Open marathon to IM marathon: bridging the gap
I have been thinking of starting this thread since IM Louisville and a post by Chris G in William's thread finally got me off my butt to do it. members.endurancenation.us/Training...fault.aspx
What is it that allows some (Coach P for instance) to run the IM marathon faster than the calculators predict, or in a more general sense, what is it that allows one athlete to run to their potential while others do not, no matter the vDot? Is it simply mental toughness and a higher threshold for pain? Years and years building a huge run base? Many open marathons under the belt? Superior bike fitness?
I do know that the type of pain you feel late in the IM run is nothing ever encountered in training and I've been wondering if it would be worth it to try and come up with some sessions that would begin to mirror that. Say for instance some long runs after relatively short but hard bike rides like a 2 hour ride followed by a 2 hour run. The recovery cost would be high as would the possiblity of injury so they couldn't be frequent.
One thing I've noticed about some strong IM runners (non-pros) is that many seem to run an open marathon at some point during the year which I know is not recommended here but I'm starting to wonder if having those miles of pounding in your legs might be a good thing late in the IM run.
Comments
Here's my data/story. I have a pretty lowly vDot of 45. But I run the IM marathon right around 4:00 (4:02, 4:05, 4:06) in my last 3 outings (2008 x2 and 2011). I am running at 99% and 100% of predicted marathon time given that vDot. I have not run a stand alone marathon since 1991 when I ran 3:35 at Boston and 3:33 in NYC. So I am not one of those people who runs marathons every year just to keep the miles in their legs. Marathons are hard! (as I recall!)
Also, I do not feel any huge pain at all late in the IM run. I just keep plugging away. Really. If it was that bad, why would I do it? :-) Yes, I get tired. And yes, I am happy to be finished. But it is not torture and I am really not sure I even get to "the line".
I have been doing triathlon for a long time - 10 years now so maybe I have a lot of miles in my legs. But I have only been doing IM for 5 (with no IM in 2009 or 2010).
Maybe I ride too easily? That is possible and a sneaking suspicion I now have. Hope to get a power meter this year so that I can keep myself honest. I certainly don't ride too hard! Which I think can explain A LOT of under performance on the run.
I would like to run faster. So I guess this for me means just getting that 45 vDot to go up. I have no potential for getting more out of my 45! Let's see what can be done this OS.
I look forward to others' input!
---Ann.
My experience mirrors that of Ann. I've only done 5 stand-along marathons, and maybe 17 IMs. I didn't start to realise my potential in IM marathons until after I stopped doing the open ones 5+ years ago. My racing VDOT is probably 46 (I train at 49, and run half marathons at 46-7), and most of my recent IM times were 4:03-4:08. And, like Ann, I generally just adopt a pace out of T2 and stick with it thruout the race.
I can't explain why someone like Coach P would have success, cause he doesn't fit my theory, which is the smaller you are, the easier it is to run. Heat dissipation is easier and less mass to move. So an 80 kilo/46 VDOT guy will probably always get beat in an IM marathon by a 65 kilo/46 VDOT guy (me).
As to the mental aspect, while I acknowledge the diffculty of the work in any race, and that it seems to get more onerous as the race progresses, I don't interpret this as pain or suffering. That's not a conscious, power-of-positive-thinking deal with me, it's just that I am focused on the process of maintaining my running pace and the desire to meet my goals for the race. Those are what occupy my mind, not attention to what my thighs feel like or how hard I am breathing or sweating. I wish I knew how to teach that frame of mind to others, but it just sems to come naturally to me is all I can say.
What seems to trigger it in a triathlon is the following sequence of events: work the bike for 5.5-6 hours, and feel worse and worse towards the end. Then, about 30-60 minutes before the end of the bike, I have two thoughts in mind: keep the pace up and boy do my legs heavy and dead; how will I ever run. Then, a "breather" in T2, and grimly starting out on the run. I immediately notice that, contrary to my anticipation, I am actually runnng at a decent pace, and feel fresher as the first few miles go by. As long as I don't try any heroics in the first few miles, just let my body go at the pace it wants to go, I end up doing just fine. As the race progresses from there, it's just a question of remembering to maintain that pace, not losing focus on the target of keeping the momentum going. As I pass more people at the end, I seem to take their energy from them - I feel stronger as I see those around me going slower.
I am sure it can be trained and finely tuned as well...but genetics may be one of he biggest considerations - I am guessing here.
I guess I am saying if you want to get good at this game, you have to spend the time...looking at Al and Ann above, both have been doing long events for over a decade...it takes time and lots of attempts at the distance to get to really know yourself (and what you are capable of) and to build the requisite fitness...wish it was easier!
---Ann.
Chris pointed out to me that this guy who is a chemistry professor at UW Madison and a consistent KQ guy at that race is an old (excellent) rower (if that's the right noun). Something about that combination of strength and endurance...
My very small observation set of soccer and endurance sports is that it works mainly the other way... people who are good at endurance sport can run all day on the soccer pitch. (There is a small fast-twitch/slow-twitch disadvantage to doing endurance sport for your soccer, though, too.) Again, though, this is just my observation and not backed by real data.
That said, simply hearing that time and hours are part of the equation is good news for those of us who do not have that kind of background but see themselves staying ni the game for a while.
Regarding the mental aspect of racing, this appeared in yesterday's NY Times. It makes me want to get on my CompuTrainer and race against "metal man".
One again, Ann and I are twins in background. I swam with AG, HS, and collegte teams age 11-20 (not very fast and not as a freestyler, but I did all the work). During that key time for physical development, I'm sure I generated growth and changes in my heart and muscles which serve me well to this day. For insrtance, my resting pulse has always been in the low 40s, which is good for endurance acitivity; and I recover between intervals fairly quickly, which helps in the transitions between sports in triathlon.
chris:
i think the bridging of the gap, for age groupers, from open marathon to IM marathon is more an issue of time to train and a lot of discipline and motivation, rather than a genetic limit.
in other words, we'll all eventually hit our genetic limit, but very few of us ever get to that point unless you make it a life goal.
therefore, i think you have plenty of room to get your IM marathon closer to your open marathon.
it'll take practice and a lot of trial and error to sort out what's truly physical limiter for you, from what's more mental. a fun process nonetheless.
i would like to bridge the gap as well. my first step is to run an open marathon to see what i can do, now that i can get to top 1/3rd of finishers consistently in IM races. i have not done an open marathon in many years, so have no clue of the size of the gap that i need to bridge!!
good luck!
gh
Great stuff everybody, keep it coming.
I wish I could say I didn't feel any pain in the IM marathon. I felt good for maybe half of it, and continuing to the finish without walking (except the aid stations) required a level of mental toughness I didn't know I had. I realize now that I wasn't prepared for the physical suffering I would encounter nor did I have a mental plan to face it. I assumed based on my training paces and tests that I would just run whatever the calculators said I could.
With a vDot of 54 I ran 4:06:xx at IM Louisville and knowing that you guys and gals with vDots of 46 can run the same time tells me there's a "missing link" somewhere. That's the "bridge" I'm looking for and hope to cross at some point. I know it was hot (Matt S is in my head reminding me of that right now) but I still left some potential on the table. Could it be as simple as years and years in the sport running on tired legs, or is there some type of training one could do to better prepare for the late stages of an IM run?
It would be interesting to see the IM run times of you experienced finishers to gauge what kind of progress you've made over the years.
2010 october 1/2 marathon vdot 52.
2010 november IMAZ marathon time 3hrs 48minutes, flat bike and run.
mostly trail running in 2011, so no vdots other than a 5km vdot of 59 early in season, but i can run fast over short distance, so doesn't translate to long stuff...yet!
2011 IMCdA marathon time 3hrs 50minutes, hilly bike and run.
last known stand alone marathon 2007 was 3:35:xx.
i've done 7IMs, but didn't start trying to fast, for me, until 2008 and got a 4hr 07marathon in my first race with EN. That's about where you are now. i'd say with extra focus on bridging the gap and proper execution (know your limits on the bike) you'll get to 3:45-3:50 easy, without any extra training, just proper training and getting to know your current ability so you can execute well.
my next open marathon is oct9, 2011 and i'll build my bridge for 2012 off that.
gh
We know quite a bit about your recent triathlon hx but can you go back a few more years and give us somewhat of a chronological fitness hx. I am just curious what you have done before triathlon.
dg
Soccer from 5 through high school which was 1990. Early 90s-2000 I rock climbed about 200 days a year while running maybe 15mpw for fitness. I ran a couple of 10Ks and 5Ks on my 15mpw back then and my 10K PR is from 1995, a 39:55, and that's the last time I ran one. Tried hard to run a 19:00 5K and went 19:13 at age 26. This year at 39 I went 18:37!
In 2001 I tried to do a half marathon in under 1:30 and did a 1:30:09. I stopped running around then but was still climbing and started playing tennis several days a week and this is also when I got my first road bike. From 2002-2006 I rode about 5000 miles a year and did several hilly centuries in North Carolina and Georgia. Kids came along in 2006 and that was basically the end of my climbing career.
There were days when I would play two hours of tennis but still wanted to do more so I would go out and ride 30 miles and that was the beginning of the triathlon mindset. Sometimes I would switch it up and ride before the tennis. In 2008 I decided to enter a local sprint and won my age group on my road bike. I hadn't done a lap in a pool since about 93 and ran maybe 4 times to get ready for it. I did the same race in 2009 and again won my AG. About 2 weeks later I decided to try a HIM distance brick just to see if I could do it. I did and registered for IM Louisville 2010 shortly after that. I did a combination of my own plan and the Triathletes Training Bible and went 11:46 with basically no execution skills. I had no idea what I was doing. I got badly dehydrated and couldn't run after about 15 miles.
I joined EN in November 2010 and did the OS which ended with a new half marathon PR in March of 1:27:21. I did my first HIM in May of this year in Ohio, a hilly one called Little Smokies which is the HIM of the Ohio Triple T weekend. I came in 5th overall.
So basically, I've always been reasonably fit, but have never really done a large quantity of really hard training like we do here in EN. I am definitely slow twitch, which was even reflected in the kinds of rock climbs I was good at; long endurance climbs with relatively easy movements as opposed to short climbs with very difficult moves. When I look back at the intensity of the riding I did when I was training for all those centuries, they would be considered recovery rides now. I'm hoping this all means I have some untapped potential to uncover.
I also run well in the heat. Being tall and thin I think I am basically a human radiator. I dissipate heat quite well. My PB IM run was in Hawaii in humidity and 90ish degree temps. This years IMC was also hot.
And like Al, I also have a very low resting HR. This is hereditary - not because I am so especially fit. I have always had it and so did my dad and his siblings. In hospital for the birth of our first daughter, I was hooked up to a monitor and the nurses kept rushing in when the alarm kept going off when my HR went below 40. My husband had to tell them that was totally normal and I was fine! Ha! They eventually reset that thing!
---Ann.
Great question . Apparently I'm not the only one wondering about this.
Relative to my vdot and the heat app I did well in IMLOU marathon but not as well as I expected based on my training and 2010 results. I had pretty much assumed I may have over biked a bit (will never know PM broke with no data of IMLOU) but now I am rethinking that.
I think Al's explanation of the heat dissipation is biggest part of the missing link , followed by biking correctly , and then the tolerance to pain mind over matter late in the game. Ann's , Al's , and maybe to a lesser extent my results of our marathon times vs. our Vdot's support the heat dissipation theory. I read alot of Race Reports of people with much higher vdot's and slower marathons which also support this theory. Matt's heat app could reflect this option in the future with enough data collected on vdot vs bmi .
Funny I too come from a climbing background with virtually no endurance background at all with the exception of climbing endurance. I'm in my 3rd year of Tri/Endurance sports and last year was self coached for IMLOU and EN trained this year for IMLOU . I do think my climbing background gave me the mentality of never give up , climb until failure which is a huge benefit in IM.
Lastly as far as training. Last year while self coached I did all my long runs in the afternoon heat of the day based on that is when I would be racing. They were much slower and I did go 3 hours a couple times but I learned what it felt like to hit 20 miles in 90 degree's. I wanted to know , see , and feel what it would be like, I wanted to know and plan on laughing at the pain spitting in its face and know with all certainty that I could keep running. This year since I trained faster I was able to hit that 20 mile mark well below 3 hours but I still wanted to do it (once or twice just to know) and also kept the long runs in the afternoon's against the EN recommendations. This works out well for my schedule as well as a bit of heat acclimation which is hard to get in NH but also replicates time of day for the marathon.
out for RR IMFL Tim,
@Ann- your consistent IM marathon times that are so close to your open marathon times tell me you've got that missing link. Now I just need to figure out how to get it!
@Tim- I ran 20 miles in 2:32 twice during training with no leg fatigue. My last two miles during one of those runs were sub-7:00 and my legs felt great. This is the problem; in training you never get to the point of leg fatigue that comes in the IM marathon. This is why I'm thinking of doing some sessions next year that will try to simulate that fatigue to a point.
Unfortunately what I think is not sexy, easy, or fun; the good news is there is probably some untapped potential. You gotta spend more time doing the plans and the sport in general. While you are definitely taking the faster track than a lot of us took, it still takes some patience and discipline. There is something to be said for following the advice of a coach, a training plan, or a logical progression year in and year out.
Swim: you are great, it probably helps you are built like Phelps....I speak from experience.
Bike: you have a ton of miles under your belt times several year that helps as well.
Run: I am certainly don't think you need to go run a ton of marathons/ultras but you need to do some more focused running.
You will get there, be patient do the work, follow the plans focusify on occasion good things will happen.
I don't claim to be an expert but according to the Long Course Run Pack the best IM run pace you can hope for is 80% of your Threshold Pace - which is your Easy Pace. That said, I know there are peeps in the Haus that overachieve their IM run compared to their Vdot (eg Coach P).
FWIW, I also believe that it takes years of consistent training to achieve you potential. Important here is to remember that unless you change the training stress continually, you will plateau. So, the variables are frequency, volume, and intensity.
Peeps report good improvement in running from a dedicated block of say 50 days Daniels 5km to 15 km plan or similar (see this link http://members.endurancenation.us/Training/TrainingForums/tabid/101/aft/7122/Default.aspx#91035).
Cheers
Peter
---Ann.
How far? How many miles per week?
I went for a run yesterday and watch my HR sit at 128 beats per minute for 30 minutes...at 7:00/mile pace. Only after I started doing intervals (6:00/mile pace) did my HR get up to 148. Granted I am fatigued from training, but that HR is just stoopid low. I know for riding at IM pace, my HR sits at 115-125 for the first 3 hours before it starts to go up...got to think that's a strategic advantage somehow...
I think I have a better chance at improving my IM marathon than I do increasing my vDot significantly. Yes that HR is really low. 120 for 3 hours? That is a testament to awesome bike fitness.
@Patrick, my HR sits at 115-125 for the entire 6 hours I'm on the bike in an Ironman. This is upper zone 1/low zone 2 for me. Maybe there is something to this genetically low HR thing!
---Ann.
Yes I know what you mean. The easier the bike is, the more of your vDot you can use on the run. That's the goal for 2012!
117bpm for a 21mph century is ridiculous. You are a certified freak. What was your AP?
HRs are a highly individual thing. When I do RRs, my HR is usually 106-08; in an IM, 117-124. My LRP HR is 120-126. The difference between me and Patrick, I assume is the max HR. If I see anything over 161 these days, I look around for St Peter; I'm sure Coach P can go at least 15-20 bpm higher @ max effort. Theoretically, there is a correlation between resting HR and the size of one's heart - bigger heart, more blood pumped per beat, lower rate. Max HR, somewhat correlated to age, the drop may be the reason we lose speed before endurance.
Second, Chris, I'd suggest that the bigger factor is time and consistency, rather than one special workout that will leave you shelled, I can't imagine how one workout like you've suggested could stimulate some magical fitness adaptations that would 'close the gap.' the gap between optimum performance and actual performance usually has to do with how much work you've done, not just this training cycle/year, but over many years. As to how to change it, look at the training you're doing year round. Try to incorporate more 90 minute runs more frequently, so that your annual training volume goes up. Or throw in a 2nd run 1-2x per week. Things like that.