New "Fun" Tri Bike build project
So I'm due up for a new tri bike. My 2012 Cervelo P5 with 10-speed Di2 has been a REALLY great bike, but I'm ready for something new. The components have literally not been supported by Shimano in at least 5 of those 6+ years. And I ride my Tri bike pretty much year round (even in the Colorado mountains at @Al Truscott Camp and on my rollers for Zwift).
I've been probing the Haus and many of my friends (thanks @scott dinhofer ) with many different questions about different features of the various new Superbikes and I think I have finally made a decision. (There's still time to change my mind if you want to push me in a different direction...)
Here's what I wanted out of my new bike:
1) Perfect Fit (this actually eliminated my ultimate lust bike)
2) Very stiff bottom bracket and rear triangle (My P5 rear triangle seemed "soft" the last couple of yrs from a twisting perspective)
3) Super Aero (my P5 is the gold standard for this)
4) Not be super heavy (my P5 is a tank)
5) Look super cool
I eliminated the new Shiv because it's just too ugly (and if that box lid was flapping around on their big debut in Kona, I see problems with it in the future and also just seemed like a stupid place to keep 3 gallons of fluids).
I eliminated the Cervelo P5x because it's not stiff enough and weighs like a million pounds.
I eliminated the Cube Aerium because it was just too small of a company and didn't necessarily trust it.
I eliminated the Premier Tactical because it seems boring. And also you have to buy it as a full bike and I want to do a very specific build which would end up costing as much as any of the other Superbikes in the end.
Following are the bikes I was very seriously considering buying:
I eliminated the Pinarello Bollide TR+ because my fitter didn't think it would work (but I was drooling all over it). This is the bike that I really wanted to buy, but unfortunately it didn't work for the single most important of my criteria...
I eliminated the Canyon Speedmax CF SLX 9.0 SL (my 2nd favorite bike from a sex appeal perspective) basically because my fitter talked me out of it because he had several previous clients that had small small issues (one guy cracked his fork) and it literally took over 2 months to get a replacement fork shipped from Europe. I don't want the headache (even if low probability) of poor customer service when there are plenty of other great bikes out there.
I really liked the Quintana Roo PR6. I liked the wide chain stays and assumed it would have a stiff rear triangle, especially with the through axle. I wasn't convinced I wanted disc breaks , but would take them if need be, but you can also order this bike in the Rim brake version. Seems like a great bike, but I didn't love the exposed front brakes and would want to upgrade several things. And as much as I liked about the bike, it just never got me "excited", so I eliminated it (but it ultimately came in 3rd place).
My next to last bike to be eliminated was a NEW Cervelo P5. The rumor mill is strong that they will have a new release with Disc brakes and using the P5x Cockpit which is much more adjustable. I didn't love the idea of buying a new version of my exact same bike just weeks or months before a new one came out so if the P5 won, I'd wait until the disc brake version (but that would also come with the $$ of a couple new wheelsets and probably a disc brake road bike as well). But, in 2012 when I ordered my P5 (in January), I had to wait until August before it was actually delivered... Do I trust that Cervelo has gotten their shit together and would fulfill a yet to be officially announced new bike with enough time for me to train on it before Kona... Not sure. I knew it would fit. It may or may no be adjustable enough in the front end for the little fit tweaks I want to make (angling my hands up). But with the disc brakes and new cockpit it would probably be even heavier than my version of it. And ultimately it was probably a tiny bit better for me (more aero and known product) than the bike I think I have decided on... But at several thousand dollars more (before wheelsets), I don't think it's enough better...
Drumroll please... I'm pretty sure I'm going with a @Coach Patrick @Jeremy Behler and @Mariah Bridges endorsed and approved Ventum One!
It ticked 4 of my 5 boxes... The only problem is that it's a tank. Likely even heavier than my P5 in it's standard "Top End" build... So here's where it gets fun. I've decided to solve that problem with $$$. I'm literally going to spend ALL of the EN discount on the bike on upgrading it to be the world's lightest Ventum!
Before you tie me to a pole and give me 100 lashings... I already know that weight is not the most important variable on a triathlon bike. But I want a 1x tri bike because I want a 1x tri bike (and losing the FD will save weight and make it more aero). My guess is the Ventum is slightly less aero than my current (or the soon to be new version of) Cervelo P5 and you will not convince me otherwise. I think the Ventum is likely stiffer than the P5 (at least stiffer than mine). And I have been told that the Ventum is heavier than the P5 (which is likely more of a negative for tiny guys like @tim cronk than it should be for big ole me). Mostly I just want a fun project. I have been riding my P5 for ~6+ years and as of now it has cost me less than $0.50 per mile. That's actually cheaper than many of the running shoes I buy. So I am not going to skimp on this bike because frankly I just want a really freaking cool bike. (Oh, and Jess told me to buy whatever bike I want, so I'm off to the races with ideas).
So I still need to figure out whether I'm a 54cm or a 56cm, but will likely be buying a Ventom One Frameset first. The good folks at Ventum have already answered like 100 questions for me and they are working with their engineers and my fitter.
I will trick it out with all Ceramic bearings (BB, etc.). I still need to figure out the exact details, but plan on doing 1x eTap (hoping @robin sarner 's experience will save me some work here). Will probably go with the Dash seat post and saddle (but will reserve the right to throw my trusty Cobb V-Flow Max back on).
I'm looking for a highly adjustable, but stiff and light cockpit. I'd love any suggestions here. I'm looking at the 51 Speedshop system, the ENVE SES , the Profile Design Aerium Ultimate, and the TriRig Alpha One. I'd love opinions or other recommendations in this area...
I plan to spend $$$ on a super light and stiff and aero 1x crankset... Any advice on this would be very much appreciated. I loved the idea of the 3T Torno carbon crankset, but sadly can only take up to a 44T wolftooth Chainring, so it might be out... It might work if I can find a custom Chainring for it... Any other ideas here?
I don't even know much about the TRP brakes that come standard on the Ventum One frameset or Di2 build, but will do some research to see if I can lose some weight here by replacing them as well. Any thoughts here?
What say you EN nerds? Do you want to change my mind on my frame choice? Or do you want to help me lean out my new build?
Comments
@John Withrow Have you looked at the new Scott Plasma frame?
@John Withrow since you want to go crazy and it's not my wallet taking the hit here are some ideas (borrowed from a GCN episode) to make that Ventum light, fast, and very very expensive:
Wheelset: Lightwheight Autoban disc wheelset (Disc on the back - 81mm front) $7,995
Pedals: Speedplay Nanogram Zero $630
Bottom bracket: CeramicSpeed $395
Pulley wheels: CeramicSpeed OPSW System Victory Edition $1,950
Cranks & Powermeter: SRM THM Clavicula M3 Power Meter System with computer unit $4,652
Cockpit: 3D Custom printed titanium, nothing like tailor made components $4,000
Saddle: Gelu K3 $571
Chain: Muc-Off Nano Chain $200
Brakes: Fibula (not sure they fit the rear) $1,600
Or you can simply go with the Ventum One Signature Edition which include some of this components already for only $32,500 - But it comes with a box and matching helmet.
Whatever you decide keep us posted. Looking forward to see what you come up with
@Jorge Duque @John Withrow has a couple sons that want to go to college some day. It is nice to know what the upper extreme is though.
I love this project!
Todd at ttbikefit recommended for me if I were to go Ventum, the ZIpp Vuka - nice write up on the fitability of it on Slowtwitch a few years ago.
and another review - https://aerogeeks.com/2014/12/11/zipp-vuka-stealth-review/
Lightweight makes a disc. I saw one on facebook in a sales group a few months ago, but appears to be gone. I am always looking for ways to tweak my P5, but that wheel was a tubular, I have no idea if it comes in a clincher.
Looking forward to seeing this beast at Al Camp next year and of course now I have to evaluate my P5 to see if I should be "keeping up with Withrow"
@John Withrow
http://rotorbike.com/1x13-the-only-one/
Thanks @Mark Stahlkopf . I actually reached out to them a few days ago and unfortunately they don't have TT shifters, nor is it in there current plans.
@Jorge Duque That would be fun... However, I'm not actually looking to build a ~$30k exotic bike. Just looking to lighten the load with strategic upgrades. And going with rim brakes will allow me to use my existing stable of wheels (FC303, FC808, and Zipp Disc) and DEFINITELY not buying any tubular setup, not even Lightweight. I have come around to thinking that scrapping my (heavy) P1's and going with a crank based PM and lighter pedals is probably the way to go to lighten the load. However the shortest the SRM THM Clavicular comes in is a 170 and not clear it can easily be setup as 1x. The Gelu K3 doesn't look ideal for longcourse stuff, but I am considering a Dash Saddle to save weight there... And will also lighten up through the brakes, but also want something strong and reliable, so will have to find a compromise. leaning towards the Cane Creek eeBrakes. And the rear is a direct mount on the Ventum. The one decision I have not made yet (and a very important one) is the cockpit. I want it to be aero, and thread the needle between light and adjustable, but it MUST be stiff and reliable. by my math I've trimmed just over ~2 lbs of of the highest end "off the shelf" Di2 build of the bike, at roughly the same total cost. If I buy directly from Ventum, I'll need to just by the Frameset, but then will have a bunch of parts in my bin afterwards (brakes, cockpit, etc). If I build it on a used eBay frame, it's highly likely that I come in WELL under the cost of just buying a fully built bike new, but be ~2.5-3 lbs lighter than the stock bike.
@scott dinhofer That Vuka Stealth Aero system is the lightest of the 5 cockpits I'm still contemplating. It's only 40cm wide at the horns vs some of the others that are 42cm. Given the size of my shoulders, I'd prefer 42cm, but that is not a deal breaker. Mostly need to figure out if it will work with my fit coordinates.
@robin sarner Thanks for your email on your 1x build. very helpful.
I'm certainly getting much closer, and will have a build list for you all soon but please do not hesitate if you have opinions/thoughts/ideas..
@John Withrow
Have you seen this video review from Bike Radar? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=asDhQA_SDyY
I believe it is 1st Generation Ventum 1 but the issues the reviewer brings up in the video sound like they could be an issue for a bigger guy (frame flex and rubbing against the wheels). Also interesting the real world test with what I would call a "non super bike". Perhaps Ventum has fixed this in subsequent generations.
I look forward to following your build.
@Jeff Phillips I have seen that and read it on the 220Triathlon review. However, I've talked to many a Ventum owner and none of them have experienced this. This potential "twisting" or the rear triangle section is one of the big reasons I am upgrading my P5. I'm going to take the stiffness of the Ventum as a positive for that frame as opposed to a negative. So if I build it all up and it doesn't work, then I guess I'll be looking for a different frame to swap all of my components over to...
The "Baseline" I'm using for the weight comparison for my build is buying the highest end Ventum One with the Full Dura-Ace Di2 package. I assumed I'd keep my trusty Cobb V-Flow Max and be using my Powertap P1 pedals on this "baseline" setup. By switching to a Quarq 1x PM and getting lighter pedals, it actually saves combined weight over a super light crank and my P1s. When it's all said and done, I think I'll end up with what looks like a simple SRAM 1x build with mostly all matching stuff (neither brake is even visible on this bike).
None of this has been purchased yet, so there's still time for you to change my mind, but here's what I'm currently thinking for my build and how much weight it will save over baseline:
Thoughts?
Before creating this thread about my new build I created this other thread: https://endurancenation.vanillacommunities.com/discussion/25251/anyone-have-an-inside-source-at-sram-or-shimano#latest
But to save you the time, this was the main theme of it:
"Long story short, I'd hate to build up a brand new $$$ 11-speed Tri bike with the intention of it lasting the next ~5-6 yrs and a week later learn that the whole world is moving on to 12 speed. I'd strongly prefer to just skip an entire (11-spd) generation altogether and be an early adopter of 12 speed. (In my ideal world, I'd find out when 1x12 Electronic shifting will come to the road/tri world, but let's not get ahead of ourselves.)"
So my new Ventum One frame arrives tomorrow! I ordered my eTap 11-speed stuff last week and it should arrive at my house within the next few days and I'll start building it up this weekend!
And I saw this article this morning about the NEW 12 Speed eTap with a clutch Deraileur that'll be just perfect for 1x builds ! FML!
@John Withrow It seems that this would give you a better gear range. I saw it this morning on GCN and they mention it has a 52-37 front and a 10-28 on the back. The key seems to be the rear derailleur which is still a mystery and they have it covered in tape (probably patent issues). I also think the chain is going to be unique for this system.
I have a couple questions about this:
@Jorge Duque Unfortunately, I clearly don't know anybody deep enough in SRAM (yet?). So still working on your #2. Regarding your #1, not sure. My frame arrives tomorrow and the rest of my stuff shows up in the next few days. For reasons I will reveal later (regarding the potential cockpit). I'm going to build my bike up with the 1x11 stuff I already bought. My guess is the SRAM 12 speed stuff won't be until the spring anyways and I'm not waiting that long.
My guess is that when it's officially launched, I'll sell my 11-speed stuff on eBay and upgrade to 12-speed. If it's backwards compatible with the Blips and Blip Box, then it "might" be as simple as buying the RD, Cassette, and new Chain ring (if I'd even need a new Chain ring). I LOVE LOVE LOVE the idea of having a 10T cog. That could give me more Top End and keep the same range with 50T chain ring and a slightly smaller cassette.
I'm starting with a 52T Chainring and a 11-40 Cassette (11 spd). Top end of 4.72 and low end of 1.30. a 50T Chainring and a 10-38 Cassette (12 spd) would give me a bigger Top end of 5.00 and a very similar low end of 1.39 and a 1.25 if I kept a 10-40.
I have the "Older" Zipp FC 808's and I'm not entirely sure that even an 11-speed (XTR 11-40) cassette will go on the Freehub without minor issues. Hopefully, I'll also need to buy a new set of wheels because those new Princteon Carbon wheels (EN's new wheel sponsor) really look SWEET!
@John Withrow - I have the Zipp 808 FC and a super 9 disc.
I actually had a bad hub on the Zipp and replaced it when I did my etap upgrade moving from 10spd to 11spd.
I got a lasco modified 11 speed cog that i slapped on the super 9 disc (you can't change the hub in those) which was set up for 10 spd and it works perfectly. when i change wheels i have zero adjustment issues on my etap. I had thought there would be some. btw, I found Lasco through the blog on the dark speedworks website.
@John Withrow
Nothing to add but love the project. 1 X is sexy AF
@John Withrow - has it arrived? Did you ride this weekend? Super psyched to see pictures of this project coming together.
My notes:
I'm also curious about your brake choices, and if you went weight weenie vs aero weenie. Those ee are pure sex.
On your pedal choice ... did you look at the speedplay aeros? these reportedly tested at 6 watts of savings over regular speedplays, which in turn tested faster than non-speedplays. And if you insisted on spending more money/going on the weight savings route, you could get a pair of J&L ti spindles on ebay.
I'm also interested in hearing about your 52 - 11/40 experiences. Does that cassette give you the contiguous 14 through 18 gears, or is it one of those that skips the 15, 16 or 17? Although I'm guessing you'll be doing a much greater variety of riding over the year, I got the sense that you were building this with Kona as your front-of-mind terrain (which I'm more and more of the belief that it is a course that a rider could get away with 4, maybe 5 gears in total).
Last part: although you have indicated you have a good fitter nearby, you're at the stage where time in the tunnel or on the ERO track, using your entire sets of runs to fine-tune or ascertain bits and bites of your fit, would be beneficial. Although the travel time is the real killer, I think you and your build are at the stage where you might benefit from having an experienced aerodynamacist (I cringe when I see that word) putting up a few options to get you in a aero position that will let you build and achieve what you/Jess called "positional fitness" in your other thread, and carry that to your next race (and more importantly, to the last 90' or so of your next race, where most peoples' aerodynamics and gear savings go out the window because they're sitting bold upright).
The Build is underway. My local mechanic is stopping over tomorrow night to help with a few things:
1) Install the Ceramic Speed Bottom Bracket (then throw Quarq on)
2) Check/adjust RD and then install chain.
3) Help with running the rear brake cable.
Cockpit is still "Top Secret" (for now), but will be installed by my fitter in a couple of weeks.
@Dave Tallo the brakes are all hidden, so aero doesn't matter. Because of the fork design on the Ventum, I was basically forced to use the TRP TTV front brake (which weighs 134g). For the Rear, I went with the eeBrake G4 direct mount (84g), but I ordered the wrong one, so I need to send it back and get the Chainstay mounted one, hopefully have that by next week.
For the pedals, I went with the Look Keo Blade Carbon Ti. They weigh 188g, so are ~60g heavier than the Speedplay Nano. I've never used Speedplay and have been using Look for a while with my Powertap P1 pedals for a while now. I looked at the Super-light spindle pedals, but decided for the practicality of a "real" pedal. There's certainly a chance I'll need to be running in my tri sheoes (and I will often walk in them, i.e. into a convenience store to refuel or after a workout, etc.), so I wanted a more traditional cleat, even at the expense of a few grams.
The giant pie-plate Cassette looks kind of silly on my 808's, but I'll get used to it.
Here's the 11-40: 11-13-15-17-19-21-24-27-31-35-40 (I expect to be fine with these)
Yes I will be riding a lot of different terrain throughout the year. And yes, I may tweak that setup specifically for Kona, but...
In all honesty, I've already decided to sell the 11-spd components and upgrade when the new SRAM 12-speed stuff comes out in the spring. Those have a 10-tooth cog, so I might go down to a 50T Chainring then and run something more like a 10-37 or 10-38. But I should have a bit of time in the saddle before I make those decisions...
I LOVE your idea of going to the ERO track... Going to build it up for now with my guy, but will see if I can squeeze a time in to my calendar before my big volume build in the summer. Not just the exact position, but also helmet selection, etc. Since I'm this deep already, may as well finish it right.
At the end of the day, my build didn't turn out all that exotic... It'll pretty much look like a standard 1x eTap build with a few tweaks. After all the reasearch, was hard to not just go with all SRAM stuff in the drivetrain (other than the cassette).
One other fun thing I'm doing with it is that I was unhappy with what the spot looked like when I removed the Front Derailleur hanger. Just seemed "sloppy".
And I happen to have a buddy with a 3D printer, so he came over last night with his laptop and we designed a small plastic piece to fill that spot. I've now ordered some Red filament, so hopefully will get that fine tuned within the next month or so...
Looking good. I think that's plenty exotic, and looks like a gratifying project. Despite having laid eyes on them a bunch of times, seeing a Ventum in the wild is always a head-turner.
That 40 cassette almost gets you to a disk rear wheel! Can you pull signals from TV stations in the neighboring states? Or NORAD transmissions?
Enjoy the finishing touches and maiden voyage.
DONE!!!! I finally finished her up last night and took some pictures!
Here are my build specs:
Frame: Ventum One
Cockpit: Zipp Vuka Aero, Carbon Vuka Evo 70 Extensions, Zipp SL Sprint (120mm, -12 degree)
Stem Cap: custom made - Endurance Nation (Patience/Discipline)
Garmin Mount: custom made from old stock carbon extension
TT Shifters: SRAM 11-spd eTap, clicks at extensions, blips on bullhorns, (blipbox hidden in Vuka Aero nose cap)
Crankset/Powermeter: 162.5mm SRAM DZero with 52t SRAM Force One X-Sync Narrow-Wide Chainring
Rear Deraileur: SRAM eTap WiFli Medium Cage (mounted on Wolftooth Roadlink)
Front Deraileur: N/A (custom made 3-D printed Deraileur Hanger replacement cover)
Chain: SRAM PC-1170
Bottom Bracket: bbInfinite (BB30 - 68mm, Directfit for 30mm spindle cranks, Ceramitech bearings)
Cassette: Shimano CS-M91100-11 (XTR, 11-40)
Brake Levers: SRAM TT900 Carbon Aero
Front Brake: TRP TTV
Rear Brake: Cane Creek eeBrakes G4 Direct Mount
Brake Cables: Jagwire Road Elite Sealed
Pedals: Look Keo Blade Carbon Ti
Wheels: Zipp FC808
Saddle: Cobb V-Flow Max
@John Withrow great pics. This came together beautifully. All the pieces came together nicely. I'll be curious to read about your experiences with the shorter crank length relative to what you were riding before.
Critical piece of data left out -- total weight?
I will try to weigh it tonight. Will be a small penalty from the 808's and big cassette, but that's how I'll be racing it, so I think that is how it should be weighed. (will probably also weigh my P5 tonight as well so I'll have a true comparison to what I was on before).
Congrats @John Withrow . That bike looks fantastic. Really interested to hear your take on the bb infinite bottom bracket as I am thinking on replacing the one on my P3
So much bike porn my head is about to explode!
@Jeff Phillips She came in at 21.8 lbs as I will be racing it in October, with the FC808's and big cassette (11-40).
So, not exactly a featherweight, but a little over a half pound lighter than my P5 that weighed in at ~22.5lbs (with the FC808's but my normal 11-28 cassette).
I rode it for the first time yesterday on my rollers in the land of Zwift and it felt REALLY REALLY comfortable in the aero position. The shorter cranks have me sitting a bit higher over the bike. I also worked very closely with my fitter to try to get more activation of my glutes and less in my quads. On this Ventum One One (as I'm calling it), I was able to get my effective seat angle to 82.5 degrees (which is farther forward than my P5. And he also raised my arm pads just a bit and with angle (up) of the new extensions on these Zipp bars it put my hands higher to a much more physiologically neutral position for my hands.
It was negative 6 in MN today, so it'll still likely be a couple of months until I see what it's like to ride her outside...
@Jorge Duque I specifically went with the BBInfinite because I wanted a single piece BB. The Ceramic Speed and Kogel versions for the BB30 are 2 separate cups that press fit into the frame. After ~6 yrs I had a bunch of creaking in my P5 that I think might have been from the pressfit Bottom Bracket and I wanted to avoid that if at all possible.
Awesome!
Great looking machine. Will the motor be ready in October?
@Mark Stahlkopf The motor sure as hell isn't ready "now"... But I don't want to embarrass myself in 8 months so I better start tuning it up.
negative 6, isn't that shorts weather in MN? 😆
what did you use for the chainstay protector? if someone were to build this using a diff bar setup, where would you "hide" the blip box? could it be done behind the stem and create a 3d printed compartment between the hydration unit & stem to hide it?
@scott dinhofer I have a Men's Group that runs outside every Friday morning at 5AM regardless of weather. If it's north of 0 degrees F, one guy always shows up in shorts. My cutoff for shorts is 32 degrees F (I guess that makes me a pansy).
Regarding the blip box, I'd guess that if you cut off the Garmin connector (like I did on mine) that it "might" hide behind the beard that covers the front brake. I'm pretty sure that's where @Coach Patrick and @Jeremy Behler hide their Di2 box, but that is decidedly smaller than the 11-spd blip box. Before I finished my fit and figured out how to get it inside my bars, I temporarily just had it attached to the underside of my stem with the Garmin connector. I was absolutely considering 3-D printing something that would cover it behind the steerer tube that I thought you could attach to the screw that holds the integrated water bottle on. I stopped exploring that option when I discovered the nosecone on my Zipp bars.
Regarding the chainstay protector, I just bought this and cut it to size. Not quite sure it will be durable enough, but it was a very cheep experiment and I also think it looks cool!
Very sexy @John Withrow ! Thanks for sharing! I will look forward to drooling over it in Snowmass! Hopefully I can keep up!
@John Withrow just placed today the order for the bb infinite. My bike is fairly new (2018 Cervelo P3) and the original BB is done within less than 5,000 miles.
Had a long conversation with one of the owners and he convinced me of the benefits of his product. Will let you know how it works