Thanks @matt limbert. My FTP came in very close to what i was estimating.
See, i had been using 281w that came from Zwift during a Sprint Bump Race few months ago but i always felt that it was a bit over stated. Also the numbers you took came from my pedals and are lower than what got recorded on the Kickr (that i used previously as powermeter) by around 13w for the 6 minutes and 10 minutes intervals. So that makes total sense. Good thing is a lower FTP will allow me to accrue more TSS for the same workout now and boost my CTL in TrainingPeaks :-)
As for my Vlama of .46 it does not seem very low.. so i assume much work ahead to lower it.
@Coach Patrick, quick update again. 168.5 pounds today and 8.9% body fat. Very happy with what happened over the past 6 weeks, thank you again for your nutritional tips. Nearly -15 pounds..and again by just eating normal, lean meats / fish, lots of veggies (grilled or pureed) and good carbs (steel oats for breakfast, black / brown rice). Outside of 2 pieces of chocolate with my lunch and dinner expresso no more sugars, nothing processed food and no milk (i drink almond milk) and only one greek yogurt a day for breakfast. I feel like i finally cracked the code of what's working for me.
One thing i'm focusing on is to ensure that this weight loss is not impacting my training nor my normal life. So far it has not, this is one reason why i keep racing Crit city on Zwift to ensure i can still compete in my B group (so far so good). Running is going well also although and i'm always listenning to what my body is telling me, from a pain somewhere to feeling tired / cranky etc.. as a sign that i should hold off for a while... but again so far so good. No pain, no injury; i have not been super good with strength training but i do try to spend time doing mobility exercises (i used to have super tight hips that were creating back pains but not anymore).
Two questions for you:
1/ Outside of these control mechanism i described above, what else should i be watching to ensure that i'm not losing too much weight (if this is possible...). Looking at my body i certainly have at least 5+ pounds of fat that can go away but the last thing i want is to get tired and injured or to lose fitness.
2/ Also In your experience if i continue eating / training the same and my weight continue dropping regularly (maybe 1 pound a week), will it stabilize at some point ? (i think yes but i'm no specialist).
Also wanted to tell you that BestBike is pretty awesome and i'm looking forward to the next 3 weeks. Same for the podcasts, i really liked the last one and it resonated with me because i think this pandemic is paradoxally creating the conditions for future success by not racing this year and therefore allowing us to invest in ourselves, whatever that is for each person. For me the combination of improving body comp, feeling close to a breakthrough on the bike and the continuous improvement on the run have been quite positive. Another year to go before i see the line at mile 18 at IM Switz and IM Temblant, where the real fun begins. Can't wait!
Thanks for everything you do for us, much much appreciated.
@Vincent Sivirine - I hear you...it's a lot to process. I suggest that we get through the camp recommendations first, and then we can figure out how it all integrates. 👍
My weight has been stable at 168 -169 pounds these past two weeks. My appetite has decreased and i don't see any negative impact on training. I think 165 pounds is a reasonable target as i get closer to my marathon. % fat is hovering between 8 and 9%
I've shifted all power measurements on Zwift to my Assioma pedals, for workouts and races. I lost 15w of power between Kickr and pedals but still racing ok so i guess fitness has offset these 15w.. good.
Questions
looking at the schedule for the two blocks following BestBikeCamp i have the following questions:
Run 1 - where do i fit my long run? on Friday and do a 5m LRP after CnC on Sunday? or don't do CnC and keep 5m at LRP on Friday and do longer runs at TRP on Sunday?
Run 2 - i currently have 4 runs a week. Do i keep the MP and TRP ones and replace the 2 times 5 miles at LRP (or at least 1) as short brick sessions after the hard bike rides?
Run 3 - i still have 9 weeks of marathon training, which means that from mid November to end December i will be 80% on the bike and only doing run durability or easy recovery runs. Am i correct?
Run 4 - in my second block how do i fit the last 2 weeks of my marathon training? (on Monday 9/7 i will be 8 weeks away from my race so i have a 4 week difference between last weeks of this run plan and my 12 week bike blocks)
Bike 1 - can i use a short FatMax wko with low cadence as as immediate recovery session after a Crit City race (ie warm up 15', race 30', FatMax low cadence 30' or 45')?
Bike 2 - there is a comment in my final report that i have a VLaMax session in my second block but i don't see it. You also said that i should not do any VLaMax work until Outseason i think so that's okay
Bike 3 - i thought Cruise and Crush would increase my VLaMax. I know you said have longer sprints (at least 30') but still? do the benefits of increasing Vo2 outweigh the risk of also increasing VLaMax?
Bike 4 - if i want to add easier recovery wkos before dinner, do i always go with short FatMax with low cadence (up to an hour) or what would you suggest? (assuming all hard workouts take place in mornings)
Long run on Sundays, drop CnC as the marathon work demands that space.
Yes to LRP after the bike rides as EASY bricks. Think run durability...it's all good work and those bike workouts are WORK. 💀
Yes...lots of bike time!!!
There's not a lot of work in the last two weeks of marathon training, esp if you are keeping the bike up (in days 14 to 8). Just easy running will be sufficient.
Le Bike...
yes you can totally do that as recovery work...just give yourself between 5 to 10 minutes of easy spinning to recover before doing the low cadence.
Yes, VLaMax laters on please!
At this stage, yes you can strive for VO2 gains over VLaMax since racing is so far away.
Easiest is a 30 min run at TRP pace. Done. You could do an easy spin....let's not get too carried away with the low cadence stuff. Maybe we make more room for that later on when we are post marathon?
I agree things worked out with the pedals...letting go of those watts is a tough ego move, but it always seems to work out!
I moved my marathon by a week (Savannah was cancelled) and signed up for a local one that has a legit change to be happening and which is relatively flat. So i adjusted the plan accordingly between last week and this week so that the last 6 weeks are left unchanged.
Weight is hovering 165-166 pounds and i noticed this morning while running a 11 miles a MP on the treadmill that it is actually easier than the bike workouts. My HR stayed under 140 despite running closer to HMP than MP and finishing strong. Maybe it's the fact i'm lighter but i also think the hard bike workouts must also help.
I looked for the EN strategy on how to run a marathon (pacing) and could not find anything. Is there something i could use or some advice you could give? either based on pace or power or even HR. My goal is to break 4 hours, i will be super happy if i break 3:50 and over the moon if i break 3:40 (only if the stats align that day and it's cold).
@Vincent Sivirine - I agree 100% that the "mental six pack" from Best Bike Camp is strong. It's all relative right? The suffering that is...good call on moving the marathon. You should be fine.
We absolutely do have guidance for how to piece a marathon. The hard part is it's not something that we've upgraded to match the rest of our layouts. Sorry for the confusion. Here's a direct link or you can check out the wiki and learn more... there's even a video from super young Patrick!
Yes i found the information on Wiki, not sure why i missed it before but i have it now. And i have questions.
The most important one is I'm not sure which pace / power i'm supposed to run at.
I read two things which i think are kind of opposite: first that i should do most of my marathon in zone 2 but it feels too easy / slow.
I also read that i should pace 15 seconds slower per mile for the first 5 miles vs. target pace (so would be down -75 seconds) and then get the 75 seconds back over the next 15 miles by running 5" faster than target for each mile. And then you have a 10K to finish. This makes sense to me but what is my target?
My most recent races are the 3K from DIY Tri last month which i ran outside (was probably low 80F). I was at 76.6 kg then, i'm at 74 kg now. I ran 13:27 which shows a VDOT of 42 and equivalent pace of 5:14 min/km or 8:25 mn/mile.
I'm also using my half marathon time trial i did at the end of Outseason but i was 10 kgs heavier. I ran 1:49:00 which is VDOT of 40.8, equivalent time of 5:21 min/km or 8:37 mn/mile.
Finally i ran a 22:55 5K indoor on Zwift three months ago which is VDOT of 42.4, equivalent time of 5:11 min/km or 8:21 mn/mile. I think my pace on Zwift is slightly overstated or at least it feels easier (maybe the TM rebounds more?). At that time i was at least 10 to 15 pounds heavier than today.
Below are all my runs at marathon pace over the past 11 weeks as part of the marathon plan in FinalSurge. Two weeks are odd because of issues i had with the Stryd pod which updated my weight by mistake. It got fixed for the other runs (the pod is now configured with my weight of 82 kgs so at least i can compare weeks over weeks. My Stryd CP is 296 watts based on the same weight.
The Stryd PowerCenter race calculator thinks i should be able to run a 3:44 marathon at 269 watts average, factoring a ~ 50F temperature (for end of October, could even be colder). This equates to a 5:19 min / km / 8:33 mn per mile pace. It's actually very similar to what i ran today (but only ran 15K) with a 139 hr which for me is middle of zone 2
Based on all this data, and the fact that I'm following the marathon training to the letter (for the run part; i'm also doing the BBC bike workouts, I'm not swimming and i'm not doing strength training but i'm working often on my mobility / flexibility, especially hip flexibility, and i no longer have back pains or anything like this), what is my target pace or power?
Sorry for the very long post but i don't want to have done all this training (which i'm really enjoying) for nothing and have a bad race because of an incorrect target pace / power.
If it's easier we can talk and i can schedule a Zoom call next week before i do my Marathon rehearsal the Saturday after next (in 10 days) or we do the call after the Marathon RR if you think it's better.
@Vincent Sivirine - information, thank you so much for taking the time to put it all together. I can't tell you how many times I need to go back-and-forth with people just to get a fair understanding of what it is they are describing. This should be the blueprint for how people should present their bigger questions!
I really like the Stryd calculator and I think we use that for your simulation run and we can plan from there.
So, that would be 8:48 for 5 miles, then 8:28s rolling onwards. From power perspective, it's not as clean since power is instant and miles are, well, times on each mile. I would suggest 250W to 260W for 5 miles, then 270-280 moving onwards. If it's possible for you to manage both in the Simulation, that would be great (target 250 and see the pace per mile...or KM).
Thanks you for the input above. I scheduled a call next Thursday. I ran my race simul this morning, i had scheduled it for tomorrow Sunday but the weather changed (tomorrow's forecast is rain all day) so i decided this morning to do the run today.
It did not go super well but i can identify three reasons:
1 - first the weather was much warmer (65F at first, 70F at the end) and 100% humidity (it rained all night and when i started it was still sprinkling) and
2 - my week was a bit heavy with 10m run on Monday (that was last Sunday wko that i pushed to Monday), a hard race on Zwift with Team EN on Tuesday, another 10 miles at MP two days ago (see below). I think that also played into a slower pace especially the last 4 miles. My body was tired
3 - (edited - I'm writing this # 3 on Sunday morning, 24 hours later) - I think i bonked. I thought my nutrition was enough but i got weak by mile 15. I look at it from the standpoint that for the rest of Saturday after i got back home i had a headache, i was massively hungry for carbs, dehydrated, really felt broken. On Sunday morning things are ok now but i really think I did not hydrate well enough given the high humidity. I also get some sun on my face (despite the rainy / cloudy skys) so note to myself to always put sunscreen.
I was on pace for the first 5 miles at TRP and then the next 9 at MP but i could not accelerate for the last 4 miles and even slowed down. That was painful at the end. Here's the link to the wko https://connect.garmin.com/modern/activity/5658642997, or from TP is attached.
I ran with my newer Carbon X, was perfect. No issue, they are actually comfortable. It was my longest run with them (i built from a 5k to 5m to 10m over the past few weeks). Because of the humidity and a bit of rain i was completely drenched at the end. No issues, i'm kind of used to it here in Georgia but it's no fun.
Nutrition wise: when i decided i would run this morning i had a bottle of UCAN, a bottle of Maurten (180), a UCAN chocolate bar, few blueberries and a tea spoon of caramel (yummy, i wanted quick sugars) with apple sauce. That was about 90 minutes before i started running. I did not bother me when i was running.
First gel was SIS isotonic gel at 5 miles, then water at 6 miles, then Maurten gel + water at ~ 9 miles, Hammer gel + water at 12 miles, water + SIS isotonic gel at 15 miles. i think i may have been a bit light on nutrition or at least given the high humidity i should have added salt tablets...
For my race in three weeks the only thing that will be available will be water (the official race has been cancelled but the race director will still have an unofficial race for whoever wants to race the course with water aid stations but without any police - they will have start and finish mats) so i tried to replicate this environment today. I'm hoping the weather will be closer to 50F or maybe lower with humidity of 50%-60%. I was thinking i would need a SIS gel every 4 to 5 miles, so about 5 gels for the race.
The workout details are in metric but if you want to see imperial i believe you can look for the workout on Strava, it will be automatically converted.
Maybe i will change my mind but right now i'm thinking that if in three weeks the weather is not favorable (warm and especially humid) i may only race a half marathon then and then either find another race or do a time trial marathon later in November when the temperature for sure will be in the 40s-50s max.
Looking forward to our call on Thursday, have a great week end,
@Vincent Sivirine - we can talk more on the call, but I agree with almost all of your assessment.
First, yes your training load was high going to get run, a good reminder of how important the paper is on the event gets closer.
Two, you didn't account for how difficult that Run will be. It makes it even a mile a day seem much more… And that's just a function of how close you are to your fitness line (how hard you are pushing). So sunscreen, pre run hydration (salt pill with breakfast), etc all matter.
Three, I see where you mentioned water, but I certainly hope you were drinking more often. I recommend having a sip of something almost every mile or lets call it 2k in your case. Even if this means a fuel belt...even if this is only for the first 2h, it makes a difference in offsetting late race dehydration issues.
Four, I recommend having caffeinated fuel in the second half...Typically switch to caffeinated coffee blocks or caffeinated gels after the two hour mark. It helps keep your heart rate up and your mental focus on point.
One week to go before the race and i did my last 8 miles @ TRP today (last 8 miles @ MP two days ago). The race will be an "Covid altered" one, basically with no police to block streets when we're crossing (but this is not really an issue, the race is on a former train track between Atlanta and Alabama which has been converted in a bike / run trail (https://silvercometraces.com/ with only few street crossings), and limited aid stations (water only and likely just for the half marathon, which means about a half marathon to go with my own water).
Start race is 8am, it is located about 40mn from my house. I was planning on a 300-400 calories breakfast around 4.30/5am (some oatmeal, apple sauce, small yogurt, berries, caramel), UCAN bottle until an hour before the start then sip water until 20 min before start. Then a gel before start and a gel every 30' (caffeinated gels after 2 hours), so 8 gels total. i will have access to water at aid stations the first and last 7 miles. The other 12 miles i may be on my own and am planning on running with one liter of water which i calculated would suffice for these self supported 12 miles.
My last runs have been just ok, first because my legs have been feeling heavy (Zwift racing and last Sunday CnC maybe were not such great ideas) and also because weather has been warm (70-78F) and humid (96% humidity this morning). Weather forecast for the race is 50F at the start, low 60s at the ned and ~75% humidity, so much better.
I will spend this week doing a lot of stretching and foam roller, the plan calls for a fatmax / easy 70' bike tomorrow and then Monday - Thursday 5 miles at LRP, Friday is rest day, Saturday is race day.
On race day i will pay attention to hydrating early (will also bring saltstick tablet with me) and building pace gradually to try to keep my heart rate as on the low side as long as possible. My last two runs, my hr was low 150s which is bottom of hr zone 3 (but with higher heat and humidity than on race day). I will run on power next Saturday targeting 265-270 range but should i also monitor based on hr and try to stay in hr zone 2 ? or do i trust my training and just look at power and ensure that pace is on track?
HR and morning breakfast are the two questions i have for you if you don't mind. Stryd has me around 3:45-3:50... that would be nice.. current PR is 4:16..
Edited: weather forecast is now 38F low to 67F high, looking good :-). I know that on the bike, when it's cold and i drink i need to pee all the time. I don't want this to happen on the run. Should i still drink from the start as if it was not cold or should i drink a bit less and take salt pills instead?
@Vincent Sivirine -- you are about as ready as you can humanly be! Really impressed with the total block of training even able to get in and your focus on execution as well. With the event around the corner, this is the perfect time to make some small changes. First, this week the rest will help you significantly. Stay active every day, but nothing hard. Lots of stretching.
5am Breakfast sounds good, please include 12-16oz of sports drink here (I am thinking Gatorade Endurance with sodium, etc). I am a little concerned about the Porta John situation at the race venue. Please identify one or two other fast food restaurants or places where you could go if needed. Definitely bring your own toilet paper too just in case. That would be terrible.
Will be very hydrated leading into the race and I don't think you need to go very aggressive with the fluids at the start. I would suggest having a sip every mile for the first half hour to get settled in. By then you will have acclimated to the temperature and know just how much drinking is required. Your pace will feel easy and the temp will help as well. Regular salt all day unless your tummy starts to push back and get sloshy/angry with you.
Things will get harder as you get to the second half of the run which is what we need to be set up for. If you've been well hydrated since the start and sipping every mile, plus consistently taking in your food you should be good.
As you go, you will want to keep with the fueling schedule although you may not be able to eat the whole gel at once. Feel free to eat half and then wait two or three minutes before having the second half if that's easier.
I do suggest writing down target times for each 10 km. 10, 20, 30, 40. You might be able to memorize them, I would probably write them on my arm in permanent marker. Don't worry so much about the mile splits as hitting your power numbers. When you hit 10 K, note the total time which should be displayed on your watch, and compare it to your target.
IOW, your power will get you to the station on time, the "10k" check ins let you see where you are at with minimal brain power. So if 10k target is 53:20 for example, and you get there at 53:34 you know you are 14 seconds off and can decide actions accordingly.
For HR, use power but make sure HR is "correlated" with those numbers you've seen. So a 245 = a low Zone 2 HR in training should be the same or lower on race day. Until mile 15-18 that is....
Which brings me to the final part which is the mental game. At some point in time things are going to get hard. Your job isn't to all of a sudden go faster, your job is to not slow down. This is the time when we start digging deep focusing on form and setting incremental goals. To the next street light, to the next kilometer, etc. Your job is to get as close to the 40km mark as possible, as you will naturally pick things back up then as needed because the finish is closer.
First let me say that although i was secretly hoping i could break 3:45, I did not but i'm not disappointed at all. I could barely walk after i crossed the finish line so no regrets, i did the best i could today based on how i executed the race. My official time is 3:52:14 which is 90 seconds faster than what Stryd calculated, i noticed after the race that i had a wrong calibration factor on the Stryd which is why it likely under calculated distance (i had to run an extra 250 yards after i crossed the finish line to get my watch to show 26.2 miles - that was not fun).
This post is probably too detailed but i'm hoping that with this data you can help me assess how i could do better next time.
I followed the taper to the letter (runs Mo through Th, although a bit shorter (went for 7k the first three days and 5k on Thursday), stretched and rolled every day and the dog got walked 40 minutes every day. Happy dog. With a bit of a lower volume my weight increased a bit this week, i was at 164 pounds and change this morning. I was really hydrated, i must have drinken over 4 liters of water and hydrolytes every day (i used the electrolyte powder that you buy at CVS or Walgreens for kids who have nauseas / diarreas and who need to replenish their lost electrolytes - very little sugar and 400 mg of sodium per liter).
Temperature was in the mid 40s at the start, probably mid / high 50s at the end. I ran with a singlet and arm warmers (that i disposed of by mile 12 and an hydration vest with 7 gels (used them all), 0.5 liters of water + hydrolytes + half of one packet of The Right Stuff which is around 1800 mg of sugar (so 900 mg in my 0.5 liter bottle). In total i estimate my bottle had between 1000 and 1100 mg of sodium. I also had a Gatorade Endurance bottle for breakfast (on top of around 400 calories from oatmeal, apple sauce and a salty caramel waffle).
Because of the cold weather i must have peed 3 times before the start. I had made sure i did not have a drink between 5am (after breakfast) and 8am (race start) because i knew i would be peeing like crazy otherwise. I took a gel every 30 minutes. Said differently i had my bottle of GE and two coffees for breakfast, then nothing until i started running.
Gels were a combo of different brands except after 2 hours where they were mostly GUs Roctane (caffeine and more sodium). I also had 3 (maybe 4?) salt pills every 30 minutes so for the first 90 minutes (maybe up to two hours, can't remember).
Stryd is actually where you best see how my power and pace dropped with ~ 14km to go (8-9 miles). Yes, the 18 mile mark got me...
During the race I emptied my 0.5l bottle and drank water at most aid stations (one or two sips each time, they used these little cups that you find at dentist offices, so i think it contains maybe 3-4 oz?). at most i stopped maybe 8 times for water. I never felt under hydrated but after the race i gulped nearly three liters of liquid (chocolate milk, coke, water + hydration) and a fourth one at home. . In the shower at home after having drank all this liquid i was only able to pee just a very small quantity and my urine was dark dark yellow so i thought maybe i did not drink enough (again!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ). Later on Saturday and Sunday i felt i needed to drink, a lot. So either i did not drink enough or i had too much sodium in my body for the amount of water i drank?
I did not have stomach issues at all; my muscles were more of the issue: towards the last tier of the race my legs started to hurt which was expected. I nearly had cramps in each calf but immediately drank my salty potion and cramps went away. My quads were really painful the last 5-6 miles.
I ran with power (Stryd goal was 268w) and was checking my pace at every km. From pacing standpoint i was not super consistent although i was i think directionally where i wanted to be. 54 minutes at 10K, 1h54 min at the half point mark but nearly 2 hours on the second half, 59 min for the last 10K and 30 min for the last 5K. I did not have much in the tank left. I never walked (except one or two seconds to get water), and i had two friends riding their bike next to me for the last 10k so really i could not walk :-)
So now i'm of course trying to put my analytical brain at work to analyze what i could have done better: clearly i remember you telling me that the goal for the last 8 miles is to not slow down and i did slow down. The question is why. Maybe i did not drink enough although i'm estimating i drank around a liter during the race (a sip every 2 km, stopping for a small cup of water at aid stations), but i'm also thinking there could be other factors. The fact that my quads were hurting and more generally my body slowing down quite a lot at the end are maybe signs that my body does not have what it takes in terms of endurance (yet). I tried to reconcile this against what we did with Best Bike Camp and it's true that my profile is more a all rounder cyclist vs. an endurance guy. My VLAMAX is 0.46 and maybe these physiological characteristics also apply to the run. After all it's the same muscles propelling us on the bike and on the run. Do you think that the work on the bike to lower my VLAMAX would also translate to the run?
So do i need to run more (increase frequency and total mileage to build more resilience in my legs? do i need to improve my form (although my friend Dave Brunner who was following me at the end was telling me that i looked strong (but maybe it was just lying to help me cross this finish line) with good cadence (according to Stryd i had a 181 average cadence today). So do i need to run faster and push myself more on speed sessions?Probably genetics, body comp, sport history (i never was much of a runner in high school and in my adult life until i picked up triathlon when i was early 40s) and maybe other physiological factors i can't really control as well as age influence how fast i could run. But i deeply believe that i can do better and maybe much better than i did today. What i don't know is beside better race execution what is the next lever i can pull. What do you think i need to do to run a 3.30 - 3.40 marathon?
For now my plan is to take a week off with lots of walking, then focus on the second 6 week cycle of BBC workouts, run easy 3-4 times a week (30-40 min) and add a longer 8 mile run at TRP as a easy brick after one week end bike workout? And also i will start to swim again just to try to remember what it's like.. just drills to get some technique back. Maybe one or two swim sessions per week at most.
My week would look like this. Monday rest day, Tuesday Vo2Long + easy run (optional), Wednesday Coffee Ride + easy run (optional), Thursday FatMax + town line sprints, Friday TRP run up to 8 miles, Saturday Scott G. new ride at 8am which i think is a tempo with harder finish + easy run (optional), Sunday CnC + easy run (optional). Maybe i could swap Thursdays and Fridays if it makes more sense.
Then January Outseason and hope we can race in 2021. Are you ok with it, or anything you would do differently?
There are a lot of questions, i apologize in advance. But trying to understand and then improve is exciting.
Thanks. I really mean it. If someone had told me 18 months ago that i could improve my runs and get close to 3h50, improving my PR by 25 minutes i probably would have laughed. You have created something very special with EN and I'm very glad I'm part of it (as Scott G would say, i found my tribe :-)
@Vincent Sivirine - I want to hit that review for you, but first the checkin piece to close out.
Swim Fitness vs Last Month: 1
Bike Fitness vs Last Month: 2
Run Fitness vs Last Month: 3
Body Comp vs Last Month: 3
Next month's focus: Recover, don't lose too much of run fitness, Zwift and start rebuilding upper body strength that i lost with weight loss
Extra help request: I'm always looking for the one thing i currently don't do that's going to help me get better in 2021. Right now, trying to sleep 8 hours. What is the next thing (big or not) that i need to focus my attention on?
Run fitness...This is where Run durability will help you. You would be amazed at how much sleep and running can maintain your fitness. We don't need to do a hard intensity or super long workouts in order to maintain on fitness, only run sharpness. Since you don't have a specific event in mind, the consistency of the durability program will keep you on track while we begin to increase the intensity on the bike.
Next level...This is a hard one, as I feel like you have checked so many boxes already. Is there a particular area where you feel as though you are lacking? Also just a thought, but I'd like to keep you focused on one change a month so we have time to absorb it and see whether or not it works for you.
The Race!!
First off, I'm pleased to see that you appreciate what you've been able to achieve. Your focus in the last few months both on body composition and run training has been impressive. Running sub four is a huge milestone both mentally and physically. It's good to see that you are aware of that.
From a logistical perspective I think you did a great job. I don't know what the weather was like in terms of wind, but the terrain looked fair.
You clearly had enough opportunities to hydrate, but yes I think dehydration was part of the issue for you. Nothing terrible, mind you. More just perhaps finding a way to have sports drink vs just water next time? That could be a flask of concentrated drink mix that you squirt into the cups of water as you drink it to dilute things. I have had to do that before at Races with minimal nutrition? I say this as generally water is meh in terms of your performance.
Nutritionally I think the food / fuel went well too...It sounds as though you might agree.
I think your form was good as your LSS from Stryd was consistent. Next level is yes, more running. Necessarily hard running, mind you, but building up to a really good consistent running baseline. This is where the durability comes in. If we can get you running 25 to 35 miles a week with minimal residual issues, I don't know but 8:45 to 9 minute per mile pace, running something like your race will feel super easy. That additional training is really the foundation for your future performance. To put it another way, you ran the best possible scenario this time around based on your fitness, experience and run volume. See my notes on Durability for this.
As for the bike helping you, yes re run in a triathlon. Not so much the open running...but I agree that INSCYD shows us your fitness baseline, which is all rounder. Making your more endurance based is just a game of time. Showing up, staying healthy, and loving the process.
Enjoy that recovery! And yes, recover in Zwift too!!!
i took it easy last week, no runs but long daily walks and Zwift (easy all week except Dial it up to 11 and CnC yesterday with only first lap going hard on the crush part, second lap was easy). I weighed myself this morning (i had given myself a week off the scale last week to also clear my mind from nutrition discipline) and was back at 165, my weight on race day. So 2021 is kicking off today 11/9.
I have loaded FS and TP until JOS and it's based of a combo of Run durability and the BBC workouts. Below is a screenshot of the first week (it changes a bit once RD 3 kicks in and there are two 2x1m sessions per week).
Two questions. Is the EN Dial up to 11 comparable to the Coffee Ride? i think so but wanted to check with you.
Above is how i've structured the next 8 weeks (based on Run Durability 2 for 4 weeks then RD 3 for another 4 weeks, and BBC phase 2 for 6 weeks). That will give me one week of rest before JOS. Does this make sense to you or what would you change? i tried to combine the BBC workouts, add one Zwift WRL race on Tuesdays, give myself a day off (Wednesday), keep the tempo / FTP ride (Coffee Ride which I think the EN Dial up to 11 can replace) and the CnC (knowing that if I'm tired i'll take it easier on the crush parts, in that case it becomes a recovery ride). The Friday FatMax would probably be between 90 minutes and 120 minutes and i see it more like an easier / recovery longer ride.
At some point if i feel stronger i want to give Hang On another shot, either as a replacement for Dial it up to 11 or a complement but that will be later in November or December.
I've loaded RD 2 and RD3 in FinalSurge but i prefer to use TrainingPeaks so i also loaded the wkos there.
@Vincent Sivirine - Great detail here. I can see why success finds you so easily. I think overall the basic structure is good but I am a little concerned about how things play out. Specifically I think the Sunday Monday Tuesday combination will eventually be pretty tiring. After all, the Tuesday race is all out, That Monday bike workout is going to be beefy, and there's nothing easy about cruise and crush.
Let's try it for a week and see how it works. My recommendations to ensure success are as follows: make sure Sunday's cruise and crush ride is no more than 90 minutes and that you run off of it very easily. The Monday V02 session has to be in the morning, 24 hours after your Sunday ride. Then you have the Tuesday night race. That gives you 24 and then 36 hours of rest.
IOW, let's be really really strict about total bike time the first two weeks..main set / work done...no bonus stuff. As you adapt.
I should have listened to you better @Coach Patrick. Last week was 783 TSS, 7 hours on the bike and 4 hours on the run. Yesterday (Sunday) CnC i went hard on the hills but did not really go hard on the sprints, more like i was the lead out for others. I actually went running before CnC but i could have run afterwards with no issues.
This morning (Monday 11/16) i sucked and did not even try the first interval, my legs were heavy and i simply did not have it, so i stopped and went for a 45 mn run which was awesome. Clearly as we say in French "my eyes were bigger than my stomach" in terms of hard bike volume. So i'll drop the Tuesday race when it is a TTT (like tomorrow) and will do Vo2 long workout, and will do the race when it's a solo race (and will do Vo2 long wko later in the week)
So you're okay with swapping Coffee ride for Dial it up to 11? i think they are similar but wanted your confirmation. Also i can't find the Cofveve coffee ride anymore, what if i did the KISS race on Thursdays at 6am, is that a good one that fits what i have to do? so my week would look like this: Tuesday VO2 long wko, Thursday Kiss race or if not VO2 short like Crit City? Saturday Dial it up to 11, Sunday CnC and probably a 60' FATMAX on Friday.
11/17 - had trainer issues (power was erratic even in ERG mode and i felt i was pushing more than the prescribed 320-330w). I was able to do the first three but not the next 3. I will try again next week. As a guideline when you fail a workout you should do it instead of progressing to the next one, correct?
So my conclusion of the week is that i need to have a super light Monday and the most important wko of the week is this Vo2 long on Tuesday morning. Still not clear why i'm struggling so much at 4 minutes at 330w.. i guess i'm better at Vo2 short than Vo2 long.. more work required. I signed up for the Inscyd retest and i think i will do it late December after i focus on all these upcoming bike wkos.
I rearranged my week to ensure i had the Vo2long Tuesday wko, a hard tempo ride (Team TT on Thursday), Dial it up to 11 on Saturday and a hard CnC this morning which was good. I also added a super easy recovery 40' ride (just the grey color on Zwift) after the harder run workout.
On the run side i have loaded run durability so i have a 2x2km on Wednesday, a 45 mns hilly run and short 30' runs with strides sprinkled over the week( 5-6 runs total per week). I'll swim on Mondays and Fridays as recovery (mostly drills) and i think the week is well balanced like this. Around 800 TSS, 6 hours bike, 4 hours run until two weeks before JOS where i'll take it easy for two weeks and then JOS.
My plan before (the one i shared with you) was too challenging, i failed the Vo2 long wko and was too tired. So i adjusted.
I'm also trying to stay on top of body comp (i've gained two pounds and am sitting at 165-166, that's the maximum i'm allowing through the holiday season) and am trying to do some strength sessions but it's hard to find motivation for these.
I'll keep monitoring my week by how i do 1/ the Vo2 long Tuesday wko, 2/ the 2x2km run (this week's went super well, i ran faster than ever and easy) and 3/ the hills interval on the CnC ride. As long as these are good i'll be happy.
Finally i also decided that i will try to run outside as much as possible weather permitting of course. I realized that to avoid my body and legs breaking down during the marathon i need to increase run frequency and also run more outside to make my legs more resilient. I ran a lot on the TM last year but the pace on Zwift is i think incorrect (a bit too fast) and more importantly you run on a very soft surface, so it's good but at the same time not so good in terms of building strength in the legs.
Anything you would change or are you okay with the above?
@Vincent Sivirine - all of that sounds great! I'm not sure if your superpower is how smart you are, or how flexible you are with changing the plans that she put into place. I've met plenty of smart athletes, but once you put them on a specific path of changing is the equivalent to sawing their own arm off! 😱
This edit seems great. Don't worry too much about the body comp..stay smart. It's pretty typical to see after we pick and complete an event. The body itself needs to "rebound" a little bit. As long as your follow in the right process, things will normalize I promise.
I love the idea of you running outside as much as possible. As the conditions were awesome, don't worry too much about the speed numbers. Maybe you save those days for the treadmill or replace running super fast with finding an incline to challenge you at a slower speed...Dimension, it's not about how fast you can run on Wednesdays that matters, is that overall run frequency as we complete across an entire block.
The week went well with the adjusted schedule. ~ 850 TSS with an added short Vo2 long session (30' only) before the Saturday Dial it to 11 ride and a short Vo2 Crit City one before Sunday CnC. Weekends are heavy but i like the rhythm of easy Monday, three heavier days, easy Friday, two heavy days. I also bought the Normatec boots so recovery here i come!
i realized that i've been technically failing all my Vo2 long workouts, ie being unable to do them at the prescribed power (125% = 330w) and / or having to stop during the last interval(s). So i decided to start from scratch again and did the 1.0 (3x 3'/3') before the Dial up to 11 on Saturday. i passed but that is not easy at 330w.
Unless you disagree, i was thinking i will swallow my ego and continue from the start (next one next Tuesday would be 2.1, then 2.2 next Saturday etc..instead of the 4.1 that i was only able to finish but at 10 watts lower than prescribed 125%. Two workouts a week , if i fail one i will repeat until i pass. Zwift Racing is good and fun but did not really made me work hard enough on Vo2 long apparently. I really want to make a push for Vo2 in December before Incsyd re-testing late December / early January.
Run is going well (6 runs this week, all outside), i really like the longer 70' run at BAA TRP. I do it at a local track (unfortunately not a soft surface but asphalt) to ensure i can control the pace on a flat terrain.
Question on JOS, will i go for the run focus or bike focus plan? last year i did bike focus; what do you recommend?
@Vincent Sivirine - thanks for the check-in. I agree that the weekends are heavy, but I think that the Monday Friday lighter days, on a repeated cycle, will allow you space to adapt and to continue to see improvement. The stacking of those lighter days is just as important as the stacking of the work on the heavier days. Look forward to hearing how this progression works for you.
Glad that you said "technically" failing, as I wouldn't say that what you did was a failure in anyway. But I do like your disciplined approach. There's nothing wrong with taking a step back and then rebuilding the process. This is as much a fitness problem to solve as it is a mental focus problem. Restarting gives you the chance to achieve both facets and then ideally sustain them as the intervals come.
I mentioned this the other day to @Rory Gumina But it bears repeating here as well: it's very difficult to complete video too long sessions on the weekend. It's possible that, with an easier Friday, you will have more success. But it is something to keep an eye on should you find yourself unable to do the watts you want.
The run consistency looks good! So too does the swimming...note if you Find yourself additionally fatigued at the start of the week or the end, the first thing to go is that swim session. You can stay home and do some bodyweight exercises as a minimal effect of those allowing you to hopefully get a bit more rest. Again, something just to file away.
Comments
Thanks @matt limbert. My FTP came in very close to what i was estimating.
See, i had been using 281w that came from Zwift during a Sprint Bump Race few months ago but i always felt that it was a bit over stated. Also the numbers you took came from my pedals and are lower than what got recorded on the Kickr (that i used previously as powermeter) by around 13w for the 6 minutes and 10 minutes intervals. So that makes total sense. Good thing is a lower FTP will allow me to accrue more TSS for the same workout now and boost my CTL in TrainingPeaks :-)
As for my Vlama of .46 it does not seem very low.. so i assume much work ahead to lower it.
Vincent
@Coach Patrick, quick update again. 168.5 pounds today and 8.9% body fat. Very happy with what happened over the past 6 weeks, thank you again for your nutritional tips. Nearly -15 pounds..and again by just eating normal, lean meats / fish, lots of veggies (grilled or pureed) and good carbs (steel oats for breakfast, black / brown rice). Outside of 2 pieces of chocolate with my lunch and dinner expresso no more sugars, nothing processed food and no milk (i drink almond milk) and only one greek yogurt a day for breakfast. I feel like i finally cracked the code of what's working for me.
One thing i'm focusing on is to ensure that this weight loss is not impacting my training nor my normal life. So far it has not, this is one reason why i keep racing Crit city on Zwift to ensure i can still compete in my B group (so far so good). Running is going well also although and i'm always listenning to what my body is telling me, from a pain somewhere to feeling tired / cranky etc.. as a sign that i should hold off for a while... but again so far so good. No pain, no injury; i have not been super good with strength training but i do try to spend time doing mobility exercises (i used to have super tight hips that were creating back pains but not anymore).
Two questions for you:
1/ Outside of these control mechanism i described above, what else should i be watching to ensure that i'm not losing too much weight (if this is possible...). Looking at my body i certainly have at least 5+ pounds of fat that can go away but the last thing i want is to get tired and injured or to lose fitness.
2/ Also In your experience if i continue eating / training the same and my weight continue dropping regularly (maybe 1 pound a week), will it stabilize at some point ? (i think yes but i'm no specialist).
Also wanted to tell you that BestBike is pretty awesome and i'm looking forward to the next 3 weeks. Same for the podcasts, i really liked the last one and it resonated with me because i think this pandemic is paradoxally creating the conditions for future success by not racing this year and therefore allowing us to invest in ourselves, whatever that is for each person. For me the combination of improving body comp, feeling close to a breakthrough on the bike and the continuous improvement on the run have been quite positive. Another year to go before i see the line at mile 18 at IM Switz and IM Temblant, where the real fun begins. Can't wait!
Thanks for everything you do for us, much much appreciated.
Vincent
@Vincent Sivirine how are you liking the Bike Camp thus far?
@Coach Patrick , i think you did not read my beautiful post from yesterday, so hurtful, so sad...
@Vincent Sivirine - I hear you...it's a lot to process. I suggest that we get through the camp recommendations first, and then we can figure out how it all integrates. 👍
@Coach Patrick i hope you had a good Labor Day weekend.
General comments :
My weight has been stable at 168 -169 pounds these past two weeks. My appetite has decreased and i don't see any negative impact on training. I think 165 pounds is a reasonable target as i get closer to my marathon. % fat is hovering between 8 and 9%
I've shifted all power measurements on Zwift to my Assioma pedals, for workouts and races. I lost 15w of power between Kickr and pedals but still racing ok so i guess fitness has offset these 15w.. good.
Questions
looking at the schedule for the two blocks following BestBikeCamp i have the following questions:
Run 1 - where do i fit my long run? on Friday and do a 5m LRP after CnC on Sunday? or don't do CnC and keep 5m at LRP on Friday and do longer runs at TRP on Sunday?
Run 2 - i currently have 4 runs a week. Do i keep the MP and TRP ones and replace the 2 times 5 miles at LRP (or at least 1) as short brick sessions after the hard bike rides?
Run 3 - i still have 9 weeks of marathon training, which means that from mid November to end December i will be 80% on the bike and only doing run durability or easy recovery runs. Am i correct?
Run 4 - in my second block how do i fit the last 2 weeks of my marathon training? (on Monday 9/7 i will be 8 weeks away from my race so i have a 4 week difference between last weeks of this run plan and my 12 week bike blocks)
Bike 1 - can i use a short FatMax wko with low cadence as as immediate recovery session after a Crit City race (ie warm up 15', race 30', FatMax low cadence 30' or 45')?
Bike 2 - there is a comment in my final report that i have a VLaMax session in my second block but i don't see it. You also said that i should not do any VLaMax work until Outseason i think so that's okay
Bike 3 - i thought Cruise and Crush would increase my VLaMax. I know you said have longer sprints (at least 30') but still? do the benefits of increasing Vo2 outweigh the risk of also increasing VLaMax?
Bike 4 - if i want to add easier recovery wkos before dinner, do i always go with short FatMax with low cadence (up to an hour) or what would you suggest? (assuming all hard workouts take place in mornings)
@Vincent Sivirine man on a mission!!!
Le Run...
Le Bike...
I agree things worked out with the pedals...letting go of those watts is a tough ego move, but it always seems to work out!
~ Coach P
Thanks @Coach Patrick, all is clear.
I moved my marathon by a week (Savannah was cancelled) and signed up for a local one that has a legit change to be happening and which is relatively flat. So i adjusted the plan accordingly between last week and this week so that the last 6 weeks are left unchanged.
Weight is hovering 165-166 pounds and i noticed this morning while running a 11 miles a MP on the treadmill that it is actually easier than the bike workouts. My HR stayed under 140 despite running closer to HMP than MP and finishing strong. Maybe it's the fact i'm lighter but i also think the hard bike workouts must also help.
I looked for the EN strategy on how to run a marathon (pacing) and could not find anything. Is there something i could use or some advice you could give? either based on pace or power or even HR. My goal is to break 4 hours, i will be super happy if i break 3:50 and over the moon if i break 3:40 (only if the stats align that day and it's cold).
Thanks
Vincent
@Vincent Sivirine - I agree 100% that the "mental six pack" from Best Bike Camp is strong. It's all relative right? The suffering that is...good call on moving the marathon. You should be fine.
We absolutely do have guidance for how to piece a marathon. The hard part is it's not something that we've upgraded to match the rest of our layouts. Sorry for the confusion. Here's a direct link or you can check out the wiki and learn more... there's even a video from super young Patrick!
Let me know what you think!
~ Patrick
@Coach Patrick
Yes i found the information on Wiki, not sure why i missed it before but i have it now. And i have questions.
The most important one is I'm not sure which pace / power i'm supposed to run at.
I read two things which i think are kind of opposite: first that i should do most of my marathon in zone 2 but it feels too easy / slow.
I also read that i should pace 15 seconds slower per mile for the first 5 miles vs. target pace (so would be down -75 seconds) and then get the 75 seconds back over the next 15 miles by running 5" faster than target for each mile. And then you have a 10K to finish. This makes sense to me but what is my target?
My most recent races are the 3K from DIY Tri last month which i ran outside (was probably low 80F). I was at 76.6 kg then, i'm at 74 kg now. I ran 13:27 which shows a VDOT of 42 and equivalent pace of 5:14 min/km or 8:25 mn/mile.
I'm also using my half marathon time trial i did at the end of Outseason but i was 10 kgs heavier. I ran 1:49:00 which is VDOT of 40.8, equivalent time of 5:21 min/km or 8:37 mn/mile.
Finally i ran a 22:55 5K indoor on Zwift three months ago which is VDOT of 42.4, equivalent time of 5:11 min/km or 8:21 mn/mile. I think my pace on Zwift is slightly overstated or at least it feels easier (maybe the TM rebounds more?). At that time i was at least 10 to 15 pounds heavier than today.
Below are all my runs at marathon pace over the past 11 weeks as part of the marathon plan in FinalSurge. Two weeks are odd because of issues i had with the Stryd pod which updated my weight by mistake. It got fixed for the other runs (the pod is now configured with my weight of 82 kgs so at least i can compare weeks over weeks. My Stryd CP is 296 watts based on the same weight.
The Stryd PowerCenter race calculator thinks i should be able to run a 3:44 marathon at 269 watts average, factoring a ~ 50F temperature (for end of October, could even be colder). This equates to a 5:19 min / km / 8:33 mn per mile pace. It's actually very similar to what i ran today (but only ran 15K) with a 139 hr which for me is middle of zone 2
Based on all this data, and the fact that I'm following the marathon training to the letter (for the run part; i'm also doing the BBC bike workouts, I'm not swimming and i'm not doing strength training but i'm working often on my mobility / flexibility, especially hip flexibility, and i no longer have back pains or anything like this), what is my target pace or power?
Sorry for the very long post but i don't want to have done all this training (which i'm really enjoying) for nothing and have a bad race because of an incorrect target pace / power.
If it's easier we can talk and i can schedule a Zoom call next week before i do my Marathon rehearsal the Saturday after next (in 10 days) or we do the call after the Marathon RR if you think it's better.
Thanks
Vincent
@Vincent Sivirine - information, thank you so much for taking the time to put it all together. I can't tell you how many times I need to go back-and-forth with people just to get a fair understanding of what it is they are describing. This should be the blueprint for how people should present their bigger questions!
I really like the Stryd calculator and I think we use that for your simulation run and we can plan from there.
So, that would be 8:48 for 5 miles, then 8:28s rolling onwards. From power perspective, it's not as clean since power is instant and miles are, well, times on each mile. I would suggest 250W to 260W for 5 miles, then 270-280 moving onwards. If it's possible for you to manage both in the Simulation, that would be great (target 250 and see the pace per mile...or KM).
Let's talk post Sim run (https://calendly.com/pmccrann/15min ) and I will want to know what you are eating / drinking as you run!
~ Coach Patrick
@Coach Patrick ,
Thanks you for the input above. I scheduled a call next Thursday. I ran my race simul this morning, i had scheduled it for tomorrow Sunday but the weather changed (tomorrow's forecast is rain all day) so i decided this morning to do the run today.
It did not go super well but i can identify three reasons:
1 - first the weather was much warmer (65F at first, 70F at the end) and 100% humidity (it rained all night and when i started it was still sprinkling) and
2 - my week was a bit heavy with 10m run on Monday (that was last Sunday wko that i pushed to Monday), a hard race on Zwift with Team EN on Tuesday, another 10 miles at MP two days ago (see below). I think that also played into a slower pace especially the last 4 miles. My body was tired
3 - (edited - I'm writing this # 3 on Sunday morning, 24 hours later) - I think i bonked. I thought my nutrition was enough but i got weak by mile 15. I look at it from the standpoint that for the rest of Saturday after i got back home i had a headache, i was massively hungry for carbs, dehydrated, really felt broken. On Sunday morning things are ok now but i really think I did not hydrate well enough given the high humidity. I also get some sun on my face (despite the rainy / cloudy skys) so note to myself to always put sunscreen.
I was on pace for the first 5 miles at TRP and then the next 9 at MP but i could not accelerate for the last 4 miles and even slowed down. That was painful at the end. Here's the link to the wko https://connect.garmin.com/modern/activity/5658642997, or from TP is attached.
I ran with my newer Carbon X, was perfect. No issue, they are actually comfortable. It was my longest run with them (i built from a 5k to 5m to 10m over the past few weeks). Because of the humidity and a bit of rain i was completely drenched at the end. No issues, i'm kind of used to it here in Georgia but it's no fun.
Nutrition wise: when i decided i would run this morning i had a bottle of UCAN, a bottle of Maurten (180), a UCAN chocolate bar, few blueberries and a tea spoon of caramel (yummy, i wanted quick sugars) with apple sauce. That was about 90 minutes before i started running. I did not bother me when i was running.
First gel was SIS isotonic gel at 5 miles, then water at 6 miles, then Maurten gel + water at ~ 9 miles, Hammer gel + water at 12 miles, water + SIS isotonic gel at 15 miles. i think i may have been a bit light on nutrition or at least given the high humidity i should have added salt tablets...
For my race in three weeks the only thing that will be available will be water (the official race has been cancelled but the race director will still have an unofficial race for whoever wants to race the course with water aid stations but without any police - they will have start and finish mats) so i tried to replicate this environment today. I'm hoping the weather will be closer to 50F or maybe lower with humidity of 50%-60%. I was thinking i would need a SIS gel every 4 to 5 miles, so about 5 gels for the race.
The workout details are in metric but if you want to see imperial i believe you can look for the workout on Strava, it will be automatically converted.
Maybe i will change my mind but right now i'm thinking that if in three weeks the weather is not favorable (warm and especially humid) i may only race a half marathon then and then either find another race or do a time trial marathon later in November when the temperature for sure will be in the 40s-50s max.
Looking forward to our call on Thursday, have a great week end,
@Vincent Sivirine - we can talk more on the call, but I agree with almost all of your assessment.
First, yes your training load was high going to get run, a good reminder of how important the paper is on the event gets closer.
Two, you didn't account for how difficult that Run will be. It makes it even a mile a day seem much more… And that's just a function of how close you are to your fitness line (how hard you are pushing). So sunscreen, pre run hydration (salt pill with breakfast), etc all matter.
Three, I see where you mentioned water, but I certainly hope you were drinking more often. I recommend having a sip of something almost every mile or lets call it 2k in your case. Even if this means a fuel belt...even if this is only for the first 2h, it makes a difference in offsetting late race dehydration issues.
Four, I recommend having caffeinated fuel in the second half...Typically switch to caffeinated coffee blocks or caffeinated gels after the two hour mark. It helps keep your heart rate up and your mental focus on point.
Absorb this and we talk on Thursday!!
~ Coach P
Thanks @Coach Patrick for the call last week.
One week to go before the race and i did my last 8 miles @ TRP today (last 8 miles @ MP two days ago). The race will be an "Covid altered" one, basically with no police to block streets when we're crossing (but this is not really an issue, the race is on a former train track between Atlanta and Alabama which has been converted in a bike / run trail (https://silvercometraces.com/ with only few street crossings), and limited aid stations (water only and likely just for the half marathon, which means about a half marathon to go with my own water).
Start race is 8am, it is located about 40mn from my house. I was planning on a 300-400 calories breakfast around 4.30/5am (some oatmeal, apple sauce, small yogurt, berries, caramel), UCAN bottle until an hour before the start then sip water until 20 min before start. Then a gel before start and a gel every 30' (caffeinated gels after 2 hours), so 8 gels total. i will have access to water at aid stations the first and last 7 miles. The other 12 miles i may be on my own and am planning on running with one liter of water which i calculated would suffice for these self supported 12 miles.
My last runs have been just ok, first because my legs have been feeling heavy (Zwift racing and last Sunday CnC maybe were not such great ideas) and also because weather has been warm (70-78F) and humid (96% humidity this morning). Weather forecast for the race is 50F at the start, low 60s at the ned and ~75% humidity, so much better.
I will spend this week doing a lot of stretching and foam roller, the plan calls for a fatmax / easy 70' bike tomorrow and then Monday - Thursday 5 miles at LRP, Friday is rest day, Saturday is race day.
On race day i will pay attention to hydrating early (will also bring saltstick tablet with me) and building pace gradually to try to keep my heart rate as on the low side as long as possible. My last two runs, my hr was low 150s which is bottom of hr zone 3 (but with higher heat and humidity than on race day). I will run on power next Saturday targeting 265-270 range but should i also monitor based on hr and try to stay in hr zone 2 ? or do i trust my training and just look at power and ensure that pace is on track?
HR and morning breakfast are the two questions i have for you if you don't mind. Stryd has me around 3:45-3:50... that would be nice.. current PR is 4:16..
Edited: weather forecast is now 38F low to 67F high, looking good :-). I know that on the bike, when it's cold and i drink i need to pee all the time. I don't want this to happen on the run. Should i still drink from the start as if it was not cold or should i drink a bit less and take salt pills instead?
@Vincent Sivirine -- you are about as ready as you can humanly be! Really impressed with the total block of training even able to get in and your focus on execution as well. With the event around the corner, this is the perfect time to make some small changes. First, this week the rest will help you significantly. Stay active every day, but nothing hard. Lots of stretching.
5am Breakfast sounds good, please include 12-16oz of sports drink here (I am thinking Gatorade Endurance with sodium, etc). I am a little concerned about the Porta John situation at the race venue. Please identify one or two other fast food restaurants or places where you could go if needed. Definitely bring your own toilet paper too just in case. That would be terrible.
Will be very hydrated leading into the race and I don't think you need to go very aggressive with the fluids at the start. I would suggest having a sip every mile for the first half hour to get settled in. By then you will have acclimated to the temperature and know just how much drinking is required. Your pace will feel easy and the temp will help as well. Regular salt all day unless your tummy starts to push back and get sloshy/angry with you.
Things will get harder as you get to the second half of the run which is what we need to be set up for. If you've been well hydrated since the start and sipping every mile, plus consistently taking in your food you should be good.
As you go, you will want to keep with the fueling schedule although you may not be able to eat the whole gel at once. Feel free to eat half and then wait two or three minutes before having the second half if that's easier.
I do suggest writing down target times for each 10 km. 10, 20, 30, 40. You might be able to memorize them, I would probably write them on my arm in permanent marker. Don't worry so much about the mile splits as hitting your power numbers. When you hit 10 K, note the total time which should be displayed on your watch, and compare it to your target.
IOW, your power will get you to the station on time, the "10k" check ins let you see where you are at with minimal brain power. So if 10k target is 53:20 for example, and you get there at 53:34 you know you are 14 seconds off and can decide actions accordingly.
For HR, use power but make sure HR is "correlated" with those numbers you've seen. So a 245 = a low Zone 2 HR in training should be the same or lower on race day. Until mile 15-18 that is....
Which brings me to the final part which is the mental game. At some point in time things are going to get hard. Your job isn't to all of a sudden go faster, your job is to not slow down. This is the time when we start digging deep focusing on form and setting incremental goals. To the next street light, to the next kilometer, etc. Your job is to get as close to the 40km mark as possible, as you will naturally pick things back up then as needed because the finish is closer.
Taper it up!!!
~ Coach P
Hey @Coach Patrick
First let me say that although i was secretly hoping i could break 3:45, I did not but i'm not disappointed at all. I could barely walk after i crossed the finish line so no regrets, i did the best i could today based on how i executed the race. My official time is 3:52:14 which is 90 seconds faster than what Stryd calculated, i noticed after the race that i had a wrong calibration factor on the Stryd which is why it likely under calculated distance (i had to run an extra 250 yards after i crossed the finish line to get my watch to show 26.2 miles - that was not fun).
This post is probably too detailed but i'm hoping that with this data you can help me assess how i could do better next time.
I followed the taper to the letter (runs Mo through Th, although a bit shorter (went for 7k the first three days and 5k on Thursday), stretched and rolled every day and the dog got walked 40 minutes every day. Happy dog. With a bit of a lower volume my weight increased a bit this week, i was at 164 pounds and change this morning. I was really hydrated, i must have drinken over 4 liters of water and hydrolytes every day (i used the electrolyte powder that you buy at CVS or Walgreens for kids who have nauseas / diarreas and who need to replenish their lost electrolytes - very little sugar and 400 mg of sodium per liter).
Temperature was in the mid 40s at the start, probably mid / high 50s at the end. I ran with a singlet and arm warmers (that i disposed of by mile 12 and an hydration vest with 7 gels (used them all), 0.5 liters of water + hydrolytes + half of one packet of The Right Stuff which is around 1800 mg of sugar (so 900 mg in my 0.5 liter bottle). In total i estimate my bottle had between 1000 and 1100 mg of sodium. I also had a Gatorade Endurance bottle for breakfast (on top of around 400 calories from oatmeal, apple sauce and a salty caramel waffle).
Because of the cold weather i must have peed 3 times before the start. I had made sure i did not have a drink between 5am (after breakfast) and 8am (race start) because i knew i would be peeing like crazy otherwise. I took a gel every 30 minutes. Said differently i had my bottle of GE and two coffees for breakfast, then nothing until i started running.
Gels were a combo of different brands except after 2 hours where they were mostly GUs Roctane (caffeine and more sodium). I also had 3 (maybe 4?) salt pills every 30 minutes so for the first 90 minutes (maybe up to two hours, can't remember).
Attached are the race files.
Strava: https://www.strava.com/activities/4267442606
Garmin: https://connect.garmin.com/modern/activity/5753944252
Stryd: https://www.stryd.com/powercenter/runs/6455248919920640
Stryd is actually where you best see how my power and pace dropped with ~ 14km to go (8-9 miles). Yes, the 18 mile mark got me...
During the race I emptied my 0.5l bottle and drank water at most aid stations (one or two sips each time, they used these little cups that you find at dentist offices, so i think it contains maybe 3-4 oz?). at most i stopped maybe 8 times for water. I never felt under hydrated but after the race i gulped nearly three liters of liquid (chocolate milk, coke, water + hydration) and a fourth one at home. . In the shower at home after having drank all this liquid i was only able to pee just a very small quantity and my urine was dark dark yellow so i thought maybe i did not drink enough (again!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ). Later on Saturday and Sunday i felt i needed to drink, a lot. So either i did not drink enough or i had too much sodium in my body for the amount of water i drank?
I did not have stomach issues at all; my muscles were more of the issue: towards the last tier of the race my legs started to hurt which was expected. I nearly had cramps in each calf but immediately drank my salty potion and cramps went away. My quads were really painful the last 5-6 miles.
I ran with power (Stryd goal was 268w) and was checking my pace at every km. From pacing standpoint i was not super consistent although i was i think directionally where i wanted to be. 54 minutes at 10K, 1h54 min at the half point mark but nearly 2 hours on the second half, 59 min for the last 10K and 30 min for the last 5K. I did not have much in the tank left. I never walked (except one or two seconds to get water), and i had two friends riding their bike next to me for the last 10k so really i could not walk :-)
So now i'm of course trying to put my analytical brain at work to analyze what i could have done better: clearly i remember you telling me that the goal for the last 8 miles is to not slow down and i did slow down. The question is why. Maybe i did not drink enough although i'm estimating i drank around a liter during the race (a sip every 2 km, stopping for a small cup of water at aid stations), but i'm also thinking there could be other factors. The fact that my quads were hurting and more generally my body slowing down quite a lot at the end are maybe signs that my body does not have what it takes in terms of endurance (yet). I tried to reconcile this against what we did with Best Bike Camp and it's true that my profile is more a all rounder cyclist vs. an endurance guy. My VLAMAX is 0.46 and maybe these physiological characteristics also apply to the run. After all it's the same muscles propelling us on the bike and on the run. Do you think that the work on the bike to lower my VLAMAX would also translate to the run?
So do i need to run more (increase frequency and total mileage to build more resilience in my legs? do i need to improve my form (although my friend Dave Brunner who was following me at the end was telling me that i looked strong (but maybe it was just lying to help me cross this finish line) with good cadence (according to Stryd i had a 181 average cadence today). So do i need to run faster and push myself more on speed sessions?Probably genetics, body comp, sport history (i never was much of a runner in high school and in my adult life until i picked up triathlon when i was early 40s) and maybe other physiological factors i can't really control as well as age influence how fast i could run. But i deeply believe that i can do better and maybe much better than i did today. What i don't know is beside better race execution what is the next lever i can pull. What do you think i need to do to run a 3.30 - 3.40 marathon?
For now my plan is to take a week off with lots of walking, then focus on the second 6 week cycle of BBC workouts, run easy 3-4 times a week (30-40 min) and add a longer 8 mile run at TRP as a easy brick after one week end bike workout? And also i will start to swim again just to try to remember what it's like.. just drills to get some technique back. Maybe one or two swim sessions per week at most.
My week would look like this. Monday rest day, Tuesday Vo2Long + easy run (optional), Wednesday Coffee Ride + easy run (optional), Thursday FatMax + town line sprints, Friday TRP run up to 8 miles, Saturday Scott G. new ride at 8am which i think is a tempo with harder finish + easy run (optional), Sunday CnC + easy run (optional). Maybe i could swap Thursdays and Fridays if it makes more sense.
Then January Outseason and hope we can race in 2021. Are you ok with it, or anything you would do differently?
There are a lot of questions, i apologize in advance. But trying to understand and then improve is exciting.
Thanks. I really mean it. If someone had told me 18 months ago that i could improve my runs and get close to 3h50, improving my PR by 25 minutes i probably would have laughed. You have created something very special with EN and I'm very glad I'm part of it (as Scott G would say, i found my tribe :-)
@Vincent Sivirine - I want to hit that review for you, but first the checkin piece to close out.
Run fitness...This is where Run durability will help you. You would be amazed at how much sleep and running can maintain your fitness. We don't need to do a hard intensity or super long workouts in order to maintain on fitness, only run sharpness. Since you don't have a specific event in mind, the consistency of the durability program will keep you on track while we begin to increase the intensity on the bike.
Next level...This is a hard one, as I feel like you have checked so many boxes already. Is there a particular area where you feel as though you are lacking? Also just a thought, but I'd like to keep you focused on one change a month so we have time to absorb it and see whether or not it works for you.
The Race!!
First off, I'm pleased to see that you appreciate what you've been able to achieve. Your focus in the last few months both on body composition and run training has been impressive. Running sub four is a huge milestone both mentally and physically. It's good to see that you are aware of that.
From a logistical perspective I think you did a great job. I don't know what the weather was like in terms of wind, but the terrain looked fair.
You clearly had enough opportunities to hydrate, but yes I think dehydration was part of the issue for you. Nothing terrible, mind you. More just perhaps finding a way to have sports drink vs just water next time? That could be a flask of concentrated drink mix that you squirt into the cups of water as you drink it to dilute things. I have had to do that before at Races with minimal nutrition? I say this as generally water is meh in terms of your performance.
Nutritionally I think the food / fuel went well too...It sounds as though you might agree.
I think your form was good as your LSS from Stryd was consistent. Next level is yes, more running. Necessarily hard running, mind you, but building up to a really good consistent running baseline. This is where the durability comes in. If we can get you running 25 to 35 miles a week with minimal residual issues, I don't know but 8:45 to 9 minute per mile pace, running something like your race will feel super easy. That additional training is really the foundation for your future performance. To put it another way, you ran the best possible scenario this time around based on your fitness, experience and run volume. See my notes on Durability for this.
As for the bike helping you, yes re run in a triathlon. Not so much the open running...but I agree that INSCYD shows us your fitness baseline, which is all rounder. Making your more endurance based is just a game of time. Showing up, staying healthy, and loving the process.
Enjoy that recovery! And yes, recover in Zwift too!!!
~ Patrick
Thanks @Coach Patrick
i took it easy last week, no runs but long daily walks and Zwift (easy all week except Dial it up to 11 and CnC yesterday with only first lap going hard on the crush part, second lap was easy). I weighed myself this morning (i had given myself a week off the scale last week to also clear my mind from nutrition discipline) and was back at 165, my weight on race day. So 2021 is kicking off today 11/9.
I have loaded FS and TP until JOS and it's based of a combo of Run durability and the BBC workouts. Below is a screenshot of the first week (it changes a bit once RD 3 kicks in and there are two 2x1m sessions per week).
Two questions. Is the EN Dial up to 11 comparable to the Coffee Ride? i think so but wanted to check with you.
Above is how i've structured the next 8 weeks (based on Run Durability 2 for 4 weeks then RD 3 for another 4 weeks, and BBC phase 2 for 6 weeks). That will give me one week of rest before JOS. Does this make sense to you or what would you change? i tried to combine the BBC workouts, add one Zwift WRL race on Tuesdays, give myself a day off (Wednesday), keep the tempo / FTP ride (Coffee Ride which I think the EN Dial up to 11 can replace) and the CnC (knowing that if I'm tired i'll take it easier on the crush parts, in that case it becomes a recovery ride). The Friday FatMax would probably be between 90 minutes and 120 minutes and i see it more like an easier / recovery longer ride.
At some point if i feel stronger i want to give Hang On another shot, either as a replacement for Dial it up to 11 or a complement but that will be later in November or December.
I've loaded RD 2 and RD3 in FinalSurge but i prefer to use TrainingPeaks so i also loaded the wkos there.
Thanks
Vincent
@Vincent Sivirine - Great detail here. I can see why success finds you so easily. I think overall the basic structure is good but I am a little concerned about how things play out. Specifically I think the Sunday Monday Tuesday combination will eventually be pretty tiring. After all, the Tuesday race is all out, That Monday bike workout is going to be beefy, and there's nothing easy about cruise and crush.
Let's try it for a week and see how it works. My recommendations to ensure success are as follows: make sure Sunday's cruise and crush ride is no more than 90 minutes and that you run off of it very easily. The Monday V02 session has to be in the morning, 24 hours after your Sunday ride. Then you have the Tuesday night race. That gives you 24 and then 36 hours of rest.
IOW, let's be really really strict about total bike time the first two weeks..main set / work done...no bonus stuff. As you adapt.
Deal?
~ Coach Patrick
Edited on 11/16 after a totally failed Vo2 long workout...
Edited again on 11/17after a semi failed Vo2 long workout (4.1, same as yesterday)
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I should have listened to you better @Coach Patrick. Last week was 783 TSS, 7 hours on the bike and 4 hours on the run. Yesterday (Sunday) CnC i went hard on the hills but did not really go hard on the sprints, more like i was the lead out for others. I actually went running before CnC but i could have run afterwards with no issues.
This morning (Monday 11/16) i sucked and did not even try the first interval, my legs were heavy and i simply did not have it, so i stopped and went for a 45 mn run which was awesome. Clearly as we say in French "my eyes were bigger than my stomach" in terms of hard bike volume. So i'll drop the Tuesday race when it is a TTT (like tomorrow) and will do Vo2 long workout, and will do the race when it's a solo race (and will do Vo2 long wko later in the week)
So you're okay with swapping Coffee ride for Dial it up to 11? i think they are similar but wanted your confirmation. Also i can't find the Cofveve coffee ride anymore, what if i did the KISS race on Thursdays at 6am, is that a good one that fits what i have to do? so my week would look like this: Tuesday VO2 long wko, Thursday Kiss race or if not VO2 short like Crit City? Saturday Dial it up to 11, Sunday CnC and probably a 60' FATMAX on Friday.
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11/17 - had trainer issues (power was erratic even in ERG mode and i felt i was pushing more than the prescribed 320-330w). I was able to do the first three but not the next 3. I will try again next week. As a guideline when you fail a workout you should do it instead of progressing to the next one, correct?
So my conclusion of the week is that i need to have a super light Monday and the most important wko of the week is this Vo2 long on Tuesday morning. Still not clear why i'm struggling so much at 4 minutes at 330w.. i guess i'm better at Vo2 short than Vo2 long.. more work required. I signed up for the Inscyd retest and i think i will do it late December after i focus on all these upcoming bike wkos.
Hi @Coach Patrick
I rearranged my week to ensure i had the Vo2long Tuesday wko, a hard tempo ride (Team TT on Thursday), Dial it up to 11 on Saturday and a hard CnC this morning which was good. I also added a super easy recovery 40' ride (just the grey color on Zwift) after the harder run workout.
On the run side i have loaded run durability so i have a 2x2km on Wednesday, a 45 mns hilly run and short 30' runs with strides sprinkled over the week( 5-6 runs total per week). I'll swim on Mondays and Fridays as recovery (mostly drills) and i think the week is well balanced like this. Around 800 TSS, 6 hours bike, 4 hours run until two weeks before JOS where i'll take it easy for two weeks and then JOS.
My plan before (the one i shared with you) was too challenging, i failed the Vo2 long wko and was too tired. So i adjusted.
I'm also trying to stay on top of body comp (i've gained two pounds and am sitting at 165-166, that's the maximum i'm allowing through the holiday season) and am trying to do some strength sessions but it's hard to find motivation for these.
I'll keep monitoring my week by how i do 1/ the Vo2 long Tuesday wko, 2/ the 2x2km run (this week's went super well, i ran faster than ever and easy) and 3/ the hills interval on the CnC ride. As long as these are good i'll be happy.
Finally i also decided that i will try to run outside as much as possible weather permitting of course. I realized that to avoid my body and legs breaking down during the marathon i need to increase run frequency and also run more outside to make my legs more resilient. I ran a lot on the TM last year but the pace on Zwift is i think incorrect (a bit too fast) and more importantly you run on a very soft surface, so it's good but at the same time not so good in terms of building strength in the legs.
Anything you would change or are you okay with the above?
Thanks
Vincent
@Vincent Sivirine - all of that sounds great! I'm not sure if your superpower is how smart you are, or how flexible you are with changing the plans that she put into place. I've met plenty of smart athletes, but once you put them on a specific path of changing is the equivalent to sawing their own arm off! 😱
This edit seems great. Don't worry too much about the body comp..stay smart. It's pretty typical to see after we pick and complete an event. The body itself needs to "rebound" a little bit. As long as your follow in the right process, things will normalize I promise.
I love the idea of you running outside as much as possible. As the conditions were awesome, don't worry too much about the speed numbers. Maybe you save those days for the treadmill or replace running super fast with finding an incline to challenge you at a slower speed...Dimension, it's not about how fast you can run on Wednesdays that matters, is that overall run frequency as we complete across an entire block.
Looking forward to your feedback this week!
~ Coach P
Hi @Coach Patrick
The week went well with the adjusted schedule. ~ 850 TSS with an added short Vo2 long session (30' only) before the Saturday Dial it to 11 ride and a short Vo2 Crit City one before Sunday CnC. Weekends are heavy but i like the rhythm of easy Monday, three heavier days, easy Friday, two heavy days. I also bought the Normatec boots so recovery here i come!
i realized that i've been technically failing all my Vo2 long workouts, ie being unable to do them at the prescribed power (125% = 330w) and / or having to stop during the last interval(s). So i decided to start from scratch again and did the 1.0 (3x 3'/3') before the Dial up to 11 on Saturday. i passed but that is not easy at 330w.
Unless you disagree, i was thinking i will swallow my ego and continue from the start (next one next Tuesday would be 2.1, then 2.2 next Saturday etc..instead of the 4.1 that i was only able to finish but at 10 watts lower than prescribed 125%. Two workouts a week , if i fail one i will repeat until i pass. Zwift Racing is good and fun but did not really made me work hard enough on Vo2 long apparently. I really want to make a push for Vo2 in December before Incsyd re-testing late December / early January.
Run is going well (6 runs this week, all outside), i really like the longer 70' run at BAA TRP. I do it at a local track (unfortunately not a soft surface but asphalt) to ensure i can control the pace on a flat terrain.
Question on JOS, will i go for the run focus or bike focus plan? last year i did bike focus; what do you recommend?
Thanks
Vincent
@Vincent Sivirine - thanks for the check-in. I agree that the weekends are heavy, but I think that the Monday Friday lighter days, on a repeated cycle, will allow you space to adapt and to continue to see improvement. The stacking of those lighter days is just as important as the stacking of the work on the heavier days. Look forward to hearing how this progression works for you.
Glad that you said "technically" failing, as I wouldn't say that what you did was a failure in anyway. But I do like your disciplined approach. There's nothing wrong with taking a step back and then rebuilding the process. This is as much a fitness problem to solve as it is a mental focus problem. Restarting gives you the chance to achieve both facets and then ideally sustain them as the intervals come.
I mentioned this the other day to @Rory Gumina But it bears repeating here as well: it's very difficult to complete video too long sessions on the weekend. It's possible that, with an easier Friday, you will have more success. But it is something to keep an eye on should you find yourself unable to do the watts you want.
The run consistency looks good! So too does the swimming...note if you Find yourself additionally fatigued at the start of the week or the end, the first thing to go is that swim session. You can stay home and do some bodyweight exercises as a minimal effect of those allowing you to hopefully get a bit more rest. Again, something just to file away.
Have a great week!
~ Coach Patrick