William/Al, I might give Newtons another shot this off-season. I really do want to become more of a forefoot runner because (for the limited time I can do it) it is more efficient.
Just one more thought on this ... if you're racing in a pair of lightweight flats but are carrying 5lbs of Racebelt fluids in a well-supported IM, you're dead to me.
Ughhh... I just spent over an hour writing about my experience moving from heavy (10oz+) shoes to minimal (7 - 8oz) shoes and then when I hit submit it asked me to log in again and my entire write up was lost. Sorry... When I feel the energy to spend another hour doing the write up I'll post it.
Quick summary:
I'm having great success running exclusively in 7 - 8oz shoes and my volume has never been bigger (I'm currently training for White River 50).
I bought a pair of Nike Lunar Elite+ (I think) in NYC this weekend, yo
The accommodate my orthotics. I walked a ton in them Saturday afternoon (no problems), went for a very short run with them on Sunday (no problems) and walked much more on Sunday (still no problems). I just wasn't motivated to do my run (intervals on the schedule) yesterday after my flight home and will take them for a 5-6 mile spin this evening on some known courses. Curious to see the difference.
Glad to hear some folks that are very pleased with Zoots.
I'll try not to be too pro zoot but a few thoughts to share: - Unfortunately due to the size of Zoot and their manufacturing limitations they do not make narrow or wide shoes yet. Folks like Rich that absolutely need a wide or narrow shoe may not be happy with Zoot shoes. - Also, due to their size it is difficult for Zoot to keep a large inventory of shoes. Their top selling shoe (TT4) is already completely sold out of the year from the warehouse and limited to what dealers have on hand. They are ramping up production again next year and also looking into getting some more made this year. - Zoots are probably the lightest shoe with most stability/support you can buy. This because they attach the upper to the sole differently then standard shoe companies, this uses significantly less foam and glue. The result is that the heaviest zoot shoe is still in the 10oz range and that is a full stability shoe with a 23 mm heel. The lightest shoes are closer to 6oz and still have more support than a traditional race flat. Another difference is that with less foam and less glue the shoes do not absorb nearly as much water which is important when you are spilling 2 cups of water on yourself every mile. - The sweet spot in the zoot line for most people is the TT4.0 and Tempo4.0 as they are light enough to be full out race shoes for most people with all the tri features but they have enough support (and stability in the Tempo) to be a daily trainer as well. - If the high heel tab of the Zoot bother you, check out the 2011 run line such as the otec/owva/kapalini as they have a lower cut heal. All 2012 shoes including the tri line will have a new version of the lower cut heel tab with a new pull tab that is much easier to grab. - If you want a minimalist shoe to race in you really should check on the current Ultra Speed or early next year watch for the Swift and Speed 2.0.
If you want more info, the director of footwear at Zoot just put up the first two blog posts on their shoes and I believe he has two more posts coming soon.
If you managed to make it thise far through my sales pitch I do have 25% off coupons if you want to try a pair... just PM me.
Also late to the party, but I thought I'd chime in with my 0.02 worth. Take it for what it is: an n of 1 experience.
Background: I've been running pretty consistently for 30+ years. Worked in a running shoe store in the mid 80's, and we were pretty focused on fitting the correct shoe to the persons characteristics (videotaped customers footstrike on the treadmill; straighter last for flatter feet, etc.) so I learned quite a bit about this. And I have run in everything from heavy clunky shoes to shoes with orthotics to minimalist shoes.
I used to run in orthotics. I do have funky shaped feet, and had some foot issues about 10 years ago. I ran in the orthotics for awhile, but I hated them, and stopped using them for running; I still use them for walking around, though. I used Superfeet instead for awhile, but moved away from them, too.
20 years ago, I ran in the original Asics Gel-Lytes, as well as the Nike Air Anodyne. These were fairly lightweight shoes, with just a little bit of support, and I loved them. Of course, in both companies' infinite wisdom, they kept "improving" them by making them bigger and more supportive, and I stopped using them. Over time, I kept trying to find a shoe with similar characteristics, but just as Americans keep getting bigger, so did the shoes. The whole minimalist movement several years ago helped to reverse this, and we're finding more and more shoe companies are going back to less shoe, which, in my opinion, is better.
Currently, I'm running in Newton Motions (their stability trainer), Saucony Mirages, and K-Swiss Kwicky Blade Lights. I started running in the Newtons several years ago. Because I have always been a midfoot runner, there was minimal transition for me, but I still took it gradually in them (over a two week period) and have had no problems with them. As with Al, I just run faster in the Newtons. The Kwickys are new, and I only have a few runs in them, but I really like them. They have a bigger drop than the Mirages or the Newtons, but their forefoot is lower to the ground and they have a very nice transition, so they feel really smooth. The other thing about the K-Swiss shoes is that they are on the wide side, so they fit those of us with duck feet much better.
I think the minimalist shoes are a good trend for most people. But I do think there is a transition period for people, and that transition is based on your individual build, biomechanics, and history. If you've been running in orthotics with a big bulky shoe, that transition is going to take longer than someone who has a naturally biomechanically efficient form. And then there are those who will never be able to use them because of structural issues, either congenital or acquired.
I am about to get my hands on the Kswiss Kwicky Blade Lights as well...struck me as fairly well built up for a light (9oz) shoe. My biggest reservations with lighter shoes in an IM extends beyond Rich's fancy number crunching. I can run fast over the whole marathon, but my form goes to shit at the end. Really bad..as in I might hurt myself while slapping the pavement. More info on this solid post:
Glad to hear some folks that are very pleased with Zoots.
I'll try not to be too pro zoot but a few thoughts to share:
- Unfortunately due to the size of Zoot and their manufacturing limitations they do not make narrow or wide shoes yet. Folks like Rich that absolutely need a wide or narrow shoe may not be happy with Zoot shoes.
- Also, due to their size it is difficult for Zoot to keep a large inventory of shoes. Their top selling shoe (TT4) is already completely sold out of the year from the warehouse and limited to what dealers have on hand. They are ramping up production again next year and also looking into getting some more made this year.
- Zoots are probably the lightest shoe with most stability/support you can buy. This because they attach the upper to the sole differently then standard shoe companies, this uses significantly less foam and glue. The result is that the heaviest zoot shoe is still in the 10oz range and that is a full stability shoe with a 23 mm heel. The lightest shoes are closer to 6oz and still have more support than a traditional race flat. Another difference is that with less foam and less glue the shoes do not absorb nearly as much water which is important when you are spilling 2 cups of water on yourself every mile.
- The sweet spot in the zoot line for most people is the TT4.0 and Tempo4.0 as they are light enough to be full out race shoes for most people with all the tri features but they have enough support (and stability in the Tempo) to be a daily trainer as well.
- If the high heel tab of the Zoot bother you, check out the 2011 run line such as the otec/owva/kapalini as they have a lower cut heal. All 2012 shoes including the tri line will have a new version of the lower cut heel tab with a new pull tab that is much easier to grab.
- If you want a minimalist shoe to race in you really should check on the current Ultra Speed or early next year watch for the Swift and Speed 2.0.
If you want more info, the director of footwear at Zoot just put up the first two blog posts on their shoes and I believe he has two more posts coming soon.
If you managed to make it thise far through my sales pitch I do have 25% off coupons if you want to try a pair... just PM me.
Disclaimer - I test stuff for Zoot :-)
Matt,
Any idea when the 2012 shoes with the lower heal tab will hit the market? I need a new pair of sockless shoes for an upcoming sprint and oly race. I have used Zoots in the past but they rubbed the shit out of my Achilles area so I stopped using them. Body Glide and Aquaphor certainly helped but I'd just as soon not deal with that. I'd hate to buy a pair of TT4.0's now when I know a better version is on its way. Otherwise, I need to figure out if I can run in Brooks T7 sockless.
Glad to hear some folks that are very pleased with Zoots.
I'll try not to be too pro zoot but a few thoughts to share:
- Unfortunately due to the size of Zoot and their manufacturing limitations they do not make narrow or wide shoes yet. Folks like Rich that absolutely need a wide or narrow shoe may not be happy with Zoot shoes.
- Also, due to their size it is difficult for Zoot to keep a large inventory of shoes. Their top selling shoe (TT4) is already completely sold out of the year from the warehouse and limited to what dealers have on hand. They are ramping up production again next year and also looking into getting some more made this year.
- Zoots are probably the lightest shoe with most stability/support you can buy. This because they attach the upper to the sole differently then standard shoe companies, this uses significantly less foam and glue. The result is that the heaviest zoot shoe is still in the 10oz range and that is a full stability shoe with a 23 mm heel. The lightest shoes are closer to 6oz and still have more support than a traditional race flat. Another difference is that with less foam and less glue the shoes do not absorb nearly as much water which is important when you are spilling 2 cups of water on yourself every mile.
- The sweet spot in the zoot line for most people is the TT4.0 and Tempo4.0 as they are light enough to be full out race shoes for most people with all the tri features but they have enough support (and stability in the Tempo) to be a daily trainer as well.
- If the high heel tab of the Zoot bother you, check out the 2011 run line such as the otec/owva/kapalini as they have a lower cut heal. All 2012 shoes including the tri line will have a new version of the lower cut heel tab with a new pull tab that is much easier to grab.
- If you want a minimalist shoe to race in you really should check on the current Ultra Speed or early next year watch for the Swift and Speed 2.0.
If you want more info, the director of footwear at Zoot just put up the first two blog posts on their shoes and I believe he has two more posts coming soon.
If you managed to make it thise far through my sales pitch I do have 25% off coupons if you want to try a pair... just PM me.
Disclaimer - I test stuff for Zoot :-)
Matt,
Any idea when the 2012 shoes with the lower heal tab will hit the market? I need a new pair of sockless shoes for an upcoming sprint and oly race. I have used Zoots in the past but they rubbed the shit out of my Achilles area so I stopped using them. Body Glide and Aquaphor certainly helped but I'd just as soon not deal with that. I'd hate to buy a pair of TT4.0's now when I know a better version is on its way. Otherwise, I need to figure out if I can run in Brooks T7 sockless.
Yes, but it's going to help you out :-(
The Spring 2012 line will be available right around March 1st, 2012. They are not even in production yet and are still in the final phase or wear testing right now.
If you need something neutral now and the tab on the TT 3 or 4 bugs you, you could go with the OTEC. Although it is about 1 oz heavier than the TT it feels almost the exact same to run it. It has normal laces but I just tie them once and never until them as it is still a one piece barefit upper that you can slide on and off. The reason I say the OTEC is the heal is lower like the 12 shoe will have. The 12 shoes however will have a different tab.
Irronically I actually prefer the high heal tab of the current tri shoes over the lower design of the current run shoes and future tri shoes, but the majority of people want the lower ones.
If it was the heal on the TT 1 or 2 that bugged you then you should give the current TT 4 a try as the material in it was changed and it is much better than the 1 and 2 were.
Otherwise, a good trick that works for many people with the current tt4 or other tri line shoes is to bend the heel tab all the way back and put a binder clip on it for a few days. Then when you put the shoe on it doesn't actually touch your achilies.
If you are only using them for oly and sprint you should really check out the ultra speed. They are almost as light as true race flats (6oz) but have much more support than most race flats. The have the same heel as the TT though.
I am currently in Kinvaras but have been intrigued by Zoot. Given your bias ;<) what would you recommend? Thanks </blockquote>
I don't know much about the Kinvaras, can you share more on them and other shoes that have worked well? Sorry, I don't have time to look them up while at work today.
The Spring 2012 line will be available right around March 1st, 2012. They are not even in production yet and are still in the final phase or wear testing right now.
If you need something neutral now and the tab on the TT 3 or 4 bugs you, you could go with the OTEC. Although it is about 1 oz heavier than the TT it feels almost the exact same to run it. It has normal laces but I just tie them once and never until them as it is still a one piece barefit upper that you can slide on and off. The reason I say the OTEC is the heal is lower like the 12 shoe will have. The 12 shoes however will have a different tab.
Irronically I actually prefer the high heal tab of the current tri shoes over the lower design of the current run shoes and future tri shoes, but the majority of people want the lower ones.
If it was the heal on the TT 1 or 2 that bugged you then you should give the current TT 4 a try as the material in it was changed and it is much better than the 1 and 2 were.
Otherwise, a good trick that works for many people with the current tt4 or other tri line shoes is to bend the heel tab all the way back and put a binder clip on it for a few days. Then when you put the shoe on it doesn't actually touch your achilies.
If you are only using them for oly and sprint you should really check out the ultra speed. They are almost as light as true race flats (6oz) but have much more support than most race flats. The have the same heel as the TT though.
It was the TT2.0 that I had. I might give the 4.0 a shot... if I can find my size.
The Saucony ProGrid Kinvara shoe is a lightweight trainer designed for fast training or racing. Featuring a breathable mesh upper and flexible cushioning, this men's running shoe lets you fly! Heel ProGrid LITE construction absorbs impact, dissipates shock and sets the foot up for a smooth transition. The XT-900 carbon rubber outsole of the Saucony ProGrid Kinvara racing shoe offers exceptional traction without sacrificing durability. Less Details
The Spring 2012 line will be available right around March 1st, 2012. They are not even in production yet and are still in the final phase or wear testing right now.
If you need something neutral now and the tab on the TT 3 or 4 bugs you, you could go with the OTEC. Although it is about 1 oz heavier than the TT it feels almost the exact same to run it. It has normal laces but I just tie them once and never until them as it is still a one piece barefit upper that you can slide on and off. The reason I say the OTEC is the heal is lower like the 12 shoe will have. The 12 shoes however will have a different tab.
Irronically I actually prefer the high heal tab of the current tri shoes over the lower design of the current run shoes and future tri shoes, but the majority of people want the lower ones.
If it was the heal on the TT 1 or 2 that bugged you then you should give the current TT 4 a try as the material in it was changed and it is much better than the 1 and 2 were.
Otherwise, a good trick that works for many people with the current tt4 or other tri line shoes is to bend the heel tab all the way back and put a binder clip on it for a few days. Then when you put the shoe on it doesn't actually touch your achilies.
If you are only using them for oly and sprint you should really check out the ultra speed. They are almost as light as true race flats (6oz) but have much more support than most race flats. The have the same heel as the TT though.
It was the TT2.0 that I had. I might give the 4.0 a shot... if I can find my size.
That makes sense the tt2 had stiffer heel tab area and also was a little wider. It cut me up as well. The TT3 and TT4 do not do that to me at all... no body glide or anything needed.
Yeah, finding them will likely be an issue. The TT4.0s sold out in April I believe, so the only ones left are at dealers. Last I heard, the were looking to have more 2011 TT4.0s made but didn't have a timeline on when they would be available for sale. And as I mentioned the 2012 product goes starts to go into production later this month.
The TT is the top selling shoe and they have litterally doubled the number they make every year for 4 years now and still sell out. They will be making twice as many TT5s for next year in hopes not to sell out.
@David - To make a long story short... go TT4.0 if you want a tri shoe or OTEC if you want a running shoe. If you want the long boring version read below.
The Kinvara is a lightweight neutral shoe which is what most Zoot shoes are and what I run in. Assuming The unqiue aspect I see on that shoe is that is has a 17mm forefoot height and 21mm heel height (for a drop of 4mm)... this pretty much forces you to adapt to a forefoot or midfoot strike. Traditional running shoes have a drop of 12-14mm, Zoot has gone to a 10mm drop on the majority of there shoes to also encourage this but not as agressively as that shoe. Newton also has less drop then traditional shoes, however it's hard to measure the newtons due to the lugs. Sorry for the rambleing but the Zoot shoes will likely feel somewhere inbetween the Kinvara and a more traditional running shoe.
As far as which Zoot shoe you should go with, that depends on what you are looking for:
TRI SHOES for racing:
I race 70.3 and shorter in Ultra Speeds which are a little over 6 oz and don't aborb water due to having no foam and minimal glue in them. Most shoes can double there weight when wet, the Zoot typically absorb less than 25% of their weight when wet. toe/heel is 7mm/17mm. This shoe feels like a race flat but with some support thanks to the carbonspan bridge. It's a great race shoe but most people can't run in it 100% of the time. I have but I can also run in five fingers.
Race 3.0 would be the next step up with a little more support and a 13mm/23mm profile. My guess is this will feel the most like the Kinvara. I don't run in this shoe all that much as I typically go lighter or heavier and this one gets lost in the middle to me. I may race IM in it though. My last ironman (and open marathon) was in the Race 2.0.
TT 4.0 is the number one selling shoe from Zoot for a reason. It's just under 9oz but actually feels very light to run in. 15/25mm profile. It has a very comfortable upper that adjusts well to different types of feet. For a long time this was my go to shoe that could be used for everything from speed work to high volume training.
If you wanted more of a running/training shoe (i.e. normal laces and lower heel tab) then check out the OTEC. I have been using this shoe a lot lately for training as it has the same feel as running in the TT4 but none of the tri features (speed laces, drainage holes, etc).
Trisports.com actually has some sizes in stock. I normally wear a size 12 in shoes in which I wear socks. They do not have 12's in stock but they do have 11.5's. I'm thinking an 11.5 would work without socks as I'd rather have the shoes somewhat tighter without socks so my foot doesn't slip around as much. I guess I need to find somewhere to try them on. I can't remember the size of my TT2.0's.
For anyone interested, Kelly's Running Warehouse has new Zoot shoes for a good price. Found the TT4.0 for $105, retail is $140. A little research found that website to be affiliated with Road Runner Sports.
I've got about 15-16 miles in this week on the Nike Lunar Elite+. My big toes got a little hot on a 6 mile run on Wednesday so I decided to put the stock insert back in with the orthotic. It's now a little tight, will go up a half size on the next pair, but workable. Ran a hard 7 yesterday with this setup.
Haven't done any formal intervals yet on my personal "track" (measure mile behind my house), just informal, dial in T-pace for mile repeats wherever, so can't really say yet about the speed difference. Feels much less clunky too and red, black, and white shoes match the kit, which is most important....
I am about to get my hands on the Kswiss Kwicky Blade Lights as well...struck me as fairly well built up for a light (9oz) shoe. My biggest reservations with lighter shoes in an IM extends beyond Rich's fancy number crunching. I can run fast over the whole marathon, but my form goes to shit at the end. Really bad..as in I might hurt myself while slapping the pavement. More info on this solid post:
@Chris, I am putting them on tomorrow for the first time...stay tuned!
I'm interested too. I tried the Blade Lights and loved them but they didn't love me. Seriously the most comfortable shoes ever but not enough support for me, even with the orthotics. The Kwicky Blade Lights are stability shoes so I really am tempted to try them.
This thread has definitely caught my attention. Interested in a lighter, faster shoe, but really concerned about trashing my legs, especially after reading the Science of Sport blog. Any thoughts on buying Newtons to help train feet to land mid foot? The negative heel on the shoe appears to almost force mid foot running. I think jumping into a racing flat would just cripple me so I'm hesitant to try it. Any other thoughts on "transition" shoes?
This thread has definitely caught my attention. Interested in a lighter, faster shoe, but really concerned about trashing my legs, especially after reading the Science of Sport blog. Any thoughts on buying Newtons to help train feet to land mid foot? The negative heel on the shoe appears to almost force mid foot running. I think jumping into a racing flat would just cripple me so I'm hesitant to try it. Any other thoughts on "transition" shoes?
Here's the first problem I see with most people making this transition (and it's a common problem across all aspects in this sport): Lack of patience and planning. People talk about making this transition in timeframes of weeks. My idea of making this transition involves more like a year or two. Obviously it depends on your starting point. As I mentioned earlier, I run exclusively in 7 - 8oz shoes now (Karhu Racers for the road and Inov8 F-Lites/Talons for the trails and a little bit in NB MT10s and NB MT101s). However, it took me about 2 years to get where I am today. Yeah, if I did it all over again the transition would have been faster. I made some mistakes along the way but I didn't really have anyone to learn from either.
So, don't think of it as finding some transition shoes. Think more of it as finding a transition plan. My suggestion would be to strengthen the foot and stabilizer muscles first before going out and buying a minimal shoe and running in them ON THE ROAD for even a single mile. Again, this assumes you have no or little experience/history running in a minimal shoe. I'm a big believer that much of what you see today in the way of shoe stability, cushioning, orthotics, etc, as simply being revenue-generating ideas. Therefore, they are merely crutches and prevent you from focusing on what's most fundamentally important when it comes to running.
The best way to strengthen the foot and stabilizer muscles in my opinion is to do the following (you can do these all simultaneously if you want):
1. Go buy something like the NB MT10 (aka Minimus) and wear it a lot. You can go buy those stupid looking Vibram 5-finger things if you want but it's completely unnecessary, imho. The Minimus is more than good enough and I think they're super comfortable too.
2. Jump rope
3. Start by running trails in something like a Inov8, NB MT101 or something similar. Obviously start conservatively (miles) at first. The impact force on trails is reduced significantly and it also improves stabilizer muscle strength very well if you run on technical trails. Again, be careful if you're a fast runner already because you can end up doing a lot of face plants if you run technical trails with rocks and roots. Your sustainable pace will be dictated by the terrain or your technique on that given terrain, not by your fitness.
The right shoe is highly individual so I wouldn't get too caught up into going with a specific brand just because someone on this team had great success. Focus on doing research and choosing a shoe that you believe meets the fundamental needs that you believe are important. I chose Inov8 F-Lites (trail) and Karhu Racers (road) as my primary shoes because I'm also a big proponent of having a low heel:toe ratio. Btw, I spent a ton of money trying to find the right shoe.
Btw, I made the comment earlier that Newtons are evil shoes. Here's why: It came to my attention that about 2 - 3 years ago Newton hired a "PT Specialist" because they were having so many problems/injuries with their sponsored athletes. It appears they tried to keep this very quiet. After receiving certain information, I would stay away from these shoes. I believe there's something fundamentally wrong with them. Just my conclusion. It shouldn't be surprise to anyone who's done their research that there has been a high rate of broken metatarsals from athletes running in these shoes. Now please don't go copying and pasting what I wrote and send it to Newton. I'm only relaying this information because I obviously care about the people on this team.
FYI, I put in about 23 miles on my lightweight Nikes last week, another 4 in a new pair of Asics Nimbus. I noticed a little bit of left ankle pain from the Nikes. Took yesterday off from the legs, no more soreness, stepping out the door for a 2hr long run in the Asics. I plan to switch back and forth between these shoes as I feel I need to.
My experience with Newtons: back in '07 PnI were asked to coach the squad of CEO Challenge athletes going to Kona. The organizer hooked up a sponsorship with Newton and mailed everyone a pair of shoes. He may as well have shipped them a grenade because it instantly injuried about half of the athletes, about 4-5 weeks before Kona. That speaks to the patience required to make a change like this, as Chris discusses.
When I treid Newtons several years ago I experienced pain around my second/thrid metatrsal and even developed some bruising on the top of my foot. I wrote the comany and got very persoanl attention from Danny Abshire and his wife. They sent me a different size shoe for no cost but the problem persisted and I eventually just gave up on them. I was never diagnosed with a stress fracture and was able to run in other shoes. Probably just a matter of time though.
I was reviewing this thread and the big thing that jumps out to me is the majority of people that have successfully switched to lightweight shoes have also done something to focus on build foot strength and improving there running form/mechanics.
Talking about the newest, lightest, shoes is kind of like the new super bikes and us triathletes always want that extra few seconds but please keep in mind that running is a different animal. I know everyone posting to this thread understands this but I just didn't want someone new to see this thread and just go out and try the newest lightest shoes if you are not ready for them. Leave that for the knuckleheads like me that test pre-production shoes as I have an awesome blister right now thanks to going for a 45' run in a prototype shoe ;-)
Also, I strongly believe that changing my running cadence from around 80 to over 90 is the single biggest factor that helped me. At 80 single foot steps per minute it's easy to get sloppy or heal strike, but at over 90 i'm almost always at least midfoot if not forefoot striking. Losing weight and focusing on form seemed to help as well but if the my cadence is high everything seems to fall into place. FWIW, I have also noticed that once I get over 97 I'm pretty much on my toes only and I fatigue easily for long runs. My sweat spot seems to be 95 for running hard and 92 for running easy.
My advice is focus on the things that Al, Bob, Chris, Craig and others have pointed out first, then start to gradually move to lightweight shoes.
Comments
I might give Newtons another shot this off-season. I really do want to become more of a forefoot runner because (for the limited time I can do it) it is more efficient.
Quick summary:
I'm having great success running exclusively in 7 - 8oz shoes and my volume has never been bigger (I'm currently training for White River 50).
Newtons are evil shoes.
Thanks, Chris
I bought a pair of Nike Lunar Elite+ (I think) in NYC this weekend, yo
The accommodate my orthotics. I walked a ton in them Saturday afternoon (no problems), went for a very short run with them on Sunday (no problems) and walked much more on Sunday (still no problems). I just wasn't motivated to do my run (intervals on the schedule) yesterday after my flight home and will take them for a 5-6 mile spin this evening on some known courses. Curious to see the difference.
http://www.sportsscientists.com/2011/06/barefoot-running-shoes-and-born-to-run.html
I'll try not to be too pro zoot but a few thoughts to share:
- Unfortunately due to the size of Zoot and their manufacturing limitations they do not make narrow or wide shoes yet. Folks like Rich that absolutely need a wide or narrow shoe may not be happy with Zoot shoes.
- Also, due to their size it is difficult for Zoot to keep a large inventory of shoes. Their top selling shoe (TT4) is already completely sold out of the year from the warehouse and limited to what dealers have on hand. They are ramping up production again next year and also looking into getting some more made this year.
- Zoots are probably the lightest shoe with most stability/support you can buy. This because they attach the upper to the sole differently then standard shoe companies, this uses significantly less foam and glue. The result is that the heaviest zoot shoe is still in the 10oz range and that is a full stability shoe with a 23 mm heel. The lightest shoes are closer to 6oz and still have more support than a traditional race flat. Another difference is that with less foam and less glue the shoes do not absorb nearly as much water which is important when you are spilling 2 cups of water on yourself every mile.
- The sweet spot in the zoot line for most people is the TT4.0 and Tempo4.0 as they are light enough to be full out race shoes for most people with all the tri features but they have enough support (and stability in the Tempo) to be a daily trainer as well.
- If the high heel tab of the Zoot bother you, check out the 2011 run line such as the otec/owva/kapalini as they have a lower cut heal. All 2012 shoes including the tri line will have a new version of the lower cut heel tab with a new pull tab that is much easier to grab.
- If you want a minimalist shoe to race in you really should check on the current Ultra Speed or early next year watch for the Swift and Speed 2.0.
If you want more info, the director of footwear at Zoot just put up the first two blog posts on their shoes and I believe he has two more posts coming soon.
If you managed to make it thise far through my sales pitch I do have 25% off coupons if you want to try a pair... just PM me.
Disclaimer - I test stuff for Zoot :-)
Background: I've been running pretty consistently for 30+ years. Worked in a running shoe store in the mid 80's, and we were pretty focused on fitting the correct shoe to the persons characteristics (videotaped customers footstrike on the treadmill; straighter last for flatter feet, etc.) so I learned quite a bit about this. And I have run in everything from heavy clunky shoes to shoes with orthotics to minimalist shoes.
I used to run in orthotics. I do have funky shaped feet, and had some foot issues about 10 years ago. I ran in the orthotics for awhile, but I hated them, and stopped using them for running; I still use them for walking around, though. I used Superfeet instead for awhile, but moved away from them, too.
20 years ago, I ran in the original Asics Gel-Lytes, as well as the Nike Air Anodyne. These were fairly lightweight shoes, with just a little bit of support, and I loved them. Of course, in both companies' infinite wisdom, they kept "improving" them by making them bigger and more supportive, and I stopped using them. Over time, I kept trying to find a shoe with similar characteristics, but just as Americans keep getting bigger, so did the shoes. The whole minimalist movement several years ago helped to reverse this, and we're finding more and more shoe companies are going back to less shoe, which, in my opinion, is better.
Currently, I'm running in Newton Motions (their stability trainer), Saucony Mirages, and K-Swiss Kwicky Blade Lights. I started running in the Newtons several years ago. Because I have always been a midfoot runner, there was minimal transition for me, but I still took it gradually in them (over a two week period) and have had no problems with them. As with Al, I just run faster in the Newtons. The Kwickys are new, and I only have a few runs in them, but I really like them. They have a bigger drop than the Mirages or the Newtons, but their forefoot is lower to the ground and they have a very nice transition, so they feel really smooth. The other thing about the K-Swiss shoes is that they are on the wide side, so they fit those of us with duck feet much better.
I think the minimalist shoes are a good trend for most people. But I do think there is a transition period for people, and that transition is based on your individual build, biomechanics, and history. If you've been running in orthotics with a big bulky shoe, that transition is going to take longer than someone who has a naturally biomechanically efficient form. And then there are those who will never be able to use them because of structural issues, either congenital or acquired.
http://www.sportsscientists.com/2011/06/barefoot-running-shoes-and-born-to-run.html
Patrick
Matt,
Any idea when the 2012 shoes with the lower heal tab will hit the market? I need a new pair of sockless shoes for an upcoming sprint and oly race. I have used Zoots in the past but they rubbed the shit out of my Achilles area so I stopped using them. Body Glide and Aquaphor certainly helped but I'd just as soon not deal with that. I'd hate to buy a pair of TT4.0's now when I know a better version is on its way. Otherwise, I need to figure out if I can run in Brooks T7 sockless.
Yes, but it's going to help you out :-(
The Spring 2012 line will be available right around March 1st, 2012. They are not even in production yet and are still in the final phase or wear testing right now.
If you need something neutral now and the tab on the TT 3 or 4 bugs you, you could go with the OTEC. Although it is about 1 oz heavier than the TT it feels almost the exact same to run it. It has normal laces but I just tie them once and never until them as it is still a one piece barefit upper that you can slide on and off. The reason I say the OTEC is the heal is lower like the 12 shoe will have. The 12 shoes however will have a different tab.
Irronically I actually prefer the high heal tab of the current tri shoes over the lower design of the current run shoes and future tri shoes, but the majority of people want the lower ones.
If it was the heal on the TT 1 or 2 that bugged you then you should give the current TT 4 a try as the material in it was changed and it is much better than the 1 and 2 were.
Otherwise, a good trick that works for many people with the current tt4 or other tri line shoes is to bend the heel tab all the way back and put a binder clip on it for a few days. Then when you put the shoe on it doesn't actually touch your achilies.
If you are only using them for oly and sprint you should really check out the ultra speed. They are almost as light as true race flats (6oz) but have much more support than most race flats. The have the same heel as the TT though.
I am currently in Kinvaras but have been intrigued by Zoot. Given your bias ;<) what would you recommend? Thanks
It was the TT2.0 that I had. I might give the 4.0 a shot... if I can find my size.
Matt:
Sorry. Here is more info...
The Saucony ProGrid Kinvara shoe is a lightweight trainer designed for fast training or racing. Featuring a breathable mesh upper and flexible cushioning, this men's running shoe lets you fly! Heel ProGrid LITE construction absorbs impact, dissipates shock and sets the foot up for a smooth transition. The XT-900 carbon rubber outsole of the Saucony ProGrid Kinvara racing shoe offers exceptional traction without sacrificing durability. Less Details
Also available in: White/Red, Citron/Black, White/Black/Slime Green, Black/Yellow, White/Black/Blue
- EVA insole
- EVA midsole
- Mesh upper
Thanks!That makes sense the tt2 had stiffer heel tab area and also was a little wider. It cut me up as well. The TT3 and TT4 do not do that to me at all... no body glide or anything needed.
Yeah, finding them will likely be an issue. The TT4.0s sold out in April I believe, so the only ones left are at dealers. Last I heard, the were looking to have more 2011 TT4.0s made but didn't have a timeline on when they would be available for sale. And as I mentioned the 2012 product goes starts to go into production later this month.
The TT is the top selling shoe and they have litterally doubled the number they make every year for 4 years now and still sell out. They will be making twice as many TT5s for next year in hopes not to sell out.
@David - To make a long story short... go TT4.0 if you want a tri shoe or OTEC if you want a running shoe. If you want the long boring version read below.
The Kinvara is a lightweight neutral shoe which is what most Zoot shoes are and what I run in. Assuming The unqiue aspect I see on that shoe is that is has a 17mm forefoot height and 21mm heel height (for a drop of 4mm)... this pretty much forces you to adapt to a forefoot or midfoot strike. Traditional running shoes have a drop of 12-14mm, Zoot has gone to a 10mm drop on the majority of there shoes to also encourage this but not as agressively as that shoe. Newton also has less drop then traditional shoes, however it's hard to measure the newtons due to the lugs. Sorry for the rambleing but the Zoot shoes will likely feel somewhere inbetween the Kinvara and a more traditional running shoe.
As far as which Zoot shoe you should go with, that depends on what you are looking for:
TRI SHOES for racing:
I race 70.3 and shorter in Ultra Speeds which are a little over 6 oz and don't aborb water due to having no foam and minimal glue in them. Most shoes can double there weight when wet, the Zoot typically absorb less than 25% of their weight when wet. toe/heel is 7mm/17mm. This shoe feels like a race flat but with some support thanks to the carbonspan bridge. It's a great race shoe but most people can't run in it 100% of the time. I have but I can also run in five fingers.
Race 3.0 would be the next step up with a little more support and a 13mm/23mm profile. My guess is this will feel the most like the Kinvara. I don't run in this shoe all that much as I typically go lighter or heavier and this one gets lost in the middle to me. I may race IM in it though. My last ironman (and open marathon) was in the Race 2.0.
TT 4.0 is the number one selling shoe from Zoot for a reason. It's just under 9oz but actually feels very light to run in. 15/25mm profile. It has a very comfortable upper that adjusts well to different types of feet. For a long time this was my go to shoe that could be used for everything from speed work to high volume training.
If you wanted more of a running/training shoe (i.e. normal laces and lower heel tab) then check out the OTEC. I have been using this shoe a lot lately for training as it has the same feel as running in the TT4 but none of the tri features (speed laces, drainage holes, etc).
Haven't done any formal intervals yet on my personal "track" (measure mile behind my house), just informal, dial in T-pace for mile repeats wherever, so can't really say yet about the speed difference. Feels much less clunky too and red, black, and white shoes match the kit, which is most important....
Thanks Matt: I always appreciate your thoughtful analysis!
As another bigger guy (180 lbs, size 15 shoe), I'm curious how these are working out for you.
I'm interested too. I tried the Blade Lights and loved them but they didn't love me. Seriously the most comfortable shoes ever but not enough support for me, even with the orthotics. The Kwicky Blade Lights are stability shoes so I really am tempted to try them.
Here's the first problem I see with most people making this transition (and it's a common problem across all aspects in this sport): Lack of patience and planning. People talk about making this transition in timeframes of weeks. My idea of making this transition involves more like a year or two. Obviously it depends on your starting point. As I mentioned earlier, I run exclusively in 7 - 8oz shoes now (Karhu Racers for the road and Inov8 F-Lites/Talons for the trails and a little bit in NB MT10s and NB MT101s). However, it took me about 2 years to get where I am today. Yeah, if I did it all over again the transition would have been faster. I made some mistakes along the way but I didn't really have anyone to learn from either.
So, don't think of it as finding some transition shoes. Think more of it as finding a transition plan. My suggestion would be to strengthen the foot and stabilizer muscles first before going out and buying a minimal shoe and running in them ON THE ROAD for even a single mile. Again, this assumes you have no or little experience/history running in a minimal shoe. I'm a big believer that much of what you see today in the way of shoe stability, cushioning, orthotics, etc, as simply being revenue-generating ideas. Therefore, they are merely crutches and prevent you from focusing on what's most fundamentally important when it comes to running.
The best way to strengthen the foot and stabilizer muscles in my opinion is to do the following (you can do these all simultaneously if you want):
1. Go buy something like the NB MT10 (aka Minimus) and wear it a lot. You can go buy those stupid looking Vibram 5-finger things if you want but it's completely unnecessary, imho. The Minimus is more than good enough and I think they're super comfortable too.
2. Jump rope
3. Start by running trails in something like a Inov8, NB MT101 or something similar. Obviously start conservatively (miles) at first. The impact force on trails is reduced significantly and it also improves stabilizer muscle strength very well if you run on technical trails. Again, be careful if you're a fast runner already because you can end up doing a lot of face plants if you run technical trails with rocks and roots. Your sustainable pace will be dictated by the terrain or your technique on that given terrain, not by your fitness.
The right shoe is highly individual so I wouldn't get too caught up into going with a specific brand just because someone on this team had great success. Focus on doing research and choosing a shoe that you believe meets the fundamental needs that you believe are important. I chose Inov8 F-Lites (trail) and Karhu Racers (road) as my primary shoes because I'm also a big proponent of having a low heel:toe ratio. Btw, I spent a ton of money trying to find the right shoe.
Btw, I made the comment earlier that Newtons are evil shoes. Here's why: It came to my attention that about 2 - 3 years ago Newton hired a "PT Specialist" because they were having so many problems/injuries with their sponsored athletes. It appears they tried to keep this very quiet. After receiving certain information, I would stay away from these shoes. I believe there's something fundamentally wrong with them. Just my conclusion. It shouldn't be surprise to anyone who's done their research that there has been a high rate of broken metatarsals from athletes running in these shoes. Now please don't go copying and pasting what I wrote and send it to Newton. I'm only relaying this information because I obviously care about the people on this team.
Hope that gives you some ideas.
Thanks, Chris
FYI, I put in about 23 miles on my lightweight Nikes last week, another 4 in a new pair of Asics Nimbus. I noticed a little bit of left ankle pain from the Nikes. Took yesterday off from the legs, no more soreness, stepping out the door for a 2hr long run in the Asics. I plan to switch back and forth between these shoes as I feel I need to.
My experience with Newtons: back in '07 PnI were asked to coach the squad of CEO Challenge athletes going to Kona. The organizer hooked up a sponsorship with Newton and mailed everyone a pair of shoes. He may as well have shipped them a grenade because it instantly injuried about half of the athletes, about 4-5 weeks before Kona. That speaks to the patience required to make a change like this, as Chris discusses.
When I treid Newtons several years ago I experienced pain around my second/thrid metatrsal and even developed some bruising on the top of my foot. I wrote the comany and got very persoanl attention from Danny Abshire and his wife. They sent me a different size shoe for no cost but the problem persisted and I eventually just gave up on them. I was never diagnosed with a stress fracture and was able to run in other shoes. Probably just a matter of time though.
Talking about the newest, lightest, shoes is kind of like the new super bikes and us triathletes always want that extra few seconds but please keep in mind that running is a different animal. I know everyone posting to this thread understands this but I just didn't want someone new to see this thread and just go out and try the newest lightest shoes if you are not ready for them. Leave that for the knuckleheads like me that test pre-production shoes as I have an awesome blister right now thanks to going for a 45' run in a prototype shoe ;-)
Also, I strongly believe that changing my running cadence from around 80 to over 90 is the single biggest factor that helped me. At 80 single foot steps per minute it's easy to get sloppy or heal strike, but at over 90 i'm almost always at least midfoot if not forefoot striking. Losing weight and focusing on form seemed to help as well but if the my cadence is high everything seems to fall into place. FWIW, I have also noticed that once I get over 97 I'm pretty much on my toes only and I fatigue easily for long runs. My sweat spot seems to be 95 for running hard and 92 for running easy.
My advice is focus on the things that Al, Bob, Chris, Craig and others have pointed out first, then start to gradually move to lightweight shoes.