I have a question regarding how this all fits into the EN definition of work and the whole pace + gps method of run training.... what I'm really asking is if we're suggesting that we slow down and do less work (as EN defines work) on race day if the temps are X to maintain z1 intensity, then wouldn't the same hold true for any given training session at any given intensity?
I'm ceratainly not trying to start a fight here. Besides, that's what this place is all about, right? Not only understanding the what but also the why? Thanks ahead of time for the responses.
Victor (and Matt) - sorry this post flew by me as I was traveling on Monday. There is a lot of food for thought in your question, which is worht exploring. Here are my reactions:
• There are two different uses of pace in the EN world. One is the effort level one needs to put in during training to get the best effect. That is best measured by pace, relative to a 5K or 10K test, rather than by HR. This is based on a lot of research on training methods for single sport athletes, and is pretty standard stuff in that world. See books by Jack Daniels, e.g. The heat app is not intended to be used to modify training practices.This is because most of our more intense training is done in shorter bursts, with resting intervals in between which allows for cooling to take place, and thus we don't really need to go too much slower on intervals of less than, say 40 minutes.
• The other use of pace is during a race (where we want to run for 4 hours plus or minus, at a fairly steady pace), to serve as a brake in order to end up with the best possible finish time. Our coaches have learned over the last decade a simple, elegant, and effective way to help others race at the best effort level on the bike and the run in order to complete the 140.6 in the fastest possible time, without crashing too soon. For many reasons, HR is much less effective than pace in achieving that on the run.
• It's well know that one cannot run as fast in 85F temps as in 55F temps; the question the app tries to answer is: just how much does one need to slow down to avoid bonking prior to 26.2 miles are completed.
• Now, specifically to your assumption that when one is going slower in the heat, one is doing less work. I do not think we do less work when we go slower because it's hot. The problem is, the hotter it gets, the more work our entire system has to do to maintain core body temp below a critical threshold. If we get too hot, we get heat exhaustion, which not only slows us down, but can also kill. The work our body is doing moves somewhat from the muscles powering forward movement to more subtle, but just as energy expensive things such as ingesting and absorbing more fluids; sending those fluids through our blood stream faster (higher HR) to both sweat more and disperse heat at the skin surface through increased skin blood flow; and other stuff which I'm sure is happening at an energy cost, but I'm not smart to specifiy, like kidney and liver and brain functions which help keep us in homeostasis.
The point is, we're working just as hard when it's warmer, but that work is spent cooling us off, not moving us forward, so we have to slow down, one way or the other - either by keeping at the same pace until we break down and have to walk, or just running slower overall, which has less risk of physical damage, and avoids the risk of walking, which really slows one down.
Let me know if that helps with your thinking, or if your question is really about something else?
Hey Matt, I'm waiting on that one too. This is my first season with EN and now that the heat / humidity are on, I'm calculating my daily training paces clearly missing my goals running myself into the ground. Last long run of this week I tried just an RPE run/interval and still had to chop up the 1000s pick ups into bite sized 200s and still melted at the end. I like numbers like the rest of us and the above reflects a training day, throw in a S/B and then .... where am I with a number / goal ?
I did EM last year got off the bike ran less than 3 min and my HR was OFF the charts .... lots of walking that day for most of us over 100 degrees, that of course was pre-EN without a clue to race execution.
P said add 3 " to each 5 degree increment, so I tried and my heart rate downloaded after the run looks like I wish my stock portfolio would look entering into Z6 , if there is such a thing.
Good stuff Al. Thanks a lot. Yes, that answers my question. One thing you said make particular sense. No need to slow down in training because our MP, HMP, and FTP intervals are short and followed by cool down.
The Book talks about work strictly in terms of muscle recruitment. The faster the pace, the more muscle fibers are recruited (the whole slow/intermediate/fast twitch thing). I think I hear you suggesting that the more work required by other than muscles as a result of higher temps on race day, the less work we can ask the muscles to do (i.e., we've got to slow down). And yes, temperature ALWAYS affects the amount of work that systems other than muscles do but less so in training than in racing (especially IM). Therefore, the degree to which we have to slow down is less in training than it is in racing.
Am I hearing your correctly? Hope so, cause this makes total sense to me.
wow, first time I saw this. R we going to have a calculator for the team to use to adjust our numbers? I am not good with graphs.
Brenda, Yes, we will have the application available to the EN team. The app is in with the EN Web site wizard and when I checked a week ago it was down 2 in the work priority. You will be able to get your pace by hour of the run based on your vDOT and temperatures forecast for the race.
I'm doing an Ironman on Sunday (Challenge Roth)....the race is expected to be fairly hot (25-26C)... My latest Vdot result was 57 - run in an estimated (15-18C)
What kind of 'damage' should I expect the heat to have on my race pace?
Bo, I will get you an intial set of number tomorrow an then Saturday based on the Sunday forcast will give you an update. Than race is on my to do list! I look forward to the race report. You will rock it EN style !!!!!!
I'm doing an Ironman on Sunday (Challenge Roth)....the race is expected to be fairly hot (25-26C)... My latest Vdot result was 57 - run in an estimated (15-18C)
What kind of 'damage' should I expect the heat to have on my race pace?
Bo, here is the initial view of the temperature impact. Your HUGE vDOT gets you off the course faster than most. This is part of what reduces the impact to ~ 6 %. I will give an update on Saturday with the current forecast. Note that the first hour has 30 seconds added to the pace. You would drop to hour 2 pace after you hit 6 miles.
ANy chance you can run the numbers like you did for Eagleman. Muncie is looking to be warmer than forecasted earlier this week. Hitting 80 by noon and a high of 88. Dew Points look to be in the low 70's. I don't start until 9am and probably won't be on the run much before 1pm. It seems based on the Eagleman, with my VDOT, I am adding about 1 minute per mile...
ANy chance you can run the numbers like you did for Eagleman. Muncie is looking to be warmer than forecasted earlier this week. Hitting 80 by noon and a high of 88. Dew Points look to be in the low 70's. I don't start until 9am and probably won't be on the run much before 1pm. It seems based on the Eagleman, with my VDOT, I am adding about 1 minute per mile...
Jeff, Sorry I was traveling yesterday, I see the race is this morning. Sorrow I missed the window. Best of luck today – race well!!!
No worries - took the 9:15 and tried it and generally worked out fine. Started closer to 9:45 and then dialed it down. Ended with a 9:30 average but while running stayed around 9:00-9:15 and felt under control. No doubt I would have exploded in 4-5 miles if I tried for my normal pace. Thankfully the DP was around 60 and dropped into the mid 50's during the latter stages of the run. If it would have been more humid (DP >70) it would have been even more carnage on the run course.
Just wondering if you have any info on the reverse of this. What I mean is testing and training in heat and then racing when it is cooler? In this situation would you adjust your VDOT for the large temp difference and then use that VDOT for your race pace (adjusting for any temp impact on race day of course) - or is that being a bit risky and better not to adjust VDOT quite so much?
I am doing IM Regensburg in 4 weeks, going on last years history the temps should hopefully be in the early to mid 20'sC (around 70-75F with dew point around 50F). As I live in the tropics I test and train all year round in 28-32C (around 86-90F with dew point around 78-80F - yes we get close to 100% humidity in the mornings ).
In the past I have noticed can run easier and faster when get to a cooler climate, especially with lower humidity. Would like to put a bit more science around it though and better estimates than my WAGNER method...
Several of us have HIMs in Wisconsin next weekend Racine next Saturday(high 87) or Door County (high 86). Door is starting waves from 8-9 am. Racine is usually earlier. Is the calculator available yet so we can do some dialing in?
Just wondering if you have any info on the reverse of this. What I mean is testing and training in heat and then racing when it is cooler? In this situation would you adjust your VDOT for the large temp difference and then use that VDOT for your race pace (adjusting for any temp impact on race day of course) - or is that being a bit risky and better not to adjust VDOT quite so much?
I am doing IM Regensburg in 4 weeks, going on last years history the temps should hopefully be in the early to mid 20'sC (around 70-75F with dew point around 50F). As I live in the tropics I test and train all year round in 28-32C (around 86-90F with dew point around 78-80F - yes we get close to 100% humidity in the mornings ).
In the past I have noticed can run easier and faster when get to a cooler climate, especially with lower humidity. Would like to put a bit more science around it though and better estimates than my WAGNER method...
Would welcome your thoughts and recommendations.
Cheers!
Kevin, From the research that I has seen, yes training in heat and gaining the benefits of heat acclimatization do provide a performance boost in cooler temperatures. The following is an Abstract form one paper on this topic.
This study examined the impact of heat acclimation on improving exercise performance in cool and hot environments. Twelve trained cyclists performed tests of maximal aerobic power (VO2max), time-trial performance, and lactate threshold, in both cool [13°C, 30% relative humidity (RH)] and hot (38°C, 30% RH) environments before and after a 10-day heat acclimation (~50% VO2max in 40°C) program. The hot and cool condition VO2max and lactate threshold tests were both preceded by either warm (41°C) water or thermoneutral (34°C) water immersion to induce hyperthermia (0.8-1.0°C) or sustain normothermia, respectively. Eight matched control subjects completed the same exercise tests in the same environments before and after 10 days of identical exercise in a cool (13°C) environment. Heat acclimation increased VO2max by 5% in cool (66.8 ± 2.1 vs. 70.2 ± 2.3 ml·kg(-1)·min(-1), P = 0.004) and by 8% in hot (55.1 ± 2.5 vs. 59.6 ± 2.0 ml·kg(-1)·min(-1), P = 0.007) conditions. Heat acclimation improved time-trial performance by 6% in cool (879.8 ± 48.5 vs. 934.7 ± 50.9 kJ, P = 0.005) and by 8% in hot (718.7 ± 42.3 vs. 776.2 ± 50.9 kJ, P = 0.014) conditions. Heatacclimation increased power output at lactate threshold by 5% in cool (3.88 ± 0.82 vs. 4.09 ± 0.76 W/kg, P = 0.002) and by 5% in hot (3.45 ± 0.80 vs. 3.60 ± 0.79 W/kg, P < 0.001) conditions. Heat acclimation increased plasma volume (6.5 ± 1.5%) and maximal cardiac output in cool and hot conditions (9.1 ± 3.4% and 4.5 ± 4.6%, respectively). The control group had no changes in VO2max, time-trial performance, lactate threshold, or any physiological parameters. These data demonstrate that heat acclimation improves aerobic exercise performance in temperate-cool conditions and provide the scientific basis for employing heat acclimation to augment physical training programs.
Relative to the question on adjusting vDOT levels for temperature. I will say that the Heat Pacing App team did not have a unified view on this. My view is based on my interpretation of guidance from the coaches for both vDOT and FTP tests, this is to find a course ( and conditions) that are repeatable for testing. I think we all can agree that temperature is shown to impact run pace capability. In my mind this is why the Daniels table I use has a temperature impact table in it. http://www.electricblues.com/runpro.html
Ok back up to the 50,000 foot level for a second. If you are going to compare results from one test to another and a 3rd, 4th … you want to see the relative change in one key variable, you need to keep the other variables constant if possible. So in doing vDOT tests, if you keep the temperature a constant then the changes in vDOT are most likely directly a factor of your fitness.
Soooo – in my view using a constant temperature ( ~60 degrees) reference point for all vDOT tests helps the tests give a better indication of fitness change and pacing capabilities. To do this for tests performed in temperatures other than 60 degrees I uses the temp adjustment table in the vDOT table I referenced above to get back to a pace and vDOT that would have been at 60 degrees.
The alternative view in the team was that adjusting your vDOT for temperature was double counting the impact of temperature. Now this discussion was in context of high temp race situations.
Posted By John Dannenfeldt on 11 Jul 2011 02:15 PM
Hi, all.
Several of us have HIMs in Wisconsin next weekend Racine next Saturday(high 87) or Door County (high 86). Door is starting waves from 8-9 am. Racine is usually earlier. Is the calculator available yet so we can do some dialing in?
John
John,
The Heat app was developed with full IM race data. We have a guess on how this may apply to HIM’s. I checked with the EN web site developer and it is not yet ready for prime time. What I can do forn now is let me know the date and location for a race and I will post a table of overall % impact vs vDOT for the race based on the Full IM and then add a best guess column for HIM impact.
@Matt, not the most comparible data but I'll share my recent HIM expirence just in case it helps you (or others) adjust this for HIM.
2011 Oceanside - very fast run course. Temp was in the mid 60s, overcast, low humidity. I averaged a 6:06 pace after a 2:30 .82 bike.
2011 Munice - rolling hills course, not horrible but very few flat sections. Temp was in the upper 80s, direct sun, but humidity was not to bad. I averaged a 6:31 pace after a 2:09 .85 bike.
Both runs were almost even splits and I felt they were both executed very well for the day.
So, a little more than 20 degrees warmer, direct/hot sun, and constand rolling hills cost me :25 a mile or about 9.3%. My ***assumption*** is I lost about 4% due to the rolling hills and another about 4% due to the weather. Again, not scientific by any means but some real world data.
One thing for sure here is that the temps don't change very much at all... it's always pretty warm with high humidity, pretty much Ground-Hog day everyday.
Will adjust my VDOT back to 60 degree temp and then from that decrease pace based on projected temps - hopefully this great app gets done before race day so I can do the numbers on heat impact.
@ Matt Thanks for the data – Assume FAST racing!!! You commented that you felt like you lost maybe 4% due to the hills. My brain is with you on those numbers. But in some of the pacing research I done I found that Hills, if paced correctly should have a pretty small net impact on overall pace. See the following article on the impact of hills.
Check the spreadsheet out at the following link for some great work done my Greg Maclin on the impacts of terrain, altitude and # of turns for many marathon courses. The Marathon Course Time Perdictor http://mymarathonpace.com/Running_Calculators.html
See the info TAB for the assumptions he uses. You had to get into some nasty hilly courses for the net impact of terrain to be more than 1 %. What this told me is I need to learn to run hills better. The main thing the paper pointed to is people run up the hill to hard and not fast enough down the hill. – Where have we heard this before?
We may want start a new thread on running hills. I think Al T. is one of our best at this.
Thanks for the link Matt, I saved it to read later tonight. I did try to relax and take the uphills easy, but I bet you are right and I bet that I did run the downhils fast even as I was just cruising the downhill and not really leaning forward all the way and accelerating. Thanks for the reminder to really take advantage of those like on the bike.
This terrain was not bad at all, it was just rolling enough to make it hard to settle into a pace, but there were no real climbs or descents, so my 4% is probably an overstatement. Looks like I may have to go back next year now to try again ;-)
Hey would you kind WSM folks be willing to help a big bald brother out for a race this time next week? Placid next Sunday, too far out for specific forecasts but as of now they are predicting range from 55 overnight/early am to 79 late in afternoon. May bode well for us, but after Eagleman I have a new respect for your data and would love some guidance in backing off my pace in the heat other than just "run slower". I'm 6'0", down to 203 lbs, Aries My outdoor VDot of 44 comes from 5/1 (where I weighed 7 lbs more), over a flat 10 mile road race in 70-75 degree conditions, pacing at avg 7:42 min/mi which yields an EP in the DataTool of 9:26 min/mi. So, without temp adjustments I know I'm basically running 6 straight 10 minute miles right out of T2 - but I'd LOVE to know how to adjust the pace based on temps! As always, thank you all in advance for your time. This will be my first Ironman!
Comments
Thanks for crunching those numbers. I will keep it in mind for when I'm doing Eagleman this weekend.
Victor (and Matt) - sorry this post flew by me as I was traveling on Monday. There is a lot of food for thought in your question, which is worht exploring. Here are my reactions:
• There are two different uses of pace in the EN world. One is the effort level one needs to put in during training to get the best effect. That is best measured by pace, relative to a 5K or 10K test, rather than by HR. This is based on a lot of research on training methods for single sport athletes, and is pretty standard stuff in that world. See books by Jack Daniels, e.g. The heat app is not intended to be used to modify training practices.This is because most of our more intense training is done in shorter bursts, with resting intervals in between which allows for cooling to take place, and thus we don't really need to go too much slower on intervals of less than, say 40 minutes.
• The other use of pace is during a race (where we want to run for 4 hours plus or minus, at a fairly steady pace), to serve as a brake in order to end up with the best possible finish time. Our coaches have learned over the last decade a simple, elegant, and effective way to help others race at the best effort level on the bike and the run in order to complete the 140.6 in the fastest possible time, without crashing too soon. For many reasons, HR is much less effective than pace in achieving that on the run.
• It's well know that one cannot run as fast in 85F temps as in 55F temps; the question the app tries to answer is: just how much does one need to slow down to avoid bonking prior to 26.2 miles are completed.
• Now, specifically to your assumption that when one is going slower in the heat, one is doing less work. I do not think we do less work when we go slower because it's hot. The problem is, the hotter it gets, the more work our entire system has to do to maintain core body temp below a critical threshold. If we get too hot, we get heat exhaustion, which not only slows us down, but can also kill. The work our body is doing moves somewhat from the muscles powering forward movement to more subtle, but just as energy expensive things such as ingesting and absorbing more fluids; sending those fluids through our blood stream faster (higher HR) to both sweat more and disperse heat at the skin surface through increased skin blood flow; and other stuff which I'm sure is happening at an energy cost, but I'm not smart to specifiy, like kidney and liver and brain functions which help keep us in homeostasis.
The point is, we're working just as hard when it's warmer, but that work is spent cooling us off, not moving us forward, so we have to slow down, one way or the other - either by keeping at the same pace until we break down and have to walk, or just running slower overall, which has less risk of physical damage, and avoids the risk of walking, which really slows one down.
Let me know if that helps with your thinking, or if your question is really about something else?
Last long run of this week I tried just an RPE run/interval and still had to chop up the 1000s pick ups into bite sized 200s and still melted at the end.
I like numbers like the rest of us and the above reflects a training day, throw in a S/B and then .... where am I with a number / goal ?
I did EM last year got off the bike ran less than 3 min and my HR was OFF the charts .... lots of walking that day for most of us over 100 degrees, that of course was pre-EN without a clue to race execution.
P said add 3 " to each 5 degree increment, so I tried and my heart rate downloaded after the run looks like I wish my stock portfolio would look entering into Z6 , if there is such a thing.
So .... yeah what Victor said....
Good stuff Al. Thanks a lot. Yes, that answers my question. One thing you said make particular sense. No need to slow down in training because our MP, HMP, and FTP intervals are short and followed by cool down.
The Book talks about work strictly in terms of muscle recruitment. The faster the pace, the more muscle fibers are recruited (the whole slow/intermediate/fast twitch thing). I think I hear you suggesting that the more work required by other than muscles as a result of higher temps on race day, the less work we can ask the muscles to do (i.e., we've got to slow down). And yes, temperature ALWAYS affects the amount of work that systems other than muscles do but less so in training than in racing (especially IM). Therefore, the degree to which we have to slow down is less in training than it is in racing.
Am I hearing your correctly? Hope so, cause this makes total sense to me.
@ Victor - You got it - your paraphrase sounds like what I was trying to say!
x2 @ Jonathan
Brenda, Yes, we will have the application available to the EN team. The app is in with the EN Web site wizard and when I checked a week ago it was down 2 in the work priority. You will be able to get your pace by hour of the run based on your vDOT and temperatures forecast for the race.
What kind of 'damage' should I expect the heat to have on my race pace?
Bo, here is the initial view of the temperature impact. Your HUGE vDOT gets you off the course faster than most. This is part of what reduces the impact to ~ 6 %. I will give an update on Saturday with the current forecast. Note that the first hour has 30 seconds added to the pace. You would drop to hour 2 pace after you hit 6 miles.
Bo
ANy chance you can run the numbers like you did for Eagleman. Muncie is looking to be warmer than forecasted earlier this week. Hitting 80 by noon and a high of 88. Dew Points look to be in the low 70's. I don't start until 9am and probably won't be on the run much before 1pm. It seems based on the Eagleman, with my VDOT, I am adding about 1 minute per mile...
Bo, I looked up the current forecast for tomorrow’s race is the same as posted above. Best of luck and execution on you race day!
Perfect - thanks for your help...
No worries - took the 9:15 and tried it and generally worked out fine. Started closer to 9:45 and then dialed it down. Ended with a 9:30 average but while running stayed around 9:00-9:15 and felt under control. No doubt I would have exploded in 4-5 miles if I tried for my normal pace. Thankfully the DP was around 60 and dropped into the mid 50's during the latter stages of the run. If it would have been more humid (DP >70) it would have been even more carnage on the run course.
Matt,
Just wondering if you have any info on the reverse of this. What I mean is testing and training in heat and then racing when it is cooler? In this situation would you adjust your VDOT for the large temp difference and then use that VDOT for your race pace (adjusting for any temp impact on race day of course) - or is that being a bit risky and better not to adjust VDOT quite so much?
I am doing IM Regensburg in 4 weeks, going on last years history the temps should hopefully be in the early to mid 20'sC (around 70-75F with dew point around 50F). As I live in the tropics I test and train all year round in 28-32C (around 86-90F with dew point around 78-80F - yes we get close to 100% humidity in the mornings
).
In the past I have noticed can run easier and faster when get to a cooler climate, especially with lower humidity. Would like to put a bit more science around it though and better estimates than my WAGNER method...
Would welcome your thoughts and recommendations.
Cheers!
Hi, all.
Several of us have HIMs in Wisconsin next weekend Racine next Saturday(high 87) or Door County (high 86). Door is starting waves from 8-9 am. Racine is usually earlier. Is the calculator available yet so we can do some dialing in?
John
John,
2011 Oceanside - very fast run course. Temp was in the mid 60s, overcast, low humidity. I averaged a 6:06 pace after a 2:30 .82 bike.
2011 Munice - rolling hills course, not horrible but very few flat sections. Temp was in the upper 80s, direct sun, but humidity was not to bad. I averaged a 6:31 pace after a 2:09 .85 bike.
Both runs were almost even splits and I felt they were both executed very well for the day.
So, a little more than 20 degrees warmer, direct/hot sun, and constand rolling hills cost me :25 a mile or about 9.3%. My ***assumption*** is I lost about 4% due to the rolling hills and another about 4% due to the weather. Again, not scientific by any means but some real world data.
One thing for sure here is that the temps don't change very much at all... it's always pretty warm with high humidity, pretty much Ground-Hog day everyday.
Will adjust my VDOT back to 60 degree temp and then from that decrease pace based on projected temps - hopefully this great app gets done before race day so I can do the numbers on heat impact.
Thanks again, cheers
@ Matt Thanks for the data – Assume FAST racing!!! You commented that you felt like you lost maybe 4% due to the hills. My brain is with you on those numbers. But in some of the pacing research I done I found that Hills, if paced correctly should have a pretty small net impact on overall pace. See the following article on the impact of hills.
Thanks for the link Matt, I saved it to read later tonight. I did try to relax and take the uphills easy, but I bet you are right and I bet that I did run the downhils fast even as I was just cruising the downhill and not really leaning forward all the way and accelerating. Thanks for the reminder to really take advantage of those like on the bike.
This terrain was not bad at all, it was just rolling enough to make it hard to settle into a pace, but there were no real climbs or descents, so my 4% is probably an overstatement. Looks like I may have to go back next year now to try again ;-)
Hey would you kind WSM folks be willing to help a big bald brother out for a race this time next week? Placid next Sunday, too far out for specific forecasts but as of now they are predicting range from 55 overnight/early am to 79 late in afternoon. May bode well for us, but after Eagleman I have a new respect for your data and would love some guidance in backing off my pace in the heat other than just "run slower". I'm 6'0", down to 203 lbs, Aries
My outdoor VDot of 44 comes from 5/1 (where I weighed 7 lbs more), over a flat 10 mile road race in 70-75 degree conditions, pacing at avg 7:42 min/mi which yields an EP in the DataTool of 9:26 min/mi. So, without temp adjustments I know I'm basically running 6 straight 10 minute miles right out of T2 - but I'd LOVE to know how to adjust the pace based on temps! As always, thank you all in advance for your time. This will be my first Ironman!
Matt - I am interested too for IMLP. I seem to suffer badly from temps in the upper 70's and above.
Accuweather and Intellecast both have mostly sunny and 80 - 82; humidity around 60%. NWS and Wunderground aren't quite there yet (still too far out).
My vDot is 46, done as 5K on at track; 5/26 @ 7 PM; 52*; no sun and no wind; 156 lbs; 5' 10"
Race weight 153 lbs
Having a delta to account for heat would be very helpful to me.
Thanks for all your work in the development of what seems to be a most valueable tool.