@ Jonathan - if you have the computer mount for the XLab Torpedo you can mount it on the front end of the Torpedo base, but upside down, i.e. facing down. Then attach a BarFly mount to the computer mount and attach your Garmin to the BarFly. This configuration puts the Garmin out front ahead of and below your aerobars with plenty of room for your hands and good viewing of the Garmin. Let me know if you would like a pic of the setup.
~Bill
Bill -
I would love to see a pic if you will PM me - thanks
I'll add my thanks - even for the Garmin 910xt, that looks like it could work well. I've had difficulty getting the quick release mount to attach securely to the X-Lab Torpedo computer mount, this likes it could be a great solution!
A few pics of the setup. Let me know if you have any questions.
I expect there is a "small" aero penalty, but everything fits nicely and I like having room for my hands on the aero grips.
This is great, thanks for sharing the pics! I have the Torpedo and have also been struggling with 810 placement. Right now I've just got it on the stem using the OEM Garmin mount with the rubber bands and frankly I hate it. I can't see it and I sweat all over it.
Does yours bounce around much, being that far out front?
Graham...I think you're spot on on your options. Coaches recommend on course nutrition if you can manage that. I do that, with Speedfill A2 b/w aero bars, regular bottle holders in the triangle, no bottles behind seat. Worked great for IMTX. Just refill A2 as you go from bottle(s) in your triangle. Simple, no risk of dropping/losing nutrition that you cannot easily replace. Key is to practice it in your long rides and RR ride/runs to be sure it works for you. This is what most of the IMTX team was doing.
My first IM (IMLP) is 2.5 weeks away and I'm starting to freak a bit over the final details. My bike setup being one of them. Currently I have an xlab BTA setup (with straw) and also have been training with an xlab rear hydration setup with 2 additional bottles. I've been launching bottles like crazy lately from those rear cages and have tried everything to prevent this, but little has worked. In my last 2 HIM's, I went without the rear setup, and used the BTA and a spare in the down tube, as others have mentioned in some posts above. Since, I've been training with Perform (which will be available on the course), I'm thinking this will be enough. But, I've also read that having a bottle on the down tube is the least aerodynamic of all choices. I'm not sure if this is true or if it's something I should worry about given the fact that I'm not gunning for a Kona spot. Any input for me would be much appreciated.
Brad - don't sweat it. find a good safe place for two bottles on your bike. For LP I've used one bottle with water in a torpedo mount and the other on the down tube for sports drink. the aid stations are close enough that you won't need more than two bottles on your bike at once.
x 2 on what Cary said. I started with 3 bottles at IMTX, where I consumed 2 bottles/hr for 6 hours. I really would have been fine with just one in the triangle and my Speedfill A2 though. Aid stations are about 10miles apart...averaging ~19mph, that's about 2 stations/hr. Starting with 2 or 3 and then grabbing one at each aid station (2 if you happen to need it is possible, just have to be ready and not miss the front end of the aid station) you should be fine.
I had rear cages for a while...same experience with the launching...and it seemed to always happen in races (moreso than on training rides for some reason). I took it off and don't plan to put it back.
On the IMTX course, everywhere there was a "bump" of any kind on the road, I found myself literally going through an obstacle course of bottles....I'm sure those were ALL rear cage ejections! Ditch the rear cages man! You'll be just fine with 2 or 3 cages or your BTA and one cage.
x 2 on what Cary said. I started with 3 bottles at IMTX, where I consumed 2 bottles/hr for 6 hours. I really would have been fine with just one in the triangle and my Speedfill A2 though. Aid stations are about 10miles apart...averaging ~19mph, that's about 2 stations/hr. Starting with 2 or 3 and then grabbing one at each aid station (2 if you happen to need it is possible, just have to be ready and not miss the front end of the aid station) you should be fine.
I had rear cages for a while...same experience with the launching...and it seemed to always happen in races (moreso than on training rides for some reason). I took it off and don't plan to put it back.
On the IMTX course, everywhere there was a "bump" of any kind on the road, I found myself literally going through an obstacle course of bottles....I'm sure those were ALL rear cage ejections! Ditch the rear cages man! You'll be just fine with 2 or 3 cages or your BTA and one cage.
@Cary, Jeff and Robert - Thanks for the advice. I'll plan to remove the rear setup before race day and go with the bta + downtube bottles. One less thing to worry about. Now I just have to figure out how to stow the spare tubes, co2, etc. Much of this is mounted to my rear hydration setup. I'll get it all in order somehow.
@Cary, Jeff and Robert - Thanks for the advice. I'll plan to remove the rear setup before race day and go with the bta + downtube bottles. One less thing to worry about. Now I just have to figure out how to stow the spare tubes, co2, etc. Much of this is mounted to my rear hydration setup. I'll get it all in order somehow.
A bento box and/or the space under your saddle are good places to stash that stuff.
@Cary, Jeff and Robert - Thanks for the advice. I'll plan to remove the rear setup before race day and go with the bta + downtube bottles. One less thing to worry about. Now I just have to figure out how to stow the spare tubes, co2, etc. Much of this is mounted to my rear hydration setup. I'll get it all in order somehow.
I keep (2) tubes under my saddle attached to the rails via velcro straps. I've got a C02 mount (2 cartridges) that goes under my downtube bottle cage. I keep an inflator, multi-tool, tire levers, latex glove and an extra valve stem in the bento box.
I keep 1 tube under my seat. In my bento I keep another tube, an inflator, and a valve stem. I tape the CO2s to my frame under my down tube bottle.
Another option for you is to just keep your rear cages on and put your change kit in a small extra bottle back there. Either take the remaining cage off the back or just leave it empty.
Reading over this thread before my race tomorrow (HIM, HITS lake Havasu). I am focusing on water bottles. What I'd like to know is if there is an "order of aero-ness" for water bottle placement given all available options?
Someone mentioned to me that the behind the seat bottle position might be more aero, which, after riding around and trying, I am not entirely convinced of, because it is a bit awkward to replace bottles. Usually what I do is have bottles on the seat and down tube and extra nutrition and sunscreen in either the bento box and/or one of the saddle cages. Tools and tubes in a saddle bag above the cages.
I have no torpedo system (yet). I am kind of thinking that the fastest thing for me is what I can *do* fastest, and that is the aforementioned setup.
"Generally" a normal bicycle water bottle on the down tube is more aero than one on the seat tube. That can be frame dependent but there are few exceptions to that rule.
A behind the seat bottle might be more aero but it might not. Depends a lot on rider position, how close the bottle is to the rider, and what kind of system (1 vs 2 bottle, etc.). Also the most awkward to deal with.
A between the arms system is "generally" the most aero.
A basic hierarchy would probably go:
1. Between the arms/torpedo
2. Behind the saddle (one bottle system, close to rider's butt)
3. Down tube
4. Seat tube
5. Behind the saddle (two bottle parachute system)
This would all be very dependent on the type of system used. For example, the Profile Design Aerodrink system, while being BTA, is aerodynamically inferior to almost all other BTAs, most behind the seat, and down tube bottles and systems.
Thank you so much for this Bob!! It is exactly what I was after. I understand that there are caveats to the hierarchy, but getting the general idea is very helpful. I just got my hands on a torpedo setup, but didn't get to incorporate it in time to be comfortable with it for the race. I will be looking to twiddle with the setup in the future (after this race).
HELP! I have switched from the 40oz speedfil system to the Profile design FC25 bta system. It is going back today! No matter what I did, massive splashing on me and my bike was just COVERED in gatorade. I've got the original Di2 shifting on my 2011 Felt (which isn't supported any more...at all!) and I don't want to push my luck scrubbing it daily after riding because its gooey.
I am so used to riding with a straw to drink, but I don't want to have a hot sticky mess of gatorade covering my bike/legs/shoes after every ride. Which is cleaner? Speedfil A2 or Xlab torpedo??? I also will need the garmin out front. That was very nice on the FC25.
Anyone have any input on newer systems or which is cleaner??? Thanks!!!
The only BTA system I have used is the A2 speedfill. Mine has the valve on top that you can close and open. It works well....no leaking except when I try to refill and "miss" or the road is bumpy when trying to refill. I had to get used to the bite valve, as it takes a little longer to get fluids and I tend to get out of breath when trying to gulp too much, but I've learned....
I think I've moved towards separate training and racing setups, for BTA systems:
Training: I just mount a standard bottle cage (side loading, jacked from my mtn bike) between the bars and use a standard bottle. I have two additional bottle cages behind the seat, drinking from the BTA bottle and rotating full bottles into that position. I probably don't drink as often from it as I would from a straw setup, and I probably lose a little speed doing so, but my front end isn't also totally covered in sticky crap either, which is nice. Also have a tool bag (big) on the rear and bento for gels, etc)
Racing: I have a Torhans 20oz setup (that I need to actually ride with before IMWI) and single, rear mounted bottle cage. For racing, tools will go in the bento and I'll take nutrition from the course, with the rear mount there for if I want to rack an extra bottle.
Thanks for your input guys! A local teammate suggested the A2 as well. He, like Rich usually only races with it, but I am a creature of habit and if it isn't messy will run it all the time.
Jeff, I have used the speedfil on the frame since 2010an am totally trained on the bite valve. I was drinking so much more than I intended with the PD straw due to a larger opening and no valve. I know how many exactly how many pulls to get extra fluid in the first hour post swim and how many to drop to after that.
I ended up with the A2 and Z4 mount combo. I will ride it today to see how it fares. Looks pretty solid for a lack of mess. The garmin mount is a little less forward, but better than other positions I've seen. Fingers crossed I love it!
Sorry if I missed it this thread but concerning the use of a Garmin device (500 for me on the bike) what data fields would you suggest when racing a 70.3?
I've tried different screens and for my upcoming race (Muncie) would like to keep it stupid simple and use one screen(two max). Assuming I can have 5 fields and am not concerned about using time or distance as two of them, what fields would you use?
This is my thought based on what I'd like to accomplish and knowing the goals for each field. 1)NP 2)IF 3)Avg W 4)Power Zone 5)Cadence
On screen 2 I may use time (elapsed)/distance/speed/cadence (avg)/HR zone.
Many of us use a screen with Lap NP and have auto lap every 5 miles. This is discussed in another forum and maybe in the WIKI race execution. We don't want to try to make up the watts by working to hard at the end of the ride that might appear low as total avg due to one's "warm up" or admin miles or even a bad patch. This way we focus on smaller blocks.
Sorry if I missed it this thread but concerning the use of a Garmin device (500 for me on the bike) what data fields would you suggest when racing a 70.3?
I've tried different screens and for my upcoming race (Muncie) would like to keep it stupid simple and use one screen(two max). Assuming I can have 5 fields and am not concerned about using time or distance as two of them, what fields would you use?
This is my thought based on what I'd like to accomplish and knowing the goals for each field.
1)NP
2)IF
3)Avg W
4)Power Zone
5)Cadence
On screen 2 I may use time (elapsed)/distance/speed/cadence (avg)/HR zone.
Please share your thoughts and recommendations!
I use both the Garmin 500 and Joule 2.0.
In general I prefer to look at the Joule which has 3 fields Lap Time; 3 sec Power; Lap IF and hit the lap button every 15 minutes to keep my IF box small.
For the Garmin I have a 15 minute alert that triggers me to hit the Joule lap and my nutrition. Also do Auto Lap @ 4 miles (about 15 minutes). For fields I actually have 4 different screens, one being an overall view the other 3 provide 3 sec Power and 1 other metric. Lets me decide on the fly what second metric is important to me at the time.
!) Total Time, IF, Total Miles, Average Speed
2) 3 sec Power, Cadence (RPM)
3) 3 sec Power, Lap NP
4) 3 sec Power, HR (BPM)
Most of the time it is set to # 3 with Lap NP because that is all that really matters.... most of the time. If things feel off cadence wise, I put that screen up so I can avoid too much mashing or spinning out. rarely I look at # 4 with HR which is only there for random RPE=HR validation.
Screen #1 with totals gives me a sense of the ride. I may only look at it at the halfway point and as I near the end. The IF function on a Garmin is total ride only and does not do Lap IF, hence the Joule.
Sorry if I missed it this thread but concerning the use of a Garmin device (500 for me on the bike) what data fields would you suggest when racing a 70.3?
I've tried different screens and for my upcoming race (Muncie) would like to keep it stupid simple and use one screen(two max). Assuming I can have 5 fields and am not concerned about using time or distance as two of them, what fields would you use?
This is my thought based on what I'd like to accomplish and knowing the goals for each field.
1)NP
2)IF
3)Avg W
4)Power Zone
5)Cadence
On screen 2 I may use time (elapsed)/distance/speed/cadence (avg)/HR zone.
Please share your thoughts and recommendations!
#s 1-4 Above all seem like variations of the same metric. Like Steve, I feel the only one that really matters is current lap NP. Except I use current lap IF, to make things easier for me to remember. Additional fields I use (I have 6 fields on my head unit so these are in the order of importance): Current (3 second) power, ride time (of current lap), % grade, cadence, HR. I hit my lap button every 15-20 minutes or with relevant terrain changes, to get a read on my effort up a longer hill, say.
If you have trouble holding a good VI, then substitute lap Average Power for HR, and do the math on the fly - NP/AP = VI.
@Trish - speedfill A2 - i had some problems as i apparently re-assembled after washing without the rubber seal between the bottle & the cap, so it was a bit messy for a bit, but now problem solved and much better...
Comments
Good to hear Jonathan.
Have a great race and training season.
Bill -
I would love to see a pic if you will PM me - thanks
@ Thomas
A few pics of the setup. Let me know if you have any questions.
I expect there is a "small" aero penalty, but everything fits nicely and I like having room for my hands on the aero grips.
I'll add my thanks - even for the Garmin 910xt, that looks like it could work well. I've had difficulty getting the quick release mount to attach securely to the X-Lab Torpedo computer mount, this likes it could be a great solution!
This is great, thanks for sharing the pics! I have the Torpedo and have also been struggling with 810 placement. Right now I've just got it on the stem using the OEM Garmin mount with the rubber bands and frankly I hate it. I can't see it and I sweat all over it.
Does yours bounce around much, being that far out front?
Jason
Hi Jason
I've found it to be solid. It is important to have the base/cage secured snug to the aerobars using the velcro straps.
Hello All,
My 2014 Cervelo P2 arrived at the weekend. Happy days - she looks amazing!!!.
I have Speedfil Z4+A2 BTA setup for fluids and Xlab200 for bento box.
What do smart ENers use on the downtube for fluids ? I can see 2 options:
1) Standard cage and then grab standard bottles containing Perform provided by feed stations. Use this to top up A2 ?
2) Xlabs Aero TT - use for concentrated Infinit and then grab water off the course to mix in A2.
Thoughts & comments?
Graham...I think you're spot on on your options. Coaches recommend on course nutrition if you can manage that. I do that, with Speedfill A2 b/w aero bars, regular bottle holders in the triangle, no bottles behind seat. Worked great for IMTX. Just refill A2 as you go from bottle(s) in your triangle. Simple, no risk of dropping/losing nutrition that you cannot easily replace. Key is to practice it in your long rides and RR ride/runs to be sure it works for you. This is what most of the IMTX team was doing.
x 2 on what Cary said. I started with 3 bottles at IMTX, where I consumed 2 bottles/hr for 6 hours. I really would have been fine with just one in the triangle and my Speedfill A2 though. Aid stations are about 10miles apart...averaging ~19mph, that's about 2 stations/hr. Starting with 2 or 3 and then grabbing one at each aid station (2 if you happen to need it is possible, just have to be ready and not miss the front end of the aid station) you should be fine.
I had rear cages for a while...same experience with the launching...and it seemed to always happen in races (moreso than on training rides for some reason). I took it off and don't plan to put it back.
On the IMTX course, everywhere there was a "bump" of any kind on the road, I found myself literally going through an obstacle course of bottles....I'm sure those were ALL rear cage ejections! Ditch the rear cages man! You'll be just fine with 2 or 3 cages or your BTA and one cage.
x 2 on what Cary said. I started with 3 bottles at IMTX, where I consumed 2 bottles/hr for 6 hours. I really would have been fine with just one in the triangle and my Speedfill A2 though. Aid stations are about 10miles apart...averaging ~19mph, that's about 2 stations/hr. Starting with 2 or 3 and then grabbing one at each aid station (2 if you happen to need it is possible, just have to be ready and not miss the front end of the aid station) you should be fine.
I had rear cages for a while...same experience with the launching...and it seemed to always happen in races (moreso than on training rides for some reason). I took it off and don't plan to put it back.
On the IMTX course, everywhere there was a "bump" of any kind on the road, I found myself literally going through an obstacle course of bottles....I'm sure those were ALL rear cage ejections! Ditch the rear cages man! You'll be just fine with 2 or 3 cages or your BTA and one cage.
A bento box and/or the space under your saddle are good places to stash that stuff.
I keep (2) tubes under my saddle attached to the rails via velcro straps. I've got a C02 mount (2 cartridges) that goes under my downtube bottle cage. I keep an inflator, multi-tool, tire levers, latex glove and an extra valve stem in the bento box.
Another option for you is to just keep your rear cages on and put your change kit in a small extra bottle back there. Either take the remaining cage off the back or just leave it empty.
Reading over this thread before my race tomorrow (HIM, HITS lake Havasu). I am focusing on water bottles. What I'd like to know is if there is an "order of aero-ness" for water bottle placement given all available options?
Someone mentioned to me that the behind the seat bottle position might be more aero, which, after riding around and trying, I am not entirely convinced of, because it is a bit awkward to replace bottles. Usually what I do is have bottles on the seat and down tube and extra nutrition and sunscreen in either the bento box and/or one of the saddle cages. Tools and tubes in a saddle bag above the cages.
I have no torpedo system (yet). I am kind of thinking that the fastest thing for me is what I can *do* fastest, and that is the aforementioned setup.
Votes?
A behind the seat bottle might be more aero but it might not. Depends a lot on rider position, how close the bottle is to the rider, and what kind of system (1 vs 2 bottle, etc.). Also the most awkward to deal with.
A between the arms system is "generally" the most aero.
A basic hierarchy would probably go:
1. Between the arms/torpedo
2. Behind the saddle (one bottle system, close to rider's butt)
3. Down tube
4. Seat tube
5. Behind the saddle (two bottle parachute system)
This would all be very dependent on the type of system used. For example, the Profile Design Aerodrink system, while being BTA, is aerodynamically inferior to almost all other BTAs, most behind the seat, and down tube bottles and systems.
Thank you so much for this Bob!! It is exactly what I was after. I understand that there are caveats to the hierarchy, but getting the general idea is very helpful. I just got my hands on a torpedo setup, but didn't get to incorporate it in time to be comfortable with it for the race. I will be looking to twiddle with the setup in the future (after this race).
Thanks again!!
HELP! I have switched from the 40oz speedfil system to the Profile design FC25 bta system. It is going back today! No matter what I did, massive splashing on me and my bike was just COVERED in gatorade. I've got the original Di2 shifting on my 2011 Felt (which isn't supported any more...at all!) and I don't want to push my luck scrubbing it daily after riding because its gooey.
I am so used to riding with a straw to drink, but I don't want to have a hot sticky mess of gatorade covering my bike/legs/shoes after every ride. Which is cleaner? Speedfil A2 or Xlab torpedo??? I also will need the garmin out front. That was very nice on the FC25.
Anyone have any input on newer systems or which is cleaner??? Thanks!!!
The only BTA system I have used is the A2 speedfill. Mine has the valve on top that you can close and open. It works well....no leaking except when I try to refill and "miss" or the road is bumpy when trying to refill. I had to get used to the bite valve, as it takes a little longer to get fluids and I tend to get out of breath when trying to gulp too much, but I've learned....
I think I've moved towards separate training and racing setups, for BTA systems:
Jeff, I have used the speedfil on the frame since 2010an am totally trained on the bite valve. I was drinking so much more than I intended with the PD straw due to a larger opening and no valve. I know how many exactly how many pulls to get extra fluid in the first hour post swim and how many to drop to after that.
I ended up with the A2 and Z4 mount combo. I will ride it today to see how it fares. Looks pretty solid for a lack of mess. The garmin mount is a little less forward, but better than other positions I've seen. Fingers crossed I love it!
I've tried different screens and for my upcoming race (Muncie) would like to keep it stupid simple and use one screen(two max). Assuming I can have 5 fields and am not concerned about using time or distance as two of them, what fields would you use?
This is my thought based on what I'd like to accomplish and knowing the goals for each field.
1)NP
2)IF
3)Avg W
4)Power Zone
5)Cadence
On screen 2 I may use time (elapsed)/distance/speed/cadence (avg)/HR zone.
Please share your thoughts and recommendations!
I use both the Garmin 500 and Joule 2.0.
In general I prefer to look at the Joule which has 3 fields Lap Time; 3 sec Power; Lap IF and hit the lap button every 15 minutes to keep my IF box small.
For the Garmin I have a 15 minute alert that triggers me to hit the Joule lap and my nutrition. Also do Auto Lap @ 4 miles (about 15 minutes). For fields I actually have 4 different screens, one being an overall view the other 3 provide 3 sec Power and 1 other metric. Lets me decide on the fly what second metric is important to me at the time.
!) Total Time, IF, Total Miles, Average Speed
2) 3 sec Power, Cadence (RPM)
3) 3 sec Power, Lap NP
4) 3 sec Power, HR (BPM)
Most of the time it is set to # 3 with Lap NP because that is all that really matters.... most of the time. If things feel off cadence wise, I put that screen up so I can avoid too much mashing or spinning out. rarely I look at # 4 with HR which is only there for random RPE=HR validation.
Screen #1 with totals gives me a sense of the ride. I may only look at it at the halfway point and as I near the end. The IF function on a Garmin is total ride only and does not do Lap IF, hence the Joule.
#s 1-4 Above all seem like variations of the same metric. Like Steve, I feel the only one that really matters is current lap NP. Except I use current lap IF, to make things easier for me to remember. Additional fields I use (I have 6 fields on my head unit so these are in the order of importance): Current (3 second) power, ride time (of current lap), % grade, cadence, HR. I hit my lap button every 15-20 minutes or with relevant terrain changes, to get a read on my effort up a longer hill, say.
If you have trouble holding a good VI, then substitute lap Average Power for HR, and do the math on the fly - NP/AP = VI.