The best debate strategy is to let your legs do the talking when you come outside and start to train/race with people again. April is always a fun month around here
Nice thread. Always liked the way you hang it out there. While I have often repeated that the reason I found EN was because my friend and infamous STer Murphy;sLaw told me that if I wanted to get faster on the bike to buy a PM then call Rich and do whatever he says. He had been a PM/Crucible Fitness/Straussian dude for a while and always seemed to crush it on less hours of training than pretty much everyone else. I always thought he was full of crap about how little he trained, he wasn't. The gains I made on the bike and run and with fitness in general once I got on the EN train were BIG and all done on less hours than before. Dropped my LP time 50 minutes on a much worse day after training less but much harder. While it is a similar story to all of the others the part that gets left out is that my previous years training was mostly from another infamous STer my friend Dev Paul who at the time anyway loved to put in huge training hours and still does but now is on the power band wagon. The advice was to get ready for IM to go out and put your nose in the wind for 6 plus hours every saturday and then run long on sunday. I did a ton of long slow solo mind numbing solo rides up to 140 miles. Would have been much better off doing hard 4 hour rides and saved myself a bunch of SAU's and some frost bite. Live and learn.
Regardless what gets lost in this "debate" is that there is plenty of volume in the EN plans. Far more than most people actually ever do. You always hear about the epic 7 hour rides but never much about the 4 stops or the fact that they bagged the monday and tuesday sessions. I don't care about the biggest week ever, what does an average week look like? Maybe I am wrong but I think that most people, either here or elsewhere do less than they intend to do or even think that they do. I am sure the guy who spends half the time at the wall chatting logs an hour of swimming. There was great thread last year, mea culpa in the title, regardling what percentage of the workouts actually get done as written. I know I have never come close to doing them all for any length of time.
Looking at my 2009 log I trained 351 hours, less than 7 hours a week. 140 hours biking, 30 hours swimming and 180 hours running. Granted I was hurt and did not run much for a few weeks and did not race IM last year but I bet those totals are pretty close to the year before when I did.
Sorry for the ramble but the underlying point is that until you really understand what you are doing debating what is "best" seems kinda silly. Kinda like debating if whey or soy protein is better when you are having lunch at Burger King and eating a half gallon of ice cream a night.
Great thread! I've been with EN since the beginning and have had consistent gains throughout the years. I even managed to have RnP blog about my results a while back here. The results didn't last long so I got to give them an update pretty quickly. See here
I'm still on track for a good season this year I think. Running is going very well and I expect new PRs in an upcoming 5K test sometime. The biking is very sluggish and I haven't spent much time on the bike in the last few weeks, but look out January!
Regardless what gets lost in this "debate" is that there is plenty of volume in the EN plans. Far more than most people actually ever do. You always hear about the epic 7 hour rides but never much about the 4 stops or the fact that they bagged the monday and tuesday sessions.
WERD!!!! Consistency is a concept that often gets lost in the argument. Additionally, EN workout's are NOT easy just because they are short. God knows there are days I'd beg for a 4 hour EZ ride instead of doing a 2 hour EN style ride!! Not trying to be super human by doing the max of everything all the time (and thereby being more consistent) was a great lesson I learned from Bill Russell taught last year and I plan to follow his lead as I train for IMWI this year.
I think this thread from last year will crush the volume elephant!
The "OMG", now that I'm oustide.....A post Rich started asking for experiences of those folks who were getting outside for the first time after a long 16 weeks in the pain cave
WERD!!!! Consistency is a concept that often gets lost in the argument. Additionally, EN workout's are NOT easy just because they are short. God knows there are days I'd beg for a 4 hour EZ ride instead of doing a 2 hour EN style ride!! Not trying to be super human by doing the max of everything all the time (and thereby being more consistent) was a great lesson I learned from Bill Russell taught last year and I plan to follow his lead as I train for IMWI this year.
Jeeze Nemo, what did I say?
On this same topic, all of us tend to think we can do more than we really can over the long haul. The OS feels sorta easy and okay for the first 6-8 weeks until the slow accumulation of fatigue catches up with us. If we're over-extended at all the 30-30s are the final straw, drilling us into the ground; I've seen scores of posts bemoaning athletic crispiness right at this point.
I'm backing off to a Beginner's plan this OS in hopes of creating good consistency and balance.
On this same topic, all of us tend to think we can do more than we really can over the long haul. The OS feels sorta easy and okay for the first 6-8 weeks until the slow accumulation of fatigue catches up with us. If we're over-extended at all the 30-30s are the final straw, drilling us into the ground; I've seen scores of posts bemoaning athletic crispiness right at this point.
I'm backing off to a Beginner's plan this OS in hopes of creating good consistency and balance.
Bill, This is just what you say and some of us are listening and taking it seriously. Please keep us posted on how it keep panning out. I'm backing down this year and moderating some. I can already tell I feel better for it, and have a good long haul in me. Much better.
Bill- that's exactly the stuff I'm talking about! I think the "Beginner" plan needs to be re-named. No one wants to be a beginner- especially with several IM's under their belt. But that Beg plan is probably a better fit for many of us who perhaps need a little more recovery or have other injuries to address. And you proved to us all that there's still a heck of a lot of hard work and progress to be made in that plan for even a seasoned member.
OK- Sorry Rich- all of that is a little off-topic. Please return to discussing the Elephant!
Bill- that's exactly the stuff I'm talking about! I think the "Beginner" plan needs to be re-named. No one wants to be a beginner- especially with several IM's under their belt. But that Beg plan is probably a better fit for many of us who perhaps need a little more recovery or have other injuries to address. And you proved to us all that there's still a heck of a lot of hard work and progress to be made in that plan for even a seasoned member.
OK- Sorry Rich- all of that is a little off-topic. Please return to discussing the Elephant!
Bill PR'd and went sub 12 on a "beginner" plan. I want to be that kind of beginner. New name, indeed. Bill was very, very smart, IMO.
RnP - Thanks for putting this post out there. It's very inspring to see how you both progressed in your training and how well everyone has done following your plans. I certainly owe a debt gratitude for a huge PR at IMFL '08 and a family that still knows I exist and have time for their activities as well!
I vote for this thread to be moved to the "Hall of Fame." Worth a read every winter when I feel fat and slow!
WTF???!!! Patrick misses a Kona slot by 4 freakin' seconds by allowing someone to pass him in the chute?? That's it... I'm outta here...
Btw Rich, I put a couch in my office and I used to close the door, turn out the light and take naps every day. Much more comfortable than sleeping under your desk. ;-)
I talked to some friends this morning about what they did for a workout today - 2.5 trainer ride followed by 1hr treadmill run all at Z1. I'd blow my freakin brains out.
Posted By Stephen Anderson on 27 Apr 2010 08:23 PM
Summary of my only two triathlons (both 70.3) and the training protocols for each.
Rhode Island 70.3 2009
- traditional approach (base building, then some speed and distance)
- avg 15-18 hrs./wk for 20 weeks
- 5:25 finish time
New Orleans 70.3 2010
- EN training (16 weeks of OS; 4 weeks of HIM plan)
- avg 7-9.5 hrs./wk for 20 weeks
- 5:01 and I think I actually had 4:45 in my legs if I had better swim and bike conditions
There is no more volume elephant in MY room! EN rocks!!!
Congrats on hyour impressive race time!
Do you think your improvement was because of a different training protocol, or because you had built on a previous base that resulted in overall better fitness?
I am certain it is because of both. However, the training protocol from EN truly equipped me, come race day, with a race plan and strategy that I KNEW was spot on. The training built the platform for race day performance. Also, my previous training would NEVER have had me doing Out Season speed training for 14 weeks prior to the 6 weeks of real race prep and higher mileage...and it was the 14 weeks of Out Season training that really set me up so well!
Posted By Stephen Anderson on 28 Apr 2010 08:09 PM
I am certain it is because of both. However, the training protocol from EN truly equipped me, come race day, with a race plan and strategy that I KNEW was spot on. The training built the platform for race day performance.
Steve, I think you hit it right on. In my couple pre-EN attempts at HIM races the training plans and teams helped me build a base to get through the race but there was no instruction or consideration on how to put the 3 sports together for a complete triathlon. There was always a lot of talk from my friends about great bike times followed by some mumbling about walking the run. Sure we have to train for 3 sports but come race day there is only one event.
I'm really looking forward to this year's HIM after spending last year learning how to race with EN. Sure there will be mistakes made but this stuff is really starting to sink in.
Jeff, your point on the EN stuff starting to sink it is an important one to me. I started with EN last year and after an EN OS, I feel like I am now beginning to get it. EN is definitely no magic bullet - it takes time and effort to understand, impliment, and get better. I think, for me at least, a year or so as a part of EN is what it took to truly feel at home with the process.
Hi all-- I am a brand new member and because I did Oceanside and IMSG my major races are over for awhile and as everyone ramps up for races, I'm actually moving into OS time. I have to admit that I am a bit of a mileage junkie at times. Obviously this has not made me fast, so I'm willing to shift my thought process a little. I have one issue though: I really do like to ride long distances, at least sometimes. While the reduced hours in the schedule will be GREAT for me in my "normal life" as a lowly surgical resident, this year I have a little bit more flexible of a schedule and I hate thinking that I have wide open weekend days where I will only do 2.5 hours on the bike? Even if it were the winter, I am by no means stuck on a trainer here in southern california. So... how does this work in an OS schedule? Do I have to tell my girlfriends that I can't go ride 60, 80, whatever on the weekend? Should I just make sure that I get the hard-a** interval portions in and then do whatever else I want for another 3 hours on the bike? I am willing to do what I need to to get faster but I really do just want to ride forever sometimes. I guess that means I'm not riding hard enough?
Shannon - Hi! Welcome aboard. As long as you have no big races on the horizon, your SHOULD be having "fun with your fitness". After you've finished following the transition plan (found here), as long as you get in two 45-60 min good interval sessions on the bike each week, go ahead, have fun on your probably infrequent days off. Go long, visit someplace new, ride down the LA river, up to Mt Wilson or Big Bear, go to San Diego and back, whatever. When you get within 20 weeks of an IM (or maybe 14-16 of an HIM), that's the time to get more disciplined and specific in your training. Don't feel locked into that 2.5 hour ride on the weekend if you've got mental and physical energy for more
Many years ago (MANY), I did med school and residency at LA County - USC. Where are you training?
I'm actually doing my training at UC San Diego's G surg program (did undergrad AND med school there too) but right now I'm doing research time at Childrens Hospital Los Angeles... so, technically I'm part of USC right now...
Just got back from a 60 K hill ride in the mountains with some Tri friends that I have not biked with sinse last summer. Did this ride two years ago and was dropped from the start. This time a little diffferent I did the dropping. I brought OS intensity to the table and smacked the hills. Felt good!
I know that is not the way to race but I am in general prep for IM Canada and an all out ego booster is what the doctor ordered.
@ Shannon - I am a General Surgeon at Balboa ( I do mostly minimally invasive).
@Al - when were you at County? My dad did a rotating internship and Peds in the 60s. I spent some time in the old hospital - I am a Navy surgeon and we have a training affiliation with USC - my OR team and I spent a month doing trauma prior to our stint in Iraq.
Just got back from a 60 K hill ride in the mountains with some Tri friends that I have not biked with sinse last summer. Did this ride two years ago and was dropped from the start. This time a little diffferent I did the dropping. I brought OS intensity to table and smacked the hills. Felt good!
I know that is not the way to race but I am in general prep for IM Canada and an all out ego booster is what the doctor order.
Paul
Paul, training is all about the hammer. Well done and keep up the good work!!!!
@ Shannon, Thomas - I was at school 70-74, and Ob-Gyn Resident 74-78. So we were in our own hospital there on the campus - the 10 story Women's Hospital, used to be the Osteopathic Med School. I'm still delivering babies, but only on call about 3 x per month, and work 2-3 days a week, 39 weeks a year
Thomas-nice to meet you-- I know one resident over there; Michael Krzyzaniak who recently is making the navy proud and me look dumb at national meetings... Oh, and I think Rappold is over there, too.. he takes trauma call for UCSD sometimes and generally makes for an entertaining night. Small world. Though I have ceased to be surprised by the number of surgeons, and doctors in general, who find themselves doing long-course tri. I'm down in SD a lot, and I would say let's ride, but first I need to get my wattage numbers anywhere near yours...
Al- OB/Gyn, eh? I went most of the way through school thinking I wanted to do that... then I saw the light. I've come full-circle though, as I spend most of my current time in the NICU taking care of kids that are supposed to still be your patients.
Almost 10 months since you posted this and all I can say is....
re: [If volume is your solution to a problem (I need to become more fit = do more), what happens when you run out of time? Seriously, think about it: where does the progression from 3 to 4 to 5 to 6 to 7...where does it end? 15hrs becomes 18hrs, becomes 22hrs...becomes what? Friggin' homeless? Divorced? Jobless? I can bet your ass you'll be pretty damn tired and burned out .] =ME
Though I cannot relate to the impressive results that hi volume got you, I can relate to hitting that ceiling and trying to convince myself that I could live on 4-5hrs sleep during the hi volume weeks.
Wow, what a great thread! As a noob I was looking for someone (a coach/group) with this fast first philosophy. My son is a nationally ranked UAST Junior Elite athlete (draft legal) and he has been to a couple of USAT Select Camps where they preach fast first. As I listened to his coaches talk to him about speed all of last season I started thinking that the fast first idea should apply to any triathlete. They used Matt Reed as a an example that I remember, he was an ITU star and now is doing well at the HIM and IM distances. But he was fast first! I have done a lot of slow volume training and never got very fast - so I am looking forward to some time (a full OS with EN) to work on fast and then add far to see how it all works out.
This is a great information and I plan to go over it again. I am one of the new kids in EN and a new believer in power traning, because I know people who have gotten results. I have to admit to not quite being financially or technically prepared for this aspect of EN/OS when I signed up. People should be warned up front that cycle power meters, dedicated wheels and GPS enabled recording devices ain't cheap. Technology in this area is also changing quickly. I'm still bumbling around in the EN website, learning how to understand my plan and where to post questions, while trying to make a very costly power purchase that works for me. EN is a very tech oriented group. I am not. But, I'm incredibly foutunate to have a local EN iron veterin/techno whiz, who has talked me off the ledge more than once, already. As a first time IMer, I'm already nervous about my physical limitations, now I'm worried if I'm smart enough. I'm trying to get my self into the 21 st century as quickly as possible. Sorry I missed the tests.
Comments
The best debate strategy is to let your legs do the talking when you come outside and start to train/race with people again. April is always a fun month around here
Nice thread. Always liked the way you hang it out there. While I have often repeated that the reason I found EN was because my friend and infamous STer Murphy;sLaw told me that if I wanted to get faster on the bike to buy a PM then call Rich and do whatever he says. He had been a PM/Crucible Fitness/Straussian dude for a while and always seemed to crush it on less hours of training than pretty much everyone else. I always thought he was full of crap about how little he trained, he wasn't. The gains I made on the bike and run and with fitness in general once I got on the EN train were BIG and all done on less hours than before. Dropped my LP time 50 minutes on a much worse day after training less but much harder. While it is a similar story to all of the others the part that gets left out is that my previous years training was mostly from another infamous STer my friend Dev Paul who at the time anyway loved to put in huge training hours and still does but now is on the power band wagon. The advice was to get ready for IM to go out and put your nose in the wind for 6 plus hours every saturday and then run long on sunday. I did a ton of long slow solo mind numbing solo rides up to 140 miles. Would have been much better off doing hard 4 hour rides and saved myself a bunch of SAU's and some frost bite. Live and learn.
Regardless what gets lost in this "debate" is that there is plenty of volume in the EN plans. Far more than most people actually ever do. You always hear about the epic 7 hour rides but never much about the 4 stops or the fact that they bagged the monday and tuesday sessions. I don't care about the biggest week ever, what does an average week look like? Maybe I am wrong but I think that most people, either here or elsewhere do less than they intend to do or even think that they do. I am sure the guy who spends half the time at the wall chatting logs an hour of swimming. There was great thread last year, mea culpa in the title, regardling what percentage of the workouts actually get done as written. I know I have never come close to doing them all for any length of time.
Looking at my 2009 log I trained 351 hours, less than 7 hours a week. 140 hours biking, 30 hours swimming and 180 hours running. Granted I was hurt and did not run much for a few weeks and did not race IM last year but I bet those totals are pretty close to the year before when I did.
Sorry for the ramble but the underlying point is that until you really understand what you are doing debating what is "best" seems kinda silly. Kinda like debating if whey or soy protein is better when you are having lunch at Burger King and eating a half gallon of ice cream a night.
Great thread! I've been with EN since the beginning and have had consistent gains throughout the years. I even managed to have RnP blog about my results a while back here. The results didn't last long so I got to give them an update pretty quickly. See here
I'm still on track for a good season this year I think. Running is going very well and I expect new PRs in an upcoming 5K test sometime. The biking is very sluggish and I haven't spent much time on the bike in the last few weeks, but look out January!
tom
WERD!!!! Consistency is a concept that often gets lost in the argument. Additionally, EN workout's are NOT easy just because they are short. God knows there are days I'd beg for a 4 hour EZ ride instead of doing a 2 hour EN style ride!! Not trying to be super human by doing the max of everything all the time (and thereby being more consistent) was a great lesson I learned from Bill Russell taught last year and I plan to follow his lead as I train for IMWI this year.
I think this thread from last year will crush the volume elephant!
The "OMG", now that I'm oustide.....A post Rich started asking for experiences of those folks who were getting outside for the first time after a long 16 weeks in the pain cave
http://www.endurancenation.us/en_fo...light=pats
Bill, This is just what you say and some of us are listening and taking it seriously. Please keep us posted on how it keep panning out. I'm backing down this year and moderating some. I can already tell I feel better for it, and have a good long haul in me. Much better.
OK- Sorry Rich- all of that is a little off-topic. Please return to discussing the Elephant!
Bill PR'd and went sub 12 on a "beginner" plan. I want to be that kind of beginner. New name, indeed.
Bill was very, very smart, IMO.
RnP - Thanks for putting this post out there. It's very inspring to see how you both progressed in your training and how well everyone has done following your plans. I certainly owe a debt gratitude for a huge PR at IMFL '08 and a family that still knows I exist and have time for their activities as well!
I vote for this thread to be moved to the "Hall of Fame." Worth a read every winter when I feel fat and slow!
Dom
WTF???!!! Patrick misses a Kona slot by 4 freakin' seconds by allowing someone to pass him in the chute?? That's it... I'm outta here...
Btw Rich, I put a couch in my office and I used to close the door, turn out the light and take naps every day. Much more comfortable than sleeping under your desk. ;-)
I talked to some friends this morning about what they did for a workout today - 2.5 trainer ride followed by 1hr treadmill run all at Z1. I'd blow my freakin brains out.
Summary of my only two triathlons (both 70.3) and the training protocols for each.
Rhode Island 70.3 2009
- traditional approach (base building, then some speed and distance)
- avg 15-18 hrs./wk for 20 weeks
- 5:25 finish time
New Orleans 70.3 2010
- EN training (16 weeks of OS; 4 weeks of HIM plan)
- avg 7-9.5 hrs./wk for 20 weeks
- 5:01 and I think I actually had 4:45 in my legs if I had better swim and bike conditions
There is no more volume elephant in MY room! EN rocks!!!
Congrats on hyour impressive race time!
Do you think your improvement was because of a different training protocol, or because you had built on a previous base that resulted in overall better fitness?
I am certain it is because of both. However, the training protocol from EN truly equipped me, come race day, with a race plan and strategy that I KNEW was spot on. The training built the platform for race day performance. Also, my previous training would NEVER have had me doing Out Season speed training for 14 weeks prior to the 6 weeks of real race prep and higher mileage...and it was the 14 weeks of Out Season training that really set me up so well!
Steve, I think you hit it right on. In my couple pre-EN attempts at HIM races the training plans and teams helped me build a base to get through the race but there was no instruction or consideration on how to put the 3 sports together for a complete triathlon. There was always a lot of talk from my friends about great bike times followed by some mumbling about walking the run. Sure we have to train for 3 sports but come race day there is only one event.
I'm really looking forward to this year's HIM after spending last year learning how to race with EN. Sure there will be mistakes made but this stuff is really starting to sink in.
Jeff, your point on the EN stuff starting to sink it is an important one to me. I started with EN last year and after an EN OS, I feel like I am now beginning to get it. EN is definitely no magic bullet - it takes time and effort to understand, impliment, and get better. I think, for me at least, a year or so as a part of EN is what it took to truly feel at home with the process.
Thanks for any feedback!
Shannon
Shannon - Hi! Welcome aboard. As long as you have no big races on the horizon, your SHOULD be having "fun with your fitness". After you've finished following the transition plan (found here), as long as you get in two 45-60 min good interval sessions on the bike each week, go ahead, have fun on your probably infrequent days off. Go long, visit someplace new, ride down the LA river, up to Mt Wilson or Big Bear, go to San Diego and back, whatever. When you get within 20 weeks of an IM (or maybe 14-16 of an HIM), that's the time to get more disciplined and specific in your training. Don't feel locked into that 2.5 hour ride on the weekend if you've got mental and physical energy for more
Many years ago (MANY), I did med school and residency at LA County - USC. Where are you training?
Thanks for the input--
I'm actually doing my training at UC San Diego's G surg program (did undergrad AND med school there too) but right now I'm doing research time at Childrens Hospital Los Angeles... so, technically I'm part of USC right now...
What's your specialty?
Just got back from a 60 K hill ride in the mountains with some Tri friends that I have not biked with sinse last summer. Did this ride two years ago and was dropped from the start. This time a little diffferent I did the dropping. I brought OS intensity to the table and smacked the hills. Felt good!
I know that is not the way to race but I am in general prep for IM Canada and an all out ego booster is what the doctor ordered.
Paul
@ Shannon - I am a General Surgeon at Balboa ( I do mostly minimally invasive).
@Al - when were you at County? My dad did a rotating internship and Peds in the 60s. I spent some time in the old hospital - I am a Navy surgeon and we have a training affiliation with USC - my OR team and I spent a month doing trauma prior to our stint in Iraq.
Paul, training is all about the hammer. Well done and keep up the good work!!!!
P
@ Shannon, Thomas - I was at school 70-74, and Ob-Gyn Resident 74-78. So we were in our own hospital there on the campus - the 10 story Women's Hospital, used to be the Osteopathic Med School. I'm still delivering babies, but only on call about 3 x per month, and work 2-3 days a week, 39 weeks a year
I'm down in SD a lot, and I would say let's ride, but first I need to get my wattage numbers anywhere near yours...
Al- OB/Gyn, eh? I went most of the way through school thinking I wanted to do that... then I saw the light.
Thanks for sharing your experiences!
I am very excited to get my but on the road EN style/
re: [If volume is your solution to a problem (I need to become more fit = do more), what happens when you run out of time? Seriously, think about it: where does the progression from 3 to 4 to 5 to 6 to 7...where does it end? 15hrs becomes 18hrs, becomes 22hrs...becomes what? Friggin' homeless? Divorced? Jobless? I can bet your ass you'll be pretty damn tired and burned out .]
=ME
Though I cannot relate to the impressive results that hi volume got you, I can relate to hitting that ceiling and trying to convince myself that I could live on 4-5hrs sleep during the hi volume weeks.
This is a great information and I plan to go over it again. I am one of the new kids in EN and a new believer in power traning, because I know people who have gotten results. I have to admit to not quite being financially or technically prepared for this aspect of EN/OS when I signed up. People should be warned up front that cycle power meters, dedicated wheels and GPS enabled recording devices ain't cheap. Technology in this area is also changing quickly. I'm still bumbling around in the EN website, learning how to understand my plan and where to post questions, while trying to make a very costly power purchase that works for me. EN is a very tech oriented group. I am not. But, I'm incredibly foutunate to have a local EN iron veterin/techno whiz, who has talked me off the ledge more than once, already. As a first time IMer, I'm already nervous about my physical limitations, now I'm worried if I'm smart enough. I'm trying to get my self into the 21 st century as quickly as possible. Sorry I missed the tests.
Welcome.
There are options for GPS/running that include bike power as well — eg Garmin XT310, also, more expensive is Garmin 910XT.
It just depends on how much you can afford.
An easy low(er) cost approach is to buy on eBay a 2nd hand powertap wheel plus Garmin xt310 giving you power and pace.
Cheers
Peter
ps There are many WSMs and other smart peeps that can help you with these choices.