@Jenn - I can't find the info about building from the OS to an IM for the run! Where is that. I ended the OS with a half marathon and built up to that, so I guess that did what I needed anyway.
This was my first year in Da Haus and personally I loved every minute of the OS. That said, I had a 7 day long business trip at about week 13 where I could only run. Maybe that trip prevented me from ever feeling the burnout that everyone is talking about. Then again, maybe not. I do know that I never minded doing the same workouts repeatedly and never had a "oh not THAT workout again" feeling. Personally I enjoyed the consistency of repeating the same 2 or 3 x whatever sets because it allowed me to see how much I had improved since the last time.
I do agree with the comments about adding some more formal guidance for an early season HIM. I'll be doing all short course stuff in 2012 with the exception of starting the season with a HIM in May, and going through the 20 week OS + 12 week HIM will be much too long as I'd need to start the OS in Nov (which I don't even want to think about right now ). Perhaps add a 12 week OS plan? It's a tough one though, I fully understand that the entire EN training season and plans are based on the assumption of the athlete having gone through the full 20 week OS, and if you get too far away from that you risk mucking up the entire "fast before far" framework.
RnP - first OS and I did the NOV OS Intermediate plan, which we know had some advanced run wkos in there. I did all 20 weeks and listened to every podcast and thought the entire experience was great.
As a non-power biker at this time, I used my HR, RPM, and speed to craft my own Z1 to Z5 zones. Although not mentioned in any thread, wiki, or OS handbook that I know of, from my 40 TT test I used my LTR AVSPDto establish my Z4 and Z5 speeds in addition to my HR zones. For my Z3, I focused on RPM and the Z3 HR as determined from the test. I can't remember ever being in Z1 or Z2. This system worked for me, so maybe it's worth something to others.
On a personal note, the daily posting of wkos was a huge motivator. It pumped me up just knowing others were out there o'dark 30 in adverse weather knockin this stuff out. It also made me feel connected to others in my chosen hobby, which we all know is very cool.
3rd time through EN OS and 20 weeks was too long for this gal. I pulled the plug on my own 'cause I just couldn't keep my head in the game (I think the burn out was more mental than physical).
Also- I'm not sure if this belongs here or in the HIM/IM plan thread, so I'm sticking it here and you can deal with it wherever.
We observed a lot of folks suffer greatly in their attempts to go from 20 weeks of OS (no volume) to week 1 (out of 12) of the IM plan. It was the huge and sudden jump in volume with little ramp up that just seemed to kill a number of people. Jumping from OS to a HIM plan (or even doing a Half) really isn't so bad- it's just when you try doing that leap up to IM distance training that it gets ugly.
First full OS with EN, last year I was in the haus but only caught the tail end of the OS. Agree with the others, I lost focus somewhere towards the end, but really it's hard to blame that on the plan when the reality is that I was probably just plain old sick of winter and ready for it to end.
With these plans, you're trying to satisfy so many different types of athletes at different fitness and experience levels as well as different levels of expectations. It's near impossible to please everyone, and I don't think the "hack" modifiers to the plans were probably intended to be a long term strategy but honestly I kind of like them.
Base guidance is you don't need to swim over OS, you will get way more ROI from biking and running. Definitely agree, no complaints, however next year I've decided will be a major overhaul of my swim since I've now started to be top 10% in bike and run but am firmly in MOP or worse on the swim. No problem there though, swim hack is available, and I'm an adult, I can make my own decision to hire a swim coach to concentrate on form over the winter.
More blasphemous though is the topic of the run. My personal opinion, albeit based almost entirely off of anecdotal evidence from observing many athletes around me is that the the EN approach to OS running is great for some, maybe even most, but not ideal for everyone. Comparatively, I think the EN OS bike plans are hands down the way to go, I've observed significant more progress on the bike with way less time investment on basically the entire gauntlet of riders from beginner to advanced. On the run though, I think the high intensity approach requires a certain prerequisite endurance base in order to be successful, a few years of pounding the pavement to build up running mechanics efficiency, learn not how to hurt yourself, etc. I honestly worry about straight up beginners going out there and running threshold and VO2 max intervals on t-mills and tracks during the winter. I don't think any of us are naive here, there are clearly other approaches to training methodology that have some validity too them, and this is extremely blasphemous, but I think there is more merit to the concept of building the outseason base on the run than the bike.
I dunno, I don't think I'm going to get a lot of agreement on this one, but I think people without a somewhat sustained history of injury free running *could* benefit from an alternative OS running approach, like an EN triathlon Newbie, Beginner, Intermediate, Advanced setup where there was some hack or option to have something at least a little more similar to BarryP / base OS run build.
Ultimately, I have no intention of using such a hack if it existed, but this is a topic that I often hear passionate feedback from other athletes that I train with whom have witnessed my progress since joining EN, have tasted the kool aid, and in some instances have stumbled over our running approach and eventually reverted entirely to their old ways (including the bike).
Nemo's point about the transition to 12 week IM plan was what I experienced in my first OS two years ago. Coming from the beginner OS I should have probably been doing the 20 week or at least 16 weeks IM plan.
How much of this transition problem is created by bad athlele decisions like mine whating to hammer the OS more at the expense of the IM plan? Also I would suggest that trying to convince everyone to take a 2 week transition is difficult. I hear of many 1 week transitions and how many of those people are backing off enough during transition?
For me personally I think the solution for me at Lake Placid next year will be a 2 week transition after 20 week OS followed by 14 or 15 weeks IM plan (probably 14 as I will have a week off durnig the OS for vacation). This extra two weeks will allow me to adapt to the IM distance a little better than the 12 week plan.
To Trevor's comments you might have a point on the running injury. I know for me in my first year I started the Nov OS just biking, as I knew I could not handle all of the intensity. In addition I needed to lose some weight. In december I just started running a couple times a week no speed no goals. Then in January I started a Run OS (12-14 weeks IIRC), this worked out decently but I still have achillies issues more from my weight than the intensity.
Perhaps some guidance like a split OS would be useful just running for Nov/Dec and then pick up a 12 week OS from week 1.
Again this all comes down to people making the right choices for them based on honest evaluation which is sometimes hard to do when you want to get faster.
just to clarify a bit my earlier OS post - I think that 20 weeks is fine, and no swim OS was awesome as it is just such a time drain! Just that maybe something as simple as a note somewhere in the plan docs or wiki stating that taking a break somewhere roughly 2/3rds in if getting burnt-out, (I'm assuming that its not killing your whole season to do so) and agree some is mental, partially due to WORST winter ever! I came back from my forced break much stronger and mentally renewed so I think that it was the right thing to do, just felt really really guilty at the time. But in summary, at least for me being in point in my life where I really trulyl only have 5-6 hrs week for now and want to try to make the most of it, the OS plan gave me the guidance that I needed. I was doing similar stuff already but struglling with an n=1 on how exactly to put it together. A miscalculation and poof season is done:-( so really really like that the plans are constructed with feedback from lots of folks! I do think that you can be competive in the shorter stuff using the OS plan style training with limited time constraints, so may even want to market more to those types of folks. Thanks so much! the OS plan rocks!
To reinforce what Trevor said, altho logistically and technologically challenging for RnP ("we're coaches, not programmers"), a way to separate B/I/A bike from B/I/A run OS could be beneficial.
Most of us have trouble at the times when the workload (intensity/hours) change dramatically ("stress points"). Those who are very fit benefit, the other 80% of us, especially > 40 y.o., get hurt or fatigued. This may be a view from the back of the pack, but some suggestions to help:
1. Pre-OS ~2 weeks, as has been suggested, to get ready and prevent injury.
2. Stepwise increase of of the duration of VO2 time, not 2.5/2.5 right away (Al's idea), prevents injury and deep fatigue.
3. Two breaks, first at weeks 6-8 and again at 12-14. This may let us finish the entire OS schedule better by reducing cumulative fatigue. An option to continue training for the 4watts/kg group who may not feel the need to rest can also be offered, but not encouraged.
4. Ramp up the hours in the early portion of the IM plan, to avoid going from 6 hours OS to 13 hours of training per week.
Comments
@ Jim - Ha! Glad I wasn’t the only one that missed it! http://members.endurancenation.us/Resources/Wiki/tabid/108/Default.aspx?topic=Season+Planning+Toolkit
This was my first year in Da Haus and personally I loved every minute of the OS. That said, I had a 7 day long business trip at about week 13 where I could only run. Maybe that trip prevented me from ever feeling the burnout that everyone is talking about. Then again, maybe not. I do know that I never minded doing the same workouts repeatedly and never had a "oh not THAT workout again" feeling. Personally I enjoyed the consistency of repeating the same 2 or 3 x whatever sets because it allowed me to see how much I had improved since the last time.
I do agree with the comments about adding some more formal guidance for an early season HIM. I'll be doing all short course stuff in 2012 with the exception of starting the season with a HIM in May, and going through the 20 week OS + 12 week HIM will be much too long as I'd need to start the OS in Nov (which I don't even want to think about right now
RnP - first OS and I did the NOV OS Intermediate plan, which we know had some advanced run wkos in there. I did all 20 weeks and listened to every podcast and thought the entire experience was great.
As a non-power biker at this time, I used my HR, RPM, and speed to craft my own Z1 to Z5 zones. Although not mentioned in any thread, wiki, or OS handbook that I know of, from my 40 TT test I used my LTR AVSPDto establish my Z4 and Z5 speeds in addition to my HR zones. For my Z3, I focused on RPM and the Z3 HR as determined from the test. I can't remember ever being in Z1 or Z2. This system worked for me, so maybe it's worth something to others.
On a personal note, the daily posting of wkos was a huge motivator. It pumped me up just knowing others were out there o'dark 30 in adverse weather knockin this stuff out. It also made me feel connected to others in my chosen hobby, which we all know is very cool.
Thanks for asking!
Also- I'm not sure if this belongs here or in the HIM/IM plan thread, so I'm sticking it here and you can deal with it wherever.
We observed a lot of folks suffer greatly in their attempts to go from 20 weeks of OS (no volume) to week 1 (out of 12) of the IM plan. It was the huge and sudden jump in volume with little ramp up that just seemed to kill a number of people. Jumping from OS to a HIM plan (or even doing a Half) really isn't so bad- it's just when you try doing that leap up to IM distance training that it gets ugly.
First full OS with EN, last year I was in the haus but only caught the tail end of the OS. Agree with the others, I lost focus somewhere towards the end, but really it's hard to blame that on the plan when the reality is that I was probably just plain old sick of winter and ready for it to end.
With these plans, you're trying to satisfy so many different types of athletes at different fitness and experience levels as well as different levels of expectations. It's near impossible to please everyone, and I don't think the "hack" modifiers to the plans were probably intended to be a long term strategy but honestly I kind of like them.
Base guidance is you don't need to swim over OS, you will get way more ROI from biking and running. Definitely agree, no complaints, however next year I've decided will be a major overhaul of my swim since I've now started to be top 10% in bike and run but am firmly in MOP or worse on the swim. No problem there though, swim hack is available, and I'm an adult, I can make my own decision to hire a swim coach to concentrate on form over the winter.
More blasphemous though is the topic of the run. My personal opinion, albeit based almost entirely off of anecdotal evidence from observing many athletes around me is that the the EN approach to OS running is great for some, maybe even most, but not ideal for everyone. Comparatively, I think the EN OS bike plans are hands down the way to go, I've observed significant more progress on the bike with way less time investment on basically the entire gauntlet of riders from beginner to advanced. On the run though, I think the high intensity approach requires a certain prerequisite endurance base in order to be successful, a few years of pounding the pavement to build up running mechanics efficiency, learn not how to hurt yourself, etc. I honestly worry about straight up beginners going out there and running threshold and VO2 max intervals on t-mills and tracks during the winter. I don't think any of us are naive here, there are clearly other approaches to training methodology that have some validity too them, and this is extremely blasphemous, but I think there is more merit to the concept of building the outseason base on the run than the bike.
I dunno, I don't think I'm going to get a lot of agreement on this one, but I think people without a somewhat sustained history of injury free running *could* benefit from an alternative OS running approach, like an EN triathlon Newbie, Beginner, Intermediate, Advanced setup where there was some hack or option to have something at least a little more similar to BarryP / base OS run build.
Ultimately, I have no intention of using such a hack if it existed, but this is a topic that I often hear passionate feedback from other athletes that I train with whom have witnessed my progress since joining EN, have tasted the kool aid, and in some instances have stumbled over our running approach and eventually reverted entirely to their old ways (including the bike).
Nemo's point about the transition to 12 week IM plan was what I experienced in my first OS two years ago. Coming from the beginner OS I should have probably been doing the 20 week or at least 16 weeks IM plan.
How much of this transition problem is created by bad athlele decisions like mine whating to hammer the OS more at the expense of the IM plan? Also I would suggest that trying to convince everyone to take a 2 week transition is difficult. I hear of many 1 week transitions and how many of those people are backing off enough during transition?
For me personally I think the solution for me at Lake Placid next year will be a 2 week transition after 20 week OS followed by 14 or 15 weeks IM plan (probably 14 as I will have a week off durnig the OS for vacation). This extra two weeks will allow me to adapt to the IM distance a little better than the 12 week plan.
To Trevor's comments you might have a point on the running injury. I know for me in my first year I started the Nov OS just biking, as I knew I could not handle all of the intensity. In addition I needed to lose some weight. In december I just started running a couple times a week no speed no goals. Then in January I started a Run OS (12-14 weeks IIRC), this worked out decently but I still have achillies issues more from my weight than the intensity.
Perhaps some guidance like a split OS would be useful just running for Nov/Dec and then pick up a 12 week OS from week 1.
Again this all comes down to people making the right choices for them based on honest evaluation which is sometimes hard to do when you want to get faster.
Gordon
But in summary, at least for me being in point in my life where I really trulyl only have 5-6 hrs week for now and want to try to make the most of it, the OS plan gave me the guidance that I needed. I was doing similar stuff already but struglling with an n=1 on how exactly to put it together. A miscalculation and poof season is done:-( so really really like that the plans are constructed with feedback from lots of folks! I do think that you can be competive in the shorter stuff using the OS plan style training with limited time constraints, so may even want to market more to those types of folks.
Thanks so much! the OS plan rocks!
Feb OS, first year through EN, 6x IM finisher
Most of us have trouble at the times when the workload (intensity/hours) change dramatically ("stress points"). Those who are very fit benefit, the other 80% of us, especially > 40 y.o., get hurt or fatigued. This may be a view from the back of the pack, but some suggestions to help:
1. Pre-OS ~2 weeks, as has been suggested, to get ready and prevent injury.
2. Stepwise increase of of the duration of VO2 time, not 2.5/2.5 right away (Al's idea), prevents injury and deep fatigue.
3. Two breaks, first at weeks 6-8 and again at 12-14. This may let us finish the entire OS schedule better by reducing cumulative fatigue. An option to continue training for the 4watts/kg group who may not feel the need to rest can also be offered, but not encouraged.
4. Ramp up the hours in the early portion of the IM plan, to avoid going from 6 hours OS to 13 hours of training per week.
I love being on this team.
CAN YOU FEEL THESE PLANS GETTING BETTER ALREADY????
I CAN!!!
Thanks so much to all of you...RnI have our homework cut out for us, so stay tuned for updates coming in October 2011!!!
~ P