@ Al, Yes now I see the splits for many of the races.
Thanks - I had not noticed those before. I will add bike and run splits to the sheets. It looks like 3 splits and total time will cover all events. Any 4 loop courses out there?
Very comprehensive and impressive. I was unable to add to the suggestion tab, so will do so here: it would be useful to be sure that all entries for a particular race have a unique identifier, so that the data can be easily linked if extported to another software package (i.e. for statistical analysis).
I will very curious to see how the bike metrics influence run performance (the way we are always told that they do).
@ Christian. Thanks for the heads up on the edit issue. I looks like I had not allowed for edit capabilities. I think that is fixed now. I agree for the need for a unique identifier to facilitate the analysis.
My thoughts are that this “user facing database” once populated will be dumped into a preprocessed structure will all fields from the multiple sheets in a single record. Also as the data is preprocessed the 1 – 5 type answers to the questions would be reduced down to the single digit answers to facilitate analysis and plotting.
The critical missing piece of data I see aero drag on the bike or your position. For example two similar sized people at the same race, with the same aero helmet, wheels, frame, etc can have very different times based on position.
I know this is not possible to get exact date here without windtunnel time or field CdA testing, but it is a HUGE factor in all of this, as I see MANY people at every ironman in a more upright position on their cervelo they I will even ride on my road bike.
My thought is maybe we capture saddle to aerobar pad drop (along with body height). While by no means perfect it will at least give us some indication of the type of position the the person is in. In general, I would say <0 cm drop and you are a paracute, 0-10 cm drop is average, >10 cm drop is getting pretty aero and maxamizing your speed. Of cousre this is different for really short or really tall folks (or ones with longer/shorter arms than normal).
Another key is how much you were out of the aerobars. The best position in the world isn't worth much if you can't hold it for the full ride. Go watch mile 80-112 of any ironman and I bet that 50% of people are sitting up and therefore might as well just be on a road bike.
@ Matt – I like the drop from seat to pads as a simple way to capture some perspective on how areo the bike fit is. Also thanks for the catch on the did you ride in the drops the whole time or sat up a bunch. I hand that in my first pass and lost it somewhere along the process. Will also add a place holder for CDA per Craigs request up in the thread.
Certainly an interesting project. Like some of the others have mentioned I have serious doubts that the data will be useful though. Amount of drop is not really going to tell us anything about cda. All this also requires that we assume that watts are consistent. They arent or sure do not seem to be in real life. Also people do not seem to have their FTP right and generally execute poorly, even EN ninja types have been known to chunk it.
Putting all that aside we can go back to the multiple threads every year where someone starts with, what do I have to do to ride XX:XX at XX? Oh wait, thats really exactly what this is. An estimated time for a bike leg is only useful to attempt to figure out what to plug into the wattage gear sheet. Chasing a split out there is a terrible idea. If there is a big set of data that people are looking at and thinking "I have XX for an FTP, a disc and 12 cm of drop and therefore I should be riding XX:XX at LP" it is a recipe for disaster. Goes back to the whole could v should bike split thing. Figure out what watts you have, figure out the gears, ride the course that is in front of you [wind, rain, temp] and forget the time as there is not much you can do about it anyway, a least no much you can do about it that isn't a really bad plan.
However, I could be completely wrong...its happened before.
@ Chris - there are those who obsess over data, and those who try to intuit their way to success starting with a few basic principles, and maybe even those who vacillate between those two modes. There's no harm in getting data from a cross section of people, and that may well be very helpful for inexperienced IMers or folks with minimal athletic background who want a ballpark estimate of what to expect. But as others have noted race day is very individual, both in terms of course conditions, and in terms of what we bring to the race - fitness, execution. I'm always looking for simple data sets, and so I'd limit things to course, environmental conditions (temp, wind, rain), w/kg, (FTP & weight should be covered by the former?), time, VI, and comments (for all the things like bike and fit geometry, time spent aero, excessive biobreaks, etc.).
I think the data and subsequent analysis could be helpful and informative. But as Chris noted until you yourself have an alternate experience, you should do as he listed:
"Figure out what watts you have, figure out the gears, ride the course that is in front of you [wind, rain, temp] and forget the time as there is not much you can do about it anyway, a least no much you can do about it that isn't a really bad plan."
I have incorporated the input from multiple people into an updated EN IM 140.6 Race Database sheet. Thank you for those that gave feedback – many good ideas!
Before I put this out there for “Prime Time” input, I thought I would let this thread take a look at this update to find the places where my brain cell took a break. Part of the pain was making the formulas deal with the lack of data when they are copied down the page.
I have included an instruction TAB to help the users understand how to work with the sheet to capture their race data.
The formulas are only copied down to the bottom of the current page. Once I get feedback from this team, I will make needed adjustments and copy formulas down to row ~500. I will also create a 70.3 version of this sheet to capture race results for our ½ Ironman events.
I have placed my 4 IM race data sets into the form for context and to get the process started. It took me 15-20 min per race to find my data (most of the time) and to do the drop down selections.
I think the best way to kick the tires on the database is to enter race data for 1 of your races. This will identifying any user interface issues and needed changes. Note issues or requested changes with a post into this thread.
I strongly believe that the EN process of “Work Works” and racing smarter is the icing on the day’s performance! I think this dataset can help us all race a bit smarter. I look forward to the analysis of this data set and what performance hints we may find.
Thank you in advance for you feed back and your data entry.
Matt, thanks for all your hard work on this! I have gone and put in one race worth of my data. Unfortunately, I am new to EN and do not have all the power data that would be helpful. I have just left those cells blank. I could estimate them for you, but maybe adding bad data is worse than no data at all.
I look forward to seeing a bunch of data in here soon!
Thanks for getting this going Matt. I have started to enter some data, but will have to dig up old files to complete it later today. I completely agree that having some of this data wil help inform us on matters of exceeding certain limits and their impact on subsequent race disciplines.
@Matt. I have 3 other races to put in and will do so later. I started with the best. :-) 2007 IMLP should be instructive for its bad bike pacing. I will get those in later today.
Comments
@ Al, Yes now I see the splits for many of the races.
Thanks - I had not noticed those before. I will add bike and run splits to the sheets. It looks like 3 splits and total time will cover all events. Any 4 loop courses out there?
Matt,
Very comprehensive and impressive. I was unable to add to the suggestion tab, so will do so here: it would be useful to be sure that all entries for a particular race have a unique identifier, so that the data can be easily linked if extported to another software package (i.e. for statistical analysis).
I will very curious to see how the bike metrics influence run performance (the way we are always told that they do).
chris
My thoughts are that this “user facing database” once populated will be dumped into a preprocessed structure will all fields from the multiple sheets in a single record. Also as the data is preprocessed the 1 – 5 type answers to the questions would be reduced down to the single digit answers to facilitate analysis and plotting.
I will add a record Identifier to the sheet.
Matt
The critical missing piece of data I see aero drag on the bike or your position. For example two similar sized people at the same race, with the same aero helmet, wheels, frame, etc can have very different times based on position.
I know this is not possible to get exact date here without windtunnel time or field CdA testing, but it is a HUGE factor in all of this, as I see MANY people at every ironman in a more upright position on their cervelo they I will even ride on my road bike.
My thought is maybe we capture saddle to aerobar pad drop (along with body height). While by no means perfect it will at least give us some indication of the type of position the the person is in. In general, I would say <0 cm drop and you are a paracute, 0-10 cm drop is average, >10 cm drop is getting pretty aero and maxamizing your speed. Of cousre this is different for really short or really tall folks (or ones with longer/shorter arms than normal).
Another key is how much you were out of the aerobars. The best position in the world isn't worth much if you can't hold it for the full ride. Go watch mile 80-112 of any ironman and I bet that 50% of people are sitting up and therefore might as well just be on a road bike.
I will add the three in.
As we continue to refine the sheets – some initial thoughts on things we may learn from this data set.
• Which event do we most often come in with our fitness at target level
• Which event do we most often come in with our fitness off from target level
• When we miss executing on Hydration - do we under or over eat- what time impact?
• When we miss executing on Nutrition - do we under or over drink- what time impact?
• How effective is our mental 6 pack?
• How happy are we with our race results? Does this improve with years in EN?
• What does a overly aggressive bike do to run times? TSS > 300??
• What does going out to fast on the bike or the run do to overall times vs steady pacing
• Do EN members have more even bike and run splits than the general field?
• What is the range of Watts that will get you around course X in time Y.
• What % of single event vDot do we typically execute the IM run at? Does this improve with experience?
• What is the range of VI for a specific course. What do the "Ninja" riders hold for VI?
• How prevalent and pace impacting is cramping?
• Influence of seat to pad height on bike times?
I think the above is just scratching the surface.
Matt
Certainly an interesting project. Like some of the others have mentioned I have serious doubts that the data will be useful though. Amount of drop is not really going to tell us anything about cda. All this also requires that we assume that watts are consistent. They arent or sure do not seem to be in real life. Also people do not seem to have their FTP right and generally execute poorly, even EN ninja types have been known to chunk it.
Putting all that aside we can go back to the multiple threads every year where someone starts with, what do I have to do to ride XX:XX at XX? Oh wait, thats really exactly what this is. An estimated time for a bike leg is only useful to attempt to figure out what to plug into the wattage gear sheet. Chasing a split out there is a terrible idea. If there is a big set of data that people are looking at and thinking "I have XX for an FTP, a disc and 12 cm of drop and therefore I should be riding XX:XX at LP" it is a recipe for disaster. Goes back to the whole could v should bike split thing. Figure out what watts you have, figure out the gears, ride the course that is in front of you [wind, rain, temp] and forget the time as there is not much you can do about it anyway, a least no much you can do about it that isn't a really bad plan.
However, I could be completely wrong...its happened before.
@ Chris - there are those who obsess over data, and those who try to intuit their way to success starting with a few basic principles, and maybe even those who vacillate between those two modes. There's no harm in getting data from a cross section of people, and that may well be very helpful for inexperienced IMers or folks with minimal athletic background who want a ballpark estimate of what to expect. But as others have noted race day is very individual, both in terms of course conditions, and in terms of what we bring to the race - fitness, execution. I'm always looking for simple data sets, and so I'd limit things to course, environmental conditions (temp, wind, rain), w/kg, (FTP & weight should be covered by the former?), time, VI, and comments (for all the things like bike and fit geometry, time spent aero, excessive biobreaks, etc.).
"Figure out what watts you have, figure out the gears, ride the course that is in front of you [wind, rain, temp] and forget the time as there is not much you can do about it anyway, a least no much you can do about it that isn't a really bad plan."
I have incorporated the input from multiple people into an updated EN IM 140.6 Race Database sheet. Thank you for those that gave feedback – many good ideas!
I look forward to seeing a bunch of data in here soon!
---Ann.
@Ann thank you for adding your race info. It pointed out an issue with one formula. Congrats on your KQ!!!!
I agree no data is better than Bad data! I fixed the formula issue that was identified.
NEXT one to take the Plunge?
---Ann.
Beverly You don't have to have Power to enter race data.The sheet is set up for HR athletes also.