Week 9 Run Thread
Getting ready to go do this morning's run with Z5 intervals on the dreadmill....can't wait in a sick and twisted kind of way....
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Getting ready to go do this morning's run with Z5 intervals on the dreadmill....can't wait in a sick and twisted kind of way....
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Got mine done this morning outside with my screw shoes. 2x200, 3x400, 3x200. Haven't downloaded the file yet but was hitting 5:30-5:45 pace. Felt suprisingly good after yesterday. I felt kind of cooked all day and slept really hard. I really like the VO2 run stuff.
On run VO2 days, how should I run the balance of the time? Z3 or Z1?
Thanks, John
@John - for the first week or two I would just do the remainder at Z1. VO2 work has a way of sneaking up on you and putting you in a hole, so when in doubt I woul not add extra work or an extra training stress. Once you have done 2 weeks of VO2 work then re-evaluate but at least make sure you are handling it ok and recovering well for the first 2 weeks.
Got it done on the treadmill and it didn't seem too bad. According to my zones, my Z5 pace (6:07) is 2 seconds per mile slower than my 5K test pace. Is that correct?
@John I did all of the non-interval running at a 7:30 pace which is between my Z1 (8:08) and Z2 (6:55), and did the entire workout at a 1.5% grade.
Chris - I think the paces you get from www.attackpoint.org/trainingpaces.jsp
for repetitions at 400 and 200m are the paces we use. I may be wrong.
Joe
@Matt - thanks for the tip. With some "micro" help from Patrick, I am planning a 10mi race on 9 Jan and the temptation to do more is there!
Intervals done...I took my 200's and 400's off of what the vDOT chart had me doing them at....200's at 46 seconds and 400's at 1:34.....Is that the right times to use. I played around and ran the last 2 x200's at 10 mph and it felt okay. Tried doing them all at a 2% incline. I have to say though after that bike workout, run, and ice skating with my daughter for 2 hours yesterday I felt it a little today.
Warmed up for 10 minutes and then got a total of 47 minutes in. Wasn't sure what to run the remainder in so I played around...Some at E pace then HMP, MP, and all over the place. Back to the fire department and was interrupted for a call at min 47. I have to say I wasn't to sad because it was starting to hurt though. I must be sick cause I really enjoy intervals......
Excited for the Z5 repeats on the bike again tomorrow. I think I can see and feel a big gain on the bike this next test coming.
My one reaction is that if your 200s were 35", then 90" for the 400s doesn't pair well. Notice that your proscribed pace gave you twice the time for the 400s plus about 2 seconds. (i.e.,. 1:40 = 50 seconds). I have not been through this program before, but if you can only hold 400s at 1:30, but you can go that much faster for the 200s, that you are better off doing the 200s closer to the proscribed pace, but with a little less than full recovery so they become a little more "400-like". It sounds like you were pretty much all out sprinting for the 200s. Just my not-very-expert thoughts.
3 x 200 40.5-41.2 sec
3 x 300 all 82.2-82.9 sec
3 x 200 38.5, 41.4 40.6
All work cadences averaged 90-94.
Filled out the hour as comfortable...sometimes faster, sometimes slower, averaging 7:18 (a stitch lower than MP) after a little recovery. :-)
Thanks William,
You have a sharp eye for details. Something kept bothering me about this and then it hit me like a freight train. I did run on a track that surrounds the football field at Duke University. The south end zone is shaded by a large scoreboard and had about an inch of ice and snow still on it from the White Christmas we had. The rest of the track was clear. So, I decided to do the 200's as 50 yard line to 50 yard line on the North end, assuming the track and field were symetrical to avoid running through the ice at full speed. Then I just realized the south end of the field has a pole vault pit, high jump, etc, so it is not symetrical. I actually ran somewhat less than 200. The 400's were a compete loop and are accurate distances, with about 30 yards of ice through the turns.
I tested last week at 23:13, Vdot of 41.9 So, next time I'll try to find the actual markings for a 200 on the track. I suspect I would have ran 200 in 43 against the prescribed 50 according to Attack Point tables. I would have to ease up some to hit the prescribed times. Should I or keep the hammer down?
okay...I'm not sure what to think.
I did the run on the treadmill at the gym today. I also have a garmin footpod.
Last week prior to the 5k test I calibrated the foot pod ata 450m track and it came in pretty darn close to the factory setting. When I ran the 5k I noticed the pace it gave me was pretty close to the lap splits I was getting. Not perfect, but really darn close. That test was around a 6:30 pace for the total run.
Fast forward today and I am in the same shoes with the footpod untouched or moved. I hop on the treadmill and start off with my warmup just fine. Pace seems fairly close to the treadmill. I do some strides to warm up and notice a bigger difference. But the speed on the TM feels about right.
I hit the main set and punch in 9.3mph on the treadmill which is about a 6:25ish pace. And frankly, like the bike set, it didn't really feel that bad. But the garmin was reading between 5:55 and 6min pace. And that difference seemed incredibly large.
I held that pace for the entire set, no problem. I even did 12min at z3 towards the end of the workout to finish up.
But now I don't know what to believe...the treadmill or the garmin.
This is the first time I've really gone and run 200's or 400's and the track was covered with snow and slush.
According to WKO, the garmin footpod was very consistent from rep to rep. little to no deviation in the pace it read.
I will add that my Z5 pace is really close to my 5k pace. And to me, 200's and 400's at 5k pace should be easy. But the pace I was running on the treadmill was fast enough where I don't know that I could have really held it for a 5k. Maybe. Tough to tell, but I was breathing pretty heavy at the end.
Thoughts?
connect.garmin.com/activity/61088767
That hurt................
Did the repeats on a side road near the house - used Google Earth and driveways to figure my start/stops. Ran by feel (Garmin berried under my Sporthill top). In the end, repeats were 35 to 60 seconds per mile faster than needed.
7.35 miles total in 1:07 @ 9:08 includeing all the slow slush-shuffle and walk breaks between repeats.
On the other hand, you could just run the proscribed pace for 1 minute and not worry about the distance. I find it easier on these hard intervals to have a "finish line", but a temporal one could work too.
I wish I could give you a better answer on the overachieving. RnP generally say that overachieving on the bike is better/safer than on the run. If you can do the next workout and are very comfortable that you're not going to yank a hammy or strain an achilles, then maybe it's fine, but be careful. i was in the same position...going a bit faster than the suggested rate. I haven't run much at all at these short distances and took it to mean "run as fast as you can to hold really good form and still be able to do them all without fading...and then see what that is in relation to the expected pace..." I know that's not very scientific or satisfying.
More expereinced folks please correct me if I am wrong, but it seems the balance of a w/o after the main set is basically a "zone 3 optional" set if not expressly prescribed. If you are recovering well from workouts and feel good, log some Z3 time after the main set... if not, don't. If you aren't sure, better to not do the "optional" Z3 then risk putting yoruself in a hole (well, one extra Z3 session probably isn't going to put you in a hole, but a bunch of Z3 session after main sets when you are tired/not recovered might). Earlier in this thread, Matt Ancona suggested for those of us new to VO2 work, consider doing Z1 for a week or two after the main set until you are certain that you are handling/recovering well from the VO2 run-stuff... seems like sage advice to me. To be clear, I'm just talking about the undefined portions of a w/o.. think Rich pretty much covered the guidance on whether or not to overachieve on the intervals themselves
(new wiki entry from him on interval overachieving in case you missed it).
Did the VO2 work on the treadmill, still to much snow outside. I really don't like doing any of my workouts on the treadmill, especially the VO2 sets. Today the gym really had the heat cranked up which made it especially difficult.
Since the recovery time is short on the 200's and 400's I took Al's advice and kept the speed the same and just either did high knees on the rails or jumped off the treadmill for some jogging in place. I'm sure it looked pretty funny, the belt flying and me jogging on the rails, but it worked well.
The post interval 30 min @ Zone 2-3 was challenging, lost a few pounds in water weight. Definately had some Gumby legs at the end of this one.
As I think about it that is much more recovery than I was getting on the bike. Is this ok? Am I over thinking this? Am I using this as a stall technique before hittng the bike this morning? (probably).
As a follow-up the legs feel pretty good--but a little tight around the hips this morning. Good reminder to do more stretching. Well I've stalled enough, down to the pain cave.
Geoff, the typical answer is, take as much time as you need to recover to push the next interval to the pace you need to hit.
What most of us do for these shorter intervals is take the same distance in recovery as the interval itself. Wether you walk, or easy jog it depends on your fitness. Ex.. 200m interval 200m walk/jog
Because of geography I had to switch up a little and do 1.5 then 1, then .5 miles
All efforts were around 5:50/mile pace. The two good things, the treadmill I've been using is pretty close to outside speed so there shouldn't be a huge letdown when I get outside. Second the work is working....who knew? Third good thing, I spent some time w/ my buddy and he sleep well tonight.
http://connect.garmin.com/activity/61191911
Caught up by running the Wednesday workout today. Ran all the intervals way too fast for my zones. Right hammy is feeling it now. Hold back you fool!
2 x 200: 0:49, 1:01
2 x 400: 1:52, 1:51
2 x 200: 0:55, 0:51
Wow that is some flat terrain.