS Pre-load. All the minerals are in the citrate form so easy to absorb.
    I started with my aero bottle full with two scoops Carb-NBS 
    Goal:
    Na - 2600, about 400 mg/hr
    Calories 1450
    I started with one bottle on my bike with three scoops Carb-NBS, Na 300, 100 calories  
    Concentrated bottle of NBS Carbo-Hydration. 10 scoops = 2000 mg, 650 calories
    3 bags of chews, Stinger and ProBar, 220 mg Na, 500 calories
    Pickey bar and Cliff bar, 200 mg Na, 450 calories  
    TOTALS:
    Na 2720 mg
    Calories 1700

    I get taste fatigue so the bars are on board to help with that. Waffles work too.  I finish eating them with two hours of riding to go. I break the bars up and roll them into little balls. All this gets stuffed in my Bento box. If I can't fit the bag of chews in there I put it in my jersey pocket. I also have on board in my back pocket mint TicTacs and Mint TUMMs for when my mouth or gut feels funky.

    On course aid stations are every 10 miles. I tried to simulate that. I put water in my front aero bottle with a squeeze of concentrated NBS. I'm constantly sipping or nibbling. Think titration, a constant slow drip of of electrolytes and fuel.  By the fifth hour the concentrated bottle was almost gone. I like the idea swishing with cold water from the course. 

    If I lose my concentrated bottle I will go to GE squirting it into my aero bottle and taking Salt Stick. I can also get Cliff Shot blocks off the course. I haven't worked those numbers.  

    Filling my bottle on the go is not a big deal for me. I know how crazy aid stations are and it takes awareness.
     
    @Alicia Chase thanks for the post. Stacy Sims is a wealth of knowledge.
    @johnkatsoudas there might be some answers here for you.

    Cheers  B)
  • Looks great @Sheila Leard thanks so much for sharing your plan and insight.  Gonna use this as model for my upcoming changes.
  • Great thread @Sheila Leard ... you continue to raise everyone's awareness to the science behind optimizing nutrition ... thank you!

    NBS has a wide product range with fuels for a range of events, and I love how they have separate formulas for men and women.  Definitely will try these!  (But what's up with their plain-looking packaging?  Can't tell them apart from the black-and-white packages)

    I've been using Skratch for the last two years.  Skratch Labs just re-branded their product line, and it's totally confusing if you're used to the old names.  As an example, Rescue Hydration is now called Wellness Hydration.  I kind of liked the idea of being rescued

  • @paulcurtin Skratch Labs is awesome. Alan Lim posts some really informative blogs on his site. I saw that the labels changed. NBS could use some help. I think it's to go along with simple no BS  :D

    I think the biggest challenge when using OSMO, Skratch, NBS, EFS, is that the athlete has to get creative to be self supportive when racing. Gut issues that ruin races can be fixed with a little pre-planning. Understanding why a high osmolality concentrated sugar doesn't get absorbed is a game changer. 

    In Kona - you'll want to experiment with one of the several Hyper-Hydration mixes. 


  • The 57 page intro to Feed Zone Portables was pretty good...finally read it today.  Discusses how you don't need to add "free H20" when eating the real food in his book due to the water content of the food.  Store bought gels/bars etc have a very high carb to water ratio comparatively so need the additional water.  
    In reference to gastric emptying, is there a magic number (red flag) that people look for in their solids (bars or chews) to avoid in terms of fat and protein?  I know these slow things down a bit.  For example, the Skratch bars have 200 cal with 8g fat and 4g protein.  Is this acceptable or recipe for disaster?  I figure if its from Skratch, probably within range.  
  • @Jeff Horn 8 gm fat and 4 gm protein is the same for the Picky Bars.  If it is spread out over a few hours the contents or the 'chyme' of that food will be absorbed. Nibble and Sip. Fiber is what you really want to avoid! That will slow everything down. The bars I experiment with have 3 gm fiber. That's the highest I'll go. To be honest when I first bought The Feed Zone I was skeptical of chewing while I ride. Now I find that soft bars with a bit of protein and fat works when timed before the run. It's very individual.
  • @Gary Lewis @Sheila Leard is obviously the expert here, but I believe it also has to do with the kind of sugars that are in gels and commercial hydration mixes. Most gels have fructose, which many older women don’t tolerate well. Fructose also draws water into the gut to process, resulting in a net dehydration. Most people don’t need as many carbs as is typically recommended, which is why so many people end up walking with gut rot by the end of an Ironman. Stacy Sims recommends separating nutrition from hydration, as others have already stated here. And she recommends focusing on total caloric intake, vs trying to do the math on grams of carbs/hour. 

    @Scott Alexander I love Honey Stinger waffles. They have a gluten-free version (another thing my gut can’t tolerate) that are very good. I’ve used their gels before, I’d have to carry them with me during a race, but might be worth it.
    @Alicia Chase. Their Chocolate/Vanilla GF waffle is the greatest! They had, for a very limited time, a maple waffle too, that was pretty dang good. I break each waffle in two and put them in the half-size ziplocs, which is a heck of a lot easier to access than their single packaging. I used these on my 50k and on my IMs and long rides now.
  • Jeff Horn said:
    @Sheila Leard one thing that is concerning about going the separate B method path.  Everything I've read in the past recommends free H20 to help process any solids you take in.  The more bolus of solid (full bar for example), the more free H20 you need to chase it with.  So when thinking about separating hydration and nutrition, will I need to carry straight H20 with me in training and racing in order to offset the solid "load." Or will the hypo-osmolar hydration drink be ok to chase it with?  Thanks for all your advice.
    @Scott Alexander a century on a single waffle.  Are you a fat adapted kind of guy?  Or do you eat pretty regular stuff on daily basis?
    @Jeff Horn, not that I know of. I eat a TON, way too much! The last few years, I've been able to get away with very little hydration and nutrition, even here in the TX heat and humidity. 
    That century ride, from Austin to Shiner (home of the beer), I also only went through one bottle in the first 65 miles, with a .85IF hanging with the lead group. At the 65 mile rest stop, I ate that one waffle, and almost puked. Just never ate again. Didn't even get the pre-bonk or bonk feelings over the next 35 miles riding into the brewery. I didn't even finish the other two bottles of Nuun I had with me. No idea how I didn't need more. 
    My breakfast, pre-century, was two bolthouse farms smoothies, for about 600 cals. Same pre-long-workout breakfast I almost always have, so I don't think I was sitting on a ton of calories before I started.
  • @Scott Alexander. I love Stinger chews and waffles. Can I order from you since you’re an affiliate? 
  • @Scott Alexander. I love Stinger chews and waffles. Can I order from you since you’re an affiliate? 
    I wish. They don't allow us to buy for others, we can only use our discount ourselves!
  • @Scott Alexander I haven’t tried the Choc/Van. I just ordered a sampler pack from Amazon, and the Choc/Van is included, yea!
  • @Alicia Chase, the Salted Caramel and the choc/van are my two favorite flavors.
    The chocolate mint was a little too dark for me, especially in the heat. That's the one that did it in for me on my century. Just didn't sit well.
  • @Scott Alexander Good to know. I have time to test out all of the flavors, but I could see where dk choc/mint could be too overpowering for a race. I also break the waffles up into smaller pieces (I do quarters :) ) and put them in a snack-size baggie. Trying to open up that wrapper and eat on the fly just doesn't work. @Sheila Leard I plan to use your idea of rolling the Picky Bars chunks into balls for my bento bag.
  • SOS! 
    I have used NBS for over a year now. Love the stuff no gut issues at all. For some crazy reason this spring almost summer. Since getting outside. I am swelling like a puffer fish. No seriously. Bike and run. Today while running my hands swelled so bad they turned white.
    Tonights run: 85 degrees mild wind
    Plan: z4 800m intervals
    Swelling started after the first mile. Took a dose of BAse salt when the swelling started.  Finished the intervals but had to walk home d/t elevated sustained HR. 

    Backstory: Swelling has been a problem for a LONG time. This is the worst it's ever been. It resolves quickly once I stop training. Usually within an hour.

    Nutrition:
    Preload: 1 tbsp with 8oz of water 30 minutes prior (NA 1600mg) with a 100 calorie bag of Kirkland gummies.
    Camelbak with 24 oz of Hawaiian NBS, 3 scoops (NA 540mg). 
    Basesalt x1- NA 290mg

    Any suggestions? This is driving me crazy. I know it's affecting my performance. I just ordered the NBS Strawberry lemonade carb stuff. We'll see how that goes for pre load. 

    Any ideas would be GREATLY appreciated.
  • @Jacklyn Moore Have you tried using your nutrition and hydration products at times you're not exercising? You'll want to rule out an allergy to an ingredient in the products. Even if you've used before without problems, sometimes companies change formulas. More likely, you are having a histamine response to exercise. Do you have seasonal allergies and do you take an antihistamine? Could be the seasonal allergy triggers are worse this year. A morning dose of Claritin or a similar OTC product may help. I've had this same issue before. I now take Claritin daily and I have not had the itching and swelling with exercise since.
  • I hate to say this because most athletes can't get too much sodium but some do get swelling from too much.  There was a guy named Coach Rich who needed to drink a lot of plain water during IM because the GE made him swell.  Just another thought.
  • The funny thing is that I don't have a problem with it in the pain cave. It's only when I head out on the open road. 
    @Robert Sabo- I've wondered that too. It's so hard to figure out. I have tried to go with just water and base salt. That hasn't worked too well either. I've tried plain water and that was a no go bonked hard on that one. 

Sign In or Register to comment.