iBike?
I am new to PM and don't think I can swing the $$ for a PM this year. I was looking online though and saw a iBike advertised for less than $1000. I don't really know if it is equivalent to a PM or if it would even be worth the $. Should I just wait until I can afford a 'real' PM.
Any input would be appreciated.
0
Comments
I'm very happy with my Powertap that I bought used on eBay.
tom
I've been riding with iBike since the first generation came out 3+ years ago. I'll share my personal observations on IBike with the following caveats. The only other power meter system I have experience with is my CompuTrainer, so this is in no way a comparison betwen alternatives for use on the road. And I have not really been focused (until I joined EN 5 months ago) on using a PM as a race day tool, or even as a useful training tool. But here goes anyway, as I have a real love/hate relationship with the system. Oh, and I also have TWO iBikes, the earliest model and the most recent one, a Gen III iAero.
I asume you know the theory: throw as many of the "opposing forces" to forward motion as you can measure into an equation, and calcualte power. The forces measured include wind, angle of ascent, speed, cadence, biker and bike weights, temperature, elevation (higher altitude means less air to push against!). These are continuously measured, and the iBike can be set to record and calculate either every second, or every five seconds. There is also a heart rate monitoring function, but I don't think that data goes into the power calculation.
So the first advantage is that there is a lot of real time data apart from power available at the push of a button: HR, speed, cadence, elevation, "tilt" (angle of ascent or descent), temperature, wind speed (expressed both with and without bike speed thrown in) and all the usual bke computer functions - total time, total distance, averge speed, max speed, etc. If you just bought the lowest priced iBike, if nothing else, you'd have a very high end bike computer, at $200. But the first really useful power meter from them now costs $519 msrp, with other models going up to $800. I'll assume that you want the most expensive one, which has the most features, as that is the one I also have been using for the past triathlon season.
My love/hate feelings stem from the fact that the software and the device firmware have been continuously upgraded over the years, and it's only been with the most recent upgrade, which started end of August and has just now (early November) become stable. So I experienced many bugs and inconsistencies which have only very recently been fixed.
Here's what I see as reasons to consider pruchasing it. It is ANT + compatible, meaning if you ever do buy another power meter, like a Power Tap, a Quarg, or a Metrigear (vapor ware at present), you can use the iBike as the receiving device. Also, the info will can be received by other ANT + devices, such as Garmin 310 XT. The software is available for both Mac and PC (I have an Intel Mac, and so have used both versions), and is very easy to use. Downloading the data to a computer, while not wireless, is nonetheless painless, and once in the computer, very easy to play with. The data can be directly loaded into TrainingPeaks WKO, or transferred as a file from the iBike software. Because of the barometric data, elevation profiles can be produced and printed. The data can be adjusted after the fact with alternative settings for friction, aderodynamics, etc, to fine tune the power calculations.
Here are some more important positives: the display can show REAL TIME Normalized Power and TSS while you are riding - that is, the normalized power or TSS to that point in time for you current ride. This is because one of the set-up features allows you to enter you FTP into the system. It also shows average power in real time, but I don't know how useful that is. It can be used as the headset for a number of indoor trainers, convertng your $300 trainer into a poor man's Computrainer. There is a programmable interval feature for those hard days we get every Tuesday in EN.
So it sounds great. The only feature one could imagine being added is GPS. So how does it work in real life?
With each new version of the firmware, the set up procedure has been simplified. While there is a complicated calibration process involving a 4 mile set up ride and a series of slow-downs from 20 mph to dial in the exact areo picture of a specific bike/rider combo, the newest version offers some standard assumed values for things like CDA, Crr (Don't ask me what thein the power calculation the use of time trial position. Because using these pre-set calibration figures offers me a stable , "close-enough" power measure, I have started using them. Once I did, my reported FTP shot up from about 230 to about 266, but the more important thing is that I was able to finally have a stable measurement and reporting system. It is still critical in the set up to have the correct wheel size, an exact rider weight and total weight, and do a tilt calibration.
While I'm riding, the power reading lags by about 2-10 seconds, but there is a real time "power bar" which shows the most recent calculation (so within 1 second or five seconds, depending on which you use). At one second, a 112 mile 5.5 hour ride will fill up about 50% of the headset's capacity, so it works just fine for our purposes to use 1 second. The power numbers will jump about, but looking at NP periodically is helpful, along with just mentally dialing in the range of variation. My most recent race, at IM AZ, I was able to use to power readings to keep myself appropriately reined in. This was demonstrated on this three lap course by seeing that the big tailwind we had coming downhill on the first lap allowed me to go a total of five minutes faster than the last lap, without a significant increase in energy expenditure. Also, heart rate, elevation, hill angle, temperature, etc are all amusing diversions during a long ride. And seeing the actual wind I am riding with or against is really a trip. E.G., I can set it to show the total wind I am facing, that is a 5 mph headwind plus 20 mph speed will read as a 25 mph wind. Or, I can set it to show the real wind, so I would see + 5 mph. This also shows as a negative number when I have a tailwind. Remember, we're not talking about the wind as measured at by the weather service, we're talking about the wind speed my bike is feeling. So as side wind of 20 mph will be felt as a headwind of somewhat less.
What are the downsides? The thing is real finicky. Unless I'm doing an uninterrupted ride, I run into trouble. Stopping for more than a minute or three seems to confuse the system; more than five minutes requires it to be woken up again, and until the most recent firmware upgrade (4.04), this process was buggy. The set up process, even after years of use, still does not seem to be intuitive, partly because they're always changing it.
Placement on the bike is another issue. I have it between by aero extensions, but folks who insist on putting a water bottle there will have to find another spot. There is a Topeak bar extender IBike sells, which can use, but I don't know how easy it might be to see the thing thru the aerobottle! And being bewtween the aero extensions mean the wind recordings are a little suspect (I can change them signficanlty by slight alterations in my hand placement). So iBike as produced (for $50) a flexible extension tube to get the wind readings from a less disturbed spot. BUT I have not been able to get it to work - it keeps falling off, and is not worth the $$ IMO.
Here is a link to a picture for my set up:
http://bikrutz.org/triblog/2009/11/08/
Whic h brings me to my last point: you have to decide which mount you want - for the handlebar or the stem. And, the iBIke mount shoudl really be ROCK SOILD - little jiggles mess up the tilt calcuation something awful.
Gotta go for my Sun AM swim with SO, so no summary to this long winded response. I don have multi-year experience with this, so if you have more ?s, let me know.
I think Al has a fantastic summary of the ibike. I will chim in with a few things as well. I got the iAero gen iii in feb of this year and still have not gotten this thing totally figured out. Like Al said they have had multiple firmware upgrades I think 3 or 4 just this year. It is much easier to set up now then before. The people at iBike are very helpful and they will assist you in anyway possible. I have a powertap as well, I like the NP and tss on the ibike and for all the detractors who say it isn't a powermeter because it is calculating a number off assumed numbers making it more inaccurate with each calculation I guess they are right. However despite that it still comes up with a consistent number very close to the Powertap number if it is set up right. Having said that I have no problems using the powertap but frequently have difficulties with the ibike. In my opinion, and I may be way off here, the people who do well with this device are very good at computer stuff "techy", or don't mind spendning longer getting to know how to use a device. The power tap is pretty much plug and play, the ibike cost me a lot more time, I don't like that. The newest versions of the firmware are supposed to fix that I guess we will have to wait and see.
You can buy a used power tap for less than an ibike. You will be able to use it right away. You will not have to recalibrate the thing when you change clothes. You will be able to use it on the trainer. You will be happier.
Respectfully, iBike does not require calibration when you change clothes. And it can be used on a trainer. I have a season's worth of ride files in all kinds of conditions, with all kinds of gear on 2 different bikes. Each ride shows iBike side by side with my PT. On the vast majority of rides, the two devices are about 3-5% different. On the occasional ride the difference is higher (say 7% or so) but not ever enough to cause a difference in how I ride.
NTG,
No desire to get into this debate again. Anyone who wants to read all about it can do so in the 3.0 forum. If they want and up to date look at the issues people are having with their ibikes they can read the ibike forum. There are only a couple of things that we can agree on regarding this subject, which are:
1. You and I can agree to disagree about it in general;
2. Even after all this time you still have never informed us as to what your relationship is with ibike; and
3. Even though you tell people that an ibike is a great alternative to a power tap you still ride with a powertap.
Regardless, if you want to debate the issue, why not do it HERE. Seems like an excellent oppurtunity to dispel the myths surrounding ibike, no?
I thought the previous poster did a great job of summarizing the negatives and the positives of the iBike.
My relationship with iBike is completely informal. When asked, I ocassionally beta test firmware for them. Not currently in any kind of "relationship" with iBike. I happen to know the CEO of the company because of my proximity to the factory. As such, I made several suggestions to improve their firmware and improve operations specifically aimed at triathletes. However, from that perspective, other iBike customers who have posted suggestions to their iBike forum have made suggestions that have also resulted in firmware changes mods etc. I guess you are implying that I am somehow motivated to sell iBikes or something. Please let me dispel that rumor myth whatever.
I ride with a PowerTap for two reasons: to ENHANCE what the iBike does and to provide side by side comparison data to help improve the iBike's functionality (I've explained this before but will explain again). WHen using any DFPM in conjuntion with an iBike, I get real time drag coefficient data. When used in a controlled scientific manner, I can get really good data when testing a piece of new equipment or a new bike position. I can see a change based on actual numbers and data (rather than a guess) how something affects my drag coefficient. WIthout a DFPM, the iBike can only provides this CdA data when coasting (not as effective).
I'm still unsure as to your vehemence against the iBike. The initial iBikes were not that great. No doubt about it. The current generation of iBikes have improved exponentially in terms of both hardware and firmware. The features that it has are far and away better than any other production power meter on the market today. IT HAS ITS QUIRKS AND ISSUES just like every other piece of equipment. If it's not for you...I'll never try to convince someone of that. I think that if you are posting information about a product however, it should be based on current knowledge of the product; it's costs and capabilities. Not sure how you as someone who doesn't use one can claim to have a good working knowledge of the current design/function of iBikes but whatever. You'll never see me posting info (unless VERY general) about SRM or Quarq because....I have no idea. I use an iBike and a PT and so I know a good deal about how well they work or don't work.
So Chris, we can agree to disagree. No problem with that. Like politics, I never try to sway someone who is very highly opinionated, it's a waste of my time and energy and serves no useful purpose. I just ask (again respectfully) that you might consider tempering your comments about how well the iBike functions (or doesn't) considering your actual experience with the newest product line and the newest iBike software and firmware.
As a side note, the iBike software is FREE and can be downloaded from their website. Once someone has done that, I can send you months of ride files that show iBike stacked up side by side with PowerTap data. Once you see that, it's kinda hard to make claims like "iBike doesn't really work".
Again, no offense taken and I hope none taken on your end. I have repeatedly said on these forums that I don't think it really matters which PM someone uses, but there is no doubt that the use of a PM is the best way to improving bike times. And it's my opinion that an iBike is a good value for what you get...again, my opinion.
Cheers.
I've been using an iBike on my road bike and by TT bike since last Dec/Jan time frame.
iBike takes more time to initially set up. However, recent firmware changes have made the setup process much easier and much more reliable. iBike must be initially calibrated to see what you "look" like aerodynamically when you are on your bike. Once this profile is built, it measures all the resistive forces opposing a rider displaying that as power. The initial setup only needs to be done once. Of course, if you make a major equipment or position change, it's a very good idea to recalibrate the unit. All that is required to calibrate an iBike these days is a two mile, out and back ride. It works best on a smooth road with little to no traffic, but not a requirement.
iBike has a "Remote Wind Sensor" basically, a flexible line that can be routed wherever you want to move the wind sensing port say, underneath your aerobars (that is where mine is mounted) . The iBike is mounted on the stem with the RWS mounted underneath my right aero base bar. Works great. On my road bike, the iBike is mounted same spot with no RWS needed. Here's a link to the setup on my bike. www.facebook.com/album.php
One thing I like about the iBike is the data that is displayed. Al touched on the high points: I like NP TSS IF real time at my fingertips. I like knowing the winds and temp. Plus all the usual cyclocomputer data (speed, dist, pace, HR, cals etc). iBike ia ANT+ compliant. Do you have a Garmin Speed/Cadence sensor? It will work with an iBike. Garmin HR strap? Works with iBike. ANT+ PowerTap? Works with iBike.
If you don't have the patience to take a few minutes and read the instructions on how to set the device up, iBike probably isn't for you. If you want to spend less $$ and get good reliable power data, you may wish to consider looking into iBike as a way to ride with power without breaking the bank. An iBike iPro (wired) is $429. Wireless is $698. An extra mount is $269 (I think). So $967 for a wireless iBike and two bike mounts. PowerTap Pro $1200. PowerTap SL+$1600 (not counting wheelset).
One other thing: even iBike detractors can't find fault with their customer service. It was at my request on the iBike forum that I asked for them to incorporate TSS IF and NP into a disply while riding. They made a firmware change 1.5 months later! They are always looking for ways to improve their product (hence the slew of FW updates lately). They are responsive to customer needs unlike other companies that mean well but just have too much other stuff going on to help you out one on one. Something else to think about.
Sport is nice if you want to see power while riding. Big limitation is that there's no downloading the ride into WKO, etc.
OTOH, one can upgrade the sport later, on one's own dime, instead of on one's parents' dime...
Mike
That sounds good. I think we will get that. I was looking at the Kinetic model that is about $139 and then getting her some sort of climbing thing since she plans on climbing Devil's Tower this summer but the IBike would be better since you can use it "off trainer." Yeah Mike, I'm not descending to that level of insanity by getting her a $1,000 training device. We still have graduation and the party and all that. She could argue that since she is most likely going into the Coast Guard we are saving all that tuition money but if she doesn't ever go to the Academy I assume we will be paying tuition at some point. Thanks for the feedback...I think I'll order one this weekend. I'll probably have questions for those that use it on here...I'll PM ya...
Alright...so, let me chime in with a new question along these lines:
I am going to get a power tap...but, there are multiple models. Assuming I wanted real time power readings, and probably the ability to analyze the readings afterwards (because I guess that's what we do here at EN, right?), which model do I need?
I see that there are a range of models and prices...for instance, there is the Power Tap Comp, which appears to me to be simply a wired version of the Elite. Is that right?
I guess my question is, what do I NEED and what is really 'window dressing' in this power meter device?
Thanks for the input!
Ok back to the ibike here. I think I am about to win a bid on ebay for an iAero, but it does not come with the speed and cadence sensors. I have a Suunto watch and was considering getting the sensors from them (at $60 each), but they got very poor reviews online (mostly not staying on the bike or being mounted on the fork easily). I can also get the sensors from iBike at $30 each.
Any input/suggestions? Thanks!
I wonder whether the Sunto sensors are campatible; those iBike sensors are not passive, they are wireless, sending a radio signal up to the iBike head unit. I would be suspicious the Suuntos would work with the iAero unless you have personally seen them in action somewhere. I'd vote for iBike sensors, as I know they work.
I mount both my cadence and speed sensors on the left chainstay, together with one set of zip ties. (See pic below)
Ok so then my 'only' concern is that I won't be able to fit them on my bike. All of my lines are FAT. See pic.
Thanks.
I think you may just need longer zip ties. The sensors have soft rubber fittings with a gentle curve, should fit over the top of something near the wheel and crank.
I doubt the Suunto is compatable. At the least you would have to buy the firmware from ibike to use them if they even have it. For instance, I use the garmin speed cadence sensor for my iAero, but had to purchase the firmware for about 50 bucks from ibike. Your cheapest option is probably to just buy the sensors from ibike. I thought they were like 60.00 a piece. If they are 30.00 now that is good.
I've been using SRM for years and I think it is the best option for multi sport athletes for the following reasons:
1. Independent of wheel means one device for trainings & racing
2. It takes me less than 5 minutes to switch between Road and Tri bikes
3. very easy to calibrate
4. works on the trainer/rollers
there are a few disadvantages, the biggest one is price but if you can get a used amature version, then it's not so bad,,,
Can the isport model get done what we need to here at EN? Its cheap. I can swing that now and still give the IRS their money for the year.
Paul,
I am new to power and EN so maybe I shouldn't answer this but I have been using the wireless version of the iSport.
I picked up the GT version so I can use it with my Garmin 310XT and I use Garmin Connect. There is a built in fitness test - I am not sure how that correlates to FTP but I have also gone out and done 40' or hour long rides and the iSport will give me my average power, normalized power, TSS and IF.
I spent $310 for the iSport GT wireless and another $49 for a Garmin GSC 10 Speed/Cadence Sensor (since this does not come with the wireless GT setup). Obviously you can't download to WKO+ (I don't have a PC anyway) with the iSport - but for $269 you could upgrade to iPro when it suits your budget (maybe after a tax refund?)
Hope this helps - I may not be the person to comment on this - but after a few days of set up frustration with the iSport - I love it. And I think it can at least improve the fine tuning of your workouts more accurately than HR.
Tom
Paul, see my post about halfway down this thread, between Sheryl and Steve.
Mike
Paul - the new iSport (Gen III) will show Normalized Power for an outdoor ride, which is the minimum you need to use power while racing. You could also do the 2 x 20 (2') FTP test with it, by restarting just before the test, and then reading the NP at the end of the test. If all your OS riding is outside, no problems; but you won't have any power data from indoor trainer rides, unless you already have power readings on your trainer. It's certainly better than nothing, and provides a lot of other interesting/useful info as well, like elevation, grade, temperature, wind speed.
The upgrade for $249 referred to above is basically software, plus a cable to connect the iBike to a computer (either Mac or Windows). The analysis software is fairly sophisticated, and provides everything you see people referring to in EN.
So the ibike software that you down;olad for free will allow me the ability to analyze and set my training watts the way we do here at EN?
I can probably swing a PT so a few more questions coming as the pop into my head. This is my focus through Sunday since I am waiting out an injury. I'm just weighing the benefits of $1300 PT v. $800 ibike. I'm still getting consistent data from either PM but do I really need to fork over another $500 for PT?
All input is appreciated.
Another thing to consider. If you do a lot of trainer rides, remember that your trainer #'s are based off of the published power curve, whereas outside #'s will be based off of the resistances encountered. Those two may not always yield the same # for the same perceived effort. I have always felt much better knowing that, for X pounds of force on the pedal, at Y RPM's, the PowerTap will show Z watts, every time. I'm skeptical about the reproducibility of inside watts to outside watts with the iBike. YMMV.
And, if you're willing to go a year old, you should be able to find a PT for less than list, especially at this time of year.
Mike
Paul - Initially, you said you were thinking of the iSport model, which is only $200; the iPro or aero is a different price point. I have used an iBike ever since they first came out, and do not feel it is reliable enough (even my iAero version with the latest firmware) for use following EN protocols. I will be buying a PowerTap hub next week, Elite wireless, for about $850 I hope, and use the iBike as the head unit (on board bike computer) as it is Ant + compatible. As a long time iBike user AND one who is now following EN protocols and philosophy for using power in training and racing, I do not feel my iAero is up to the task. It's just too finicky.
If money is a big issue (i.e., you can't spend more than $200), then the iSport is better than nothing. But if you're willing to spend $800, you should be able to find a usable PowerTap which should be much easier to deal with.
After both of your replies, I am biting the bullet and getting the PT Elite +. The information from you guys has gotten me to this point.
Thanks