Bike Tires: A little Overwhelmed
I have a Tire Question. There are a lot of forum discussions on this topic and I have read through all of them (I think). All the discussion and asking my LBS has honestly left me a little overwhelmed with what to do.
I am trying to decide what tires I should buy for my bike. I have a Cervelo P2 tire size (700x23c). Right now I using what the bike came with, Vittoria Rubino Pro Slick, so far so good with these tires. They are new and in good shape. I am limited on my experience so I feel I need to ask these questions.
Questions:
1. Should I be buying a new set of tires to train on leading up to Lake Placid IM and then put the Vittoria Rubino Pro Slicks back on for the race?
2. OR Should I leave the Vittoria Rubino Pro Slicks on the bike to train and then buy a new tire for the race, leaving some time to break them in?
3. What tire? I am a little stressed about putting a "faster" tire on my bike and then getting flats. I am tempted to buy a set of Gator Skins and call it a day.
4. Is a Gator Skin type tire crazy to race in?
I'm 5feet 10 inches tall about 160lbs. Goal for IMLP (first IM) is to finish under 14 hours. Bike split near 6:45ish??
Thanks all
Comments
Do not race on Gator skins. You'll be giving up in the neighborhood of 10-15 mins on the bike. Its like riding through mud.
Generally, I put a new set of tires on prior to my AAA race each year, if its long course. Also, if my training tries (I still use fast tires in training) are in good shape sometimes I'll just use them. My training tires are old racing tires though.
Are you familiar with AFM Tire chart?
Negative...
Had this bookmarked. Pretty sure its a recent enough version, if not the latest.
http://www.biketechreview.com/tires_old/images/AFM_tire_testing_rev9.pdf
Find your tire. Is it on the first page? If yes, its probably fast enough, if not consider moving to a tire on the first page
Consider switching to latex tubes. I use them and even train on the them.
Do some research on tire pressure as well. I roll 100psi in the front and 105 in the back. You want the tire to do its job. You don't want to be bouncing down the round. I would guess 75% of the people ride with PSI way to high. I'm 148 lbs.
Is there a difference between tire sizes of 700x23 and 700x23c? What's the "c"?
everything you wanted to know about tire sizing!
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/tire-sizing.html
That is not remotely true. The CRR of the has to do with the material, putting talcum powder on it will not change that. There is some good science out there if you care to read it. If not, buy latex tubes and pick a good tire off the front page of Al's chart and be done with it. Oh and be sure to ignore whoever told you that about talcum powder.
Chris, you burst my balloon!
I was thinking that if rubbing talcum powder on my tubes would help, why not cover my bike and even my body with it (of course I would need to dry off completely in T1 which could negate some of the gains). As I hit each bike aid station I would yell out TALCUM POWDER! and would get hit with a fresh spray of the white stuff. I was imagining my white coated body and bike flying down the road, passing everyone while leaving a cloud of talcum powder in my wake.
Oh well.
Apologies to Bob - my twisted imagination got the best of me.
For training - Bontrager Race Lite "Hardcase". These suckers are heavy and built tough. Probably a lot like the Gatorskins. If they ever flat, I'll be shocked. I've gone over all sorts of shit with these tires -- metal road debris, glass, whatever -- and no issues. If you use a PT and train indoors sometimes you can use this tire on the trainer. The major problem with them is that they have a wire bead so are a bi*ch to get on and off. Since I use a specific wheelset for training only, this didn't present a problem since I just left the tires on the wheels.
For racing - Bontrager Race X Lite "Hardcase". Not a racing tire for most people (these are apparently the tires that Lance and Astana used as training tires a couple years ago). But have never, ever had a flat with them (knocking on wood now). Before each "A" race I got a new set and did one ride with them to make sure no problems.
Given my paranoia, I also do not use latex tubes...my understanding is that they lose pressure rather quickly.
All that said, I made some changes this year. Given my plethora of Race X Lite HC tires that are so barely used, I plan to train on those tires this year. I am also seriously contemplating getting a set of "racing quality" tires (i.e. like the ones on the first page of the PDF or the ones everyone always talks about) for some of my races this year. For my first HIM I will probably stick with what I have done in the past but for subsequent races I may try to buy a little speed. I really want to go sub-2:20 at the Chicago Tri this year but it is a "B" race so perfect for trying some high-risk new things like light tires, latex tubes (and stuff like going sockless, which I have also never done).
Frankly I really like Hayes' comment above that he trains on racing tires and latex tubes. If I did this it would give me the confidence (or not) that I wouldn't be highly prone to flatting in a race. I may try that out, thanks for the idea Hayes.
Cheers,
Matt
No, they are the same...
This discussion of using really crap rolling tires to ward off flats kinda makes me sick to my stomach. Al Morrison [the guy who tests every tire for BTR and as likely the most knowlegeable person on the planet when it comes to this stuff] recently posted on ST that the difference between conti and vittoria tubbies in an IM is 10 minutes for a 5:30 person. Forget gatorskins, that would be insane. Also, reading some of this you would think that we are talking about "fragile" tires for race day. Not remotely true they are just not made for commuting and riding through thorns in strange parts of arizona etc. IM race courses are swept and super heavily ridden leading up to races. You are not going to be running over thorns, glass etc. If you do you will flat no matter what you are riding on. Also, NO ONE HAS EVER THROWN TACKS on an IM race course, more superstitious nonsense that gets repeated enough so that people think it happened. Always happened to a friend of a friend...
Further, latex tubes are not easier to flat than butyl ones, actually it is the oppisate for the same reasons why they roll better. Are they slightly more difficult to install, meaning you have to pay attention that they are not pinched between the bead and the rim, yep. Does that make any difference, no? Do you need to make sure that does not happen when putting on any tire ever, yep? Plenty of jackasses get that wrong with butyl tires all the time. You know the tires you hear poppoing in transition, yep, those are the ones that are installed wrong, it has nothing to do with them heating up and popping, more wives tale LBS nonsense.
Ok so if your armored tires and butyl tubes roll say, 10 minutes slower than my good ones, and I get a flat and it takes me 3-5 minutes to change it out on the road, how much time did you save?
Feel free, challenge me on any of this, lets see it...you can post my buddy told me or n=1 stories and I will take the time to link actual data.
Sorry for the rant...If it makes you feel better to use really bad tires and tubes on race day, feel free. I promise to wait around for you to finish, no longer how it takes. I will even save you a beer.
Not to scare, but not true...someone just did it at LoneStar 70.3 in Galveston just a few weeks ago. And I heard from an elite that it happend at IMLOU, so not 3rd or 4th person, just 2nd person.
Same crap is said anytime 2 people get a flat...lets see a pic of the tack. How many flatted, etc. I saw the discussion of it after Galveston, breif and unsubstantiated nonsense. Same thing with Louisville, and Moo and Kona. FWIW, wivestales are not more credible when they come from "elites" or "pros" than when they do from slow people.
Also, tacks will go through gatorskins
TOTAL SPECULATION but I also think the reason race tires/latex tubes get a bad wrap for flats is installation issues. Race wheels like zipps and tires like zipp/vittoria/michelin, tend to fit VERY tight. Many people wait until the day or two before a race and then put the tires/tubes on for the first time or do this on a rented wheel in the parking lot of a race expo or hotel and just force the tire on. My guess is that many pinch flats are caused one of these reasons and the person finds out they pinched the tube at 20 miles into their ironman ride. This is why I always do my final RR with my race tires on race wheels. When I was new at cycling I go a ton of flats mainly becuase of two reasons, I sucked at putting tires on and I didn't check the tire for what caused the flat before putting a new tube in.
In the past I haven't really paid much attention to tire and tube choice for racing. I used good, new tires and the tubes I always used. But now, three years later and three years smarter, I'm definitely going to dig into this and other attention to detail stuff before IMWI:
For IMCDA'08, all of my RR's and race day were at 216-217w Pnorm. In my mind, there is a WORLD of difference between a 212w and 220w Pnorm, just that narrow 10w range. I worked very, very hard to get there and the thought of getting/saving 3-5 or more watts just from better equipment selection, a pristine drive train, etc is huge. I know just how hard it is to earn those last 3-5w and, frankly, I think I'd rather buy them for the ~$125 for new tires and tubes
Rich,
I am with you in terms of not giving away watts. Never felt like I had any extra not to worry about. I will make it easy on you for WI unless there is some new offering or round of tests. Specialized Mondo Open Tubulars [they are clinchers]
http://www.specialized.com/us/en/bc...spid=57650
Best clincher tested:
http://www.biketechreview.com/tires...g_rev9.pdf
As you have a front Hed 3 you will want the more narrow one for aero reasons. 21 up front, 23 in the back.
As far as tubes the Bontrager Latex ones seem like they are the easiest to get these days, I have never had a problem with the michelin or vittoria ones either.
PSI for a little peep like you will be just around 110 if you think the Zipp and or Michelin people know anything about PSI and rolling resistence.
Next time we race however I am thinking that you should be sporting tufo's pumped to 180 psi, oh and bring that 39/21 combo you had a few years ago in LP.
Awesome, thanks, I'll revisit this thread. Yep, I think my soul is still on Whiteface somewhere, stappled to that 21t. That sucked, bad.
I'm not immune to dispensing terrible drivel that I have read before. Although I may have confused the concept of putting talc on latex tubes to grease the interaction with the rim.
For the record, I have never powdered my butyl tubes.
I have to say I'm a little worried that Chris G is getting a little soft. First he lets Al off the photographic evidence hook (have to say it's widely acknowledged to have happened in the past at IMC - the RD even mentioned it in passing at the pre-race dinner last year). Then, Chris misses the opportunity to say something like "I was referring to races held in peace-loving nations like the USA." Fortunately we appear to have fixed the problem up here by instituting the "Tack Registry" and a "Tack Tax".
(1) Go buy tires that are on the first page of the list. See especially Chris G.'s recommendation.
(2) Install them properly and do 1 race rehearsal ride on them and probably a ride a few days before the race on your race wheels with the race tires to confirm they are installed right.
(3) Use latex tubes, but carryl a butyl spare and a CO2.
(4) Inflate them to the recommendation on the side of the tire.
Yep, that's my take. Hell, if we were to decide on a brand/model of EN-approved tire and tubes, we could probably work a one-time group buy with Wheelbuilder. He sells tires, tubes, etc, I just keep an open tab there and help myself to what I need from the rack...