2011 OUT SEASON Training Plan Feedback Thread (closes 8/5!)
Folks -
It's that time of year again when Rich and Patrick stop producing and start listening. Really hard. 
This is your chance to tell us all about the OUTSEASON Training Plans...specifically:
Example of Good Feedback: "Ironman -- I have enjoyed the change to a three week taper in the 2011 plans. I think we could use more individual volume session in the final weeks because X, Y, and Z." OR “OutSeason -- I think the move to consolidating the 30/30s as 2.5 minutes was too much for me, because X, Y, or Z.”
Example of Not-So-Good Feedback: "More hard stuff please!" OR "I am a nocturnal bipolar vegan with agoraphobia, I need special workouts for me."
While we can't answer every request, this annual exercise has repeatedly turned up really solid great advice for the Team. Sometimes our edits end up in the plans themselves, other times they grow into hacks for the wiki and much more.
Thanks in advance for your time. Please be sure to read through this thread as you reply so we can cut down on repetition...and the deadline for info for us is Friday 8/5!!
~ RnP
This is your chance to tell us all about the OUTSEASON Training Plans...specifically:
- what you liked/didn't like
- what you think should change and why
- any thing else you can think of.
Example of Good Feedback: "Ironman -- I have enjoyed the change to a three week taper in the 2011 plans. I think we could use more individual volume session in the final weeks because X, Y, and Z." OR “OutSeason -- I think the move to consolidating the 30/30s as 2.5 minutes was too much for me, because X, Y, or Z.”
Example of Not-So-Good Feedback: "More hard stuff please!" OR "I am a nocturnal bipolar vegan with agoraphobia, I need special workouts for me."
While we can't answer every request, this annual exercise has repeatedly turned up really solid great advice for the Team. Sometimes our edits end up in the plans themselves, other times they grow into hacks for the wiki and much more.
Thanks in advance for your time. Please be sure to read through this thread as you reply so we can cut down on repetition...and the deadline for info for us is Friday 8/5!!
~ RnP
0
Comments
EDIT - Nov OS - Intermediate
P - I guess I'll start. This was a topic among a few of us during dinner at the IM WI Camp...
20 weeks straight of OS gets to be a grind despite the low volume. The shifts from threshold to VO2max and back to threshold are helpful but somewhere around week 15-16 I got burned out and it seems I am not alone.
Maybe a week off (bike/run) and 2-3 sessions in the pool to work on drills and knocking off the swim cobwebs is an option? Perhaps a 3-4 day break (Th-Sun) is enough instead of a full week. Maybe the OS should be 16-18 weeks instead of 20?
I would lean towards a few swims after the V02max set as a way to not lose fitness but severely shake things up.
A new run workout to suggest (and again to add some variety) is a simple ladder. Work and recovery are the same, 3'-2'-1'-2'-3'-2'-1'. 3' @ HMP, 2' @ T-pace, 1' @ I-pace. As I learned this the paces were 10k, 5k, 3k but trying to roughly adapt it to our paces.
Thanks for the opportunity to chime in!
The 2.5 x 2.5 VO2 sets were about 45" too long. Many were posting that they had to cut them short to get them done. Early in the VO2 section was not so bad, but later weeks got harder and harder to hit them. My thought would be to go to 2x2 instead. IOW, dont shorten then too much but make them doable.....
I also found too much burnout at the end of the VO2 weeks to the point where I didn't want to get on the bike. It wasn't deep volume fatigue but severe intensity fatigue. It wasnt till after my epic 5 day, 68 mile backcountry ski trip that I started to feel normal again. But even then, I skipped some or all of the VO2 sets that were mixed into the final 6 weeks - I just couldnt get myself to go there.
Thanks for the space to give feed-back
Also, not sure if this works physiologically, but I'd be curious as to what a built in "rest week" with ABP (80-85%) for the week would do. I think this might be easier physically, but if I remember, the mental part of the "remainder at 80-85%" was often a struggle for folks to embrace. This could be like a 1-2 week cram session.
No complaints here. I can't wait to get back in the pain cave and suffer. Due to the OS and IM Advanced plans I followed I was able to PR Lake Placid (10:45). I also came away feeling like I have things figured out and will likely go back in 2013 to CRUSH it. I expect the OS stuff to be tough. I expect there'll be days I can't hit the numbers. I expect to improve too, so it's all good from where I sit.
I am intrigued to hear more about the higher volume that RnP have been doing lately and looking forward to how that might trickle down into the EN protocol for those of us (tweeners) that are not going quite fast enough to get to Kona. Great stuff. Lovin' it. Keep it coming.
BT
First time doing the OS program. Two issues for me. First, fatigue built up massively during the VO2 section. Not quite sure what it was, but I dug myself a massive hole there, and while I saw some significant gains, I am still a little below par almost 4 months later. Second, the Saturday bikes got a little too hot in March and April. I was repeatedly unable to complete the Sunday run. When it was supposed to be going up in volume, it was going down becuase I couldn't keep going. Could you flip the two and run Saturday, bike Sunday? I have found I can still do the bike after running the day before, but not vice-versa.
As a few others have already mentioned - I experienced a burn out around week 15-17 of the outseason plan.. Perhaps cut the OS down to 15 weeks, or do a few weeks of sport specific training (big bike weeks etc) and then return to the normal OS. Maybe towards the end of the outseason, have one weekly session that is just easy pace, but gradually builds in duration. Love the no swimming in the OS.
I'm also interested in learning more about the high volume training.
A coaches note with a word of caution could assist the first timers.
Pete
INT OS
I liked the FTP intervals, and felt a solid, significant increase in output power over the course of the Plan. I also thought that the first switch to VO2 was a good shock to the system, and I saw solid gains in that initial block. Like many others, I had a bit of a challenge -- not sure if it is 100% physical -- in going back to the FTP section over the back few weeks. I'd say that this is probably workable for some, but perhaps harder for (i) masters athletes (why might need more recovery?) and/or (ii) trying to creep ahead on volume for an early HIM. Personally I found doing VO2 bike/run work all week, then stacking increasing bike/run vol @ FTP and/or ABP on the weekend to be less than optimal.
Feedback to consider:
(1) whether the OS could be 16 weeks instead of 20, since many people in the Haus reported not doing the full 20 -- esp those w/ early LC races
(2) doing just the FTP/VO2 cycle one time through (keep the 2.5/2.5s though, they are much better than 30/30)
(3) perhaps a wiki hack for sport-focused OS blocks?
Background - Mid 40's working mom with about 5-6 hours/week to train, typically at 5 am with high octane coffee, former Div1 runner (run speed is ancient history pre kids though:-( former age-group swimmer, no bike background
I also had a tough time somewhere around 16 weeks or so, felt burnt out like I could really use a break in there. Having said that, one thought might be to make an active rest/mid plan transition type week that is somewhat flexible so people could put it during a time when they'd have trouble getting the workouts anyways. Just a thought as I had a family trip in Feb that served that purpose for me. Came back feeling very guilty at the time but somewhat refreshed and got back to it upon my return.
Also, I often had a tough time with the Thursday morning bike intervals and would personally move them to Friday instead. This was a combination of the 3 consecutive days of hard training on insufficient sleep issue for me. Moving the 2nd bike to Friday meant back-to-back bike workouts (Saturday) then sunday run, but I'd get a bit more sleep so easier for me personally to handle. I generally liked the bike training in the methodical build of AT work. Made sense to me. I "liked" the Vo2 work on the bike too, I actually found it much easier mentally.
Re the run training, just my n=1, but even though I'm a strictly SC person, felt like I could use a bit more miles, maybe more miles on the Sunday run for example. Just before my stress fracture R had me doing a run hack of 1 mi AT run intervals at lunch time when possible. I got injured, so tough to say a verdict, but I saw some nice progress in my "splits" so would like to believe that I'd have gotten some extra Vdot bump from that. I have an extremely steep upwardly sloping Vdot curve though and it seems that the run load works for most, maybe I"m just the outlier who needs to put a bit more time in?
Thanks again!
I guess I am in the minority, since I liked the 20 week program. The longer I have to try and get faster the better. I was sorry to see it end! Thinking back I suppose I was about done with it by week 20, but 15 weeks would not be enough, given 52 weeks in a year. Perhaps give people an option of cutting it short if they want? Or instructions on how to modify it? Maybe the idea of a 1 week recovery - to be inserted as needed - would be the solution. Then people would not feel guilty about not following the plan, but would also be less likely to follow it into a big hole. But to do away with the full 20 week program for those who want to do it would be a shame.
Also, I remember many people posting how hard they were pushing every workout - always over 100% for the FTP intervals. Perhaps they have to dial it down just a bit (they workouts do say 95 - 100% after all, not 100 - 110 percent FTP every time!).
I loved using the trainer. Short, focused workouts with little overhead and no weather concerns. Put on your iPod with some good tunes and work!
Oct OS, which was my intro to EN, as well as training with pace (no power...yet)
I agree with many who noted a burnout around week 16 or so. Maybe an optional "rest week" in the middle?
Run - I loved it.
Bike - as a heart rate athlete, it took me awhile (about 4-5 workouts) to figure out the proper RPE for me to perform a successful 4 x 2.5 ON/OFF interval session. Too frequently I would work too hard and have nothing by the 2nd or 3rd interval. Perhaps some more information for heart rate athletes as to how to pace these. Given the short time and the fact that heart rate lags, its a tricky thing I believe, and I left those initial 4-5 workouts feeling pretty defeated/depressed, which I think contributed to the burn out.
Thanks!
2 Intermediate OS to my name.
The 2.5' VO2 intervals were definitely much tougher than the old 30"/30". I do like the idea of maybe building up to 2.5', but then again, it will always suck so is a build up going to work.
I will also throw my hat in with the OS may be too long, or could use some tweaking. A week "off", meaning no bikes above ABP and no runs above MP, might do the trick.
What about sport specific blocks in the OS? Like 4 bike sessions with one run session per week for 2 months. Then flip it. Then combine for the last month? Just throwing ideas out there.
Don't get me wrong, I know it works and have no real complaints, but a little variety might spice things up, especially for people with 2+ OS already.
Nov Int OS.
Liked the 2.5x2.5's more than the 30x30's They are tough, but hey I don't want an easy plan that doesn't make me stronger and mentally tougher. It comes in handy come race day. I would like some variety though. It seems like we were doing the same exact workouts some times. Even some slight mods might keep the burnout down. When I looked at one and said "Damn, we just did that one already this week" it didn't motivate me much. I got burned out/injured about week 16, so something to address that as others have said would be great. I like the break idea. For NOS peeps, Thanksgiving week and Christmas/NY was tough, maybe build in something around those. Agree to have a third set of eyes look over the plans. Seems like last year we had a mix up of the run stuff and got some advanced stuff in the INT plan and some INT stuff in the ADV plans. I think it would be good to add a maintenance day into the plan. I can add it, but if its in the plan and on my calendar it will be more likely to happen. Us over 50'ers need maintenance!! Overall, no real problems, just some tweaks to keep the boredom down. Having the groups to keep us honest was a big help. Thanks for continuously improving these plans and listening to our feedback. Funny that few businesses do that these days!
Looking forward to next Year's A race!
I can't complain. It is hard work. I does take some resolve to get through 20 weeks. It does pay off. After 2 OS passes, I exited both at 4.0 w/kg ratio. Hard to argue with those results.....Could make it shorter, more variety, etc....but, at the end of the day, you do the work, and you get the results...........I will be 44 in Oct....
Nothing new here, but I'll offer two specific suggestion for change, after going thru and watching others go thru for 2 years now.
There's no question that the OS group forums get reeeeally quiet past 14-16 weeks. I offer the following to think about: the first SIX (not 8) weeks for FTP work, next FOUR (not 6) as VO2. Then, following a transition week, 4 weeks of mixed work. OR, for those who like or need the longer program, just do two ten week OS back-to-back (6/4/6/4 FTP/VO2/FTP/VO2). Really, I think 4 weeks max for each, with a two week rolling intro at the start, is all that is needed to get the training effect, without getting stale and needing to switch systems being trained.
And, I'm one of those who alters the 2.5 min long VO2 work. Over a four week cycle, I build from 1:15 to 2:00. Once I get over 2:00, i have a hard time hitting the targets. I think a build in the length of each interval may be better than a build in the number of intervals, keeping total time at VO2 the same as in the current OS plan.
2. Along same lines, clearly separate 100 percent plus efforts from ft work. I seem to recall there are long ft intervals and "sprints" combined in the same wko.
Thanks for asking.
The amount of work is great. Proof is in the pudding. To me it's more a question of when, not how much.
2. Along same lines, clearly separate 100 percent plus efforts from ft work. I seem to recall there are long ft intervals and "sprints" combined in the same wko.
Thanks for asking.
The amount of work is great. Proof is in the pudding. To me it's more a question of when, not how much.
Overall love the plan, wife loved the plan (as she did not really notice my training time other than grunts from the basement). Love the no swimming. Love seeing friends putting in 6 days a week of longer workouts and me not.
Couple items:
1. I echo many of the above, maybe a little more variety, found myself at some points saying "Oh not this workout again" not from a hard work perspective but more from a been there, done that perspective.
2. Found twenty weeks a bit long, plus at twenty weeks if you schedule a early race you need to modify some part of the twenty weeks anyway if you begin in Jan or even Dec.
3. A little picky here but it would be nice to have the workout time listed equal the workout time required. Yeah, I know I have read all the stuff about why the numbers dont add up but shouldn't be that hard or time consuming to do. I may be a mental midget but for Type A personality types (most triathletes) if the plan says 90 minutes the workouts should equal 90 minutes. There was one workout I remember vividly that said 75 minuts and ended up being nearly two hours.
I think it is awesome you guys ask for feedback and then actually do something with it.
Thanks
Plus there was one point with the NOS where we realize that the Adv. and Int. runs were backwards so we were doing the wrong workouts for our level.
Hi!
1) a (near) 'burnout' at about 15 weeks in. I took my own downtime, I know better. It was difficult to want to get back into it after my self-imposed break, even knowing the end was only a few weeks away.
2) the vo2 max intervals, the 2.5/2.5s were too much for me. I always had to break them down into smaller increments. I don't mind doing the math to do so, just as long - like everything else - we still hit the totals.
This was my second OS (Int) and I can say the the first one I was much more dedicated as I had a few too many life issues this past OS so take my comments for what they are worth.
I like the 20 weeks OS even though the first year at about week 18 it was a struggle. As Chris M pointed out recovery is part of the OS and taking a day off or planning a transition week is something that I typically do to accommodate a ski trip or a sun holiday. I believe it was the OS before I joined that the plan went from 16 to 20 weeks just because this is the time to get the most speed.
I'd like to see the 20 week plan continue perhaps with an attached document or wiki on how to condense the OS to 14-16 weeks as per Al suggestions. This might be as ease as just cut telling people to cut weeks 7-8 out (maybe weeks 1-2 if coming in to the OS with some training) then do 4 weeks VO2, follow that with weeks 15 through 18, and if feeling strong continue to week 20.
As for the 2.5'/2.5''s I can do the short intense stuff much easier than the 15-20' FTP so I really like these.
Gordon
x2 for me on ALL of Jenn's comments (s/b/r/pointy end).
This was my first OS with EN, but my fourth year of training in this style. When I first started training for the HIM distance, a neighbor of mine mentored me along the way. After I joined EN, I found out he was an ENer back in the day, so he led me down the EN way from the beginning. Great stuff!
@Jenn - I can't find the info about building from the OS to an IM for the run! Where is that. I ended the OS with a half marathon and built up to that, so I guess that did what I needed anyway.