@ Brenda - congrats on reaffirming your VDot. Me, I haven't done mine yet... may wait till the final week.
@ Carrie - What a terrible thing to witness. Glad she is OK. I imagine it will be a long while before the video in your head stops looping... I have had an experience like that - I watched the event happen right in from of me and fortunatly it was fine in the end. But in my mind's eye, I visualized my friend sliding over the edge of a 80' vertical crag and I watched the trees shake as she went thru the branches...... In reality my friend somehow ended up sliding onto a 1' ledge with her feet dangiling over..... I still see the 'bad' version to this day.... some 33 years later..... and it still makes me shudder.
I had to take a unplanned day off to prepare camp food for my 5 day, 65 mile ski tour. My friend found a way to get 3 days of food dropped at mile 35 but I need to get it to him tomorrow. Its all good, miles are piling up and I still have my Friday swim to keep me busy.....
@ Steve and Carrie - thank you so much for your kind words.
@ Carrie - OMGosh. I can only imagine how frightened you were when you saw this going down. Send your friend healing thoughts. I hope she still is going to go to the doctor to get checked out. Its always a good thing.
@Carrie, so glad to hear your friend is okay...that is supa scary!
@Everyone, it's official that my Boston training is hurting my OS mojo right now. My hammies are super tight and even basic FTP work seems like a stretch. I am fully enjoying my day off today (Friday) then prepping for a true sufferfest tomorrow during a 15k indoor TT hosted by Team Psycho. Last year I held like 330 watts...so I have to up my game this go 'round!
@ Carrie - Glad to hear that the accident was relatively minor. Those things happen so fast that there's often little you can do but keep your wits about you when it happens.
@ Coach P - You're a victim of your own punishment . Then again, misery loves company, so I'm glad you're taking the ride with us.
My runs this week have been quite typical. I pushed my tough saturday bike intervals into yesterday's workout, so I'm looking forward to a good long run this weekend. Hopefully the weather will cooperate enough to clear me some space outside of the lanes of traffic.
Since we're on the subject of Boston, I was jazzed to get a blog feature for my charity fundraising today. I hate to shamelessly plug myself, but the charity is a big part of my sporting and non-sporting endeavors.
Saw physio today to discuss the L3/L4 impingement issue and about how frustrated I am. Treatments had been working, but we started working on my shoulder in anticipation of swimming (great results in 3 sessions), so we are going back to the leg issue. He assures me that I will not be going to him forever (had to make it clear that I am not a sponsored athlete who can afford a PT on retainer). I will keep you all posted.
Since I was testing this week I have had three rest days, so tomorrow I will attempt Thur bike ride with new Z4 (yikes) and hope it does not affect my long 26km run with hills on Sunday.
@Brenda, stay focused...you are doing all the right things!
I made my way through the TT but was tired heading into todays scheduled 16 miler. Met som buds (thank GAWD!) and got 15.5 done in 1:50 with some good tempo at the end. Not the hack per se, but still a great solid run. Hoping this week's thaws make running outdoors more feasible! Good luck everyone!
PHEW!! 20 miler done BEFORE 8am!! Now I am at work and my legs are barking.
Ran alone at O dark 30, head lamp on, music( which I NEVER run with) and off I went starting at 5:10am. Yikes!
Finished 20 miles exactly in 2:38, 7:56 pace on a hilly course. Got back to the house and garmin said 19.6...DOH, I had to run up and down the street. I WANTED MY 20!!!
Last 6 miles at or around MP. I just want to say for the record... 26 miles will be hard to do on April 18th. I am skeered!
@Carrie. That's awesome to be done for the day but hate to hear you have to be at work now. Not ideal recovery you wanted I'm sure. Sounds like you have little to worry about in Beantown. Your training sounds very strong!
Quick question for the group. Tell me if it belongs elsewhere though.
I started JOS and just joined EN on 1/1/11 so I started hack on 1/3 and so I only have 15 weeks to do the 16 week hack. I started at week 1 and am now through week 6 but wondering which week to skip or modify. Any suggestions? Bueller? Bueller?
As an aside, I'd taken some time off after Clearwater trying to rest and heal up my PF I've had chronically since Boston 2010 so I was not in my usual state of fitness (run or other) when I started JOS/hack and I've been pretty trashed adapting to the load. I feel bike fitness is improving but run legs are quite heavy so I don't want to skip a "recovery" run week in hack as I feel I need to absorb some of the work in the hack runs. I ran a 5K on 12/26 and did my Vdot test at another 5K race on 1/29 and both were 30+ sec/mi of my usual 5k pace. First race was probably poor fitness from time off and second poor effort felt like extreme fatigue and heavy legs from the hack. For reference a typical average fitness 5K is high 18's and good fitness is mid to low 18's. Both recent tests were over 20 minutes. Haven't run over a 20 since I took up running in 2000. Boston 2010 was my 2nd open marathon (6x IM) and I ran 3:07 but bonked last 8 miles after mismanaging nutrition.
Getting anxious about running 26.2 in 2 months! That said, this time is purely for the Boston experience and not to beat last year's time. I wouldn't be running a Mary in an IM year except my wife qualified in 2009 but got shut out last year so I'm going with her and would make a very poor spectator. I only need a 3:30 to requalify which would make a nice round # to aim for this year.
My FTP is climbing but run progress seems stalled. Should I back off on Thursday's bike intervals as my w/kg is already over 4.0? This might allow me some recovery for the hack runs. My PF is improving and I'm treating it aggressively but still not 100%.
I'd love some advice from the Boston group or any WSM's! I'm new to EN so am hoping the Boston group is the right place to ask these questions. Tell me if it belongs elsewhere. Hoping to meet some of you guys in Boston before the race. I'm staying at John Jeffries house w/ my wife. Another friend from NC is also staying at same place and is a former EN member (on hold at present).
Thanks in advance for any helpful hints/advice! Jeff
@ Patrick - thank you for your words of encouragement.
@ Carrie - that is a sick pace you are a running girlfriend. Keep up the good work and I doubt you will have any problems running 26.2 in bean town with the work you are putting in. Bring some warm clothes, because I expect you to be waiting for me at the finish line (not really, but just a suggestion) and it looks like I might be an hour behind you.
@ Jeff - I was okay with the marathon hack until we started 6 weeks ago with the VO2 max stuff. My legs just could not handle the Sat bike (which is where I want to improve this year, so I do not want to modify them) and the run intervals in my long run, so I discussed it on the Live Chat with Coach P and he said that since I am only running Boston for the experience (could care less if I qualify again) that it would be okay if I just ran the distance at a comfortable pace as long as I kept all the other workouts in as is ( I asked him this and he okayed it. He did not make this suggestion). I have been doing that and thank goodness I have, because just running the distance is enough for me. If I went out thinking that I had to hit the intervals I probably would find an excuse not to. I do however add hills in at the last 3rd of the run so I can feel what it is like to run them when tired. Todays run was a 16 miler with some pretty crappy footing. Managed to run 30sec faster per mile than LP pace, but was not at MP pace, which I think I could of held if the footing was better (snowy, icy, windy). I think you are right that taking your recovery weeks is important. If it were me, I would dump one of the VO2 runs off the schedule, but again might want to ask Coach P on live chat (think it is usually Monday nights with him).
@ Brenda/Jeff - For those of us on an IM track (not really shooting for a PR at Boston) a lot of the "work" built into the longer runs is targeting performance and not necessarily overall endurance. In other words, wedging those threshold intervals into your 16-miler is like spreading icing on the cake. Ultimately, time on your legs will give you the strength to finish. The "work" intervals will give you the ability to finish stronger and/or faster. The OS bike is no joke - even for those that are on the regular OS run plan.
So, on the subject of how to handle the runs and where to integrate rest, I guess the best advice I can offer is to fit them both in whenever and wherever you can. Sometimes recovery is as simple as dodging one interval set, and other times it requires one or more days off your feet. Three solid runs per week (i.e. non-brick runs) is less-than-ideal for typical folks in marathon prep - but we don't exactly fall into the category of "typical." Also keep in mind that you're getting a lot of aerobic conditioning from the bike workouts as well (though many debate the actual overlap between the two).
I started the hack about 2 weeks into January. I had been logging roughly 40-60 miles per week heading into mid-December, so I just picked up on the hack at whatever week put week 16 just ahead of Boston. Honestly, I read through the hack workouts a couple of times, got a feel for the program, and now I really just wing it on a day-to-day basis. In my experience, distance running is an activity that cannot be forced. Yes, you have to commit to it, but in most cases you simply have to accept what it gives you. To do otherwise is to risk unnecessary damage. I'm semi-fortunate in that running really has little impact on my cycling - but the opposite is far from true. It's smart to exercise some liberty with the hack runs if crushing out a PR in April is not your seasonal goal. Let the plan be your guide, but let your body make the decisions.
@ Jeff - I think Justin really nailed it. The OS bike really is serious do-do and I have had to bail on several of the VO2 sets to hold down the fatigue so I can get my run time in. But truth be told, I'm not following the Run Hack. Now that my calf has come back to normal (sort of), I'll be falling back to the run plans Ive been working with the past few years.
Key workouts are a mid-distance tempo (run as negative split), long run (pace depends on fatigue and the day but always shoot for negative split), speed work of hill repeats or Yasso 800's (sometimes 1600's), and the 4th run is 6 to 8 miles at moderate pace. I like to get 3 20's in, sometimes I'll go 22+ but that requires a deeper base than I can get during the OS.
If you are suffering from fatigue and can't get good quality runs in, you are much better off if you skip something - shorten a workout or skip one althogether so you are in better shape for your next effort. Recovery IS an important workout too.
Me - today I ran outside. temps in the mid 20's but the wind shifted so it was into the wind both ways. 18 miles total, 2:42 @ 9:01. Wasnt concerned about pace today. Was all about time on my feet and hitting my first 18 this season. Felt good, no compression on the calf and no issues there - glad for that. The biggest bummer was Garmin threw an error on download so I have no data from todays run..... GGGGRRRRRRRRR! that is the 3rd time losing data. The first 2 were both races!
@ Carrie - what are YOU worried about? I'm thinking you are going to be on or near the podium! Well, maybe that might make me nervous too.... but I don't expect that will ever happen to me.... just sayin.....
Great thread, love the Idea of having so many EN peeps running Boston!
Steve, really happy to hear that our calf is doing well and that your run today was a good one. I have run upwards to 37km in my long run, but not this time. I will be running 2 x 20miles as my longest. Hope it is enough.
@Brenda No problem. I've seen your posts and support of others and I bet you make friends quite easily. I admire how you uplift others!
@Justin Good points made. I've never done this much intensity during longer runs. Have previously followed Pfitzinger's plan w/ max of about 60 miles so this is new territory for me. Appreciate the info!
@Steve Good stuff. Hope the calf continues to improve! I've lost data before on my Garmins. I have a 310 now and I just hold reset button down for 3 sec before I come inside now and that seems to lock in the data in the watch so it is there for downloading. Have not had lost data since I reset PRIOR to the ANT download. Good luck.
I will give this some further thought but am leaning towards cutting down on Thursday bike intervals so I'm a bit fresher for the Fri and Sun runs and focusing on endurance a tad more than the intensity on longest runs to make sure I get some decent distance in next 6 weeks before taper starts!
@ Tim that is great. Keep up the slow build @ Steve it appears "your calf" is "our calf" according to my last post. Really must reread what I type before posting. @ Carrie, hope work was not to hard on you today. @ Justin - getting nervous that I am not doing enough. What are your thoughts on running everyday but keeping the addtional runs short but easy?
Lots of good discussion going on here. I am not following the OS now. But EN is in my blood and I only train hard on the bike. Kind of a sickness. I ride 3 x a week. 2 - 3 hour ish rides with tons of hard stuff and lots of 80-85%. The third ride is a 1 hour traditional EN session unless I am toast then I spin easy and read a magazine( gasp!).
My run program is not the hack. I am following the BAA advanced marathon plan. I am running 45 miles a week. I might hit 50 plus but probably only for a few weeks. I run 4 x a week. Track Tues, Wed brick, Thursday medium long run with tempo, Sunday long run with tempo. Our track intervals are faster than Z4. The tempo thurs is MP. Goal is to practice marathon pace frequently.
My tri's are after Boston. "A" tri is Vineman 70.3 in July. I feel strong and not worried about my FT. I am holding it at 200 and confident I can boost it in May and June.
I have been at this stuff a long time. I am enjoying not focusing on Increasing vdot or FT and building my fitness with the existing numbers.
My legs feel like I did something today,ha! . I scheduled a massage for Wed.
@ Steve- so glad "our " calf is better. Love that B called it that!! 18 miles!! Wow!
@ Justin - getting nervous that I am not doing enough. What are your thoughts on running everyday but keeping the addtional runs short but easy?
Ultimately, you must operate within your means and it sounds as though you're doing exactly that. I can sympathize with your nervousness as I've walked in those shoes more than once. My first ultra last year was 5 weeks after IMLP and I don't think I logged more than 20 mpw leading up to it (my total weekly mileage was less than my scheduled long runs). I ended up finishing fourth and jumped right into my plan the following day. Week in and week out, you're continually building fitness, and that's what counts. Judging by your posts, you're not exactly running fairweather miles either, but some more substantial distances. Stick with the plan and you will have no issues executing "your race" in Boston.
W/regards to everyday running, it has a time and place in every runner's career, and possibly in every runner's season. Hang around a place like slowtwitch long enough and you'll swear that 6x per week running is the greatest discovery since caveman stumbled upon fire. It's great for building fitness and running volume in a safe, progressive manner - namely for those that are new to running or emerging from a layoff or injury. However, there is a lot of credit put into those 3 runs each week where you're essentially running both short and easy (a.k.a. recovery runs). One can argue that time on your feet is time well spent, but that assumes that the alternative is sitting on the couch - certainly not busting out VO2 intervals on the bike. For someone trying to make significant gains on the bike, those recovery runs are likely to present a problem in terms of overall recovery. The effort and duration required for recovery runs means that the ROI is inherently low. Stick with the OS+hack, keep your legs beneath you, and you'll have a good season.
Today, I threw caution to the wind .... and the wind shoved it right back down my throat. While the major symptoms of my stomach bug ended about 48 hours ago, the residual effects were not so quick to dissipate. I was able to throw down a solid 9 miles of treadmill work, with 6 miles of that descending Z2 to Z4. I finished out with a 6:40 average pace (roughly MP) and my legs felt quite strong.
Ironically, it wasn't until I stepped aside to stretch that I realized my body was going to stage a walkout. My post-run stretching is almost exclusively dynamic, so it requires a minor bit of exertion - a minor bit that I couldn't seem to muster up. My legs instantly turned to stone, my back cramped up, and my stomach wound itself into a big knot. I managed to force down 1/2 sandwich and some fluids post-workout, but I'm running a huge calorie deficit from the weekend and it has caught up with me quickly. Needless to say, my workouts over the next few days will take on a frustratingly non-intense, or maybe even non-existent, flavor. I've never been good at riding the bench.
To those in and around the northeastern US, I hope you get a chance to savor some of the unseasonable warmth that's descending upon us!
@ Justin, thank you so much for your post. My gut told me to stick with what I was doing, but my mind was saying something else. Thanks for talking some sense into me. Sorry to hear that after an amazing run your body rebelled today. I hate it when it does that. You are a smart man and it sounds like you have a plan to come back from it. Keep us posted on how you are coming along and keep posting as your feedback is very valuable and appreciated.
Brenda and Jeff- sounds like you both had your questions answered.
@ B- you are progressing just fine. You have always said that your goal was to bump your FT, improve your biking and still train to run Boston. You are exactly doing that. Stick with your plan.
@ Jeff- being tired all the time is a buzz kill. I hope you have figured out the right dose of exercise to improve your run and bike. Sometimes less is more in this case. I tend to improve doing 95% on my bike intervals. Try things out. Drop down on your Thurs bike. See if it helps. We are all self coached and need to figure some stuff out by trial and error.
What do I know? I hate to give advice but I will try to offer things that have worked for me
My legs were tired from the 20 miles Sunday. Not too sore but a little. I rolled them out this morning, put on compression sleeves and off I went to host our track workout.
2 mile warm up, drills
4 x 1 mile @ 10K pace with 400 recovery. I ended up negative splitting them as it was tough to get going. 6:37, 6:30, 6:23, 6:17
1 mile cool down
Overall I feel good. Not crisp but good. No pains anywhere. I am super cautious about aches and pains and fatigue. But I felt good so I did the set. I JUST WANT TO MAKE IT TO THE STARTING LINE IN BOSTON!!!!
Okay, so did the Tue ride yesterday. 2 x 20 at NEW FTP and I rocked it out. Leg were tired, so was not sure how todays run would feel, but I had a good run that involved 4 x 1 mile repeats at Z4 pace. Leg acted up for the first two intervals, but with some stretching between I got it under control and knocked out the last two intervals without any leg issues.
Okay, so did the Tue ride yesterday. 2 x 20 at NEW FTP and I rocked it out. Leg were tired, so was not sure how todays run would feel, but I had a good run that involved 4 x 1 mile repeats at Z4 pace. Leg acted up for the first two intervals, but with some stretching between I got it under control and knocked out the last two intervals without any leg issues.
@Carrie Thx for the helpful adivce. I will start to tweak my workouts based on my fatigue level and particularly the bike FTP efforts. 95 might be a lot better than 101% for being able to get my runs done at proper pace!
@B Great to hear you're rocking your bikes and runs!
On a positive note, got home late and swapped bike and run days. Ran an hour w/ some Z3 work and despite feeling sore and sluggish early, legs responded when I put the hammer down and I ran my paces.
Great workout Steve! Wow! You are BACK and then some!
Today is my day off and every Wednesday I have a play date with Tom Glynn. Others join too sometimes. Today it is raining and windy so we rode indoors to some kick a$$ music and worked HARD for 1:30 ride time. 3 x 12(3') at or near FT varying cadence every 3 minutes. Then we did 3 x 2 min HARD. Just made up this set to keep ourselves busy.
Ended up with 12'- 100%(201W), 12'- 96%( 192W) 12- 90% (180W)- oopps that is negative split in a bad way
then 2x3 min over 200W- ( 210, 217, 217) those were tough.
Then an 8 mile brick. It was so freaking WINDY!! Tom is coming back from his pelvic/acetabular fracture last July! He ran so well. I am enjoying sharing in his comeback. We averaged 8:05 just running easy and steady. He is a stud!
I LOVE MY DAYS OFF WORK!! I could do it professionally!!!!!
Comments
@ Brenda - congrats on reaffirming your VDot. Me, I haven't done mine yet... may wait till the final week.
@ Carrie - What a terrible thing to witness. Glad she is OK. I imagine it will be a long while before the video in your head stops looping... I have had an experience like that - I watched the event happen right in from of me and fortunatly it was fine in the end. But in my mind's eye, I visualized my friend sliding over the edge of a 80' vertical crag and I watched the trees shake as she went thru the branches...... In reality my friend somehow ended up sliding onto a 1' ledge with her feet dangiling over..... I still see the 'bad' version to this day.... some 33 years later..... and it still makes me shudder.
I had to take a unplanned day off to prepare camp food for my 5 day, 65 mile ski tour. My friend found a way to get 3 days of food dropped at mile 35 but I need to get it to him tomorrow. Its all good, miles are piling up and I still have my Friday swim to keep me busy.....
Run Strong.....
@ Carrie - OMGosh. I can only imagine how frightened you were when you saw this going down. Send your friend healing thoughts. I hope she still is going to go to the doctor to get checked out. Its always a good thing.
@Everyone, it's official that my Boston training is hurting my OS mojo right now. My hammies are super tight and even basic FTP work seems like a stretch. I am fully enjoying my day off today (Friday) then prepping for a true sufferfest tomorrow during a 15k indoor TT hosted by Team Psycho. Last year I held like 330 watts...so I have to up my game this go 'round!
@ Carrie - Glad to hear that the accident was relatively minor. Those things happen so fast that there's often little you can do but keep your wits about you when it happens.
@ Coach P - You're a victim of your own punishment
. Then again, misery loves company, so I'm glad you're taking the ride with us.
My runs this week have been quite typical. I pushed my tough saturday bike intervals into yesterday's workout, so I'm looking forward to a good long run this weekend. Hopefully the weather will cooperate enough to clear me some space outside of the lanes of traffic.
Since we're on the subject of Boston, I was jazzed to get a blog feature for my charity fundraising today. I hate to shamelessly plug myself, but the charity is a big part of my sporting and non-sporting endeavors.
blog.backonmyfeet.org/2011/02/11/me...in-weiler/
Happy (and safe) running team!
Since I was testing this week I have had three rest days, so tomorrow I will attempt Thur bike ride with new Z4 (yikes) and hope it does not affect my long 26km run with hills on Sunday.
Happy training everyone. Thanks for your support.
I made my way through the TT but was tired heading into todays scheduled 16 miler. Met som buds (thank GAWD!) and got 15.5 done in 1:50 with some good tempo at the end. Not the hack per se, but still a great solid run. Hoping this week's thaws make running outdoors more feasible! Good luck everyone!
Ran alone at O dark 30, head lamp on, music( which I NEVER run with) and off I went starting at 5:10am. Yikes!
Finished 20 miles exactly in 2:38, 7:56 pace on a hilly course. Got back to the house and garmin said 19.6...DOH, I had to run up and down the street. I WANTED MY 20!!!
Last 6 miles at or around MP. I just want to say for the record... 26 miles will be hard to do on April 18th. I am skeered!
CC
@Carrie. That's awesome to be done for the day but hate to hear you have to be at work now. Not ideal recovery you wanted I'm sure. Sounds like you have little to worry about in Beantown. Your training sounds very strong!
Quick question for the group. Tell me if it belongs elsewhere though.
I started JOS and just joined EN on 1/1/11 so I started hack on 1/3 and so I only have 15 weeks to do the 16 week hack. I started at week 1 and am now through week 6 but wondering which week to skip or modify. Any suggestions? Bueller? Bueller?
As an aside, I'd taken some time off after Clearwater trying to rest and heal up my PF I've had chronically since Boston 2010 so I was not in my usual state of fitness (run or other) when I started JOS/hack and I've been pretty trashed adapting to the load. I feel bike fitness is improving but run legs are quite heavy so I don't want to skip a "recovery" run week in hack as I feel I need to absorb some of the work in the hack runs. I ran a 5K on 12/26 and did my Vdot test at another 5K race on 1/29 and both were 30+ sec/mi of my usual 5k pace. First race was probably poor fitness from time off and second poor effort felt like extreme fatigue and heavy legs from the hack. For reference a typical average fitness 5K is high 18's and good fitness is mid to low 18's. Both recent tests were over 20 minutes. Haven't run over a 20 since I took up running in 2000. Boston 2010 was my 2nd open marathon (6x IM) and I ran 3:07 but bonked last 8 miles after mismanaging nutrition.
Getting anxious about running 26.2 in 2 months! That said, this time is purely for the Boston experience and not to beat last year's time. I wouldn't be running a Mary in an IM year except my wife qualified in 2009 but got shut out last year so I'm going with her and would make a very poor spectator. I only need a 3:30 to requalify which would make a nice round # to aim for this year.
My FTP is climbing but run progress seems stalled. Should I back off on Thursday's bike intervals as my w/kg is already over 4.0? This might allow me some recovery for the hack runs. My PF is improving and I'm treating it aggressively but still not 100%.
I'd love some advice from the Boston group or any WSM's! I'm new to EN so am hoping the Boston group is the right place to ask these questions. Tell me if it belongs elsewhere. Hoping to meet some of you guys in Boston before the race. I'm staying at John Jeffries house w/ my wife. Another friend from NC is also staying at same place and is a former EN member (on hold at present).
Thanks in advance for any helpful hints/advice! Jeff
@ Carrie - that is a sick pace you are a running girlfriend. Keep up the good work and I doubt you will have any problems running 26.2 in bean town with the work you are putting in. Bring some warm clothes, because I expect you to be waiting for me at the finish line (not really, but just a suggestion) and it looks like I might be an hour behind you.
@ Jeff - I was okay with the marathon hack until we started 6 weeks ago with the VO2 max stuff. My legs just could not handle the Sat bike (which is where I want to improve this year, so I do not want to modify them) and the run intervals in my long run, so I discussed it on the Live Chat with Coach P and he said that since I am only running Boston for the experience (could care less if I qualify again) that it would be okay if I just ran the distance at a comfortable pace as long as I kept all the other workouts in as is ( I asked him this and he okayed it. He did not make this suggestion). I have been doing that and thank goodness I have, because just running the distance is enough for me. If I went out thinking that I had to hit the intervals I probably would find an excuse not to. I do however add hills in at the last 3rd of the run so I can feel what it is like to run them when tired. Todays run was a 16 miler with some pretty crappy footing. Managed to run 30sec faster per mile than LP pace, but was not at MP pace, which I think I could of held if the footing was better (snowy, icy, windy). I think you are right that taking your recovery weeks is important. If it were me, I would dump one of the VO2 runs off the schedule, but again might want to ask Coach P on live chat (think it is usually Monday nights with him).
@ Justin/Steve - what say ye?
Thx for the advice B! Will try to check in w/ coach P.
Anybody else out there have any ideas??? I love to hear several opinions and weigh them. Thx.
@ Brenda/Jeff - For those of us on an IM track (not really shooting for a PR at Boston) a lot of the "work" built into the longer runs is targeting performance and not necessarily overall endurance. In other words, wedging those threshold intervals into your 16-miler is like spreading icing on the cake. Ultimately, time on your legs will give you the strength to finish. The "work" intervals will give you the ability to finish stronger and/or faster. The OS bike is no joke - even for those that are on the regular OS run plan.
So, on the subject of how to handle the runs and where to integrate rest, I guess the best advice I can offer is to fit them both in whenever and wherever you can. Sometimes recovery is as simple as dodging one interval set, and other times it requires one or more days off your feet. Three solid runs per week (i.e. non-brick runs) is less-than-ideal for typical folks in marathon prep - but we don't exactly fall into the category of "typical." Also keep in mind that you're getting a lot of aerobic conditioning from the bike workouts as well (though many debate the actual overlap between the two).
I started the hack about 2 weeks into January. I had been logging roughly 40-60 miles per week heading into mid-December, so I just picked up on the hack at whatever week put week 16 just ahead of Boston. Honestly, I read through the hack workouts a couple of times, got a feel for the program, and now I really just wing it on a day-to-day basis. In my experience, distance running is an activity that cannot be forced. Yes, you have to commit to it, but in most cases you simply have to accept what it gives you. To do otherwise is to risk unnecessary damage. I'm semi-fortunate in that running really has little impact on my cycling - but the opposite is far from true. It's smart to exercise some liberty with the hack runs if crushing out a PR in April is not your seasonal goal. Let the plan be your guide, but let your body make the decisions.
Key workouts are a mid-distance tempo (run as negative split), long run (pace depends on fatigue and the day but always shoot for negative split), speed work of hill repeats or Yasso 800's (sometimes 1600's), and the 4th run is 6 to 8 miles at moderate pace. I like to get 3 20's in, sometimes I'll go 22+ but that requires a deeper base than I can get during the OS.
If you are suffering from fatigue and can't get good quality runs in, you are much better off if you skip something - shorten a workout or skip one althogether so you are in better shape for your next effort. Recovery IS an important workout too.
Me - today I ran outside. temps in the mid 20's but the wind shifted so it was into the wind both ways. 18 miles total, 2:42 @ 9:01. Wasnt concerned about pace today. Was all about time on my feet and hitting my first 18 this season. Felt good, no compression on the calf and no issues there - glad for that. The biggest bummer was Garmin threw an error on download so I have no data from todays run..... GGGGRRRRRRRRR! that is the 3rd time losing data. The first 2 were both races!
@ Carrie - what are YOU worried about? I'm thinking you are going to be on or near the podium! Well, maybe that might make me nervous too.... but I don't expect that will ever happen to me.... just sayin.....
Great thread, love the Idea of having so many EN peeps running Boston!
@Brenda No problem. I've seen your posts and support of others and I bet you make friends quite easily. I admire how you uplift others!
@Justin Good points made. I've never done this much intensity during longer runs. Have previously followed Pfitzinger's plan w/ max of about 60 miles so this is new territory for me. Appreciate the info!
@Steve Good stuff. Hope the calf continues to improve! I've lost data before on my Garmins. I have a 310 now and I just hold reset button down for 3 sec before I come inside now and that seems to lock in the data in the watch so it is there for downloading. Have not had lost data since I reset PRIOR to the ANT download. Good luck.
I will give this some further thought but am leaning towards cutting down on Thursday bike intervals so I'm a bit fresher for the Fri and Sun runs and focusing on endurance a tad more than the intensity on longest runs to make sure I get some decent distance in next 6 weeks before taper starts!
Thx, Jeff
Tim,
@ Steve it appears "your calf" is "our calf" according to my last post. Really must reread what I type before posting.
@ Carrie, hope work was not to hard on you today.
@ Justin - getting nervous that I am not doing enough. What are your thoughts on running everyday but keeping the addtional runs short but easy?
Lots of good discussion going on here. I am not following the OS now. But EN is in my blood and I only train hard on the bike. Kind of a sickness
My run program is not the hack. I am following the BAA advanced marathon plan. I am running 45 miles a week. I might hit 50 plus but probably only for a few weeks. I run 4 x a week. Track Tues, Wed brick, Thursday medium long run with tempo, Sunday long run with tempo. Our track intervals are faster than Z4. The tempo thurs is MP. Goal is to practice marathon pace frequently.
My tri's are after Boston. "A" tri is Vineman 70.3 in July. I feel strong and not worried about my FT. I am holding it at 200 and confident I can boost it in May and June.
I have been at this stuff a long time. I am enjoying not focusing on Increasing vdot or FT and building my fitness with the existing numbers.
My legs feel like I did something today,ha!
@ Steve- so glad "our " calf is better. Love that B called it that!! 18 miles!! Wow!
Glad you are all progressing. Baby steps!
CC
Ultimately, you must operate within your means and it sounds as though you're doing exactly that. I can sympathize with your nervousness as I've walked in those shoes more than once. My first ultra last year was 5 weeks after IMLP and I don't think I logged more than 20 mpw leading up to it (my total weekly mileage was less than my scheduled long runs). I ended up finishing fourth and jumped right into my plan the following day. Week in and week out, you're continually building fitness, and that's what counts. Judging by your posts, you're not exactly running fairweather miles either, but some more substantial distances. Stick with the plan and you will have no issues executing "your race" in Boston.
W/regards to everyday running, it has a time and place in every runner's career, and possibly in every runner's season. Hang around a place like slowtwitch long enough and you'll swear that 6x per week running is the greatest discovery since caveman stumbled upon fire. It's great for building fitness and running volume in a safe, progressive manner - namely for those that are new to running or emerging from a layoff or injury. However, there is a lot of credit put into those 3 runs each week where you're essentially running both short and easy (a.k.a. recovery runs). One can argue that time on your feet is time well spent, but that assumes that the alternative is sitting on the couch - certainly not busting out VO2 intervals on the bike. For someone trying to make significant gains on the bike, those recovery runs are likely to present a problem in terms of overall recovery. The effort and duration required for recovery runs means that the ROI is inherently low. Stick with the OS+hack, keep your legs beneath you, and you'll have a good season.
Today, I threw caution to the wind .... and the wind shoved it right back down my throat. While the major symptoms of my stomach bug ended about 48 hours ago, the residual effects were not so quick to dissipate. I was able to throw down a solid 9 miles of treadmill work, with 6 miles of that descending Z2 to Z4. I finished out with a 6:40 average pace (roughly MP) and my legs felt quite strong.
Ironically, it wasn't until I stepped aside to stretch that I realized my body was going to stage a walkout. My post-run stretching is almost exclusively dynamic, so it requires a minor bit of exertion - a minor bit that I couldn't seem to muster up. My legs instantly turned to stone, my back cramped up, and my stomach wound itself into a big knot. I managed to force down 1/2 sandwich and some fluids post-workout, but I'm running a huge calorie deficit from the weekend and it has caught up with me quickly. Needless to say, my workouts over the next few days will take on a frustratingly non-intense, or maybe even non-existent, flavor. I've never been good at riding the bench.
To those in and around the northeastern US, I hope you get a chance to savor some of the unseasonable warmth that's descending upon us!
@ Justin, thank you so much for your post. My gut told me to stick with what I was doing, but my mind was saying something else. Thanks for talking some sense into me. Sorry to hear that after an amazing run your body rebelled today. I hate it when it does that. You are a smart man and it sounds like you have a plan to come back from it. Keep us posted on how you are coming along and keep posting as your feedback is very valuable and appreciated.
Brenda and Jeff- sounds like you both had your questions answered.
@ B- you are progressing just fine. You have always said that your goal was to bump your FT, improve your biking and still train to run Boston. You are exactly doing that. Stick with your plan.
@ Jeff- being tired all the time is a buzz kill. I hope you have figured out the right dose of exercise to improve your run and bike. Sometimes less is more in this case. I tend to improve doing 95% on my bike intervals. Try things out. Drop down on your Thurs bike. See if it helps. We are all self coached and need to figure some stuff out by trial and error.
What do I know? I hate to give advice but I will try to offer things that have worked for me
My legs were tired from the 20 miles Sunday. Not too sore but a little. I rolled them out this morning, put on compression sleeves and off I went to host our track workout.
2 mile warm up, drills
4 x 1 mile @ 10K pace with 400 recovery. I ended up negative splitting them as it was tough to get going. 6:37, 6:30, 6:23, 6:17
1 mile cool down
Overall I feel good. Not crisp but good. No pains anywhere. I am super cautious about aches and pains and fatigue. But I felt good so I did the set. I JUST WANT TO MAKE IT TO THE STARTING LINE IN BOSTON!!!!
Off to roll again...
Hope you are all doing well.
CC
THAT IS GREAT TO READ!!!!
@Carrie Thx for the helpful adivce. I will start to tweak my workouts based on my fatigue level and particularly the bike FTP efforts. 95 might be a lot better than 101% for being able to get my runs done at proper pace!
@B Great to hear you're rocking your bikes and runs!
On a positive note, got home late and swapped bike and run days. Ran an hour w/ some Z3 work and despite feeling sore and sluggish early, legs responded when I put the hammer down and I ran my paces.
Ran before the bike last night - 6 miles, 48' flat. 2 @ 8:34 (Z1), 2@ 7:53 (Z2) and last 2 @ 7:30 (Z3)
Then bike MS only
213 (.991)
213 (.993)
211 (.981)
Total ride @ 190 (.883) for 65'
looking for 10 mile tempo tonight.
Today is my day off and every Wednesday I have a play date with Tom Glynn. Others join too sometimes. Today it is raining and windy so we rode indoors to some kick a$$ music and worked HARD for 1:30 ride time. 3 x 12(3') at or near FT varying cadence every 3 minutes. Then we did 3 x 2 min HARD. Just made up this set to keep ourselves busy.
Ended up with 12'- 100%(201W), 12'- 96%( 192W) 12- 90% (180W)- oopps that is negative split in a bad way
then 2x3 min over 200W- ( 210, 217, 217) those were tough.
Then an 8 mile brick. It was so freaking WINDY!! Tom is coming back from his pelvic/acetabular fracture last July! He ran so well. I am enjoying sharing in his comeback. We averaged 8:05 just running easy and steady. He is a stud!
I LOVE MY DAYS OFF WORK!! I could do it professionally