Why is everyone so hot for GPSeses and fancy monitors in their bikes?
Hey Folks,
I'm just noticing a trend around here, and in general, that lots of people seem to be hot to use a Garmin or other fancy device as the monitor for their powermeter. This all seems to stem from ANT technology opening up the door for other companies, notably Garmin, to enter the PM market on the display side of the house.
My questions and comments:
- What do you expect to use the GPS for on your bike? I guess I'm talking about the 705 here. I've never played around with one but understand it shows you maps and schtuff, which, while cool, wouldn't be a deal-maker for me personally.
- Seems to me you're putting a BIG third party company, Garmin, between you and your small company PM. The Powertap CPU works with the PT. If somethings wrong with it, Saris fixes it. Saris has a BIG interest in making sure your PT works with the monitor. Same with SRM. The SRM monitor has been around for years and it works. Fookin' crazy expensive, as Brian found out, but it works. But if you dealt with Garmin, have any of their other GPS units for car or other, they are a big, big company. Not sure how responsive they are/would be to the software/bug fixing needs of a few PM users.
- Compatibility with WKO+ or other software.
Basically, as I sees it, your PM is three systems: the PM, monitor, and post-ride analysis software. The more separate players you introduce to that system, the more friction you potentially introduce to the system:
- PT + PT CPU or Joelle + WKO = two players (Saris and TP.com) that have had years to work together to fix stuff.
- SRM + SRM monitor + WKO = same deal
- PT/SRM/Quarq (don't really have a choice with Quarq) + Garmin (500 or 705) + WKO = Three players, one very big and in the PM business kinda as a side gig to the other stuff they do.
Just a few thoughts before my run 
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Comments
Maybe this could be a good place where members with experience using PM's + Garmin monitors could consolidate their experiences for us.
My quick thoughts:
For me, the Garmin 310XT offered lots of hope and a solution to my own needs. One unit to collect data on the swim, bike, and run during races or brick workouts- no need to put something on after the swim, worry about finding satelites, etc. Seemed like a great way to simplify. Reality as many know is that the issue you brought up (it's now 3 vendors to work between) means that Garmin 310XT and WKO don't play nice together yet and the data going into WKO isn't reliable. I'm hopeful WKO will update their SW to work with the 310XT before I start riding outside more and wanting to use the Garmin to also help me with riding new routes. In the mean time, I'm using my trusty reliable little yellow computer that Saris has been so good about making sure remains working!
I'm an early adopter with certain things and LOVE to see improvement with data and physiology. These new tools allow for that. I bought my first HR monitor (still have it...a Polar) in 1986-1987. Didn't know how to use it as there was no software but it was cool to learn how heat, fuel, etc effected me.
Because ANT+ allows a platform for conversation between all of these devices I don't see much risk as the producers of the equipment will eventually get things sifted out with internet blogs and forums being such a significant part of our culture in the Tri community. If they see negative feedback they will address. Garmin, as you pointed out, is less responsive as they don't appear to be as flat a company as Saris.
I love my 705 when I explore on my Fridays or do a century and want to recreate it but was too brain dead to remember the route. I plan on doing some rides in Monterey in Jan solo and will use the mapping function to lead me around and get me back home as you can pick "bike" routes to keep you off the freeway when planning rides. Most of my rides do not need mapping so the 705 is overkill but was the best option going as I now know what a 17% grade is and can see the false flats at 1% (great feature on the garmin).
I have not had any issues with WKO+ and the 705 btw. I download info differently than with my PT monitor but the data gets there just the same.
I currently am using a Cinqo and plan on training with the Joule and look forward to seeing the TSS, IF and NP info to see when I should shut down my effort and just head home before imploding like I did last week when I still had 20 miles to go. The temperature feature will be great for retro analysis as I like to aerobically TT a hill every once in awhile and have my weight, bike, bike setup, wind, etc noted with the dates and times I climbed this particular hill but the variable of temp is very important. Oddly, my fastest time was pre-IM Wis 2008 when it was probably 95 degrees BUT I can only guess at this point. The Joule 2.0 will help with that.
Also, the match burn feature will be fun to play with and learn when to kick my group riders in the shorts and when to hold back.
Vince
I'm a recent Powertap buyer and first off thought that the 705 and a PT was the way to go, I like riding outside and the maps woud be useful. Then I started to read the stories of all the issues with the units talking to each other and downloading; I also thought that I'm going to be riding on my trainer most likely for the next 20 weeks any way.....the yellow box works, why make life more complicated? I was an ergomo user for a while (before the bike was stolen
) and in 6 months of trying never got the damn thing to download once!
My choice was definitely to go with the simple solution!
Nemo,
I download my 310xt run info into the training center then export the data history to my desktop, then drop it onto WKO+. It works perfectly for me. Is that what you are doing?
Vince
Nemo's two reasons for using the Garmin have nothing to do with PM data recording, of course. I agree that using the GPS watch while riding does add a little extra data to workouts; I usually ride with both my 305 on my wrist, and my iBike on the stem. But the 305 is mainly as a backup for those times when the finicky iBike flakes out. And more important, for immediate use in the Multi-Sport mode for those all important post ride runs. After a year or so, I lost interest in seeing my ride overlaid on sat photos, except when I am doing a totally new route, and even then, it seems like a waste of time to set it up just to see where I've been. And the Garmin elevation profiles and climbing data are HIGHLY suspect, due to the dithering built in for civilian use. The barometric altitude data from my iBike does not have this built in error.
As for plotting out a course in advance, I much prefer the adventure of possibly getting lost, or at least exploring a bit, to spending the extra time to enter in coordinates.
In a week (with the next credit card billing cycle), I will be getting a PT, and not worrying about getting the newest Joule, as my iBike does have ANT + connectivity capability. I'll see how long THAT lasts!
So I'm with Rich - why introduce more complexity, especially when I already know the risks, and have a perfectly functioning 305 which only cost $145, compared to $3-400 a new 310 would run. But since I have and use the 305 for running, it can go along for the ride on two wheels as well.
Jonathan,
I have zero issues with the 705 downloading to WKO+ but its a different process than the normal download where you Pick your device then download.
With the 705: I plug the 705 into my computer via USB cable and then the computer recognizes the garmin as a separate Hard drive. I then click on the Garmin icon and go into the History folder and find my ride by data by Date. I then drag and drop it onto WKO+ screen (WKO+ is already open). I have to choose my name instead of Joe Athlete as the athlete to save the data to, then click save. The standard WKO+ screen opens and I can read my info just like I would PT, Polar or any other device.
I actually have fewer issues getting my 705 data as sometimes when I used the download device from the PT it wouldn't recognize it. This was occasionally but I never have issues with the 705. Hope this helps.
Vince
I love my Ergomo, but it's dying a slow death. So I've bought a Quarq Cinqo (Thank you, Coach R!) and am planning on using the Joule with it. I don't like the idea of PM and monitor from 2 different companies, but the folks at Saris and Quarq have assured me that they are compatible.
The Joule isn't cheap, but I'm willing to pay the $$$ to have TSS, NP, and IF (I can't do long division) in real time like the Ergomo does.
The issue isn't with getting the info into WKO. The process you describe works just fine (clumsy yes, but it works). The issue is that the Power data from the 310XT is not correctly interpreted in WKO and so your data is off (we did lots of testing between what the yellow PT computer results and the Garmin 310XT results and found lots of issues. The net was that TrainingPeaks recognizes they have to update their software with new allgorhythms to "read" the 310XT Power data correctly and have promised an upgrade- it just hasn't come out yet. See this old thread for more detail: http://www.endurancenation.us/en_fo...php?t=8935
I have no use for gps on the bike. I have a 310 and have played with it a bit for power but its function is to give me run pace data. I upgraded from the 205 only because I could wear it the entire race rather than screw with putting it on and turning it on at some point later which I managed to screw up a few times. I have a long track record of not working electronics very well while racing am often clueless as to where I am overall time wise until I see a clock over the finish line.
This is my fancy monitor:
I am on the fence about GPS. I thought it would be cool to download routes from Map My Ride so I could explore interesting places and not get lost.
1. I've had fun getting lost.
2. It seems nearly as effective to just follow groups of roadies and see where they are riding. Yes, North Shore peeps, I've probably stalked you.
Nemo,
I do not use my 310xt for power only running at this point due to having a 705 for that. So, I haven't really experienced the same issues you have. I hope by March or May, whenever I plan on my first race, they have it worked out.
Vince
I do want a small, customizable, and affordable computer to put on my bike. I'm a data geek and I like to see more data than the little yellow computer offers, for example I really like to be able to see my current power and lap average power on the same screen... plus I like to have total time, total distance, speed, cadence and HR depending on if I'm training or racing. This is why I am testing out a Garmin Edge 500... it can show up to 24 metrics while riding, is about the same size as the little yellow computer, and cost $250 or less.
If the 310XT would have worked correctly with WKO, I would have probably went that route and had a single device that recorded everything.
I decided to make a change from my old wired PT to a crank based system, mainly because I wanted wireless and the ability to use different computers. Saris quoted me over $1100 to have my wired SL (which is laced into a FP60) changed to one of the lower model wireless hubs. For that price it was not worth it to stick with the PT and I decided for only a few hundred more to try something new. Plus I can now sell the PT which will help recover some of the cost of the quarq.
I personally like using new technology and being able to pick different components from different companies to get the solution. Yes there is a risk with this, but I know and accept that. For each there own.
My Ergomo started to show signs of the pending doom (according to the postings in the Google groups) so decided to change it now while I had time to mess around with it. Went with the Quarq Cinqo and Garmin 310xt. I had read about the 310/wko issues, but really didn’t want to get the 705 (too big, won’t use mapping) so got the 310. The thought was to use it to replace my 305 and then get either the Garmin 500 or the Joule once available. You are spot on Rich. The 310/WKO incompatibility issues are driving me NUTS (more than I thought it would).
Call me old school, but I use HR Monitor, "Perceived Effort" and a basic bike computer with speed and average pace. That's it! Anything more for me would be information overload and only be a distraction that would cause me to crash on the bike or trip and fall on the run!
And Halligan! THANK YOU for my morning laugh! Great Pic!
Halligan,
If that device is what I need to develop your wattage #'s...sign me up! Great pic.
Vince
I've wondered about this very question myself. What I need on a bike computer for display are real-time watts, hr and ride time. Watts is most important to me by a long shot though.
For post-ride analysis I want my computer to record much more. Basically everything that I get from a PT Pro computer today is fine. I can see why people want gps data for elevation profile. That can be interesting. My biggest complaint about post-ride analysis functionality today is the ability to generate more interesting graphs/reports.
Thanks, Chris
My Ergomo has elevation, total gain and percent gain. It's interesting, but I don't look at it other than to confirm that, yep, this hill is steep.
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I could see the usefulness of riding in a new or unknown area and having a route laid out so you could follow it. But for post ride analysis, you can just as easily recreate your ride in MapMyRide, GoogleEarth, or other tool.
I guess the flip side is that you are a PM company, you've now contracted out a significant item of your hardware, the monitor, to Garmin or any other technology player. You then let your customers leverage the web to tell Garmin what they think of your product, identify bugs to fix, and Garmin absorbs the cost of improving "your" monitor.
I'm not saying any of this is bad, was just curious cuz none of this was an issue back in the day. Back in the day we were just happy to have WKO but didn't really know how to use it
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On that note, PnI are rewriting our plans and we like to use TrainingPeaks as our tool to do that: use their platform vs a Word doc or Excel file to create the plans. FYI, they have a coaching tool called the Desktop Companion that is, hands down, one of the most awesomest and unknown little coaching tools out there...but the rest of their new site sucks, I'm sorry. I don't know much about anything, but when you have to have a zillion videos and free webinars to show your customers how to use your product, probably not a good thing.
Anywho, I mention this cuz I'll bet Halligan's paycheck that, if they are rewriting WKO, they are going to make it subscription-based software tied to their platform. Only makes sense for their biz model. Just sayin'
Rich, Et. Al-
I understand the functions of the joule and have looked @ getting one of those after they get some of the bugs worked out. As an Ergomo user, is the TSS and NP functions that useful and great to have real time or should I save my money?
Do we not still race with TSS, VI, etc? I took a year off so I'm not sure if things have changed being that Ergomo was on the way out.
Vince
I have found having TSS, IF, Pnorm, etc to be very useful, for both training and racing. I luuuvvv the Ergomo monitor.
Yes, but we have likely refined it since you were last paying attention
. See the threads stickied to the top of the race execution forum, as well as the Race Execution area of the Train Map.
As someone that spent a lot of time with an Edge 305 and Edge 705 without power. I can say that I like the data they gather. It's great for instant ride nostalgia, quickly looking back where you went if you just found a new hill and wait, what it was 18% for 1.7 miles awesome! Or planning a ride in a new area or while traveling (I did this in Palos Verdes last January) and having your route together ahead of time.
The Edge 305 and 705 (as well as the 500) have barometric altimeters which are a lot more accurate than the forerunner (305, 310xt, 405, etc.) GPS watches which determine altitude by GPS. So if you're riding hills you can see what you did and for how long.
Combine that with a power meter an you've got Location, Speed, Cadence, Altitude, Power, HR etc. All the stuff a data geek loves.
I'm using a wired PT right now and I have to say from a user experience point of view the LYC is a small nightmare. I can never remember how to perform a Zero torque, clear memory or a start a new interval without checking the manual. I'm sure i'll start remembering soon enough, I've only been using it a few weeks, but if I need to worry about when I'm going to remember how to interact with a product for fairly simple and often used procedures, there's a big FAIL in there somewhere. That being said, the LYC appears be be fairly bulletproof device and that goes big in the plus column. Oh and on my LYC there's no backlight, so i've got a flashlight in my bento box for when I'm on the trainer and I need to see which mode the bottom line is in.
WKO+, well it does a lot of things right. It'd be great i they could nail the 310xt problem in a .1 update and make their users happy. WKO+ excels in data display, but it's another product that is not particularly great in the user experience area. Maybe I expect more coming from being a Mac guy from day one. There are people out there writing windows applications with good UI/UE, it's just not the norm or expected on that platform so may developers let that area of their software just exist rather then be designed.
There's a documentary called Objectified on PBS this month that talks about designing for the user experience. And how it applied to every day objects like Chairs and scissors and not just iPods (although Apple is talked about a lot in the film). If that kind of stuff excites you, you might want to see the PBS schedule for when it's on next.
I know I strayed a bit off of the subject here, but the UI is one of the main reasons I can't wait to ask Rich for a quote on an ANT+ Wheel only to go with my 705 so I can move away from the LYC later this month.
Rant over
FWIW, WKO+ was orginally CyclingPeaks, and was created by Hunter Allen and his coaching group...or something like that. In other words, I'm pretty sure it was a BIG stretch for these guys to make it, and pay for it. I can understand if it's not the slickest tool and it definitely could be improved.
TrainingBible bought it, partnered with them, something like that. I know that Hunter was brought in as kinda a partner or something.
TrainingBible became TrainingPeaks, CyclingPeaks became WKO, and other than bug fixes, etc, the only significant change to the software has been the addition of the Performance Manager Chart (PMC) features.
TP has been on a tear to make a ton of changes, completely rebuilding their site, and they have been all about downloading and working with every gadget on the planet. It's likely that bringing WKO inside their platform and charging a subscription for access is on their radar.
Which could be good, or bad, depending on your point of view.
There was a great, albeit lengthy, thread on the Google Wattage group not too long ago where Allen (and others) talked about WKO+, trainingpeaks.com, Mac versions, cloud vs desktop apps, piracy, support, etc. Allen also talked about the perils of small software development, second mortages, etc. Pretty interesting read. Of course I'm still pretty choked they haven't fixed the 310XT problems yet.
My thoughts, I have the edge 705 and I like it. It paid for itself when I was about 40 plus miles from home and lost, plug in my address and off I go. The second reason is the screen is bigger and when riding it is easier to look down and see.
Now Rich is right about putting another device in the way, when I first got it I was having a problem setting it up with my PM, when I called Saris they told me sorry cannot help you. But when I called Garmin they walked me right through the problem.
Dave...that picture made morning caffeine fix come out my nose.....very funny.
I looked at the 705 but couldn't justify spending yet another 400 this season. Maybe next year since I still want to invest in the footpod for the Garmin. As a new power user, I have to say I am so hooked. I tell everyone I can about how great it is. I love it. It is clear why I haven't been able to finish an IM yet....I just haven't been working hard enough.
I've been saying this for a long time but it bears repeating.
An iBike is fully ANT+ compliant. Meaning it can be used as a CPU for a PT, Quarq or SRM (I presume SRM is ANT+).
iBike has had real time NP TSS and IF since about Feb/Mar 2008 as part of the normal display.
Just sayin'!
Not much to add that hasn't already been said very well up above, but a few random thoughts anyway: